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So, in a every other week game (next session this Friday), we recently became aware that the somewhat-evil corrupt self-serving bloated empire that we are currently located in may actually be an evil corrupt self-serving bloated empire.
We were all shocked of course.
It came about when a man who was crusading quietly for political reform was assassinated (By a Succubus), and we acquired some of his information from his adopted daughter (Parents had likely been executed by said Empire).
We had about 8 players present, but as usual, 3-4 of them dominated the conversation.
The information pointed out a ruined tower that would likely have more information we could use, perhaps even to confirm or refute what we had just learned (I'm perhaps oversimplifying things, but trying to keep it short). I could see that the GM was trying to lead us to this dungeon, as this was the first session, I decided to comply to at least get the story rolling. I was the 3rd most experienced RPG player there. One player had been playing since 2nd edition, the other... seems to know anything and everything.
The Most experienced tried to convince the party to use Prestidigitation to make graffiti everywhere, spreading what we had learned in a two-fold plan. He claimed that we could then find out who is behind this by finding the person most agitated by this action, and we would get the added benefit of causing the cities populous to become further disgruntled against the Government, and possibly more than that.
The second most experienced (The player who had been playing from 2nd edition) wanted to round up a mob and go to the White Tower, the cities version of the Tower of London and the Pentagon. And throw a holy Symbol of Sarenae (SP) (A god whose worship had been banned from this city, and possession of her symbol was considered Treason) into the tower, when it went up in flames as the Tower was likely unhallowed ground (According to the player). He said if it didn't, he'd use magic to make sure it did. Thus proving that the government is evil and paving the way for a possible revolution/ouster of the current imperial government.
Did I mention we're all level 3? Yeah, we're level 3.
We called it to a vote, and the Party voted to go to the ruined Tower for the likely dungeon crawl.
Both experienced player's were annoyed and frustrated that their plans had not been utilized, and the second most experienced was thinking of having his character go off and do his plan without the rest of the party.
I made sure to not comment on their plans at the time, and afterward I tried to make them see that their plans had been risky, overly complex, and based off of assumptions that may or may not have any logical basis. The most experienced shrugged it off, and while still irritated was willing to move on. The second I made no headway with, and I think may actually go for the his plan anyways (I give him about 2 in 5 odds max of doing that, maybe 1 in 5).
I naturally (IRL) have a CHA that's pretty high when it comes to Diplomacy and Mediation (Which is good, because I'm not a particularly good looking individual XD), the biggest reason why their plans failed the vote was because I made them fail the vote. The party was fairly evenly split between the two plans till I spoke up as the "Mediating reasonable third party". I pointed out that we didn't really have enough information, and it was all from one source (thus unconfirmed), we could likely go to this ruined tower to get more, that we could always come back with that information and implement one of the other two plans then. The rest of the party bailed on the first two plans, and went with my plan almost unanimously, and the GM's lightly trod path (Not quite a railroad XD). My plan seemed balanced, reasonable, and didn't exclude the other plans from future consideration, and appealed to the less experienced players anxieties towards taking sudden drastic actions. I had designed it to be that way. :/
Further information: After both of the experienced plans had been proposed, I asked the GM (This is his second campaign, his experience is both less than mine, and greater than mine, so roughly even) what the NPC's adopted daughter thought, and asked her opinion. He said that she was horrified at all this talk of violence, and didn't know what to think. I asked again a few times, and was able to pick up that the Gm had given us what information he was going to give us, everything pointed at that tower. And he had no idea what to do about the other two plans, but was willing to roll with it.
Questions:
Primary question: Do you you think those two other plans were wise?
Secondary question: Based off of what I pointed out above, do you think my handling of the situation went too far? I'm used to being the middle man in groups, should I have left any of that to the GM? Or as a party member was I within my rights?
Secondary question: If the Second player goes with his "Storm the castle" plan, what do you think our reaction should be?
Note: There is no drama from this, we're all good friends, and not letting stuff come between us. :)
well... party dynamics always vary from table to table and party to party, if your group is willing to put things to a vote (and your GM shows no signs of forcing you into/out of a specific course of action) then lobbying for the plan that seems best to you is perfectly normal/reasonable. if your character dumped Cha that might have been a great (missed) opportunity for roleplaying as you poorly argued the merits of a plan that was growing less popular each time you spoke, but other than that you were well within your bounds. if the GM wanted you to definitely go to the tower he would have found a way to get you there, and if your party is foolish enough to try to start a rebellion at 3rd level (with no evidence to sway anyone powerful enough to help) then some adviser or magistrate will show up and kill you all (and any rioting citizens) with a single fireball or negative channel or whatever.
