Disappointed with book 6? Spoilers ahead, fair warning.


Tyrant's Grasp

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Silver Crusade

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Quote:
I have no problem with a heroic sacrifice ending IF you get to take the bad guy with you.

And that is where our tastes differ.

I hate shoot the shaggy dog stories, but TG is only that if you discount everything the PCs did and accomplished.


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Rysky wrote:
And that is where our tastes differ.

Yeah we're always going to be at opposite ends of this one I think. Still, opinions are what keeps the board going, and for me learning.

I've only been with PF for just over two years and there's a lot I didn't know or realise until I came to the boards.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually I don't know the current adventure path. I've barely looked beyond Core Rulebook and bestiary for 2e.

And what did they accomplish that I was unable to refute? He's not dead,he's not trapped,all they accomplished was to take him out for 1d10 days, and deprive him of a weapon he generally avoided using.

Dark Archive

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Val'bryn2 wrote:

Actually I don't know the current adventure path. I've barely looked beyond Core Rulebook and bestiary for 2e.

And what did they accomplish that I was unable to refute? He's not dead,he's not trapped,all they accomplished was to take him out for 1d10 days, and deprive him of a weapon he generally avoided using.

Well if we don't count some of his highest ranking lieutenant dying and his loot getting destroyed, there was that having five uses of 5 mile radius nukes would have allowed him to destroy few more cities or countries. Plus you know, avoiding him nuking cathedral and stealing starstone to become a god and quote developers "pretty much turn whole planet into ustalav"(or something like that)

Like maybe in cosmic grand scheme of things Tar-Babhon the god wouldn't be that big deal more than any other new god, but Golarion's living population would be doomed

Silver Crusade

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CorvusMask wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:

Actually I don't know the current adventure path. I've barely looked beyond Core Rulebook and bestiary for 2e.

And what did they accomplish that I was unable to refute? He's not dead,he's not trapped,all they accomplished was to take him out for 1d10 days, and deprive him of a weapon he generally avoided using.

Well if we don't count some of his highest ranking lieutenant dying and his loot getting destroyed, there was that having five uses of 5 mile radius nukes would have allowed him to destroy few more cities or countries. Plus you know, avoiding him nuking cathedral and stealing starstone to become a god and quote developers "pretty much turn whole planet into ustalav"(or something like that)

Like maybe in cosmic grand scheme of things Tar-Babhon the god wouldn't be that big deal more than any other new god, but Golarion's living population would be doomed

The PCs also stop Tar-Baphon and his armies from slaughtering everyone in Absalom.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And what is stopping Tar-baphon from the Starstone? He isn't being kept from it by anything except space. All the pcs stopped was a flashy entrance.

The items are a hit, assuming they didn't survive. As for the lieutenants, at least one was a traitor, and, as I mentioned, he can create 12 devourers a day at no expense. He is probably very able to get reasonable replacements

Silver Crusade

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
And what is stopping Tar-baphon from the Starstone? He isn't being kept from it by anything except space. All the pcs stopped was a flashy entrance.

A flashy entrance that would have killed hundreds of thousands of people.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And how many died when he went off in the middle of the Absalom forces?

Dark Archive

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
And what is stopping Tar-baphon from the Starstone? He isn't being kept from it by anything except space. All the pcs stopped was a flashy entrance.

Because Tar-Babhon doesn't want to enter building trapped by his divine archnemesis :p

Like, Starstone test is two fold: The building created by god to prevent everyone reaching the real test easily and real test which happens when you touch the rock

On sidenote, if Tar-Babhon nuked the cathedral and destroyed Absalom, that would also crash the whole inner sea region's economy. There are lot of bad things resulting from having biggest trade center of region destroyed assuming they live long enough to suffer from his inevitable godhood in this scenario

Liberty's Edge

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
And how many died when he went off in the middle of the Absalom forces?

Vastly less because armies fielded by a city are a tiny fraction of the population of that city. Kinda definitionally.

