Disappointed with book 6? Spoilers ahead, fair warning.


Tyrant's Grasp

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Silver Crusade

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@Pad, Interesting ideas, but good luck getting those to stick with a Mythic character.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

All these claims and accusations of the PCs' sacrifice being worthless is reliant on incomplete information. Moreso, they are based on 2nd edition information.

Until we have specific information about Tar-Baphon and what happened at the end of TG, we honestly cannot claim that the sacrifice was in vain.

At the VERY least, Tar-Baphon has LOST HIS MYTHIC ABILITIES.

I can state this reliably: Golarion has shifted to a 2nd edition rules setting and Mythic Adventures is not a part of the rules. Thus we have no write-up of Tar-Baphon's stats and should not assume that the Whispering Tyrant is as powerful as he was. In fact, given that Wizards were given an overall weakening in upper-level power (while strengthening them at lower levels and improving their extra-low-level versatility), Tar-Baphon's powers have been cut in half in all likelihood.

High Intelligence no longer provides bonus spells. While Tar-Baphon likely has 10th level spells and knows Rituals that mere mortals have no idea exist, he's not going to be spamming Mythic Wish anytime soon, or a half-dozen 9th level spells.

So the PCs won, at dreadful cost. Tar-Baphon has lost his most powerful weapon. His powers have diminished (as has the powers of most spellcasters in Golarion). He is still a significant threat, but not the demigod he once was. And he'll remain as such until we the player base get a new write-up on his abilities and stats.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hadn't thought of that, done pulled a Karsus and broke the dang system.


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Rysky wrote:
@Pad, Interesting ideas, but good luck getting those to stick with a Mythic character.

Did I say anything about easy?

I mean the classical solutions for Liches whose Phylactery isn't known/available are known (in a metagame sense).


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Tangent101 wrote:

At the VERY least, Tar-Baphon has LOST HIS MYTHIC ABILITIES.

I can state this reliably: Golarion has shifted to a 2nd edition rules setting and Mythic Adventures is not a part of the rules. Thus we have no write-up of Tar-Baphon's stats and should not assume that the Whispering Tyrant is as powerful as he was. In fact, given that Wizards were given an overall weakening in upper-level power (while strengthening them at lower levels and improving their extra-low-level versatility), Tar-Baphon's powers have been cut in half in all likelihood.

That's true of all spellcasters. The entire definition of spellcaster has changed for everyone, so Tar-Baphon should be proportionally powerful to other spellcasters. And do we need mythic rules when all you need to make the Lich Wizard unstoppable is to make him Level 30? (Would they make him level 30 when 25 is the demon lord guy, Treerazor? /e shrug, I dunno man. I thought Unseen Servant would last longer than 10 minutes.)

I mean, they made a CR 25 creature in the Bestiary, and its only the first one printed. We'll see more high level monsters of which Tar-Baphon is undoubtedly one of.


Kasoh wrote:
I mean, they made a CR 25 creature in the Bestiary, and its only the first one printed. We'll see more high level monsters of which Tar-Baphon is undoubtedly one of.

Lot's I expect, and I should imagine there will be some discussion about if/how to introduce some equivalent to mythic in 2e, and if they decide they will, you may not see the Tyrant's new stats until then.

Also what's the CR 25 monster please? And was it that good in 1st ed? (I didn't move to 2e so I'm only looking at getting lore books now)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Treerazor

Silver Crusade

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That's a fair point regarding the loss of power, you can't claim that the pcs weakened Tar-baphon whem Sorshen also lost 10 mythic tiers when she sat out of the battle.


Rysky wrote:
Treerazor

Thank you.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Val'bryn2 wrote:
That's a fair point regarding the loss of power, you can't claim that the pcs weakened Tar-baphon whem Sorshen also lost 10 mythic tiers when she sat out of the battle.

Tangent, I think it's mentioned her time in stasis weakened her.

Silver Crusade

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pjrogers wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Vastly less because armies fielded by a city are a tiny fraction of the population of that city. Kinda definitionally.

If a large percentage of the city was gonna die, then the death of even the whole army was a much smaller number of people, and, assuming a volunteer army, of people who volunteered to die if necessary to keep the city safe.

