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Silver Crusade

Kazaan wrote:
Natrim wrote:
The chosen weapon is the dagger pistol itself in this example. It is a double weapon, ergo both ends count as the same weapon for proficiency and feats, essentially for everything besides enchanting, both ends are the same weapon, are they not? So could not a Kensai bladebound with a dagger pistol use Perfect Strike with the firearm aspect of the weapon?
No because Precise Strike concerns Use, not item properties. A Longsword, for instance, is a one-handed slashing weapon. Consequently, it can be used as a one-handed slashing weapon (by a creature for which it is properly sized). You can apply two hands to it, but it's still a one-handed weapon as far as use as well as rules elements concerning it as an object. So for a properly sized Longsword, item properties happen to mesh up 100% with use properties. But if a Medium creature got a hold of a Large Longsword, things get a bit complicated. For rules elements concerning it as an object, it's still a one-handed slashing weapon. However, for rules concerning its use/wielding, it is used as a two-handed slashing weapon. Properties as an object and properties of use are different and, though they may agree 90% of the time, they still must be considered separately for just such situations as this. The Dagger Pistol is a one-handed firearm when considered as an item. But as far as use/wielding goes, it can be used as either a one-handed firearm or a light melee weapon. Here, you can see that use doesn't match up completely with item properties. Precise Strike requires the use of a light or one-handed piercing weapon. The Dagger Pistol, as an item, is a one-handed firearm but can be used as either a one-handed firearm or a light piercing melee weapon. You can only use Precise Strike when using it as a dagger and that doesn't translate over to using it as a firearm. Likewise, if you have a weapon that deals Bludgeoning or Piercing damage, and put Keen on it, you'd only benefit from the...

For this discussion, I am slightly confused in why you used the examples you did. Precise Strike, the feat and the ability with that name (Teamwork feat and the Duelist PrC ability) do not mention use or properties or wielding or anything of the sort.

If you mean 'Perfect Strike', the Kensai class ability of which I asked? It only specifies the Kensai's chosen weapon must be used. Which, in turn, is "A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice.". No limitations on use or size or properties besides 1) melee, and 2) martial or exotic. There's nothing about a light or one handed weapon mentioned.

Now, mechanically, this wouldn't be all that much here. A Coat Pistol, medium sized, is a single d4 of damage. Spending a point from an arcane pool to make it do...4! DAMAGE!! Is a underwhelming and poor utilization of those limited arcane pool points. Granted, if rolling a crit, turning a x3 into an x4 for 2 points IS rather nifty and probably worthwhile use of points, but that is something we generally don't try to build our expectations around, expecting a crit on a 20 only crit range. Also, this is at best a backup option for the character, given that range increment of... 10ft. Still, overall, a rather underwhelming build, and my curiosity is more for an idea then an attempt the next super-martial-champion or whatever.

Also, didn't a dev clarify on the 'weapons that do more then one type of damage' debate that effects like Keen DO stack, in the example of the morningstar? That for determining the effects of DR, one went with the result that favored the weapon's wielder? If your inclusion of the word "or" was to delineate the difference between the damage type of the blade of the dagger/cane-sword and that of the bullet, well that would fall under the previously acknowledged caveat that both ends of a double weapon count separately for enchanting purposes. So...yeah. I'll re-admit to being confused at the examples again.

(Also apologies for any rudeness, I'm in the middle of moving and going back to college. Just a wee bit busy and stressed as you can imagine :).

Silver Crusade

Spell Storing? Bullets? Not off the top of my head. I just wanted to ask something similar, as I've been considering a sword cane pistol Blackblade/Kensai and Gunslinger multiclass hybrid build as a theme character for awhile now. Thematically trying to style after Roman Torchwick from RWBY, and mechanically trying to be able to cover melee and ranged combat at the same time. (Yes, I'm aware the archetype name is Bladebound, not Blackblade, but darn it I can never think of it as the 'bladebound' archetype). And if need be for RAW, I could easily change it to the dagger version *shrug*.

More or less, I would think that the magus iconic abilities -spell striking, spell combat, etc- would only apply to wielding the blade of the sword cane pistol, but I couldn't think of anything, reading descriptions, that would prevent a Kensai Bladebound from using Perfect Strike with a bladebound Dagger Pistol?

The chosen weapon is the dagger pistol itself in this example. It is a double weapon, ergo both ends count as the same weapon for proficiency and feats, essentially for everything besides enchanting, both ends are the same weapon, are they not? So could not a Kensai bladebound with a dagger pistol use Perfect Strike with the firearm aspect of the weapon?

After all, when I was reading up on the subject, no where that I could find in the description and rules of Double Weapons state that a double weapon is always a two-handed weapon. Presumably the vast majority ARE such, as 'duh', most such weapons are quite clearly described as needing two hands in their descriptions (which in itself, isn't a Rule, perhaps, but is a strong guideline to always conside I feel) but my point is: RAW, Double weapons are not necessarily two-handed weapons, as far as I could find. If there is a line I overlooked, someone please point it out to me.