I think it really depends on the campaign and the plans of the gm. If the gm planned for you to start a revolution, great. If he didnt, and wanted you guys to go into the dungeon already, then you probably prevented a significant headache for the gm.
Usually its a good idea to talk as a group about what the gm is trying to accomplish with the game and what style he hopes to go with. Its also a good idea to take the hooks the gm gives you, its kind of rude in my opinion to deliberately dodge all the work the dm did planning that tower.
well... party dynamics always vary from table to table and party to party, if your group is willing to put things to a vote (and your GM shows no signs of forcing you into/out of a specific course of action) then lobbying for the plan that seems best to you is perfectly normal/reasonable. if your character dumped Cha that might have been a great (missed) opportunity for roleplaying as you poorly argued the merits of a plan that was growing less popular each time you spoke, but other than that you were well within your bounds. if the GM wanted you to definitely go to the tower he would have found a way to get you there, and if your party is foolish enough to try to start a rebellion at 3rd level (with no evidence to sway anyone powerful enough to help) then some adviser or magistrate will show up and kill you all (and any rioting citizens) with a single fireball or negative channel or whatever.
My character actually has very good charisma, but the idea of being reasonable and using caution is normally anathema to her (Playing her CG very Leroy like), I did RP (Stood up and used motions and actions too... God, in hindsight, why did I do that XD) it though. :P She struggled through the words like she was trying to speak a foreign language, and afterward she needed a drink to wash the words from her mouth or she'd have been sick. I play her as personally reckless, but responsible to her party mates. Oddly, I was the only player who tried to keep it mostly in character, most of the rest were more OOC than IC.
I like that idea though, if she had had poor cha, arguing FOR one of the risky plans, and getting worse and worse at it, highlighting it's risks and dangers... And if done right, wouldn't cause any problems either.
God, that sounds hilarious. I can be subtle, but I'm usually pretty direct in my subtle-ness (HAHA, contradictions!), going round about like that is something I likely would never have thought of.
As for the reactions to the plans... that's roughly what I assumed would happen. :/
I'm sure the empire has some level 20 equivalents or higher lying around waiting for something like that. Hell, a level 10 would take us. but, if that's what's required of us, my character would lead the Charge in, I just want to try and get a better picture of what's going on first.
I'm still surprised at their plans, especially considering who came up with them. I keep hoping that I missed some element or caveat to their plans that had made them more viable. But there isn't one.
I think it really depends on the campaign and the plans of the gm. If the gm planned for you to start a revolution, great. If he didnt, and wanted you guys to go into the dungeon already, then you probably prevented a significant headache for the gm.
Usually its a good idea to talk as a group about what the gm is trying to accomplish with the game and what style he hopes to go with. Its also a good idea to take the hooks the gm gives you, its kind of rude in my opinion to deliberately dodge all the work the dm did planning that tower.
As near as I can tell, he didn't plan on a revolution (Especially using a level 3 party, against the largest and most corrupt empire in existence), but he might have a better poker face that I thought, so it's still possible. I haven't talked to him about it, because I already have enough OOC knowledge I'm hiding from my character, don't want to add to the list XD
The second part, is an excellent idea, and I will most definitely talk to the GM about doing something like that. I'd like to bring it up with him first, just in case he thinks we have enough information/knowledge. Don't want to accidentally cause a Party versus DM event XD
The graffiti plan seems almost reasonable, as long as you don't get caught doing it. If the bad guys have succubi, they may also have magic to show them who made the graffiti. The problem is you would have to watch the graffiti to see who gets offended by it, and then they could spot you watching them.
Attacking the seat of government may be both premature (maybe the government is legit, and something else is at work here) and suicidal. Maybe the Sarenrae cleric wants to become a martyr?
Just because someone is a long time gamer, doesn't mean they have the best judgement. Maybe they are role playing characters with poor judgement.
The graffiti plan seems almost reasonable, as long as you don't get caught doing it. If the bad guys have succubi, they may also have magic to show them who made the graffiti. The problem is you would have to watch the graffiti to see who gets offended by it, and then they could spot you watching them.
Attacking the seat of government may be both premature (maybe the government is legit, and something else is at work here) and suicidal. Maybe the Sarenrae cleric wants to become a martyr?
Just because someone is a long time gamer, doesn't mean they have the best judgement. Maybe they are role playing characters with poor judgement.
