I honestly think it would be fine for one end of a double bladed sword to be a black blade. I know rules lawyers will stare down their nose at me for that, but I still think it's a neat idea.
Now I'm thinking of a Gestalt character who ends up with Blackblade twice, so I can have a double sword that argues with itself.
*pushes his glasses higher on his nose*
Sir, you cannot gestalt the same class twice. Your character is invalid.
Arcanist also gets a bladebound archetype.
LoneKnave wrote: Arcanist also gets a bladebound archetype. Really? I thought it was a wizard/sorcerer mix, didn't know it had magus too. Can it take hexes? Also, and this is getting off point, wouldn't the "you cannot have any familiar, A.C., etc." line stop you from getting a second black blade?
Yeah, it's pretty weird.
I double checked, it actually works. The Bladebound Magus only stops you from having a familiar. The (Blade Adept) Arcanist blackblade counts as a bound item, but not a familiar.
The idea of a Blackblade Axe-Musket is just so cool, it deserves to be able to be done. Whether the blackblade's abilities would work or not with the musket part is a very good question..
To do it justice, you'd really need a level of Gunslinger to pull it off. If I was doing this from first level, I'd take the Gunslinger level first, and then go into Magus Blackblade afterwards..
Someone mentioned the whole Bastard sword thing upthread. I thought that came out as "if you're using it two handed, it's a two handed weapon, if you're using one handed, it's a one handed weapon".
Did I get that wrong?
as much fun as two black blades sounds: if you read into the black blade section, they resent the wielder using any other intelligent items. the two would end up being mortal enemies. more than likely they would either both stop functioning for the user while he still had possession of the other, or on a more extreme note, they would try to kill each other, and in doing so probably injure or kill the user....
...all that said. i love the idea of a character being driven mad by the constant bickering he is forced to her inside his head because his weapons wont stop arguing with each other!
To support the axe-musket being a double weapon, look at the swordcane pistol, which is effectively a parallel weapon. It says to it as a double weapon for magical weapon purposes. I think it would be fair to extend that to all the combination melee weapons/firearms.
Shimesen wrote: as much fun as two black blades sounds: if you read into the black blade section, they resent the wielder using any other intelligent items. the two would end up being mortal enemies. more than likely they would either both stop functioning for the user while he still had possession of the other, or on a more extreme note, they would try to kill each other, and in doing so probably injure or kill the user....
...all that said. i love the idea of a character being driven mad by the constant bickering he is forced to her inside his head because his weapons wont stop arguing with each other!
I guess that just makes it that much more interesting to have each end of a double-sword be a blackblade... each is in denial and believes itself to be just a normal Longsword and refuses to acknowledge the other end of the blade.
Alternatively, they could be like Agni&Rudra
ok, so i am gonna take this 2 Blackblade thing into a new thread. i'm actually going to try to build this thing. perhaps those interested could give some beedback.
Maybe it can, or can't, be a Blackblade, but does it still count as an One-handed Slashing weapon, when used as a Battle Axe?
blackbloodtroll wrote: Maybe it can, or can't, be a Blackblade, but does it still count as an One-handed Slashing weapon, when used as a Battle Axe? I'm inclined to say yes. It would certainly be a slashing weapon but I could see an argument that it would remain a two-handed weapon.
I guess a better question is:
Does a Axe Musket, count as a Battleaxe, when wielded as a Battleaxe?
That sounds silly, but there are things like Weapon Focus, that may, or may not apply.
blackbloodtroll wrote: I guess a better question is:
Does a Axe Musket, count as a Battleaxe, when wielded as a Battleaxe?
That sounds silly, but there are things like Weapon Focus, that may, or may not apply.
I wouldn't think Weapon Focus (Battleaxe) would apply but Weapon Focus (Axe Musket) would apply to ranged and Melee attacks.
So, would it qualify for Slashing Grace?
blackbloodtroll wrote: So, would it qualify for Slashing Grace? I would certainly allow it but I'm not 100% sure on the RAW. I believe at its base it is a two-handed firearm. You can use it as a battleaxe in Melee but I don't know if you can use it as a battleaxe to qualify for feats.
The Axe Musket is really terrible, as a Firearm, but it is really cool.
I wish there was more clarity on how to handle it with the rules.
blackbloodtroll wrote: The Axe Musket is really terrible, as a Firearm, but it is really cool.
I wish there was more clarity on how to handle it with the rules.
I think we can actually agree on that.
I feel like it should be run like the Scorpion Whip.
When used like a Battleaxe, it should be treated like one.
I just don't know if RAW supports that.
I worry if this goes much further things might turn out like the Sword Not To Be Named's discussion a while back. Anyone willing to be banned over this?
Ipslore the Red wrote: I worry if this goes much further things might turn out like the Sword Not To Be Named's discussion a while back. Anyone willing to be banned over this? This one? No, but I doubt that will happen with this one.
By the way, that was me, along with an angry email to not speak of said "Sword Not To Be Named".
