Anyone else dying to see books beyond the Inner Sea?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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vagrant-poet wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
political views have no real place anywhere.... especially in politics

I always think this is so funny.

Just to be generous, you could mean political as pertaining to how a governing entity should set it's laws and budgets, or political in a more relaxed sense meaning, like, literally opinions people have about the world.

The ideas that are being discussed are whether it's better to write adventures in regions outside of the Inner Sea with the PCs as visitors from the Inner Sea as default assumption, or as local PCs from the region in questions. Thus clearly the latter.

There are lots of reasons of convenience or comfort that the former is useful, as a touchstone, requiring almost no extra information to be learned, and as a trope.

But the trope's roots are in colonial privilege, and the extra effort required would both benefit players and GMs and make the game more accepting and less infused with the occasionally subtle toxicities of colonialism, and the erasure of non-White people it tends to entail.

So basically, this discussion literally belongs here, it's not politics anymore or less than any other discussion of interpreting Paizo products outside of maybe a treatise on governance in Taldor.

What peculiar outburst.

Are you suggesting then that everyone who visits another country is doing so out of colonial privilege, not tourism, not expanding their minds or any other reason that could equally apply to foreign adventurers, but because they think they should own it.


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All creative work is political. Either you're presenting something uncritically implicitly saying "this is fine and normal" or you're presenting something critically, which points to flaws in it, and possibly suggesting ways to fix those flaws.

There's no "no politics" there's just "people who don't see it yet."


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NotBothered wrote:


What peculiar outburst.

Oh my. You were very serious in the other thread about how you weren't bothered by anything other people think.

Why then go call a post in another unrelated thread an outburst? Very curious choice of language and timing. Interesting.

No worries mate, I won't be interacting with you any further. I'm not interested in such fraught interaction.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Berhagen wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Berhagen wrote:
I would love to have a campaign in vudra, but fine with a fish out of water approach: I like campaigns where the character and players discover a new setting at the same time.

That presumes that the setting isn't cobbled together out of the shallowest possible stereotypes. All players would be familiar with those - some might be hurt by them.

But even if the setting isn't composed of the shallowest possible stereotypes, it is still better served by a premise other tha a fish out of water. Because in that premise it will necessarily be presented as exotic and foreign, when it's supposed to be a real, grounded place where people live.

Since it was mentioned, Jade Regent is how to do this wrong.

You assume that something can’t be simultaneously exotic and a real grounded place were people live? Have you travelled much? From my experience you can easily have both....
Your experience as an outsider whose country has pre-exoticized those places and in most cases colonized them?

Well some of the assumption is that you are an outsider if you travel there....(and in a fish out of water scenario) so that applies. Also something being exotic may be affected by stories, but it is also just an effect of being in a situation where many of your base (cultural) assumptions don’t apply and it is good that it makes you think about your own assumptions.

Also I find it weird to imply tourism is done from a colonial background? So Chinese and Japanese people visiting the west are doing that as well? Also I am relatively certain my country had little influence on the likes of Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan etc.

Shadow Lodge

Berhagen wrote:

Also I find it weird to imply tourism is done from a colonial background? So Chinese and Japanese people visiting the west are doing that as well? Also I am relatively certain my country had little influence on the likes of Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan etc.

Not knowing which country you're from makes rebutting this assertion difficult, but I'll hazard a guess from your username that you're from Germany. If that is indeed the case you couldn't be wronger about Syria, given the history of the Baghdad Railway, the Sinai Campaign, and the clash with British imperialism over Arab Ottoman territories. Nor is that history buried - its legacy ripples down into contemporary refugee policy and the support of Turkey against the Assad government and the SDF.

Germany also sponsored revolts in Russian Central Asia, albeit without much success. They did shape the Soviet and thus post-Soviet arrangement in the region.

Bringing it back around, the exotic Orient is very much a thing in these stories, as exemplified in spectacles from the Great Exposition of the mid-nineteenth century to the tour of King Tut's paraphernalia in the 90s.

(Didn't notice your reference to them before, but Japan was a bona fide colonial empire until the American occupation, and anyone who doesn't appreciate the growth of Chinese imperialism in Asia [belt and road] and Africa is not paying attention.)