Yeah, the first part of the Graffiti plan did seem reasonable. Of the two, it was the one I favored. It was his "And then" part that got me, there isn't necessarily any correlation between who gets the maddest/most agitated about it, and who dun it. And the GM could rule that the city populous just got more cynical about our "Conspiracy theories" instead of disgruntled at the government. Too many variables, not enough information/constants. Hell, the most pissed off guy could just be the City Janitor for all we know. we also don't know how far the conspiracy goes, or what resources they have available. Could be that they control every aspect of the government, in which case, s!~%.
Oh, no he wasn't a cleric, he was a Wizard. No, I have no idea what so ever where we would get the holy symbol. And he's pretty sure he can take care of himself, having seen how powerful he made his character... well, he could for a round or two, which is saying something.
UPDATE:
Just talked to Player 2 today, and he's seriously thinking about having his character do the holy symbol plan, on his own.
GAH, help?
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Just talked to Player 2 today, and he's seriously thinking about having his character do the holy symbol plan, on his own.
GAH, help?
Wish him the best of luck as he parts ways from the rest of the party and wait for his re-rolled character to arrive.
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First off, it sounds like a fascinating campaign. Second, I see nothing you did wrong, and in fact your influence over the other players in this case probably saved the GM a lot of unplanned (or just possibly premature) headaches.
Then there are the plans themselves... they are both laden with an extra helping of assumption. While they both might be valid, they both presume an awful lot and one would almost certainly end in the characters deaths.
UPDATE:Just talked to Player 2 today, and he's seriously thinking about having his character do the holy symbol plan, on his own.
GAH, help?
OK, so on a wild assumption that their holy symbol will burst into flames, they plan to storm the Bastille alone? Perhaps ask to be written into their will first?
Seriously I would impress upon the character that;
1) His belief in what will happen has no proven basis.
1a) If he "ensures" that it happens(the burning holy symbol), it could still be explained away as a "protective ward against outlaw magic/gods/etc, in which case he accomplished nothing. Or the "Evil Empire" that has made use of a Succubi Assassin most likely has the magic to prevent his attempt, or to discredit it, or both.
2) He is a level 3 outlaw priest (Divine Aura of good) planning to storm the seat of power of an Evil(big "E") empire, and even if they do not have any form of divine or arcane defenses in place, they most likely have at least some form of honor guards on site who would most likely skewer him/her before he/she made it up the steps.
3) That while heroes, perhaps the party would be better served trying to find out if there is an active resistance or underground or revolutionary brotherhood or what have you already in place, because they would probably have more information, more connections and definitely a better handle on the pulse of the population.
4) His act could cause a worse backlash against the players and even the regular population of the city.
Heroic acts are the hallmark of fantasy, but there is a fine line between heroism and foolhardiness.
First of all when the worship of Serenrae is outlawed it's a very good indicator that we are talking about a very very EVIL nation (or at least rulers), keep in mind that (in Golarion) even Cheliax, decades after House Thrune rose to power, still hasn't outlawed the worship of Desna (a CG deity) and there is no legal problem whatsoever with Serenrae (yet).
Secondly, the first part of the graffiti plan seems ok although the second part of the plan (the unrest thing) most likely won't happen just by graffiti. The holy symbol plan is suicide, sure it might work in the sense of inciting unrest, even starting a rebbelion, but the one who enact this plan will surely die in very very horrible ways, again it's suicide.
Ask both players what their plans are once the revolution begins. Do they just want pure anarchy and everyone to fend for themselves? If not, ask them how they'll organize the resistance, what their demands are and, if by SOME stretch of the imagination they actually succeed at toppling a corrupt government, how are they going to effect a more positive ruling body.
First of all when the worship of Serenrae is outlawed it's a very good indicator that we are talking about a very very EVIL nation (or at least rulers), keep in mind that (in Golarion) even Cheliax, decades after House Thrune rose to power, still hasn't outlawed the worship of Desna (a CG deity) and there is no legal problem whatsoever with Serenrae (yet).
Often banning the worship of a deity is more about that deity's followers than the deity itself. I can't access any of my books or the wiki from where I am, but isn't Sarenrae worship more or less banned in Taldor due to their feud with the other nation in the area whose name I can't recall?
That would make it not necessarily an evil nation for banning her worship.
