Ok, so this one is complicated – I’ll try to be as clear as I can.
Fact is I don’t think I know what character I want to build, so I am looking for who would help me clarify my ideas.
Some basics:
- Playing in a Kingmaker game;
- Rolled stats - 18, 17, 17, 14, 15, 14 (yep, I know… Crazy rolls…)
- Starting at level 2
- Almost 100% sure all Pathfinder content is allowed [If Summoners are, I guess that opens the door :D]
What I am looking for:
- A martial character (melee is my preference)
- A resourceful character (skill wise)
- A versatile character (this is the real conundrum I guess – I am looking for a melee combatant, but as levels progress, I want him to be able to still make a difference and I guess the only real way to do this is adding some sort of spellcasting ability – either divine or arcane)
Let me try to elaborate on the versatility aspect a tad more – I think I want his chassis to be that of a “skill monkey” guy – the one that goes ahead and knows what is going on before anyone else does, the one that has an extensive underground of contacts, manages to gather details about adversaries, either through intimidation or Diplomacy – you all know what I mean.
As far as combat goes…
- I don’t expect him to be a frontliner, but would like him to be able to handle himself if it happens – maybe with one dedicated trick or feat line (like crane style-> wing-> riposte);
- Along the same line, I would like him to be the combatant that can be useful in a “normal combat situation” – flanking mooks for extra hit and damage, etc – my question here is, how valid is maneuvering (with Acrobatics for example) into flanking position as a tactic – for those more experienced than I am in these situations I ask: How often does this get you into more trouble than it’s worth (because, I mean… getting behind enemy lines can be… Well… Dangerous…)
- Apart from this, I would like this guy to be, in combat terms, the “problem solver” – getting through the mooks to harass (and in a perfect world, take down the caster in the back, or the archer, or the commander, or [add influential bad guy here, who stands behind his bodyguards making life miserable for the good guys];
- I want him to be an exceptional scout (stealth and Perception are clearly not enough, again maybe spellcasting should be involved);
After skulking around the forums for a while, it seems that the Arcane Trickster would be a great option for this, even though I haven’t fully assimilated all the ins and outs of the ways to get into that Prestige class – two main paths have caught my eye: Wiz/Rog/AT and Alch/Wiz/AT.
So my questions are:
- For those who have played ATs in the past – is he able to fulfil such a role? What hardships did you encounter? Did you go ranged or melee? Why?
- On the one hand, I get the Alchemist (Viv+etc) path to AT, but on the other I do not – Alchemists don’t really have Stealth as a class skill, right? And also they have like 4 skill ranks less per level than a rogue, so what is up with that? :D
- What is the real expected benefit from those 3 levels as Alchemist? Please be specific if possible – what extracts did you find more useful (Vanish? Detect Secret Doors?)
- How effective REALLY is sneak attack for a character wanting to fulfil the role described above – ok, so you skulk up to the bad guy, stab him once with Sneak Attack Damage + magic maybe (if you are an AT), then the bad guy turns around and… What next (this is the main disadvantage behind my inexperience with this kind of characters)? I vanish and vanish and vanish again, using it to keep on dealing Sneak Attack damage? I move away, throw a smoke bomb, stealth and come back? How does it work?
- How well does an AT scale as levels proceed? I mean, if he is mainly scout/assassin/combatant, he won’t really be focusing on feats such as Spell Focus or things like that will he – in the long run, his DCs will suck, which will make him a poor offensive caster, will it not?
- One other question that really gnaws at me – I have read many times – “Don’t be a rogue, be a ranger, or Alchemist, or this, or that…” – so my question to that is, has anyone done this successfully through higher levels, do they really remain relevant at higher levels, or the only way to be so is having magic power at one’s behest?
I have plenty more questions, but I guess the post is already long enough – hopefully I will get feedback on it, and then my other questions will start popping up as we move along.
Any feedback will be most welcome.
As an extra to what MOTDT said, I've made similar builds myself, but I prefer:
barbie (urban barbie) 1/scarred witch doctor 6/eldritch knight X
You'll have a hard time on levels 3-8, but afterwards you'll be a monster. For combat, I favor a strength build rather than dex here (despite my well-publicized love of dex-builds) because there are a number of good spells that give you strength bonuses (like frightful aspect).
However, this wont give you your scouting. Invisibility can take car of this most of the time. But I'm note quite sure if this is the direction you want. I've tried to build arcane tricksters before, but they are never quite satisfying on the combat side.