That's just how populations and armies work.

But if it's a significant proportion of Absalom's trained professional military and its reserve, then that would be a very serious dent in the city's military capabilities. Armies don't just appear out of nowhere. You need an infrastructure, both human and physical and time to produce them.

Think of the importance of the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk in 1940, and how its destruction would have greatly weakened the UK.

While you're right that they don't come out of nowhere, Absalom did indeed get much needed reinforcements, as the entire remnants of Last Wall's military might has relocated there.


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Okay, I’ve been debating posting here for a while—I haven’t wanted to because this thread is going a direction I don’t care for (I’m reading a lot of these posts as aggressive and confrontational—which I don’t like—but I may be misinterpreting things because trying to decipher emotions over text/posting is difficult), but I’m just going to make this one post to leave here then I’m out—respond to what I say all you like, but I won’t respond because I’m not going to participate in a confrontational situation—even one I only perceive as one—any more than this.

Tangent101 wrote:

At the VERY least, Tar-Baphon has LOST HIS MYTHIC ABILITIES.

I can state this reliably: Golarion has shifted to a 2nd edition rules setting and Mythic Adventures is not a part of the rules.

(I may be misremembering, so don’t quote me on this) I think Jason Bulmahn said that he would like to see mythic—or mythic-like—rules be introduced to 2e, so I don’t think the Tyrant still being mythic is out of the question.

Val'bryn2 wrote:
And what is stopping Tar-baphon from the Starstone? He isn't being kept from it by anything except space. All the pcs stopped was a flashy entrance.

The Pathfinder Society.

During the Tyrant’s siege on Absalom, the Pathfinder Society has sent many—if not the majority—of their agents to the-crater-formerly-known-as-Gallowspire in order to disrupt a necromantic ritual , as detailed in 10-98 Siege of Gallowspire (not sure on the specifics of the ritual as I played, not GMed; likely to get more reinforcements for the Tyrant). So many agents were sent there that it was an in-game mechanic for the special—bringing more, lower-leveled PCs to aid in the overall mission. And not only that, but those few Pathfinders who remain in Absalom are vulnerable and have closed the doors to the Grand Lodge because of a situation going on inside (not stating any more than that; play 10-22 Passing the Torch Part 1 and 10-23 Passing the Torch Part 2 for more).

So the Society—a powerful organization that calls Absalom home—is effectively gone from the City at the Center of the World in a dire time, leaving fewer troops to defend the city. The PCs (of Tyrant’s Grasp) destroy the Tyrant temporarily, sure, but even the bare minimum on that 1d10 days of reforming at his phylactery is enough for the Society to quell the situations they are involved in and mass-teleport (whether by multiple castings, teleportation circles, etc.) back to Absalom to defend the city.

AND I’m more than certain that the Tyrant would be hesitant to continue a siege with the Society defending Absalom, because the sheer number of casters capable of casting 9th level spells being Seekers of the Society far outweigh the number of just as powerful individuals in most countries! I know because there’s actually two scenarios that are written with such characters in mind: the Passing the Torch series. Not to mention the number of artifacts the Society has in reserve or the far-reaching power the organization has.

And considering that it would likely take a day or more for the Tyrant to recover from his destruction—getting back his gear, commanding the undead that he lost control over, etc.—that’s just more time for the Society to pool its resources into defending Absalom.

Yes, those things aren’t written into the AP, which is a shame, but this is canonically what is going on at the same time as the Whispering Tyrant’s siege, so “a few days” is actually quite devastating to his plan.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

She's listed as Enchanter 20/Trickster 10 in the AP, so didn't weaken much.

Liberty's Edge

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Both Sorshen and Tar-Baphon have maintained their CR/Level (26 for Tar Baphon, 27 for Sorshen) in the edition change. James Jacobs has said as much (and, as creative director, he'd know).

The form that this absurd power takes may change with the system, but they have not meaningfully lost power in that sense.

Which does not, of course, mean that Tar-Baphon hasn't lost some slightly less definable power. His rules have certainly changed, so he could easily have lost something fundamental that doesn't hit his CR, like his ability to control a truly unlimited number of undead, or to create them for free.