So with this, quite likely a corner case example, could one build such? Kensai/Blade bound Magus wielding a Dagger Pistol as his chosen weapon? Using Perfect Strike with both blade and pistol aspects?

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82. At first glance, the planetary body appears to be just a broken, twisted landscape, until closer examination reveals the planetary mass to be an unbelievably large accumulated mass of bodies, mostly of immense outsiders and other non-aging beings all bound in permanent stasis and then kept preserved in the void as to hide the bound ones to any who would seek to free any of the ones imprisoned here. Seeking for the ancient one responsible for this will reveal the massive accumulation of bodies to be the work of a long-forgotten archmage of unparalleled power, who upon defeating any opponent that could possibly return to threaten him again would bind them in stasis and then cast a improved version of the Nailed to the Sky 3.5 epic spell to hide the bound foe and to deny allies the chance to rescue his vanquished foes.

Silver Crusade the covers? Why read the covers when you can read the contents?! Covers are just fancy modern versions of things like your scroll case to protect your scrolls of Raise Dead or Limited Wish. It's the outside, it has the name on it for reference sake (The one labeled Fireball is not to be confused with the one labeled True Ressurection while in the middle of the fight) and what else about it matters?

I certainly can see it becoming a collectible in 20 years though, heh.

Silver Crusade

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Impact? Really? The jump from M to L weapon is probably worth 2 points of damage, sure, but you're giving up the +2 to hit. As well as the ability to overcome some DR.

Um, please read the entirety of what was posted? Impact is useful if combined with Vital Strike. The greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6 with impact, an average of 3.5, then Vital Strike doubles that again. That +2 enchantment, with a feat that was already going to be taken? Becomes 7 damage. Combine Enlarge Person, and add another 3.5 (3d6 becoming 4d6), so one is at, with one spell, one feat, and a +2 value enchantment, +14 average damage. Take Improved/Greater Vital Strike, and those 3 feats, the same first level spell, and the +2 enchantment became +28 average damage increase on that greatsword. A +2 enchantment for what can end up being a lot more then 2 damage is worth it, if that's the build of the character.

Throw in mythic versions and, well, I don't think I'm the only one who recalls mythic Vital Strike builds one-shoting anything in the bestiary, even Great Old Ones... With (mythic variants) Greater Vital Strike and Power attack, and not taking the two-handed Fighter archetype, I recall breaking 600 damage a turn with a single attack. *shrug* And it was a theme character, not a powergaming campaign. Powergaming, with mythic rules, one can easily break ten or even twenty thousand damage with the combination.

As was said. It's a bit more for a higher level of play then the OP is speaking off, and really is only amazing with mythic rules, however it is unbelievably devastating with the mythic rules. It's not the end-all be-all of two handed builds, but it is one that ends up being impressive in its devastating capability.

Silver Crusade

At lower level? That +1 to hit (and damage) really can't be overlooked. Especially if one is, say, using Power Attack.

Impact + Vital Strike (+ Enlarge Person!) is always a fun one. Built a mythic paladin around Mythic Enlarge Person and Impact/Vital Strike once. Was great fun smashing things, but that was more of a higher level of play then I think the OP means.

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Er, can't make a wand of Quickened True Strike, wands only go up to 4th level spell slots. Oh wait, you already caught

Unless you had a generous GM who allowed someone with a a trait or two invested (Magical Lineage, Wayang Spell Hunter? I believe -I don't particularly recall well the names, my table doesn't play with traits normally) into True Strike to make the wand, not going to happen within the normal rules.

Although I have debated making a character based on investing multiple traits into True Strike for long-term planning, Quickened TS on a 3rd level slot could be...intriguing...

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Well, that post from Mark Seifter makes my #390 FAQ contribution seem silly. Still! We've had this come up multiple times in our table, and to hear some progress on getting an answer is good!

*waves flag, cheers* 'Yaay'

Silver Crusade

See what I get for not bothering to check. :) Still any spell that does negative energy damage could be utilized for healing for a Lich.

*Blink* When did Finger of Death become untyped *shrug*

Silver Crusade

Also? Finger of Death is a necromancy spell, and if memory serves, deals negative energy... Regardless, any spell that is typically an offensive one that deals negative energy can be turned around for healing for the lich. Ennervation for some quick temporary health points as an example.

Or you could really just abuse some alternate racial traits -Samsaran? Can gain spells from another class's list... So here's a Samsaran wizard with Harm from the Witch list (Or heal from the alchemist list if not planning for undead). Or such a samsaran traded a scroll to the lich... Lots of twinkery available.

Then again, our table's assumption is that 'only a clever character lives past 10th level' to begin with, so YMMV on how far to take that route.