With the new rules for SLAs counting for prestige class entry, you could gain entrance at 5th level with a tiefling or aasimar rogue 3/any magic class 1.
Foresight school diviners make excellent 1 level dips, as do some sorcerer bloodlines like arcane.
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I went rogue/magus for mine and honestly he's fun. I need to work for all the attack bonuses I can get in combat to help my to hit but getting a sneak attack or shocking grasp most rounds helps. I suck vs range though.
Spells consist of 1st: Vanish & shocking grasp 2nd: intensified shocking grasp 3rd: haste
Skills focus on disable device, perception and slight of hand being maxed out with the rest of the skill points plugged into useful skills.
i don't generally play rogues (its just never been a class that appealed to me) but from what i've witnessed in other people playing them, sneak attack only really works when flanking, and even then only when you have other teammates who are attentive and willing to go out of their way to help make sure you'll get set up for them (and even tougher to reliably be able to iterate with it). i don't think it'll be a functional build/strategy for effectively suppressing/killing the kind of things you're describing.
if you want a stealthy, skill-heavy, combat guy obvious options would be ranger, inquisitor, or bard (especially more combat focused bard archetypes)- any of those would probably be more effective at what you're describing most of the time.
remember too, though, anybody can take stealth if you pick up the highlander trait. anyone with a decent Cha can pick up eldritch heritage feats for the shadow bloodline- at 11th level that gives you Hide in Plain Sight; and, there are plenty of ways to get invisibility spells. a magus with highlander could do most of what you're describing and would have a higher damage output than a rogue (and not be SA dependent). this is gonna sound a little crazy but a paladin could be a good option too: take highlander for stealth and grab the unsanctioned knowledge feat for spells like vanish/invisibility, you'll have great survivability (which is fairly essential if you plan to go alone behind enemy lines) and should be able to deal decent damage especially if you're 'handling' something you can smite, plus they have good face skills and could easily be connected to a network of inquisitors or something (and a human pally with 14 int would still have 6 skills/level).
I always dreamed of combining Threatening Illusion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threatening-illusion-metamag ic) and Shadow Gambit(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shadow-gambit) on an Arcane Trickster.
You flank your enemy with your Illusion and proceed to sneak attack him as a Touch Attack. This can be quite an awesome Image though your damage will still be kinda pathetic.
If only you could Full Attack with Shadow Gambit.
Flanking will be easier if you have a summoner (as you mentioned). Ask him/her to place the summons behind the enemy, then you don't have to risk your own neck getting behind enemy lines. Even if the summons themselves don't do much directly, they make excellent flanking buddies.
I've never played an arcane trickster myself, but the point of the class seems to be have fun doing things other than swinging big pieces of metal with massive damage bonuses. And the character you're describing seems perfect for your kingdom's spymaster.
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Arcane tricksters tend to be ranged characters relying on greater invis and ranged touch attack spells to deal damage, you end up with solid damage out of acid splash for instance, so your spell selection can be quite versatile. I played one to high levels and, in my mind, it was a lot more versatile and fun than straight wizard. Bear in mind I used some 3.5 shenanigans though to be rogue 1 / wizard 5 as my entry, so caster level loss wasn't so bad. Best you can do in Pathfinder is Rogue 1 Viva 1 Wizard 3 entry with a racial SLA. However, it doesn't sound like what you're asking about : soooo....
With what you said you're looking for in a character, I've got agree with Galahad, Inquisitor is RIGHT up your alley. With your stat array you might even think Inquisitor with a 2 level Master of Many Styles monk dip with snake style. Your sense motive AC will be through the roof, and with proper use of spring attack you'll be an extremely annoying character.
17 17 15 14 18 14 stat array sounds terrifying. Toss the bonus to wisdom and spend your stat ups on your uneven stats.
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I wonder if this build could be of interest to you:
Arcane Trickster
Go with an arcane trickster of 4 wizard levels, 1 rogue and 1 assassin, you'll turn yourself invisible, you'll kill people as the assassin and you'll sneak attack every round (or nuke) at lvl 11 with greater invisibility, beast shape 2 - large octopus with 9 tentacles and 20ft reach.
Cast quickened chill touch and boom - a boss died. 45d6/round
The tactic still deals 250+ damage at HD16
Stats:
Str18
Dex17
Con15
Int17
Wis14
Cha14
Good Feats:
Combat reflexes (1)
Craft wondrous items (3) - (require +2CL trait - magical knack?)