The Dev responsible is no longer a Paizo employee, so I have little to fear.
hmm, so, okay, an axe musket black blade is weird, because it's either sometimes a two-handed firearm and a one-handed melee weapon.
how about a sword cane pistol black blade? A sword cane can be a black blade no problem, and it's always a one-handed weapon. seems fine to me: the black blade is intelligent and gets enchanted, etc, and the gun part isn't and doesn't (unless you pour money into it)
is there an archetype or power that lets you put spell storing on bullets?
If there's a 'two blackblades' thread, can someone link it? I'm want to see where that conversation goes. :)
Sword cane pistol does B and P.
Not a valid option for Blackblade.
Now, a Dagger pistol, may, or may not.
When it comes to use and qualifying for feats/abilities, it would make logical sense that using the Axe Musket as a Battleaxe counts for the purpose of feats requiring a one-handed and/or slashing weapon or things like Weapon Focus. So Weapon Focus: Battleaxe would give you a +1 attack bonus when using an Axe Musket, but only for the melee attacks while Weapon Focus: Axe Musket would apply both to use as a musket as well as use as a Battle Axe. A Magus could Spell combat with an Axe Musket, but only making melee attacks with it as a Battle Axe. However, making it into a Blackblade or similar "physical item" quality restrictions would be a no-go for the same reason you can't say, "oh, since I'm using my Bastard Sword as a two-handed martial weapon due to lack of proficiency, it has the HP of a two-handed weapon instead of a one-handed weapon." Likewise, if you had, say, Jotungrip or a similar ability that lets you wield a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon, that wouldn't qualify your Greatsword as a valid Blackblade because it must qualify as an appropriate weapon in its own right; not just for wielding purposes. Since there's no provision in Intelligent items for just one head of a double weapon (or virtual double weapon for the purpose of enhancements and construction as with the melee/firearm hybrids) to be made intelligent (intelligent items are all or nothing), the fact that the Axe Musket functions as both weapons doesn't make it count as both weapons for construction or enhancement purposes.
Spell Storing? Bullets? Not off the top of my head. I just wanted to ask something similar, as I've been considering a sword cane pistol Blackblade/Kensai and Gunslinger multiclass hybrid build as a theme character for awhile now. Thematically trying to style after Roman Torchwick from RWBY, and mechanically trying to be able to cover melee and ranged combat at the same time. (Yes, I'm aware the archetype name is Bladebound, not Blackblade, but darn it I can never think of it as the 'bladebound' archetype). And if need be for RAW, I could easily change it to the dagger version *shrug*.
More or less, I would think that the magus iconic abilities -spell striking, spell combat, etc- would only apply to wielding the blade of the sword cane pistol, but I couldn't think of anything, reading descriptions, that would prevent a Kensai Bladebound from using Perfect Strike with a bladebound Dagger Pistol?
The chosen weapon is the dagger pistol itself in this example. It is a double weapon, ergo both ends count as the same weapon for proficiency and feats, essentially for everything besides enchanting, both ends are the same weapon, are they not? So could not a Kensai bladebound with a dagger pistol use Perfect Strike with the firearm aspect of the weapon?
After all, when I was reading up on the subject, no where that I could find in the description and rules of Double Weapons state that a double weapon is always a two-handed weapon. Presumably the vast majority ARE such, as 'duh', most such weapons are quite clearly described as needing two hands in their descriptions (which in itself, isn't a Rule, perhaps, but is a strong guideline to always conside I feel) but my point is: RAW, Double weapons are not necessarily two-handed weapons, as far as I could find. If there is a line I overlooked, someone please point it out to me.
So with this, quite likely a corner case example, could one build such? Kensai/Blade bound Magus wielding a Dagger Pistol as his chosen weapon? Using Perfect Strike with both blade and pistol aspects?
Natrim wrote: The chosen weapon is the dagger pistol itself in this example. It is a double weapon, ergo both ends count as the same weapon for proficiency and feats, essentially for everything besides enchanting, both ends are the same weapon, are they not? So could not a Kensai bladebound with a dagger pistol use Perfect Strike with the firearm aspect of the weapon? No because Precise Strike concerns Use, not item properties. A Longsword, for instance, is a one-handed slashing weapon. Consequently, it can be used as a one-handed slashing weapon (by a creature for which it is properly sized). You can apply two hands to it, but it's still a one-handed weapon as far as use as well as rules elements concerning it as an object. So for a properly sized Longsword, item properties happen to mesh up 100% with use properties. But if a Medium creature got a hold of a Large Longsword, things get a bit complicated. For rules elements concerning it as an object, it's still a one-handed slashing weapon. However, for rules concerning its use/wielding, it is used as a two-handed slashing weapon. Properties as an object and properties of use are different and, though they may agree 90% of the time, they still must be considered separately for just such situations as this. The Dagger Pistol is a one-handed firearm when considered as an item. But as far as use/wielding goes, it can be used as either a one-handed firearm or a light melee weapon. Here, you can see that use doesn't match up completely with item properties. Precise Strike requires the use of a light or one-handed piercing weapon. The Dagger Pistol, as an item, is a one-handed firearm but can be used as either a one-handed firearm or a light piercing melee weapon. You can only use Precise Strike when using it as a dagger and that doesn't translate over to using it as a firearm. Likewise, if you have a weapon that deals Bludgeoning or Piercing damage, and put Keen on it, you'd only benefit from the Keen's increased crit range when dealing piercing damage. If you switch to Bludgeoning damage to defeat DR/Bludgeoning, you lose the benefit of Keen for such attacks; despite the fact that some uses of the weapon would qualify for Keen, all of them do not.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Sword cane pistol does B and P.