Silver Crusade

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Okay... So check my math, would you? I'm looking at mythic Magic Missile and just not seeing a reason to NOT prepare maximized empowered magic missiles here. 65 points? at 19th level, augmented for 130? Quicken (with spell perfection or a rod) for 260 a round? No save, no Resistance, no shield spell, no spell immunity... If a group of players are fighting something that dealing damage to seems a better call then trying to force save-or-suck's....

Well, What else is quite so reliable, hmm? *also looking at 3.5 Twin Spell and thinking 'rods, spell perfection, spend 4 points of mythic power and a couple of high level spell slots for...520 points... Well. Why not?'

Less useful? Perhaps. Very very reliable and actually quite high damage? Yup.

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Well if you want to be clever, sure.... *grin*

Forgot about that particular loophole. Still, always worth considering that material component aspect. Way too easily overlooked, I find. *shrug*

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And a minor side note, and possibly very relevant, is that adamantine arrows cost more then 1 gp/apiece, making them ineligible for Eschew Materials feat's benefit. So you'll have to 'spend' an arrow each time you want to cast the spell on the container.

Silver Crusade

Glad you liked it Ravendork. He's one of my favorites for inspiration.

Cats! How could I forget!


Party is looking for a halfling arcane caster, a known assassin who uses dominate person to turn innocents into potential assassins and has been making attempts on the pc's and the king employing them. The trail has taken them to..the orphanages.

Halflings. Human orphanages. Problem?

But wait! We're 11th level! So everyone starts casting their various detection spells to look for magic. And the witch sees a cat with a magic aura on it run past, and manages to nail it with a freeze hex, thinking 'cat with a magic aura? Could be our mage under a polymorph!'

So he starts tying up this now frozen kitten with rope swearing at it and throwing every non-lethal hex and curse and spell he can think of at it (Scarred Witch Doctor archetype, so big scary half Orc here!) while snarling "You will tell me your secrets!"

And out walks a little old lady, like a 2nd or 3rd level Adept who had put a status spell on her little cat to know if a beggar tried to eat 'Mr Fluffles', freaking out at the massive horrifically scarred half Orc that is now seemingly torturing her cat while a group of heavily armed adventurers stood by watching and laugh. Didn't do our reputation any help, that day. But it certainly did make for some good laughs.

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Er, once long before PF was printed? Played in a purely verbal RP campaign, no dice or sheets or anything. For the randomization of chance, the GM thought of a number and it's corresponding opposite between 1 and 20 as the 'nat 20' and 'nat 1' of that particular roll and told the players to pick a number between 1 and 20. He treated success as equivalent to rolling a dice's equivalently-close-to-20/1. IE, GM picks 17 and 3 as the nat20/nat1, and the player picked a 14, he'd be treated as having rolled a 17 base.

We were working with our hands in a little startup, and were both quite busy and quite bored. (Also we couldn't actually use dice, as we were working...) So, to keep our minds occupied, one guy came up with a story, and told us to come up with a couple of characters. I was the only one who'd even played 1e/2e/3.0/3.5 at the time, the others hadn't ever cracked open a single rulebook in their lives but enjoyed a good bit of RP/mutual story telling. So we essentially came up with 1st level characters and instead of focusing on skills or BAB or anything mechanical, focused on coming up with clever solutions and descriptive role playing. (Oh and our employer didn't mind as long as we were on top of the workload, and having our minds engaged actually ended up helping us stay ahead of the deadlines.)

Was extremely fun, although partly only because of who (all of us being best friends) was in the small group (3 people total). The 'campaign' went on for 5 years, actually. Any larger of a group or not as close of friends, without the framework of the rules mechanics would probably have fallen apart long before that point.

Silver Crusade

I played a bladebound magus to 15th level last year. No other archetypes or anything, had great fun over all. Spent most of the campaign wishing the blade's pool was just a bit larger though, until the higher levels. Either that or for the ability to enchant the durned thing further.

The ability to turn the sword's damage into an elemental one was also randomly useful in addition to the force aspect. "Okay, so I've failed to beat the dragon's SR several times now... Ah, heck with it. Hey GM! My knowledge check was a 32, so the character knows what elemental type to use on it, right?" *starts smacking the red dragon with a sword made of ice for double base damage on top of the attempt to land a shocking grasp* 'hey, I might as well do something to it in the meantime, right?'

Otherwise? Having my arcane pool reduced to 1/3rd instead of 1/2 level hurt, but the return in not needing to purchase my primary weapon did help considerably in being able to fill out other item purchases (although that was the only real return benefit, I felt).

Every ability of the black blade was just too limited or specific to be consistently useful. Summoning the blade came up once in a RP-to-combat moment (Hello captain-ohmigoodnessDRAGON! *fails will save against frightful presence, drops sword*), the black blade strike was never worth it, just not at all, the energy conversion was useful but the small pool made it useful just once or twice a day.

