Angvar Thestlecrit

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Yesterday I put a npc kineticist into my campaign for my party to take on.

He was a 4th level Aether kineticist

Initial observations:
Aether Kineticists have a distinct lack of options if you dont want to go the route of light touch at low levels. And as an npc that sort of thing isn't generally valuable.

How the encounter went. He attacked in darkness, at the edge of the party's light, hurling rocks and debrie at them with telekinetic blast. He tried placing kinetic cover, but it was more or less useless particularly given it was a standard action. His force ward was basically meaningless even against lower level opponents, 4temporary hit points that wont regenerate within the encounter is basically nothing. It was gone in one shot and he took a fair bit of damage on top of it.

He did do a lot of damage, at low levels at least, the kinetic blast did plenty of damage, and his to hit was fine even against normal AC. Again this was 2nd level characters, but still, at low levels at least I think the attack bonus is sufficient. The damage of the telekinetic blast definately put some fear into the players.

Kinetic cover being a standard action, was basically a waste of a turn, since its static, people just moved around it once they realized it granted cover. It might be more useful in a larger scale combat with more combatants, but by himself, it was a certain waste.

Overall, I think the kineticist makes a good npc enemy, good damage, simple to run, and something different. But as a party member its sorely lacking in terms of filling one of the traditional four roles, I think some added utility, and either the ability to effectively deal with negative conditions (expanding kinetic healing), or the ability to be the magic knowledge guy (spellcraft, identifying magic itesm etc), or significant skill points and more class skills to be the skill full character, as it stands its a pure 5th wheel class, without a place in a 4 person party unless the other 3 are like a druid, a summoner and a bard, and are already a functional party without the kineticist.

So one of the ideas I've kicked around a lot for dealing with martial/magic disparity is the idea of non-magical characters having organizations behind them. Not as a plot point, or external system, but as a function of leveling up. The wizard gets to warp space and time, the cleric is a literal walking miracle, the fighter gets an army, the rogue gets a thieves guild.

The idea here is not to grant them additional combat power, do more damage and such, the idea is to give them more power over the narrative. The way the story has to adapt to and be affected by the fact that the wizard learned teleport and the cleric has raise dead, the story will need to adapt and be affected by the rogue having a network of thieves, assassins and informants.

If you don't believe there is an issue with martial caster disparity, this isn't for you. If you believe the issue is best dealt with by the GM, and restricting caster's abilities and deliberately providing opportunities for non casters, this isn't for you.

If you think the rules of the game should provide Martial characters with an option to have the same ability to influence the story as magic can via mundane means, this might be for you.

High Concept

All classes that do not cast spells at 1st level will add to your Organization Size. Classes that cast spells at 4th level, count for class level -2 (minimum 0).

Organizations are abstract. There is not a specific number of members, or even stat blocks for these members. The player and dm can stat out key npcs if they wish, but it isn't necessary.

Starting size 4, an organization can perform a set number of tasks per day. These tasks will each have a magnitude (I don't wish to add another meaning for the word level in game). Your organization's size will determine how many tasks of which magnitude your organization can take (much like a spells per day progression). These tasks will have different magnitudes for different kinds of organizations.



Collect information (Thieves Guild 1, Army 2, Bureaucracy 1)

Effect: Your guild retrieves specific information about a target of your choosing via research, investigation and bribery. At the end of the day you receive 1 piece of relevant information per level of your organization.

These organizations do not carry a cost, or require the character to invest a specific amount of time running them. It is as much a background activity as the wizard doing his personal research to learn 2 new spells every level. Even if the campaign has no downtime, the character still gains, and has access to his organization.

As you can see from the example, I am thinking of dividing them up into different kinds of organizations, Thieves Guilds and Bureaucracies for 3/4 bab characters, and Armies for full bab characters, altering task magnitude thematically within the kind of organization.

For instance, if something or someone needs to be escorted under guard, an army would have an easier time of it then a bureaucracy, but if the bureaucracy is large enough, it would be able to get a hold of some muscle make the escort.

Its still a very rough idea, but I wanted to get thoughts and opinions as I get started.

My dm and I disagree on what the following passage means:


Restrictions on Earnings

Whether a unit generates its listed capital depends on your intentions for the building or organization, and should follow common sense. For example, if you construct a building with a Bar, Common Room, and Kitchen, you might want to use it as a tavern or a headquarters for your adventuring party. If it's a tavern, it's open to the public and generates capital. Otherwise, it's a private building and doesn't generate capital because it's used by only you and your friends. If you start your own cult with Acolytes and Priests, you might decide they sell healing and generate income. If your thieves' guild has Acolytes, you might decide they only heal members of your guild, and therefore don't generate income.