First of all when the worship of Serenrae is outlawed it's a very good indicator that we are talking about a very very EVIL nation (or at least rulers), keep in mind that (in Golarion) even Cheliax, decades after House Thrune rose to power, still hasn't outlawed the worship of Desna (a CG deity) and there is no legal problem whatsoever with Serenrae (yet).Often banning the worship of a deity is more about that deity's followers than the deity itself. I can't access any of my books or the wiki from where I am, but isn't Sarenrae worship more or less banned in Taldor due to their feud with the other nation in the area whose name I can't recall?
That would make it not necessarily an evil nation for banning her worship.
Yes it was outlawed 185 years ago and while it's technically still outlawed outside of the big cities the worship of Sarenrae isn't hunted.
But yes your point stands true, sorry for my eariler jumpy coclusion.
Player 2 sounds like he just wants to do something different. Some players are like this, even experienced ones. Sometimes they want to really get into their RP and other times it's just to mess with the flow of the adventure. Either way, in this particular situation, he's doing nothing useful.
Best case scenario: Player 2 goes to the white tower and throws down their burning holy symbol. Some guards raise a few eyebrows and shrug. One of them probably goes over and stomps it out, and tells the player to be on their way. If they make a big deal about it they get arrested for awhile. Unless these are some very stupid guards, they will handle the situation without just jumping up and killing the offender.
After all why make a bad situation worse, their lazy, let their superior officer deal with it.
Worst case scenario: Player 2 goes to the white tower and throws down their burning holy symbol. The guards attack immediately and kill the lvl 3 character very quickly. The locals gasp and go "Wow that was stupid! Glad I don't worship whatever diety that was."
Case closed and nothing really gets resolved except handing Player 2 another character sheet. Perhaps you should mention to the GM that they should offer some friendly NPC advise to Player 2. Being a Martyr is only purposeful if they have some notoriety. A Lvl 3 character, doesn't really shine as being a pinnacle of their diety. They should go out and see how things really work (Adventure). Then one day if they are called to lay down their life for their diety, it will be with a purpose.
1) His belief in what will happen has no proven basis.
1a) If he "ensures" that it happens(the burning holy symbol), it could still be explained away as a "protective ward against outlaw magic/gods/etc, in which case he accomplished nothing. Or the "Evil Empire" that has made use of a Succubi Assassin most likely has the magic to prevent his attempt, or to discredit it, or both.2) He is a level 3 outlaw priest (Divine Aura of good) planning to storm the seat of power of an Evil(big "E") empire, and even if they do not have any form of divine or arcane defenses in place, they most likely have at least some form of honor guards on site who would most likely skewer him/her before he/she made it up the steps.
He's a Wizard, but going to take some levels in Cleric soon, and he doesn't worship Saranae.
Yeah, on his own, he wouldn't make it through that, even with the party we wouldn't, but then the GM would feel obliged to save us from ourselves. It being the second session and all (Only had one GM ever kill someone that early, oddly enough it was the Player who came up with this plan).
3) That while heroes, perhaps the party would be better served trying to find out if there is an active resistance or underground or revolutionary brotherhood or what have you already in place, because they would probably have more information, more connections and definitely a better handle on the pulse of the population.
Contact the resistance, nice. How did none of us think of that? XD
Hell, I just re-read the Misborn series!
4) His act could cause a worse backlash against the players and even the regular population of the city.
Heroic acts are the hallmark of fantasy, but there is a fine line between heroism and foolhardiness.
I was really worried about that part, screwing things up and essentially having to flee the city, permanently.
First of all when the worship of Serenrae is outlawed it's a very good indicator that we are talking about a very very EVIL nation (or at least rulers), keep in mind that (in Golarion) even Cheliax, decades after House Thrune rose to power, still hasn't outlawed the worship of Desna (a CG deity) and there is no legal problem whatsoever with Serenrae (yet).
Yeah, when the DM shared that bit, threw me for a loop.
"Huh, suddenly my character doesn't feel comfortable Bounty Hunting here..."
Ask both players what their plans are once the revolution begins. Do they just want pure anarchy and everyone to fend for themselves? If not, ask them how they'll organize the resistance, what their demands are and, if by SOME stretch of the imagination they actually succeed at toppling a corrupt government, how are they going to effect a more positive ruling body.
I actually did not ask, and they did not volunteer. I assumed they were going to play it by ear, I should have asked.
Will do so today, we're all going to The Hobbit midnight showing.
My first midnight showing! EEEEEEE!
Often banning the worship of a deity is more about that deity's followers than the deity itself. I can't access any of my books or the wiki from where I am, but isn't Sarenrae worship more or less banned in Taldor due to their feud with the other nation in the area whose name I can't recall?