That 18th level Lifedrinker ability looked amazing, but the campaign ended at 15, so I can't comment on how useful it would be.

Silver Crusade

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Mr. Welch's list! An excellent contribution.

"Javelin to the nipple!"

Rogues, javelin traps plus the rogue's nipples. Started with a character several years back at our table, who's trapfinding rogue kept finding javelin traps...with his torso. Which invariably would crit. And the cleric kept rolling absolute minimum to heal him. This happened some 6 or 7 times in a row, even with multiple levels gained and months of playing, every javelin in existence would hit him, and only him, for a crit.

It might be Call of Cthulhu instead of PF, but another favorite is Old Man Henderson.

Hellsing Abridged. 'Nuff said.

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Which is the simplest answer, and therefore the most likely.

(Just...why is this class feature even listed? Does not make any sense, even thematically much less mechanically)

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Not quite. "The samurai can draw the selected weapon as a free action as if he had the Quick Draw feat." That's not the same as actually having the Quick Draw feat, which is listed separately under the prerequisites, so the samurai's class ability wouldn't alone satisfy it.

"As if" having the feat for the one weapon is not the same as having the actual feat, after all.

Silver Crusade

What, exactly, are the prerequisites for this feat? The wording seems a bit unclear on the prerequisites.

What is this 'weapon expertise' prerequisite? The only thing I can find by that name is the Samurai 3rd level ability. Is this really a prerequisite then, considering the named ability belongs to another class-this would also require a magus to be 15th level at a minimum to take this feat, after all. So, is this a typo or what?

My search-fu merely found one thread on this back in '11 that never quite got any definitive answer. However one poster did point out that one could interpret the wording as 'either the arcana, OR the quick draw feat, OR the samurai class feature' (reworded for simplicity's sake). I don't quite agree with the prerequisites being that easily satisfied, but the point was made and deserves at least some consideration. *shrug?*

So unless I'm missing something, and this feat is only meant for a 12 magus/3 samurai, and who spec'd for katana or wakizashi (given the wording of the samurai ability here, and the requirements of spellstrike/spell combat) then I do believe there is a typo in the prerequisites of this feat.

Thoughts? Answers?

Silver Crusade

Cap of the Free Thinker for most will saves, and always getting as good of a cloak of resistance as possible. Taking a 2 level dip in paladin sometimes. Potions of Heroism can be relatively cheap and helpful. Luckstone is another favorite for a rare type of bonus...

Lots of ways.

Silver Crusade

Certainly a valid question, and one that is going to be relevant in an upcoming (homebrew) game at our table very soon, hence my interest. I'm in favor of the 'works for both' generous argument, but I can see the alternative interpretation.

Silver Crusade

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Homebrew campaign, with crafting feats allowed, saw a alchemist and a summoner character work together with the collaborative crafting rules, to create a CL7 (the spell is level 3 on the summoner list!) Greater Invisibilty potion.

The alchemist then worked up to the Eternal Potion discovery. With Alchemical Allocation to not waste that potion, he had permanent greater invisibility. As he was a beastmorph/Vivesectionist, it was fairly terrifying. Although, at least 80% of anything non-humanoid had so many means of seeing him anyway at that level (16), it certainly didn't feel overpowered. Not in the slightest. In fact, even against flat footed AC, he still had such a hard time hitting that the player, upon the character being disintegrated, turned down the offer of a resurrection to build a ranger.

However, that was at very high level, where invisibility is mostly irrelevant, due to tremorsense/blindsense/blindsight/Necromancy-school-ability-I-forget-the-na me-of, to true seeing to see invisibility to whatever. Certainly made for fun RP though, the character kept forgetting that he was invisible and would try to point things out with his hands... xD

Silver Crusade

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Roleplay? Arguable there are more fighters then rangers in a setting, what with civilizations or organizations being able to churn fighters out from academies and schools, with any mode of thought, style, alignment, complete and total flexibility in mentalities.

Being a ranger tend to require unusual mindset, if one goes by the original theme of the class as a 'protector/warden of nature'. Arguable, and not looking for an argument, merely trying to think outside the box to answer the OP's question.

Other then that... Well, mechanical differences have already been listed. My experience is that the real difference is below level 10 or so, when rangers get access to third level spells (namely, Instant Enemy). Before that, fighters are more consistently reliable in their fighting skill. After that, Rangers are as skilled or possibly more so (With feats allowing for some leeway there). Just some Pearls of Power and they're good.