Having lost those would definitely put a damper on his world conquest plans even if he's as badass in a straight fight as he ever was.

All this is, of course, speculative...but something sure is keeping him from going back on the warpath immediately.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KingTreyIII wrote:

The Pathfinder Society.

During the Tyrant’s siege on Absalom, the Pathfinder Society has sent many—if not the majority—of their agents to the-crater-formerly-known-as-Gallowspire in order to disrupt a necromantic ritual , as detailed in 10-98 Siege of Gallowspire (not sure on the specifics of the ritual as I played, not GMed; likely to get more reinforcements for the Tyrant). So many agents were sent there that it was an in-game mechanic for the special—bringing more, lower-leveled PCs to aid in the overall mission. And not only that, but those few Pathfinders who remain in Absalom are vulnerable and have closed the doors to the Grand Lodge because of a situation going on inside (not stating any more than that;...

Sorry if some of my posts seemed confrontational, as I previously mentioned I love lively debate, which this has been. And true, I have discounted the Pathfinder Society, because I believe that, not counting the characters from PFS, most of the higher ups who have stats tend to be in the level 7-11 range, the Lodge Captains up to Masters of Spells, Scrolls, and Blades. The Decemvirate don't count, because it's equally likely for them to be an archwizard or demigod as it is for them to be 2 goblins on each other's shoulders

Silver Crusade

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But you can't discount the PC's from PFS, as all of them do exist within canon Golarion.


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NotBothered wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Treerazor
Thank you.

It's Treerazer, as in he razes trees.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Val'bryn2 wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:

The Pathfinder Society.

During the Tyrant’s siege on Absalom, the Pathfinder Society has sent many—if not the majority—of their agents to the-crater-formerly-known-as-Gallowspire in order to disrupt a necromantic ritual , as detailed in 10-98 Siege of Gallowspire (not sure on the specifics of the ritual as I played, not GMed; likely to get more reinforcements for the Tyrant). So many agents were sent there that it was an in-game mechanic for the special—bringing more, lower-leveled PCs to aid in the overall mission. And not only that, but those few Pathfinders who remain in Absalom are vulnerable and have closed the doors to the Grand Lodge because of a situation going on inside (not stating any more than that;...

Sorry if some of my posts seemed confrontational, as I previously mentioned I love lively debate, which this has been. And true, I have discounted the Pathfinder Society, because I believe that, not counting the characters from PFS, most of the higher ups who have stats tend to be in the level 7-11 range, the Lodge Captains up to Masters of Spells, Scrolls, and Blades. The Decemvirate don't count, because it's equally likely for them to be an archwizard or demigod as it is for them to be 2 goblins on each other's shoulders

No worries, I can get the same way and a lot more of us do as well. We get passionate about a subject and just jump on it and have fun debating without necessarily thinking of how what we say may sound. I do know I posted one thing and within seconds deleted it as I realized I'd said something that probably would be taken wrong.

That's one of the problems with the Internet, and to be honest the best posts are those written down, saved as a document, and returned to around 30 minutes later to see how it reads.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How many times did he use it on Lastwall? That matters, because he only has 11 uses, as there are only 11 shards of the shield. 10 if we discount the one in his hand.

Silver Crusade

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
How many times did he use it on Lastwall? That matters, because he only has 11 uses, as there are only 11 shards of the shield. 10 if we discount the one in his hand.

1. Roslar's Coffer

2. Vigil
3. Gallowspire
4. Renchurch (Arazni)
5. Hammerrock
6. Outside Absalom


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So he uses up more than half of the total possible shots in the course of the AP. Vigil and Gallowspire, I get. The last one is sort of load-bearing, plotwise. But yeah, I definitely think he was a little trigger-happy with a weapon with such a finite capacity.

Liberty's Edge

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Everyone should always bear in mind The Whispering Tyrant's Wisdom score. A mighty 14 he has, while playing in the leagues of creatures who tend towards scores in the 20s at a minimum. Baphomet, a character who has a low Wisdom by deific standards (he's tied for lowest Wisdom among Demon Lords) that causes him some serious hardship in WotR has a 29 and more than double that of Tar-Baphon.

Doing reckless and poorly thought out things is not out of character for The Whispering Tyrant. Quite the opposite.