Quickened spell (11)
Lvl4 abi Increase = int
Good skills: Perception, spellcraft, stealth, Knowledge Dungeneering, Knowledge Local, Acrobatics, Disable Device, UMD
Your flexibility is amazing, because; rogue&wizard class skills, up to 5attacks/round at lvl1 and 13 attacks/round at lvl11.
Downside: 1 spell lvl behind pure wizards and 2d6 less sneak attack than appropriate rouge. Also you'll only have 40 skill ranks at lvl6.
Lvl 1(Wizard) throw shield and Mage armor on yourself and look as nothing hits you, use a quarterstaff, or enlarge yourself for AoOs, as enemies close in.
Lvl2(rogue) grab a simple reach weapon, slaughter everything without using any actions.
Lvl3(wizard) Start positioning yourself for flanks.
Lvl4(Wizard) Scout yourself, or kill with scorching ray.
Lvl5(wizard) (this level can be replaced by any other class such as rogue if u want trapfinding or other features. Delays your epic battleform 1 lvl)
Lvl6(Assasin) Scout, studdy victim, slay
Lvl7(Arcane Trickster!!) now u're ready for some fun! (lvl3spells and such)
...
Lvl11(Arcane Trickster) Flying, greater invisible, Giant Octopus with chill touch attacks!
Good Luck :)
I am here, and stunned by the sheer amount of constructive opinion I have received :D
Today was a busy day, AND I was not expecting such a massive response on a Sunday, but stay sharp because tomorrow I am back on the offense with comments on the suggestions I received, and several more questions.
Again, thank you all for such a positive feedback, and stay tuned.
@ Master of the Dark Triad and williamoak: I have taken a look at the possibilities behind your suggestions, but indeed, and as underoptimized the idea may be, it really seems to offer no big advantage in terms of a roguish role – of course spells go a loooong way in making up for this, and one can throw a trait or two into the mix, but not having stealth nor Disable Device in the class skills seems to be a significant drawback. Again, I am aware that, as levels go by, that bonus from having it as a class skill may not be significant, but I am playing the character starting at level 2 :D
@Nazard: I admito to not having taken a look at the new rules regarding SLAs as prereq fulfilment. Even knowing that the options are endless, what magic class would you include in such a build? And you are right in your assumption – the idea is not lugging around big pieces of metal, but still be able to drop down a decisive enemy if necessary [I think I have read too many Salvatore books, and for some reason convinced myself that Entreri was the rogue, and erased from my mind that in fact, it was Regis that was the Rogue. In my defense I will pull the Jarlaxle card to almost perfectly depict the character I look for – REALLY hard to back that drow into a corner, or force him into doing something he does not want to do. When forced into a fight, he has all these wondrous tricks – from his boots, to his feathered hat, without forgetting the daggers – in the end, he is not a match for Drizzt, or Entreri BUT he would be a match for many, and deadly to most :D]
@pennywit: I am actually not against playing a character that draws me in more, and forces me to make more decisions than your average Barbarian or Zen Archer (of course decisions always make up an important part of how you play your character). I just do not wish to play a character that is only able to make it if all the stars are aligned – would you say that was the case, in your experience?
@Fumihasa: Could you elaborate on the “I need to work for all the attack bonuses I can get in combat to help my to hit” part? How have you managed to address that particular fact – do you flank a lot? Do you have another group member that opens up these opportunities for you? My question is, how do you manage a sneak attack most rounds, basically :D Looking at Magus, and my limited knowledge of the class, they seem to be a decent choice, at least theoretically, as they combine arcane and combat into a neat package. Do you feel they have enough utility spells for a roguish character, like invisibility, stuff like Detect Secret Doors, along those lines? Why do you suck at range? The magus arsenal is not rich in ranged attack spells?
@nate lange: I tend to agree with your assessment regarding the class choice (Ranger, Inquisitor and Bard) – here’s my breakdown regarding those:
Level 0 (Gonna bypass this one)
Level 1
Command
Cause Fear
Compel Hostility
Ear Piercing Scream
Level 2
Blistering Invective
Brow Gasher
Castigate
Enthrall
Hold Person
Invisibility
Ok… I’ll stop right here – maybe the Inquisitor spell list can be more tailored to the roguish activities and to disabling a key enemy than I thought :D So, in that case, do you think I will have enough spell slots to pull it off?