Oh, and for a GM's perspective, fighters tend to be easier to build then rangers for the party to fight. That's a difference! ;)

Silver Crusade

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I've had a party of all martials, six characters, with rangers and paladins providing much of the healing with wands. That was...interesting, to say the least. With mildly optimized characters it tended to work out, but was extremely resource draining, with large investment in wands and scrolls (HASTE!), and UMD all around. Wasn't quite as fun as a usual party, what with no quick access to utility spells and options. That hit 12th level before the group fell apart. Combat was either very fun or very not. Very much not if the fight was more then both sides charging across a room to bash each other with pointy sticks, in anyway, like...there being pits. Or any opposing spell casters. Certainly made for fun RP though.

I'm playing right now in a party with a rogue, a unoptimized rogue/cleric, two barbarians, a monk, a bard, and a synthesis summoner who has an int. score of 7 (with the player trying to be very faithful to that, so the summoner hasn't cast a single spell, instead thinks his eidolon is the spirits of dead family seeking vengeance). That group started at 1, now at 4-just-short-of-5. The feel is that at level 5, when the wizards and clerics would have access to 3rd level spells, the difference will really start to be felt.

No full casters? Hurts. Doable, until those higher levels. 6th level spells is really where it starts to pull away, I've found.

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My Beastmorph Vivisectionist went Trickster, (in no order, and using Path Dabbling to borrow out mostly from Guardian) assured drinker, vanishing move, shadow stealth, fast healing, fast healing... Got obliterated before hit tier 6 though, although it was a toss up between Invincible Stand (he was the only melee combatant in the party, and had to cover a large variety of roles) or Enduring Elixer. Path Dabbling was my friend...

Assured Drinker was used insanely often. Would have used Fleet charge a lot, except had invested into the Eldritch heritage feat chain to grab DD and invested in the Dimensional Assault chain, and rarely felt he needed it. Would have helped a bomb-throwing alchemist though.

Silver Crusade

Tanglefoot as well for the Sorc, as everything you can do to increase the DC for casting defensively to prevent him from casting be needed. Silence is a complete shut down if they don't have Silent Spell, and the full round action it would make it to cast standard-action spells would devastate his action economy.

Quick Runner's Shirt for the action economy. Trade in your swift action for an extra move action once a day, but that should give you a round with taking a move action and still getting a full attack. And it's a fairly uncommonly used slot, and a cheap item to begin with, so very little cost.

Dispel magic scrolls? Afterall, characters are dependent on their spells/magical items. Removing spell effects, essentially making them loose the slot for the day if your character can do so from a position of stealth or shutting down key magic items will make a huge difference in tipping the scales.

Oh, and utility buffs for yourself. Potions of Heroism, blur, anyone?

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Thank you CWheezy. *does some digging* Oh, that would be why I didn't know that one, haven't had/read/used that particular source book.

That said, hello new-trait-for-my-next-magus!

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(Er, two traits? I can only think of one off the top of my head that effects metamagic increase in spell level).

Spell Perfection, gah. Our high level campaign has the universalist wizard giggling at 90% or more of monsters with a Perfect'd Feeblemind. And the blaster-sorc just giggles at what he can do with it.

Leadership has been generally banned at our table for years, due to the abuse and nonsense it seemingly invariably leads to...

Craft Wondrous Item. 'nuff said.

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Or 4,000gp if one decides it's still chainmail, therefore it's base stats are from a medium armor. It takes a very focused Dex build to take advantage of that extra +2 max dex bonus.

I'm fine with allowing it to be made out of mithral, most of my table would only want that to get rid of the armor check penalty *shrug*

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The best use of the feat I've seen so far has been a high level bard, who mid-to-later in a fight has summoned, buffed, activated and maintained bardic performances, etc etc ad nauseum, and was looking for more options for maximizing his action economy as well as general utility. Supplementary, possibly not the best use of his standard action, but it was enough to contribute consistently on anything with SR or DR.

(That, and he had the most aggravating luck in 'Kill Stealing' with it. Especially on things like Dragons) ;p

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Tenchuu, or the Judgement of Heaven (roughly translated of course).
Tenken, heavenly sword as well. Or:
Jinchuu, Judgement of Earth. Declaring your strength as a mortal to overcome even the vileness of fiends seems poetic enough...

'Oy! UP YOURS!' works too though :)

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A potential reason the 'wishes for me, wishes for you' sort of deal wouldn't work? It's essentially slavery for them, or perhaps indentured servitude at best. Just because they can benefit, doesn't mean that members of a proud race would willing submit to the will of a mortal.

And Ashiel, I would guess the 'invalidate classes' comment would be a 'well now the inquisitor/magus/other 3/4 BAB class doesn't have a prayer of hitting it outside of a nat 20' essentially.

To which, I'd ask when they would like to stop playing a one-trick pony and be creative...

'Oh no, my magus can't hit with spellstrike on the dragon that's actually wearing the ring of protection and amulet of natural armor from it's horde. *shrug* I cast shocking grasp again and then deliver it via a touch attack.'