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Well the username is a holdover from an ancient pbp game, so that doesn’t mean much (so I am not German). As a Dutch person I agree we were far not great either in many respects (However that applies to almost any historical nation or tribe, by current standards most were quite awful...... ). However the Netherlands did not have much influence on the Middle East.

Also while China and Japan were colonial nations (China has been for many centuries been conquering/colonizing) they don’t visit the Netherlands because they originally colonized the Netherlands.. Attributing all travel and tourism to post colonialism is (to me) a very negative way of looking at the world.

But getting back to the original topic, I think there is room for stories of outsiders in non-western (based) settings in a game, as long as the place and situation are appropriately considered (by writer and GM in particular).


Totally off topic, for which I apologise, but shout out to Berhagen for coming from the Netherlands. Without doubt my favourite country I've ever visited.

Once again sorry for the off topic

Shadow Lodge

Berhagen wrote:
Attributing all travel and tourism to post colonialism is (to me) a very negative way of looking at the world.

A view being negative does not necessarily make it wrong. Also, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that 1) all framings of foreign countries today are necessarily tainted by colonialism, and additionally 2) that there was a strong likelihood that a tourist-exporting country would have been a colonial power while tourist-importing countries were likely to have been colonies. I did not say that all international travel took place because of colonialism.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Berhagen wrote:
Attributing all travel and tourism to post colonialism is (to me) a very negative way of looking at the world.
A view being negative does not necessarily make it wrong. Also, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that 1) all framings of foreign countries today are necessarily tainted by colonialism, and additionally 2) that there was a strong likelihood that a tourist-exporting country would have been a colonial power while tourist-importing countries were likely to have been colonies. I did not say that all international travel took place because of colonialism.

Well actually you did say “colonized them” but anyway, not so relevant to the real discussion on how “non inner sea” cultures could be explored in APs or otherwise.


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I'd love to see a Ramayana-esque epic adventure in Vudra, heavily involving rakshasas and asuras as antagonists. Although there were quite a lot of good (or at least leaning to neutral) rakshasas in Hindu epics as well, which I'm not sure is easy to pull off in Golarion, where outsiders are pretty hard-coded in their alignment.


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Rysky wrote:
keftiu wrote:

To get back away from this particular mire: I would adore a Vidrian-based AP that focused on hunting escaped colonial authority figures (like those of various trading companies, or the Order of the Coil), before transitioning to a larger threat that skewed more high-level - but with a theme throughout of “this is how the people of this region can tackle a problem.”

And you could do so, so much with an Arcadia AP or three.

I would love this, oh so much.

I might be running something like this soon, and part of me is very, very tempted to have another Hellknight Order declare them renegades and aid in hunting them down, leading to a very uncomfortable team-up - but also maybe some new native Mwangi recruits into the Hellknights.


Zum-Graat wrote:
I'd love to see a Ramayana-esque epic adventure in Vudra, heavily involving rakshasas and asuras as antagonists. Although there were quite a lot of good (or at least leaning to neutral) rakshasas in Hindu epics as well, which I'm not sure is easy to pull off in Golarion, where outsiders are pretty hard-coded in their alignment.

Would love that too.....


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Zum-Graat wrote:
I'd love to see a Ramayana-esque epic adventure in Vudra, heavily involving rakshasas and asuras as antagonists. Although there were quite a lot of good (or at least leaning to neutral) rakshasas in Hindu epics as well, which I'm not sure is easy to pull off in Golarion, where outsiders are pretty hard-coded in their alignment.

Ah, but they're native outsiders. In PF1 they didn't even have the evil subtype (at least by my quick lookup)


Zum-Graat wrote:
I'd love to see a Ramayana-esque epic adventure in Vudra, heavily involving rakshasas and asuras as antagonists. Although there were quite a lot of good (or at least leaning to neutral) rakshasas in Hindu epics as well, which I'm not sure is easy to pull off in Golarion, where outsiders are pretty hard-coded in their alignment.

That would be pretty cool.

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There's a very good conversation and discussion to be had on the topic of moving away from outsider & colonialist perspectives on regions in Golarion, but the thread seems to have really gotten off to a rough start. I'm going to close the thread for a bit and consult on how best to proceed with some of the other folks who assist with moderation.

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