Dark Archive

Yeaah, wisdom was his dumb stat


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So, I reread the relevant parts of Midwives of Death, poked about in the Guide to Absalom, and generally amused myself for a couple of hours so that I now feel able to make the following observations and speculative points.

It's actually the Osirian/Dwarf contingent that gets destroyed by the radiant fire explosion at the end of the AP. There's no evidence that it significantly affected Absalom's forces. In fact, the Captain (commander) of the First Guard is explicitly stated to have survived the battle.

The friendly military leaders encountered by the PCs seem to have a good sense of the destructive potential of the radiant fire. I suspect they're smart enough to keep their three major formations - Eastern Wing composed of Osirian/Dwarven forces and the Center and Western Wings composed of the First Guard - sufficiently separated so that a radiant fire attack on one would not affect the other two.

Aside from the "1,100 seasoned Garundi and dwarven troops," I couldn't find any specific numbers in regards to troops, though the initial force sent to Absalom is described as "thousands of undead troops" early in book 6.

As a semi-arbitrary way to estimate the size of the First Guard, I looked at the armies of the War of the Roses. Around fifty thousand soldiers fought at the Battle of Towton in 1461 when England had a population of approximately two million. That's 2.5% of the total population mobilized in the two major field armies. Applying that to Absalom's population of 300,000 would give it a fully mobilized field army of 7,500. Let's say 6,500 First Guard and 1,000 Kortos Cavalry, and the later would probably be patrolling elsewhere on the island. These are the only two major field army-esque formations that I could identify. Above and beyond this 7,500 would be Starwatch and various district guards actually defending the walls of the city.

So, we have two Wings of First Guard with a total of 6,500 troops and a third Wing, the Eastern one, with 1,100 Osirian and Dwarven troops. While the AP doesn’t say so, it would make sense for the Eastern Wing to be the multinational one as it would be odd if only Osirian and the Five Kingdoms sent troops to Abasalom in the face of such a huge regional threat. There could thus be another 2,000 or so troops from other nearby Inner Sea countries such as Andoran, Taldor, etc, and if so, they would probably also be in the blast radius of that last radiant fire.

Anyhows, I think this is a plausible scenario – a total of 9-10,000 friendly troops engaged with TB’s army of “thousands of undead” and very possibly about one third of those, mainly non-Absalom forces, perishing when the radiant fire goes off.

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So it's a "win" that you take, at max, 4 uses from his weapon. Still has Mythic Wish to break into the Starstone Cathedral, still a mythic lich. And, apparently, since he has been confirmed to still be CR 26,he was not appreciably weakened by nuking himself.

Dark Archive

Do realize that gods triumph Mythic Wish. Presumably Aroden would have wanted people to actually go through the anti magic fields and whatever other traps there are inside it(apparently magic stops working correctly inside Cathedral and its capable of changing its layout so it probably screws around with space time as well)

Plus iirc Starstone Cathedral apparently has some sort of supernatural effect where if you once successfully use a tactic to enter it, another person can never use the same tactic(that is why people don't just fly over there or teleport there) :p I'm sure someone already tried the wishing. I could be wrong about this part, but otherwise why the heck people would try things like jumping over it if they could just buy fly potion

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You realize Aroden's wishes mean sod all now that he's dead? Although it's interesting to note that no one has become a god since Aroden died. That might explain any screwy things happening in there.


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CorvusMask wrote:

Do realize that gods triumph Mythic Wish. Presumably Aroden would have wanted people to actually go through the anti magic fields and whatever other traps there are inside it(apparently magic stops working correctly inside Cathedral and its capable of changing its layout so it probably screws around with space time as well)

Plus iirc Starstone Cathedral apparently has some sort of supernatural effect where if you once successfully use a tactic to enter it, another person can never use the same tactic(that is why people don't just fly over there or teleport there) :p I'm sure someone already tried the wishing. I could be wrong about this part, but otherwise why the heck people would try things like jumping over it if they could just buy fly potion

So that is why people can't walk across the bridge! Cayden Calien staggered across all those centuries ago.

Liberty's Edge

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
You realize Aroden's wishes mean sod all now that he's dead?