If a large percentage of the city was gonna die, then the death of even the whole army was a much smaller number of people, and, assuming a volunteer army, of people who volunteered to die if necessary to keep the city safe.

That's just how populations and armies work.

Silver Crusade

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
And how many died when he went off in the middle of the Absalom forces?

Vastly less because armies fielded by a city are a tiny fraction of the population of that city. Kinda definitionally.

If a large percentage of the city was gonna die, then the death of even the whole army was a much smaller number of people, and, assuming a volunteer army, of people who volunteered to die if necessary to keep the city safe.

That's just how populations and armies work.

The book calls them a cohort, so I'm guessing around 500 soldiers.

That's bit smaller than 300,000.

They also split off into three to head off different attacks (If I'm reading that part right) so it's entirely likely the number is even less than that.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Vastly less because armies fielded by a city are a tiny fraction of the population of that city. Kinda definitionally.

If a large percentage of the city was gonna die, then the death of even the whole army was a much smaller number of people, and, assuming a volunteer army, of people who volunteered to die if necessary to keep the city safe.

That's just how populations and armies work.

But if it's a significant proportion of Absalom's trained professional military and its reserve, then that would be a very serious dent in the city's military capabilities. Armies don't just appear out of nowhere. You need an infrastructure, both human and physical and time to produce them.

Think of the importance of the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk in 1940, and how its destruction would have greatly weakened the UK.

Dark Archive

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pjrogers wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Vastly less because armies fielded by a city are a tiny fraction of the population of that city. Kinda definitionally.

If a large percentage of the city was gonna die, then the death of even the whole army was a much smaller number of people, and, assuming a volunteer army, of people who volunteered to die if necessary to keep the city safe.

That's just how populations and armies work.

But if it's a significant proportion of Absalom's trained professional military and its reserve, then that would be a very serious dent in the city's military capabilities. Armies don't just appear out of nowhere. You need an infrastructure, both human and physical and time to produce them.

Well yeah, it would make island more vulnerable to stuff like subterranean dinosaur invasion :p

Liberty's Edge

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pjrogers wrote:

But if it's a significant proportion of Absalom's trained professional military and its reserve, then that would be a very serious dent in the city's military capabilities. Armies don't just appear out of nowhere. You need an infrastructure, both human and physical and time to produce them.

Think of the importance of the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk in 1940, and how its destruction would have greatly weakened the UK.

Sure. Though as Rysky notes, the number killed is probably significantly lower (the size of the force actually mentioned in proximity to this in the AP is 1,100 soldiers).

And as awful as the destruction of an army is, it's still preferable to the death of a city (or even a large portion of one).

Silver Crusade

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Absalom population: 303,900 permanent residents.

Since it's a major shipping and trading center the number of people in the city is MUCH higher than that.

Silver Crusade

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There were over 1000 in the immediate vicinity of the Sun Scarab Keep. For it to be the staging ground, it isn't front lines, so we probably have more friendly deaths than unfriendly. Plus this isn't LotR, Tar-baphon's troops aren't dropping because he does. Which means that the weakened defenders are facing a still substantial undead army, and what happens to the civilians afterward? There's no Geneva Convention in Golarion

The figure of 1100 was gathered for a specific mission. I highly doubt those were the only soldiers on a major front of the war.

Silver Crusade

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In settings with wizards with Fireball they tend not to have large masses of armies congregated all together like.

The undead probably splintered and tailed it out of there once they realized Baphy was gone. Or got called back.


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Because I'm into military and security stuff, I think I'll try to do a close reading of the AP material and anything else from Paizo that looks relevant when I get home this evening.

My Moonscar players would probably rather I do this than spend the time thinking new and improved tactics for the various bosses they're going to face on Sunday.

Silver Crusade

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I agree on the standard way battles should be conducted in settings with fireball, but from what I've seen of massed battle in Pathfinder and the editions of D&D I've played, it's usually done as if just medieval tech was available, no spells. By rights, Pathfinder cultures should have developed beyond armies, instead going for squad based skirmish warfare.