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*Wheeze* *Pant* *Wheeze*

Just..Just gimme a sec, gotta catch my breath... *straightens out, takes a deep breath*

Just read the entire thread, somewhat exhausted ;)

I'll put down another 'The math does not break down, it's just a matter of there being far more (potential) variables to track' camp. Most 'broken' or 'overpowered' spell combinations don't work, or don't work quite as intended, when one takes the time to actually read spell descriptions (As I recall recently JJ and SKR inputted on different threads on the 'Scry and Fry' idea, that if you read the wording of the Scrying, well, you don't have enough to reliably teleport on top of that BBEG scried...)

So high level campaigns are just that-High, or exceptional, difficult, rare, etc with much more important stakes and consequences. I'm currently playing in a campaign that just hit 16th level, with 1 mythic tier. Can we scry the BBEG? Nope, we don't even know who or what the BBEG is yet. We do know he has a teleporting, planeshifting artifact Airship, and is responsible for the abduction and murder/possibly-sacrificing-for-some-as-yet-unknown-reason the head cleric (essentially the direct avatar of the god) of a good aligned church.... And that's about it. We've found hints about this, bread crumbs in 5 different directions, and at least 2 possible motives.

Sure, if we just stumbled across the fellow in broad daylight and he stood there and just traded whatever spells or blows he had, it could very quickly become a game of rocket tag, but rather, the fun is in the epic story telling, of which the combat scenes are important. Was that mythic Iron Golem infused with the power and sentience of an Old Black Dragon a fight the PC's nearly ran away from rather then try to fight? Of course it was. The fun wasn't in the fact that the PC's had a hard fight, it was in that their creativity in finding a way to overcome the beast was challenged, and they rose to the challenge. Did any and all tactics work? Of course not. Did the pouncing Beastmorph/vivisectionist Alchemist singlehandedly murder it? No. Did that player (myself) feel like that it was directly designed to stop his particular character build? No, it was a challenge to everyone.

(For the record, one of the two sorcerer's started using limited wish to regain uses of his draconic bloodline breath weapon to kill it, while everyone else did their best to distract it/support the other characters. Very fun, very difficult fight. It fought creatively, intelligently, and it felt a bit like a chess match of positioning each other into a possible checkmate).

Do saves/DC's possibly need some work? Perhaps. Probably. Do AC/to hit comparisons? Not as much I'd say. After all, why not reward the character for investing their levels into a full BAB class? They can hit their opponent reliably. Whoop te doo. If that's really an issue, well then, why not have a cloak of displacement or some such on opponents you want to last a bit longer? There are just more options to keep track off, and that's all it really comes down to. Good book keeping, on both the players and GM's sides help considerably, but that's just it.

There are options, and the number of them vastly increases at higher levels. That's about all there is to it, and if you feel your system mastery is up to it, well, why not let people enjoy those options?

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Ring of Telekinesis. Had a sorcerer with one, and a non-magical adamantine dagger, when the party ran into an extra large iron golem, and the fighter was occupied (I forget how). 'Plinked' to death the golem with that dagger while hovering.

Ring of Invisibility.
Every. Single. 'Sneaky'. Character.
All of them.

Especially the one with the activation word, Potato, that was used by a warforged-esque construct race arcane trickster. He didn't know what a potato actually was, and spent the rest of the campaign trying to argue with the Gnome alchemist that his ring was a 'potato', not those "mishapen lumpy brown..things". Much to the amusement of the players.

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I made a rogue/universalist wizard AT once in PF, played him to 12th. Was a great deal of fun, had a huge amount of versatility and variety, but he did take some work in combat. I ended up using the 'hand of the apprentice' ability quite a bit, essentially any time I couldn't get (or didn't dare risk) flanking for sneak attack. As soon as he hit 10th and got Greater invisibility his combat utility went out the roof.

Until then, I used spider climb and invisibility, and ranged legerdemain all the time in non-combat situations.
'I cast detect magic, and look around the tavern floor from the roof'. 'How long do you do this?'
'A full minute, checking the whole tavern'
'Okay, besides the party, there are two magic aura's. One comes from a dagger on one of the merchants in the middle, and the other comes from something at the bar.'
*promptly steals a +2 dagger and a +1 seeking heavy crossbow, and finds the secret entrance to a hidden room hidden behind the bar*

So, high versatility, limited combat usefulness -took creativity- and a lot of fun. Vivisectionist/Beastmorph alchemist (playing one right now, just hit 15th) has a lot of the same versatility and fun, and more combat utility once it gets pounce.

Lots of ways to have this sort of character concept. Just make sure you understand what options the one you pick has, and that you'll enjoy it.

Silver Crusade

I also wonder, on what basis is he coming up with this 'if it's unhallowed, the holy symbol would catch fire' idea? I mean, I certainly don't recall anything like that in the spell description! (After all, that would be far too easy of a way to lock down and prevent enemy clerics from fighting effectively in one's 'home turf' if hallow/unhallow destroyed opposing clerical symbols!) Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but it certainly feels like something being 'pulled out of the air'.