That doesn't follow at all. If you cast Permanency on a spell, it doesn't just stop if you die. Aroden's specific enchantments (which can easily be a tier above even Mythic spells) can easily persist beyond his death, and indeed there's plenty of evidence they've done just that.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What evidence? Unless I missed something, the only time someone tried the test of the Starstone in Pathfinder was a background piece where a knight tried to jump the chasm on his horse, and fell to his death. I believe that Paizo never gave us any concrete information on the Starstone Cathedral.

Dark Archive

Well, the alternative is that Aroden's death should have made attempting Starstone test much easier and since none have succeeded at that, it seems Cathedral part of the test still stands.

Though the interpretation that Aroden's death made Cathedral part of the test practically impossible is also valid

(in general, Dead Gods are weird. It seems kinda random what happens to things powered by their divine power upon their death. On that side note, we don't actually know what Cathedral is powered by so no clue if Aroden was actually looking forward enough to future proof it and have its power be drawn from some other source than himself. It would honestly make sense if Cathedral drew power from Starstone itself like Absalom Station in Starfinder does. Doesn't really matter to go what ifs on that, only thing we know for sure is that there hasn't been another ascended god from starstone yet)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Val'bryn2 wrote:
What evidence? Unless I missed something, the only time someone tried the test of the Starstone in Pathfinder was a background piece where a knight tried to jump the chasm on his horse, and fell to his death. I believe that Paizo never gave us any concrete information on the Starstone Cathedral.

Wounded Wisp has a whole section on The Shrine of the Fallen, and it seems that folks are regularly trying and failing the Test of the Starstone.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Let's take a comment to consider Challenge Ratings.

So. You have a traditional 20th level human Necromancer. His CR is 19.

Applying the Lich Template gives a +2 to their CR, bringing their CR from a 19 to a 21.

Giving them PC-levels of equipment adds +1 to their CR, bringing them to a CR of 22.

If they were a 25-point build initially, they get another +1 to their CR and that brings them to a CR of 23. (As a side-note, I looked at Tar-Baphon's stats. Factoring in for age bonuses and being a Lich, Tar-Baphon's Wisdom started out as a 9, which is where it should be for being his lowest stat in a 25-point build (16/15/14/13/11/9).

So, without 10 Mythic Ranks I can easily have a CR 23 Lich. Let's call him Bar-Fallshort.

Looking at Tar-Baphon, he easily qualifies for PC-levels of equipment. He's most definitely a Lich and gets that +2 to CR for Lichdom. And as I pointed out, he's most likely got a 25-point build. (It does seem he didn't put ALL of his class stat upgrades into Intelligence, though it could also be that he didn't blow five wishes to upgrade Int. - but given how extravagant he is? He probably did.)

Interestingly enough, looking at his physical stats Tar-Baphon was not a spindly mage. Even factoring in that he was Old (and had a -6 to all physical stats) at the time of his death, his Dexterity was 16 and his Strength was likely 11.

So Tar-Baphon honestly should be CR-28 in the old Pathfinder rules. The 10 Mythic Ranks gives him a +5 to his CR and his Lichdom gives him another +2. They ignored his stats and wealth in factoring his CR. And even if you say he's a 15-point build, he STILL would be CR-27.


pjrogers wrote:
Wounded Wisp has a whole section on The Shrine of the Fallen, and it seems that folks are regularly trying and failing the Test of the Starstone.

If I recall correctly there's a little group that tend and update a memorial to all the failed candidates quite close by.


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Perhaps what was needed was a final battle before the starstone cathedrel? It would be classic and dra.atic to try to keep TH out as the last fight and the nuke going off would be the big game changer that marks how magic and stuff changes . Say the Starstone vanishes in the explosion which leads to big adventures trying to find out what happened

Silver Crusade

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That could have worked. A last battle, first preventing the minions of the Whispering Tyrant from breaching, then holding him off themselves. If they had an ally who had reverse engineered the Radiant Fire, and they needed to hold Tar-baphon off until they finished the spell, THAT would be a heroic sacrifice.