If you intend for your building or organization to generate capital, you must explain to the GM how it does so. You can change the purpose of your building or organization (for example, renovating an old military barracks into an inn or turning your greedy cult into a generous one) and in doing so change the capital it generates. You should choose one idea and stick to it, however, as a business that's open to the public on an irregular basis makes less money, as does a business that frequently changes its purpose. The GM might reduce the capital buildings generate in such situations.

The circumstances is effectively that we have received control of a former tavern, containing a kitchen, bar, common room and storage room. It is the party's intent to build up on this adding rooms and teams to create a law enforcement headquarters and organization, since we were given sort of US marshal style ranks in the same ceremony that gave us the tavern. We intend primarily to use it to earn influence within the city, but other forms of capital as well.

The issue is essentially if the former tavern rooms can be re purposed to support a different kind of organization and still earn their capital benefits. Given that many buildings have rooms that are not directly related to the primary purpose of the building but instead are used in a support fashion, it seems reasonable to have these elements as part of our organization, even if it does not expressly help with enforcing law and order.

He seems to think the quoted passage implies that for instance a kitchen in the garrison would not contribute its capital bonuses to the efforts of the garrison (assuming it was being used to house soldiers), since the kitchen itself would be closed to the public.

I guess what I am asking is what does the quoted statement actually mean. The whole thing is pretty vague, and honestly the downtime rules as a whole sit pretty much in the vague category. I am not trying to override my gm, in the end he can always houserule things to his interpretation, but I'd like to know the actual intent of the rules in this case for my own understanding at least.

I am breaking this out from a conversation in a different thread because I do think it might actually be a really good idea. The idea here is to focus the rogue on a concept that moves it away from the thematic space that is now effectively occupied by the slayer, swashbuckler, investigator, and ninja.

One of the ideas is to focus on being the dirty rotten trickster. Hence an archetype that focuses on the dirty trick maneuver. Please note that this is almost certainly a powerup for the rogue. The fact that he would be able to provide his own circumstances for sneak attack (blinding) along with some pretty serious debilitating conditions means that a rogue with this archetype will we far more combat effective then a normal rogue. Thats intentional. How much of a power increase it is, or should be is ofcourse where playtesting and critical examination comes in.

Lethal Trickster

Sometimes, you just have to fight dirty. Lethal tricksters are experts at improvising ways of debilitating their enemies. With a slash of a knife, a toss of dirt in the eyes, or a blow to an unmentionable area, the Lethal Trickster never fights on an even footing.

Dirty Trick Pool(Ex):
The Lethal Trickster is truely exceptional at dastardly tricks. At first level, when using the dirty trick combat maneuver he can spend 1 point from his dirty trick pool to extend the duration of the condition imposed by dirty trick by a number of rounds equal to his intelligence modifier. She has a number of dirty trick pool points equal to 3 plus his intelligence modifier. This ability Replaces Trapfinding

Dirty Fighting:
At first level a Lethal Trickster recieves the improved dirty trick feat as a bonus feat. In addition, when using the dirty trick combat maneuver the rogue uses her rogue level, in place of her base attack bonus when determining her combat maneuver bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

At 6th level the Lethal Trickster gains Greater Dirty Trick as a bonus feat. This ability Replaces Trap Sense.

New Rogue Talents
Combined trick(EX): The rogue with this trick can spend a point from his dirty trick pool to grant an additional negative condition upon a successful dirty trick combat maneuver. The duration for both conditions is reduced by 1 round (minimum 1 round). A rogue must be at least 8th level to take this talent and have the dirty trick pool class feature.

Smart Tricks(Ex): The rogue can use his intelligence modifier in place of his strength modifier when using the dirty trick maneuver.

A rogue with this talent gains the trapfinding class feature.
Its kind of rediculous that this isnt already a rogue talent. So many archetypes trade away trapfinding despite it being an iconic rogue ability. So I am adding it back in for the purpose of this archetype, since I dont want to remove such an ability from the rogue completely, but trap finding was about the only sensible thing to take out at 1st level as part of the archetype

Advanced Talents:

Brutal Trick:
The rogues tricks are particularly vicious. Upon a succeful combat maneuver check for the dirty trick maneuver the rogue may spend 2 points from his dirty trick pool to make the condition semipermanent. In addition to extending the duration of the condition by his intelligance modifier, after that, the condition remains until the target is the subject of a dc 15 heal check, or recieves magical healing. Neither the heal check nor magical healing can remove the condition prior to its initial duration. A rogue must have the Dirty Trick Pool class feature to take this talent.

Sneaky Tick*:
Once per round, upon the successful delivery of a sneak attack, once per round the rogue may make a free Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver check against the target.

So the Alchemical manual seems really exciting to me. And it offers an opportunity for what I'd consider an actual alchemist, instead of a pseudo spellcaster like the current alchemist is. So I've come up with a really rouge draft of an alchemist archetype to incorporate the concept of instand alchemy into the alchemist, while also making him a cut above the rest in such a practice. Not sure what to call it yet. But here are the class features I am considering. Please note this references material from the Alchemy manual, so if you arent familiar with it its not going to make alot of sense.