That would make it not necessarily an evil nation for banning her worship.
SWHA? Taldor?!
That's the name of the Empire!
Holy crap, you sneaky sneaky DM!
Must resist looking up OOC knowledge... must resist...
I don't know how close the DM's version of Taldor is to the PF version, but suddenly his highly detailed maps have an explanation.
Gonna have to ask if I can look this up.
Player 2 sounds like he just wants to do something different. Some players are like this, even experienced ones. Sometimes they want to really get into their RP and other times it's just to mess with the flow of the adventure. Either way, in this particular situation, he's doing nothing useful.
Possible, maybe even likely. He does a lot of DMing, maybe he's just trying to relax as a player?
Case closed and nothing really gets resolved except handing Player 2 another character sheet. Perhaps you should mention to the GM that they should offer some friendly NPC advise to Player 2. Being a Martyr is only purposeful if they have some notoriety. A Lvl 3 character, doesn't really shine as being a pinnacle of their diety. They should go out and see how things really work (Adventure). Then one day if they are called to lay down their life for their diety, it will be with a purpose.
I just remembered he has a character rolled up in case his current one dies.
I swear, if he's suiciding intentionally...
Well, thanks for all the advice, and I hope this works. :)
SWHA? Taldor?!
That's the name of the Empire!
Holy crap, you sneaky sneaky DM!
Must resist looking up OOC knowledge... must resist...
I don't know how close the DM's version of Taldor is to the PF version, but suddenly his highly detailed maps have an explanation.
Gonna have to ask if I can look this up.
Oops. I seem to have overturned the pot of legumes. :P
If Player 2's PC is a wizard, I'm guessing he has no ranks in Knowledge-Religion (OK, he might, but I'll assume not). In which case he has no real basis for the belief that the symbol will go up in flames. Or any good way to tell whether the White Tower is unhallowed ground. It might just crack (...because it's fallen on the ground) or land in a puddle.
The guards are likely to just beat him up and chuck him in jail for a couple of days. If he resists, he might be maimed or killed. Or put in the stocks. It gives you an opportunity to mount a daring rescue, or just forces him to sit out the next session.
He's a Wizard, but going to take some levels in Cleric soon, and he doesn't worship Saranae.
Yeah, on his own, he wouldn't make it through that, even with the party we wouldn't, but then the GM would feel obliged to save us from ourselves. It being the second session and all (Only had one GM ever kill someone that early, oddly enough it was the Player who came up with this plan).
My very first character died in his first session. It is not a problem unless you let it be. If the experienced player's character dies that quick, it was either planned or very bad rolls.
Inform the GM that it is OK to be hard on the experienced players if they do stupid. That kind of player knows what to expect.
Player 2 sounds like he just wants to do something different. Some players are like this, even experienced ones. Sometimes they want to really get into their RP and other times it's just to mess with the flow of the adventure. Either way, in this particular situation, he's doing nothing useful.Possible, maybe even likely. He does a lot of DMing, maybe he's just trying to relax as a player?
Relaxing is using off-the wall ideas that have a non-zero chance of working. This does not sound like that.
Case closed and nothing really gets resolved except handing Player 2 another character sheet. Perhaps you should mention to the GM that they should offer some friendly NPC advise to Player 2. Being a Martyr is only purposeful if they have some notoriety. A Lvl 3 character, doesn't really shine as being a pinnacle of their diety. They should go out and see how things really work (Adventure). Then one day if they are called to lay down their life for their diety, it will be with a purpose.I just remembered he has a character rolled up in case his current one dies.
I swear, if he's suiciding intentionally...
Have the GM reward him by having his suicidal PC survive, but say minus a hand. Try being a caster with only one hand, or one eye, or without a tongue. Whatever maiming is appropriate. Tell him this as he is pulling out his preplanned second character.
/cevah
Primary question: Do you you think those two other plans were wise?
To be entirely honest, no. Both have the potential to backfire in nasty ways, at very minimum by alerting the powers that be to the presence of saboteurs. There's also no assurances the populace would react in the way these two other players expect, even if (and that's a big "if") things go off without a hitch. It's equally likely that subversive attacks against the city would only serve to galvanize support for the regime.
Secondary question: Based off of what I pointed out above, do you think my handling of the situation went too far? I'm used to being the middle man in groups, should I have left any of that to the GM? Or as a party member was I within my rights?
What you did was entirely reasonable. You voiced an opinion (in-character) and resolved an inter-party argument non-violently. I see absolutely no issues.