- As for your Paladin suggestion… Really nice perspective, and I had never pondered it before – the smite evil would give him the added OOMPH in many situations, where damaging hard and fast would be essential, and with access to some arcane spells, he could end up quite decent indeed – Hide in Plain Sight is just the perfect thing really. I’m still a sucker for skills, and 6 skills/level seems short, but I am definitely pondering this one further.
@I3igAI: Well, style and awesomeness are also important :D
More considerations to come soon - have some RL stuff to take care of.
@Nazard: I admito to not having taken a look at the new rules regarding SLAs as prereq fulfilment. Even knowing that the options are endless, what magic class would you include in such a build? And you are right in your assumption – the idea is not lugging around big pieces of metal, but still be able to drop down a decisive enemy if necessary [I think I have read too many Salvatore books, and for some reason convinced myself that Entreri was the rogue, and erased from my mind that in fact, it was Regis that was the Rogue. In my defense I will pull the Jarlaxle card to almost perfectly depict the character I look for – REALLY hard to back that drow into a corner, or force him into doing something he does not want to do. When forced into a fight, he has all these wondrous tricks – from his boots, to his feathered hat, without forgetting the daggers – in the end, he is not a match for Drizzt, or Entreri BUT he would be a match for many, and deadly to most :D]
Foresight school diviner has some nice front-loaded abilities, especially for rogues, and you have the stats to stand buying a high intelligence. Sorcerers also make good choices, if you find a front-loaded bloodline like arcane, or an elemental one for the ability to change up energy damage types on your sneak attack fireballs and the lots a day range touch attacks for sneak attacking.
Orrrrrrr, (this might be out of the box a bit...)
Muse-touched aasimar (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, glitterdust as SLA, skill bonus to Perform and Diplomacy) rogue 3 (cutpurse archetype might be fun for this character concept, either way, use minor magic talent to get mage hand) cleric of Sivanah 1 (memory and deception domains) or cleric of Desna for the ever-popular luck and travel domains. You get minor group healing from channels, ability to use cleric wands without relying on UMD, status removal spells, self-healing, and a few unique blasts (sound burst, for example, that doesn't allow a saving throw for the damage component, meaning the beasties can't save from your 10th level AT sneak attack, and it's sonic damage, which few things have resistance to, or, at 14th-character level, a sneak attack harm spell for 7d6+130 points of untyped damage-assuming you're using magical knack to boost your cleric casting level). You also can wear armour like a rogue without worrying about arcane spell failure. And, most importantly of all, you get to be an arcane trickster that casts divine spells, because that's just cosmically wrong.
You description makes Ranger or Magus jump out at me.
you're doing int casting.. and you can cast two spells on top of a full attack from 3/4 bab in a round... all that while wearing full plate.
There are some good guides out there on Arcane Tricksters. Perhaps one of the best combos to use that I've seen is the rogue's cutpurse archetype. It allows you to steal at range if you apply sneak attack on a hit. With a Trickster applying sneak attacks on your spells is a big part of the class. Imagine stealing a cleric's holy symbol on the opening shot. Or a spell component pouch from a wizard. Add to this the Tricksters ability Ranged Legerdemain. Start putting exploding runes down in front of your enemies, alchemist fires with lit fuses etc., then sneak attacking and taking their belongings. Or, and this is what I'd do, Baleful Polymoph some angry baddies and drop em on your next batch of enemies and dispel the poly effect. Sit back and laugh. With a Trickster, you're a magical rogue and need to think of fulfilling that role. I'd definitely go Wizard for the skill points and take the rogue talent for trap spotting. That way if you run into a magical trap, you know when to cast Aram Zey's trap spell so you disarm it. Make sure you have a high dex and that will help counter your low bab and as others have said, focus on touch attacks if you need to make attack rolls.
I had a similar character. Standard elf wiz rogue. He had a high acrobatics and spring attack. With a flanking fighter your chances of getting hit we're pretty low. I'd always have Mage armor and shield up. Ten is use expeditious retreat to run from fat away, hit with sneak attack(flanking), then run out.
remember, the more things you try to be good at the less good you will be at each...