Not a valid option for Blackblade.
Now, a Dagger pistol, may, or may not.
Ultimate Magic wrote: A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. I did check, you know!
You know, I also checked, and it looks like you can combine bladebound with myrmidarch, and shoot shocking grasps at bad guys with your gunblade.
whee!!
Well, that would have to mean a Sword Cane Pistol, counts as a Sword Cane.
Even that is not fully clear.
I would like it to be, and would rule that it did in my game, but I just not sure if RAW fully agrees with me.
Kazaan wrote: Natrim wrote: The chosen weapon is the dagger pistol itself in this example. It is a double weapon, ergo both ends count as the same weapon for proficiency and feats, essentially for everything besides enchanting, both ends are the same weapon, are they not? So could not a Kensai bladebound with a dagger pistol use Perfect Strike with the firearm aspect of the weapon? No because Precise Strike concerns Use, not item properties. A Longsword, for instance, is a one-handed slashing weapon. Consequently, it can be used as a one-handed slashing weapon (by a creature for which it is properly sized). You can apply two hands to it, but it's still a one-handed weapon as far as use as well as rules elements concerning it as an object. So for a properly sized Longsword, item properties happen to mesh up 100% with use properties. But if a Medium creature got a hold of a Large Longsword, things get a bit complicated. For rules elements concerning it as an object, it's still a one-handed slashing weapon. However, for rules concerning its use/wielding, it is used as a two-handed slashing weapon. Properties as an object and properties of use are different and, though they may agree 90% of the time, they still must be considered separately for just such situations as this. The Dagger Pistol is a one-handed firearm when considered as an item. But as far as use/wielding goes, it can be used as either a one-handed firearm or a light melee weapon. Here, you can see that use doesn't match up completely with item properties. Precise Strike requires the use of a light or one-handed piercing weapon. The Dagger Pistol, as an item, is a one-handed firearm but can be used as either a one-handed firearm or a light piercing melee weapon. You can only use Precise Strike when using it as a dagger and that doesn't translate over to using it as a firearm. Likewise, if you have a weapon that deals Bludgeoning or Piercing damage, and put Keen on it, you'd only benefit from the... For this discussion, I am slightly confused in why you used the examples you did. Precise Strike, the feat and the ability with that name (Teamwork feat and the Duelist PrC ability) do not mention use or properties or wielding or anything of the sort.
If you mean 'Perfect Strike', the Kensai class ability of which I asked? It only specifies the Kensai's chosen weapon must be used. Which, in turn, is "A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice.". No limitations on use or size or properties besides 1) melee, and 2) martial or exotic. There's nothing about a light or one handed weapon mentioned.
Now, mechanically, this wouldn't be all that much here. A Coat Pistol, medium sized, is a single d4 of damage. Spending a point from an arcane pool to make it do...4! DAMAGE!! Is a underwhelming and poor utilization of those limited arcane pool points. Granted, if rolling a crit, turning a x3 into an x4 for 2 points IS rather nifty and probably worthwhile use of points, but that is something we generally don't try to build our expectations around, expecting a crit on a 20 only crit range. Also, this is at best a backup option for the character, given that range increment of... 10ft. Still, overall, a rather underwhelming build, and my curiosity is more for an idea then an attempt to...build the next super-martial-champion or whatever.
Also, didn't a dev clarify on the 'weapons that do more then one type of damage' debate that effects like Keen DO stack, in the example of the morningstar? That for determining the effects of DR, one went with the result that favored the weapon's wielder? If your inclusion of the word "or" was to delineate the difference between the damage type of the blade of the dagger/cane-sword and that of the bullet, well that would fall under the previously acknowledged caveat that both ends of a double weapon count separately for enchanting purposes. So...yeah. I'll re-admit to being confused at the examples again.
(Also apologies for any rudeness, I'm in the middle of moving and going back to college. Just a wee bit busy and stressed as you can imagine :).
we are discussing Precise Strike, the swashbuckler deed.
Shimesen wrote: we are discussing Precise Strike, the swashbuckler deed. Indeed!
blackbloodtroll wrote: Shimesen wrote: we are discussing Precise Strike, the swashbuckler deed. Indeed! very punny bbt, very punny...
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