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OR by defending the stone and cathedral, the pcs have proven themselves worthy and when the nuke goes off, the stone empowers them as demi gods before vanishing and they awaken in their new realms


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Hmm. Small miscalculation on Tar-Baphon's stats. He'd have a -3 to all physical stats for being 59 years old when he died. That said, he'd still get the age benefits to his mental stats for becoming venerable as that is more about how long you've lived (as seen by immortal characters still getting those boosts).

So while alive, Tar-Baphon's starting Strength was likely a range of 8 to 13, and his starting Dexterity from 11 to 16.

Again, that assumes Tar-Baphon splurged on Wish Spells to improve his physical as well as mental stats. Karzoug did, with a +5 to his Intelligence and +4 to his other five stats. Given how Tar-Baphon loves to spam Wishes? I see no reason why he would not do the same for his own stats.


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Phillip Gastone wrote:
Perhaps what was needed was a final battle before the starstone cathedrel? It would be classic and dra.atic to try to keep TH out as the last fight and the nuke going off would be the big game changer that marks how magic and stuff changes . Say the Starstone vanishes in the explosion which leads to big adventures trying to find out what happened

I don't think the Starstone is going anywhere in canon, based on the setting info for PF2, but if you have no intention of using it or its place of importance in Absalom, this is an excellent conclusion.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Because I'm an old grognard, and I couldn't help myself. Obviously, a lot of this is speculation and outright making s**t up. Feel free to discuss, abuse, or ignore. Who knows? I may even try an OB for Tar-Baphon's army.

ARMY OF LIFE ORDER OF BATTLE
Battle of Immenwood*
Exact date unknown 4719 AR

Army Commander – Rothos of House Vastille, Captain of the First Guard (also Center Wing commander)

Cavalry Screen
Screen Commander - Winton of House Nimz, Captain of the Kortos Cavalry
500 Kortos Cavalry
Covering flanks of the three main wings and gaps between them.

Right (Eastern) Wing
Wing Commander – Erga Sweirhall (dwarven paladin)
Assistant Wing Commander – Yesel of Sothis (Risen Guard)
Total of 2,500 troops from various countries
600 dwarves from the Five Kingdoms
500 Osirian troops
Taldan Phalanx of 500 soldiers (300 pike and 200 archers)
400 Andoran Steel Falcons
200 Knights of Ozem (survivors of the destruction of Lastwall)
300 Absalom Marines (from the naval base at Escadar)

Center Wing
Wing Commander - Rothos of House Vastille, Captain of the First Guard (also Army Commander)
3,000 First Guard

Left (Western) Wing
Wing Commander - Utgar of Gyr, Third Spell Lord of the First Guard
3,000 First Guard

Other Land Forces Deployed Elsewhere in/around Absalom

Patroling and scouting in the Cairnlands
500 Kortos Cavalry
Eagle Garrison scouts

Absalom garrison
Siege Lord
500 First Guard – Azlanti Keep
Various mobilized district guards – City walls
Starwatch – mobile reserve inside the city

* At the edge of the Cairnlands about 20 miles northwest of Absalom.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cole Deschain wrote:
Phillip Gastone wrote:
Perhaps what was needed was a final battle before the starstone cathedrel? It would be classic and dra.atic to try to keep TH out as the last fight and the nuke going off would be the big game changer that marks how magic and stuff changes . Say the Starstone vanishes in the explosion which leads to big adventures trying to find out what happened
I don't think the Starstone is going anywhere in canon, based on the setting info for PF2, but if you have no intention of using it or its place of importance in Absalom, this is an excellent conclusion.

These are all potentially useful ideas for when the AP has PFS sanctioned chronicle sheets.

At that point, I'll probably want to figure out how to run book 6 as a stand alone adventure for high-level PFS characters, and that's definitely going to have involve some changes in the content/flow of the scenario.


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Speaking of women, to move the topic again on the contents of book 6 ...
I'd like to hear your opinions around these questions.

1) Could Ceto's downfall have been portrayed more effectively?
I mean, the adventure make sure she returns as a graveknight if the Pcs either kill her or let her live after she is let to assault them in a very strong scene. Yet, the adventure suppose the Pcs left her with their armor, which is necessary to provoke the transformation into a Graveknight. Could we tide her rise to power to some outside force, like the archdevil Baalzebub? Or should we change her undead type into something else?