Certainly not a good plan, in any way. Thoughts? If they go off to suicide, well they go off to suicide, and 'Stupidity' is the hardest ailment in the multiverse to cure, I hear...

Silver Crusade

I'll +1 the Beastmorph/Vivisectionist idea, I'm playing one right now who just hit 15th level. With conjurations for flanking, or greater invisibility, the character gets full attack-sneak attacks on pounce-charge. Very brutal, has a very high dexterity and therefore great AC (Agile amulet of mighty fists FTW!)...

That, and he has Cure Light Wounds to Cure Critical Wounds as extracts, with the Infuse Other discovery, he can heal, and at 15th, gets Regeneration, at 16th Heal. Secondary healer, if need be, primary combatant, skilled rogue-ish scout, etc... Multiple things covered in a single character. UMD being a class skill does help too.

A thing to ask your GM, is on 'custom' items, such as using the collaborative crafting rules to see if, working with a 7th+ level Summoner, you could make a Potion of Greater Invisibility. Use a Alchemical Allocation (2nd level extract) and you can have a brutal combo of full attacking for a full round of sneak attacks...

Silver Crusade

5 wishes, 4 of which would be fun ones for this thread.

First, and this was back in 2e, (and my first introduction to Wish) was for gaining the equivalent of the standard 8 hours of rest. Was crazy powerful, but then, as that party had a tendency to blow every resource on mere minions instead of fighting intelligently, ended up not being a game-breaker. Could have easily ended up being one, though.

The next was... complicated, but well handled by the GM, I'd say.:
The second was by a fellow party member in a campaign, a little over a year ago. The PC's have hit 12th level or so, and get sent out to go find out why the critical shipment of grain hadn't arrived, by the LE king the LG neighboring country had sent the PC's to go work for (a CE organization was doing its best to destabilize the country, for reasons then unknown, blah blah blah lots of plot xD). The airship is found, bizarrely not moving, until the PC's realize that the crew member manning the helm was actually a Glabrezu using its Veil spell, and was holding the noblewoman we were supposed to rescue as part of this mission hostage. Shenanigans later, the noblewoman is dropped off the side of the ship and the sorcerer (CN) catches her, only to be telepathically offered a Wish spell, free of twisting, in exchange for the girl back. He accepts, and drops the noblewoman back on the ship in the Glabrezu's arms. (At which point, the noblewoman takes 3 rounds of studying the Glabrezu, and uses her Assassin PrC Death Attack ability, and the PC's realize... well, the plot advanced).

The Sorcerer impulsively wishes that the LE king is cured of his 'mage rot', a homebrew magical malady similar to Alzheimers (that progresses each time the afflicted cast a spell, horrible curse for a Magus). The GM, who's plot was contingent on the fact that said king was dying and loosing his mind, unable to know who he could trust and knowing that he was unable to remember accurately, had an Inevitable contact the PC, giving an interesting idea for handling an 'abusive wish'.

Roughly, 'King Leo has been cursed directly by a god, and as such, your wish is impossible to grant. However, the act of Wish magic has happened, so you are being granted a different wish that you may utter now.' Or, rather, 'GM Fiat, I can't let you have that wish, but here, try again.'

So he Wished to have the crown prince, who had died to that 10-levels-in-Assassin-Prc-noblewoman, to be able to be raised. Which completely threw off the expected plot of the GM, but who took it as a fun new direction for the campaign.

Third, fourth, and fifth all happened in short order in a high level evil campaign, and were a bit more...pushing the limit, I suppose. (And were one of my characters, a drow lich to be specific, wishes).

The third was to be able to always have control over the next undead dragon he created, or rather that it would never desire to gain independence from his control (which caused the GM to gain a suspicious look on his face but he allowed). The fourth was made about 5 minutes later, after several limited wishes to fake the 3.5 spell 'hide from dragons' or whatever it was called from the Draconomicon, and to find a specific red dragon (that was sleeping/hibernating). He then teleported in with the party rogue, both of course very high level, and had the Rogue Coup de Grace the sleeping dragon with a bone razor and then used the Fourth Wish to have it be animated as a wight, not a skeleton, and under his control and not the rogue's. (The wish was very well worded, as I recall), which was then used as a key element for fighting a war -greater invisibility on his pet Wight dragon, then have it start attacking battalions, having it send its created minion wights attacking their former fellows. Very nasty, and used as a weapon of fear as well as direct combat.

Fifth wish, same campaign, near the end of what became a long drawn out war with a neighboring elven country, was 'I wish that the most powerful elven archmage of *wave towards elven land* elven country teleported right here right now'. Then my lich used his medium rod of Quicken to drop an antimagic field, and ordered his iron golem to kill the very confused elven mage. Which, given the antimagic field, 7 player characters and an iron golem, took one round to kill the 22nd level wizard. The archmage only had some 'basic' items on him, seriously devaluing his 'loot value' but it essentially ended the war on the spot.