Secondary question: If the Second player goes with his "Storm the castle" plan, what do you think our reaction should be?
First thoughts: do preliminary surveillance and various gather information checks to understand the defenses of the tower. Once you know what level of opposition to expect, double your expectactions.
I suspect at this point you can safely tell this character that he's b~+%!+& insane.
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First of all when the worship of Serenrae is outlawed it's a very good indicator that we are talking about a very very EVIL nation (or at least rulers), keep in mind that (in Golarion) even Cheliax, decades after House Thrune rose to power, still hasn't outlawed the worship of Desna (a CG deity) and there is no legal problem whatsoever with Serenrae (yet).Often banning the worship of a deity is more about that deity's followers than the deity itself. I can't access any of my books or the wiki from where I am, but isn't Sarenrae worship more or less banned in Taldor due to their feud with the other nation in the area whose name I can't recall?
That would make it not necessarily an evil nation for banning her worship.
Yes it was outlawed 185 years ago and while it's technically still outlawed outside of the big cities the worship of Sarenrae isn't hunted.
But yes your point stands true, sorry for my eariler jumpy coclusion.
And the name of the other nation is Osirion, themed toward an Egyptianish ambiance.
Of course, your GM might have changed it into a real Evil Empire, although I would reserve that designation for either Cheliax or Geb, for starters.
Ah, Geb. That's a place to go crusading in, where the rulers are all intelligent undead, and humans are farmed for food...
When any wealthy and powerful organization is involved, don't do anything that any sort of Divination might reveal or link back to you.
If any of the Big Bads are casters, there's a good chance that they can afford to cast a spell or use an item once a day to slowly zero in on the people throwing wrenches into their plan.
A party of would-be revolutionaries has to either move extremely quickly, or be extremely clever and stealthy to pull off any sort of anti-government manuring in any setting where a quick combination of Commune, Locate Person, Clairvoyance and Teleport can drop a pile of elite guards into a party's safehouse while they are recovering from their last terrorist action.
Stay under the radar, and take completely over the top precautions against divination magic. When it comes to surveillance paranoia in a world where the people running the show are liches with crystal balls, too much is never enough.
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First of all when the worship of Serenrae is outlawed it's a very good indicator that we are talking about a very very EVIL nation (or at least rulers), keep in mind that (in Golarion) even Cheliax, decades after House Thrune rose to power, still hasn't outlawed the worship of Desna (a CG deity) and there is no legal problem whatsoever with Serenrae (yet).Often banning the worship of a deity is more about that deity's followers than the deity itself. I can't access any of my books or the wiki from where I am, but isn't Sarenrae worship more or less banned in Taldor due to their feud with the other nation in the area whose name I can't recall?
That would make it not necessarily an evil nation for banning her worship.
Yes it was outlawed 185 years ago and while it's technically still outlawed outside of the big cities the worship of Sarenrae isn't hunted.
But yes your point stands true, sorry for my eariler jumpy coclusion.And the name of the other nation is Osirion, themed toward an Egyptianish ambiance.
** spoiler omitted **
Actually, it was Qadira, where worship of Sarenrae is pretty much the religion of state. And how much Sarenrae's followers are persecuted in Taldor rests very much in the hands of the GM, following the criterion of "What fits my story best" ;-)
I think your plan was the soundest... the other two.. while bold and could produce interesting results, just hands the GM too much power to TPK you all.
If any one of them insist on their plan, let them enable it themselves, distance yourself as much as possible to avoid any blowback.
Await their next characters. Hopefully they will act smarter.
Two experienced players should realize (heck, any thoughtful person should probably realize):
1. Any government (or supporters thereof) who use succubi as minions have powerful magic, and, obviously, powerful minions.
2. At level 3, they won't overthrow an empire. Period. They need more levels, more supporters, more allies, and more resources in general.
3. Rebellions are not good for anyone (the aftermath may be good for some, but during the rebellion, it's bad for everyone).
Conclusions they should draw from this:
A. Point 1 & 2: They are not powerful enough to face this powerful magic or these powerful minions. They will die. Maybe not on the first day of their play, but soon enough, if their plan is even close to successful, those powerful magicians will use their powerful magic to figure out who is causing the trouble, and then that's when the powerful minions show up to TPK these low-level miscreants - long before they acquire sufficient resources to deal with this kind of trouble.
B. Point 3 by itself: The town becomes nearly useless during the rebellion. Very hard to buy new adventuring gear. Very hard to sell treasures the PCs find while adventuring. Very hard to do much of anything. Especially if they're lying low to avoid the government minions who will certainly be looking for the rabble-rousers.