2) Should have been more consequences from Baphon's nuking of 3/4 of his starting army from the side of Urgathoa? I mean, Urgathoa is a deity which domains are undeath, disease and such. Baphon's nuked at least 15.000 undead in 1 strike, many of those with sentience, and filled the entire area with more positive energy than negative one to boot. I'd like to think the WT nuked at least 1/12 of the entire undead "population" of Avistan with that move. Since Lyanthari goes against the Pcs after they destroy a few undead, how should the choice of Baphon to nuke thousands of undead (many of whom were probably aware) be felt by a priestess of the goddess of undeads? Should Lyanthari be trying to not only make Baphon shallow is pride, but also punish him somehow?


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Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

1) Could Ceto's downfall have been portrayed more effectively?

I mean, the adventure make sure she returns as a graveknight if the Pcs either kill her or let her live after she is let to assault them in a very strong scene. Yet, the adventure suppose the Pcs left her with their armor, which is necessary to provoke the transformation into a Graveknight. Could we tide her rise to power to some outside force, like the archdevil Baalzebub? Or should we change her undead type into something else?

If my group does something funky with the armor, I'll just have her turn up as a ghost. Ghosts are easy to custom-build, and capable of being dead nasty. Might slap a couple other templates on to give her enough capability to be a menace.

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2) Should have been more consequences from Baphon's nuking of 3/4 of his starting army from the side of Urgathoa? I mean, Urgathoa is a deity which domains are undeath, disease and such. Baphon's nuked at least 15.000 undead in 1 strike, many of those with sentience, and filled the entire area with more positive energy than negative one to boot. I'd like to think the WT nuked at least 1/12 of the entire undead "population" of Avistan with that move. Since Lyanthari goes against the Pcs after they destroy a few undead, how should the choice of Baphon to nuke thousands of undead (many of whom were probably aware) be felt by a priestess of the goddess of undeads? Should Lyanthari be trying to not only make Baphon shallow is pride, but also punish him somehow?

Considering how his ego was already souring things with the Urgathoans, I think there's certainly room for some undead on undead strife- that said, there's a decent chance most of the ones who'd raise a fuss get vaped along with the mindless ones. Lyanthari turning on him is both possible... and probably not terribly significant to a guy who has already skedaddled back to his phylactery by that point.

Makes a handy excuse to explain any lieutenants running off with chunks of the remaining army to do their own thing if you want to, though.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cole Deschain wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:
2) Should have been more consequences from Baphon's nuking of 3/4 of his starting army from the side of Urgathoa? I mean, Urgathoa is a deity which domains are undeath, disease and such. Baphon's nuked at least 15.000 undead in 1 strike, many of those with sentience, and filled the entire area with more positive energy than negative one to boot. I'd like to think the WT nuked at least 1/12 of the entire undead "population" of Avistan with that move. Since Lyanthari goes against the Pcs after they destroy a few undead, how should the choice of Baphon to nuke thousands of undead (many of whom were probably aware) be felt by a priestess of the goddess of undeads? Should Lyanthari be trying to not only make Baphon shallow is pride, but also punish him somehow?

Considering how his ego was already souring things with the Urgathoans, I think there's certainly room for some undead on undead strife- that said, there's a decent chance most of the ones who'd raise a fuss get vaped along with the mindless ones. Lyanthari turning on him is both possible... and probably not terribly significant to a guy who has already skedaddled back to his phylactery by that point.

Makes a handy excuse to explain any lieutenants running off with chunks...

I think this raises a very interesting point about TB's control, or lack of it, over his own forces. There doesn't seem to be much actual loyalty to TB among his subordinates. They're following him out of fear and/or because they think doing so is their own best interest. The situation in Fallowdeep in book 6 certainly reveals huge conflicts between the high level "followers" of TB. I know folks are probably tired of my historical analogies, but it reminds me a bit of the infighting between the various high level Nazis during WWII, which lead to a lot of inefficiency and wasted effort

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Probably. I think the main 2 things keeping him in power are his enormous personal power and the fact that, as long as he created the undead, they are bound to him. They probably don't like it, but they are not given any choice.

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