Silver Crusade

I think the scariest we've come up with, was a Lich Magus smacking PC's around and grinning. 'Here's various magus combinations for large amounts of damage at higher level, AND my paralyzing touch. Oooh, look, I critted! What was your health again? Dead?'

Either that or the Vampire cleric, with channel smite on a conductive weapon for both his level drain and his channel damage... Paladin? What Paladin? *nudges ash pile out of sight with foot*

Also consider options such as the Talons of Leng, although I believe that might not combine at all with Conductive... *too tired to actually look up wording tonight*

Silver Crusade

I have to ask, as my party encountered this recently:

Have you ever encountered a drunken (copper) Dragon?

Silver Crusade

I have to disagree here, in that the description of Channel Energy states that one either channels to affect living or undead. The effect of that (harming or healing) depends on which of those two you are choosing to affect when you channel, and upon what type of energy the cleric channels.

So, in summary, the character channels, and decides to effect living or undead. The result of the channel depends then on whether the channeler has selected positive or negative energy for their character. Whatever they might think would happen is immaterial to what does happen, which is based on those two choices -the type of energy channeled, and what of two options was selected to be affected, namely living or undead. All effects are determined from those two choices. So it could be quite possible for a cleric to accidentally affect an unintended target....

Silver Crusade

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Yes... Except, one thing commonly overlooked, is that a rapier is not a light weapon. It can be treated like one for the purpose of weapon finesse, in that it is specific additional option for Finesse, but it is listed separate from the generic category of 'light weapons', both under the Finesse feat on on weapon charts, and fighter weapon groups.

So, no, I'd have to say that a Knife Master does not get the bonus against a rapier.

Silver Crusade

While I too would recommend going with the fighter group, the same choices can be selected/divined by considering the weapon charts, finding which ones are both on the 'Light' weapon lists, and yet have blades. (Daggers, short swords, Kukri's, etc). The fighter weapon group is just a way to have a quick reference group. Is it comprehensive? Nah. Is it a list of the usual weapons that would come up in the list? Yup.

Silver Crusade

Depends on the campaign. Expecting traps? Rogue. Purely combat focused? Ninja. Somewhere in between? Well, what about the rest of the group? Fuji apples and Granny Smith apples (instead of apples and oranges) comparison.

Personally, the ability to disable magical traps is something I feel can't be overestimated, but then again, I have GM's who are fond of 'glyph of warding, Poison, Con damage' and other, meaner, variants. (Such as one BBEG that the PC's found out about, found where, and then found out what his primary defense was -a permanent, reseting Symbol of Death that was warded to hit everything in the room but the BBEG-and decided 'oooh heck no, no way can we get that guy').

However, the ki-invisibility is as good as you make it, much like a ring of invisibility. It's mostly a flavor thing, with a few key mechanical differences. A rogue can, with the 'ninja talent' rogue talent, gain much of the Ninja specialties, although the Ninja is, of course, going to be better at his own specialty.

YMMV. No one quite wins overall, they're just different. Again, comes down to the individual circumstances.

Silver Crusade

Make it Mithral? Or Darkleaf, for hide...

Silver Crusade

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Spell Recall from Magus. Especially Improved Spell Recall...

Ranged Legerdemain from arcane trickster. I'm going to try to screw up disabling that trap, set it off from 30 feet! Unless it's resetting one, but then I can watch it, and get an knowledge engineering check to figure that out...

Silver Crusade

Fighter mooks, two handed weapons, and sunder builds. They will probably only get one swing apiece, but the PC's very quickly become cautious about everything :)

Silver Crusade

A library. Had a wizard once who carried a full library, shelves and all, of every book (regardless of whether or not it was magical) that he came across in his BoH.

Had a fellow pc once who was heavily into necromancy who carried a type IV just for corpses, and another type IV for animated corpses... Vampire strength bonus and a belt came in handy for him.

A ballista. Had a Warforged arcane trickster who invested in skills for siege weapons, and then kept a ballista readied (with blankets tied around the spearheads). He ran into rust monsters, dropped the bag and dived into the bag and wheeled the ballista to the front. Refused to leave the bag until the rest of the party dealt with the beasties.

Silver Crusade

Getting back on the right number, tiny is right.

66. Reviewing the paybook. Lots of dead mooks at the protaganist's hands means plenty of money alloted for salary is now available for addtional traps.

67. Reviewing various illusions a potential recruit is capable of creating, leading our scrying fellows to believe he now has several pet juvenile dragons.

68. Feeding his pet dragon.

69. Ordering his new servants to clean up his new pet, named Fluffy. Fluffy happens to be off screen and an Iron Golem.

70. Admiring a new vintage from a protaganist hometown.

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