Silver Crusade

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
I agree on the standard way battles should be conducted in settings with fireball, but from what I've seen of massed battle in Pathfinder and the editions of D&D I've played, it's usually done as if just medieval tech was available, no spells. By rights, Pathfinder cultures should have developed beyond armies, instead going for squad based skirmish warfare.

They do for the most part, sometimes though squads are really big.

Liberty's Edge

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
I agree on the standard way battles should be conducted in settings with fireball, but from what I've seen of massed battle in Pathfinder and the editions of D&D I've played, it's usually done as if just medieval tech was available, no spells. By rights, Pathfinder cultures should have developed beyond armies, instead going for squad based skirmish warfare.

I mean...are you sure they haven't? The Ironfang Invasion is the closest to a 'War' AP we've had and involves a lot more skirmish style stuff with small units than it does big open-field battles.

Some of that you can chalk up to it being Nirmathas, but only some of it, and the battle on Triaxius in Reign of Winter does much the same. On a meta level this is obviously also because it's easier for PCs to interact with such things, but all the evidence we actually have of war in Golarion supports squad based skirmishing as very much the norm.

In fact, all the larger battles I can think of in any Golarion adventure are specifically attacks on fortified positions, which you can't leave behind you regardless of your tactical preferences.

So...what are you basing this assumption on, exactly?

Silver Crusade

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The fact that armies are being fielded. Squads are not really big, at biggest they MIGHT make 2 dozen.

Silver Crusade

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What do you mean?

Liberty's Edge

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
The fact that armies are being fielded. Squads are not really big, at biggest they MIGHT make 2 dozen.

We field armies now, despite mostly relying on squad tactics to do a lot of things. We fielded large armies in World War 2, despite artillery, bombers, and similar things being available.

Really, I'm not sure what train of logic you're following, here.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd like to know what logic y'all are following that says the 1100 who were part of this specific mission were the only forces within 5 miles of the staging point for a direct assault on the Whispering Tyrant.

Silver Crusade

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It doesn't mention more soldiers coming in during part 3, and 5 miles is nearby enough that they could feasibly join up if alerted.

The cohort the PCs meet actually split up to head off a possible pincer maneuver. The rest of the Guard was most likely staying actually within Absalom to prepare for a siege.


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Serious question, do a lot of people's PC's not think?

I mean, they KNOW TB is a) a Lich (and the implied return from phylactery effect), and b) that they don't have said phylactery (and that no one has any idea of even where it is)...

So just chopping him is what's known as a very short term solution at best...

Call it metagaming if you want, but PC's in a campaign I play in ( and I would expect the same if I was GM'ing), would be spending considerable amounts of time trying to figure out how & preparing to, wreck TB's day much more permanently. There are many rulebook options to do so - just in the CRB : Trap the Soul, Temporal Stasis, Imprisonment, Polymorph Any Object...

I suspect that in any concluding encounter, I don't expect PC's to be reducing TB below 1/2 his HP, but I expect him to be long term F'ed up.

Maybe it's me or my players...

Liberty's Edge

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
I'd like to know what logic y'all are following that says the 1100 who were part of this specific mission were the only forces within 5 miles of the staging point for a direct assault on the Whispering Tyrant.

I actually didn't assume that, though Rysky's point just above is a possibility as to why there wouldn't be.

What I noted that those were the only ones explicitly mentioned, and thinking about it, it seems unlikely given the nature of combat displayed in Golarion that they'd be too bunched up. It might be more than the 1100, but I'd be shocked if it's the whole army (since at least a large percentage is certainly in the city).

And losing part of an army is much better than losing a large percentage of a whole city, which was the initial point I was making.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I get it in a way, it's more deterrent than dealing with the problem. Last time he did something in this country, he got chopped up, so go where the heroes aren't as effective.

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