What I am looking for:
- A martial character (melee is my preference)
- A resourceful character (skill wise)
- A versatile character (this is the real conundrum I guess – I am looking for a melee combatant, but as levels progress, I want him to be able to still make a difference and I guess the only real way to do this is adding some sort of spellcasting ability – either divine or arcane)
Let me try to elaborate on the versatility aspect a tad more – I think I want his chassis to be that of a “skill monkey” guy – the one that goes ahead and knows what is going on before anyone else does, the one that has an extensive underground of contacts, manages to gather details about adversaries, either through intimidation or Diplomacy – you all know what I mean.
an inquisitor most naturally fits this core concept; a properly built bard or magus can as well (and, as i previously pointed out, you can come at it in some unusual ways too). each of those will have some sort of shortcoming, but the harder you work at doing everything the worse you'll end up being at this core.
i have a friend who spent years trying to work out this kind of do everything character (multiple guys across numerous campaigns) with all kinds of different combos of rogue (then ninja when it came out)/wiz or sorc/monk/occasionally a dip in ranger/and different prestige classes (including AT and shadowdancer). again and again he felt overshadowed because he was always 2nd (or 3rd) best in the party at any given thing. yes, if the whole party got separated he had the most options but when the party was together: the wizard knew more, and threw better buffs; the cleric also threw better buffs, had a few decent save or suck spells (with DCs that made them actually relevant), had better face skills, and was actually better in melee; and the barbarian was almost as stealthy/acrobatic and could out-dpr him with his eyes closed (literally, with 50% miss chance he might have still out-damaged him). just something to consider.
edit: now that i think about that party- have you considered an oracle? i've never tried it but with your stats you might be able to pull off an interesting swiss-army-knife oracle... 4 skills/level base and you'll have minimum 14 int, plus you can take favored class bonus and human; medium BAB and you can easily have a good strength- focus on a 2hander build (least feat intensive damage) and (since your Dex will also be good) you could use a reach weapon and add combat reflexes for free attacks (with AoOs); its a full casting class (with decent buffs to help your melee, and some good save or sucks) and its Cha based so face skills will be great. the Seeker archetype gives you disable device (with a scaling bonus) and the trapfinding ability (but takes away your standard bonus skills- you can use traits for stealth and any other skill you feel are essential). your mystery will determine a fair bit of how you play him- battle or metal will really help you excel in combat, fire would give you some blasting options (and gain more benefit from the seeker 3rd level revelation), and dark tapestry has nice flavor and some thematic synergy with one style of this kind of character. also, since you're Cha based, it would be relatively easy to take the shadow eldritch heritage line (you just have to find the feats for it- if you're a human, focused study helps with that a little).
Male aasimar (peri-blooded) Rogue (Cutpurse) 3, Wizard (Diviner; Foresight) 1, Arcane Trickster 1
NG Medium outsider (native)
Init +12; Senses darkvision 60 feet; Perception +10
AC 15 (Dex +5), touch 15, flat-footed 10
CMD 19
HP 41 (3d8+9+1d6+3+1d6+3)
Fort (1) +4, Ref (4) +9, Will (3) +5
Defensive Abilities Evasion
Immunities None
Resistances acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
Speed 30 ft
Melee
rapier +4 (1d6+2; 18-20/x2; P)
Ranged
sling +7 (1d4+2; 20/x2; 50 feet; B)
Special Actions
sneak attack: +2d6 damage against flanked or flat-footed opponents
Abilities Str 14 (+2), Dex 20 (+5), Con 17 (+3), Int 18 (+4), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 16 (+3)
Base Attack +2; Melee Touch +4; Ranged Touch +7
CMB +4
Feats
Improved Initiative (1): +4 bonus to Initiative
Weapon Focus—Ray(3): +1 attack bonus with rays
Spell Focus--Evocation (5): +1 to DCs of saving throws of evocation spells
Rogue Talents
Surprise Attack (2): opponents are considered flat-footed in the surprise round, even if they've already acted
Traits
Reactionary: +2 trait bonus to Initiative
Magical Knack: +2 to caster level of wizard
Skills +3 from rogue favoured class (53)
Acrobatics (5) +13
Bluff (5) +11
Disable Device (5) +13
Escape Artist (4) +12
Knowledge—Arcana (5) +12
Knowledge—Planes (0) +6
Perception (5) +10
Sense Motive (4) +9
Sleight of Hand (5) +13
Spellcraft (5) +14
Stealth (5) +13
Use Magic Device (5) +11
Languages
Common, Celestial, unknown, unknown, unknown, unknown
Some options, like languages, left blank (depending on setting). This guy always goes during the surprise round (diviner ability), and usually first with his +12 Initiative score (though with Surprise Attack, even if he doesn't go first, the baddies are still flat-footed, which will be a huge deal at 14th level when he's sneak attacking with fireballs). From here on, he'll be able to keep 8 skills maxed