C. Point 3 plus Conclusion B: Adventuring in or near a useless town is a bad idea. It's hard to get anything done. This means that leveling in or near this useless town is problematic. This also means that it's hard to gain any of the resources they'll need (gold, xp, gear, allies, information, etc.). Therefore they will want to go somewhere else to adventure and gain levels (and if they do, they might get some, gold, xp, gear, but they won't get allies or information that will help their long-term plans). And, as long as they are somewhere else, they aren't really able to do much to keep the rebellion going back home, so it will die out on its own, making the whole thing useless from the start.
All three conclusions together: Starting a rebellion NOW is suicidal, but even if they somehow survive, they have only made their job (gaining levels and eventually overthrowing a corrupt evil empire) vastly more difficult.
Summary: don't start any trouble now. It's a bad idea that will only make things worse.
Present that to your fellow players. See if they have meaningful counter-arguments. If they can rationally counterpoint that logic, then I say go with their plans.
Even better, include the GM in your discussion, and if the other players keep arguing, point out this final tidbit of metagaming logic:
"Our GM just heard all this, and the twinkle in his eye suggests he's going to use this stuff against us, so we better not stir up trouble until we're ready for it."
Now how can they refute that? ;)
Actually, it was Qadira, where worship of Sarenrae is pretty much the religion of state. And how much Sarenrae's followers are persecuted in Taldor rests very much in the hands of the GM, following the criterion of "What fits my story best" ;-)First of all when the worship of Serenrae is outlawed it's a very good indicator that we are talking about a very very EVIL nation (or at least rulers), keep in mind that (in Golarion) even Cheliax, decades after House Thrune rose to power, still hasn't outlawed the worship of Desna (a CG deity) and there is no legal problem whatsoever with Serenrae (yet).Often banning the worship of a deity is more about that deity's followers than the deity itself. I can't access any of my books or the wiki from where I am, but isn't Sarenrae worship more or less banned in Taldor due to their feud with the other nation in the area whose name I can't recall?
That would make it not necessarily an evil nation for banning her worship.
Yes it was outlawed 185 years ago and while it's technically still outlawed outside of the big cities the worship of Sarenrae isn't hunted.
But yes your point stands true, sorry for my eariler jumpy coclusion.And the name of the other nation is Osirion, themed toward an Egyptianish ambiance.
** spoiler omitted **
True but keep in mind that the worship of Sarenrae in Qadira isn't so dominant (as a religion of state) as is in some other countries devoted to a particular deity, Cheliax and Asmodeus or Nidal and Zon-Kuthon or even Mendev and Iomidae. And of course in Qadira the church of Sarenrae has other issues (shism about to happen, the nation's laws and policies aren't exactly kosher by Sarenrae etc.)
Oops. I seem to have overturned the pot of legumes. :P
Talked with the GM, and he's cool with me reading that information, as long as I remember that unless he confirms it, it's not necessarily true. Oh, and don't spontaneously use OOC knowledge, but that goes without saying.
Have the GM reward him by having his suicidal PC survive, but say minus a hand. Try being a caster with only one hand, or one eye, or without a tongue. Whatever maiming is appropriate. Tell him this as he is pulling out his preplanned second character.
That is eeeeeevil. XD
Talked with Player 2, and he's not going to actively try to kill his character, but if it does die, he has one ready. Prudent I guess.
Apparently he actually wanted to be captured as part of his plan, because he thought he could then find out more information while imprisoned (Talked with him last night while waiting for The Hobbit). Death was not what he was aiming for.
OP, you should just relax and enjoy your crawl and let the GM deal with the other players' plans.
Chances are he will find an interesting way to integrate them in the campaign without having the whole PC party killed ;-)
(Humming MST3K theme song)
Yeah, initially everything looked good, but Player 2 was getting a lot more worked up than he should have about his plan not being used. I generally fill the "Counselor" slot in our circle of friends, and have a tendency to try and smooth things over and keep things running as a result.
Everytime I do try to relax and not care in a game, stuff just starts going wrong, tones get raised, defenses brought up and arguments break out until I step in again. I certainly don't mind being the mediator, so that isn't a complaint, more a statement of... resignation?
Certainly it's not my job to intrude into the GM's domain, and I never want too. But preventing arguments between friends is always easier than stopping them once they've started.
If they do utilize a plan that I think is suicidal, I fully intend to leave it to the GM, nothing I can do after all.
But, if they do, my character is going to do her hardest to ensure it has every chance of success, and put everything she has into helping the party survive and win. Even if that means I have to roll up a new character because the rear guard didn't make it.
I also wonder, on what basis is he coming up with this 'if it's unhallowed, the holy symbol would catch fire' idea? I mean, I certainly don't recall anything like that in the spell description! (After all, that would be far too easy of a way to lock down and prevent enemy clerics from fighting effectively in one's 'home turf' if hallow/unhallow destroyed opposing clerical symbols!) Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but it certainly feels like something being 'pulled out of the air'.
I uh... I kinda didn't question that honestly. I trust their game knowledge, but now I'm curious.
SPOILER
Taldor is more decadent than evil. The former imperial governemt and country has fallen on hard times, and lost many of it scolonies. The government dreams of regaining its former glory, but mainly in vain.Of course, your GM might have changed it into a real Evil Empire, although I would reserve that designation for either Cheliax or Geb, for starters.
Ah, Geb. That's a place to go crusading in, where the rulers are all intelligent undead, and humans are farmed for food...
It's possible that he's changed it, or possible that he didn't and we just have a skewed view of it due to circumstances. Part of the reason I wanted to get more information, I was afraid we didn't have a complete picture. While my character likes rushing into things, she's learned through her job (Bounty Hunting) that having more information is never a bad thing.
(Adds Geb to places to avoid)
When any wealthy and powerful organization is involved, don't do anything that any sort of Divination might reveal or link back to you.
If any of the Big Bads are casters, there's a good chance that they can afford to cast a spell or use an item once a day to slowly zero in on the people throwing wrenches into their plan.
We just found out that our Party is being observed by a truly Epic Divination spell, but that it's source is no where near the city.
This may have been my fault.
In my defense, the crystal was shiny, and shiny is good. And I may have failed a will save.
The wizard was unhappy, and OOC we're pretty sure it's the group that's pissed off at him from his backstory (Which his character is assuming IC).
Actually, it was Qadira, where worship of Sarenrae is pretty much the religion of state. And how much Sarenrae's followers are persecuted in Taldor rests very much in the hands of the GM, following the criterion of "What fits my story best" ;-)
If all the information we've received is reliable (I know, I know XD), then it's some pretty hardcore persecution. The NPC we're now protecting had had her parents captured, tortured and executed. Their only crime was secretly being followers of Sarenae, which is classified as Treason.
"Our GM just heard all this, and the twinkle in his eye suggests he's going to use this stuff against us, so we better not stir up trouble until we're ready for it."
But giving the GM idea's and ammunition is what we're supposed to do! Right?
Right?
I'll add this too my quiver, if I deliver it funny enough, might sway some opinions. The analysis was very well done, but we're past the point where I could use it without being seen as being pushy. If I had though of it during the event itself, would have worked.
The GM is your friend. Trust the GM.
Praise him... praise him... praise him...
----
Session today, everything that could be said to the respective parties (Within reason) has been, so let's see how everything works out.
The first plan was so/so -- not horrible.
The second plan is like the first time the children in a school realize they outnumber the teachers and think they can overrun the school and have recess all day and cookies for lunch.
That is to say, a pipe dream without any real rationale or intelligence behind it.
Update: I could not make today's session, but looks like there were no issues related to anything posted here.
Instead, something else happened XD
Would these plans be wise?
Uhh... no. They're way beyond the party's power level and most of this doesn't pass the common sense test.
As a union organizer in real life, I can also tell you that raising a group of people to do collective action is not an easy thing. It's especially difficult when you don't know people well, when they have something to lose, when it requires a great deal of risk, and when it goes against their entire world view. And, at third level, I doubt your party knows the society well enough to pick out the community opinion leaders, who are not always the people with the biggest titles, let alone convince them to take on a revolution. Add in fighting supernatural opponents likely immune to your pitchforks and you're going to get a situation where your best result is people saying yes and then staying home on the day of action "because something came up."
As GM I would have required relatively high skill checks for this plan to even get off the ground. Failure would mean that people now regard your party as crackpots.
As for the graffiti thing... when was the last time graffiti persuaded you to do something? When was the last time that graffiti convinced you to change a deeply held belief? Or a billboard? And, even if you feel it's the magical medieval equivalent of spreading info on the internet, I can tell you that hacktivism works best when it requires a lot of people to do very, very little. Political messaging, in general, does its best work convincing the already convinced to go vote; it's much, much harder to convince the undecideds with sloganeering and pamphlets, which this might also be the magical medieval equivalent of.