True Alchemy:
The alchemist gains Instant Alchemy feat as a bonus feat. In addition, any alchemical item crafted by the alchemist has a save DC equal to 10+1/2 the alchemists level + his intelligence modifier, or the items normal dc, whichever is higher. This feature replaces brew potion.

An alchemist is the quitesential improviser, and a master of the art of alchemy. He is able to substitute common easily available ingrediants for more valuable reagents. So long as he has access to his alchemist's lab or kit, he can create any alchemical Item using swift alchemy that he is able to create with a standard action using only ingrediants that have an insignificant cost —comparable to the valueless material components of most spells, instead of the regeants required by the recipe. However such items are not stable. The alchemist may only have a number of such alchemical items created at a time equal to his alchemist level as he must carefully manage the concoctions in order to keep them from becoming inert. If he creates an additional concoction beyond his normal limit, he must choose one concoction to become inert.

This ability replaces the alchemist's Extracts. An alchemist with this ability does not gain have a formulae book and cannot create extracts.

New Discovery:

Lightning Mixer: The alchemist is able to create items even faster then before. The time to create alchemical items using swift alchemy is reduced an additional step, 1 standard action becomes a swift action, 10 minutes becomes a standard action, an hour becomes 10 minutes. The alchemist must be at least 3rd level to take this Discovery

Confident Alchemy: The alchemist gains the Sure-Handed Alchemy feat as a bonus feat.

Steady Hands: The limit of concoctions the alchemist can create at a time is increased by 2.

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So in the second part of my exploration of giving martial characters nice things, I want to look at some actual Ideas I have. My hope is to create a set of rules that can be plugged into the existing game to help expand options for martial characters without messing with too much of the actual math or structure of the game.

One of the things that came up the most in Part One of this series of threads was the ammount of investment required for the 'cool stuff' martial characters can do. Basically they have class abilities, and feats, and while certainly these are more abundant in pathfinder then they were in 3.5, they are still very limited, and difficult to change. Unlike spells these are long term choices, that need to be built towards. Often the prerequisites of these options limit other choices.

The other issue I have seen is the limitations on martial character's actions. We picture "Swashbucklers who kiss the girl, swing across the ballroom on a rope, then drop a chandelier behind them on the hapless guards." But the actual action economy of this game really limits these things.

Martial characters have as their primary resources a high attack bonus and skills. These are probably the least loved areas of the game. An attack is an attack, a skill check is a skill check. It either succeeds or it doesnt. If my target or DC is 15, and I get a 35, its the same as if I got a 15 unless I roll a critical which is based on the dice and not my abilities (for the most part) and completely unimportant to skills.

So why not change that? If I beat the heck out of my dc, why shouldnt that allow some additional options?

So my suggestion is that if you exceed a dc or an AC on a skill check or attack roll by a certain amount, lets say 5 for now, you would be able to get some kind of additional effect. These would come in several forms:

1. Reduce the time it takes to complete this action by one step, minimum a swift action, and can be done more then once if you beat the target by an additional 5. So the incredibly diplomatic swashbuckler by rolling very high can charm the maiden with a glance, the fighter can quickly stab the lowly goblin, and then charge the big bad guy and attack him.

The place where this would get tricky is full attacks. I think it would require some playtesting, but I dont know if it would be a huge issue to allow full attacks to be reduced. Possibly limiting them to one step to a standard action. It would certainly change the game, but I am not yet certain if it would change it for the worse. If I do include full attacks, the first attack of the full attack action would be the one that determined the amount you could decrease the time, and you would still be limited to a single full attack action per turn.

This option would both be active, and reactive. Meaning you can after the result of an attack or skill is executed reduce the action that attack took, OR you can actively choose to raise the dc or AC of your target by a certain amount

2. Each skill would get a set of 'skill talents' that a player could choose from for each X ranks he put into that skill (working starting value is every 3 ranks). For every 5 points you exceed your target dc by, you can activate one or more of these talents instead of reducing the duration, or some cobination there of.

3. Tactical Confidence(Working name) a set of abilities characters can choose from as they gain base attack bonus (again plan is every 3 BAB). When a character exceeds an attack roll by a certain amount, he gains confidence/experience against the target and in the battle and is able to gain an advantage. These could be things like bonuses against certain kinds of attacks, to bonuses to certain combat maneuvers, or a buff you can pass to your party as you lead them in battle. The idea here is put the skill and experience of the veteran fighter or barbarian to work in a way that is represented by more then just a high to hit bonus.

And lastly, I want to make both combat maneuvers and weapon proficiencies matter a bit more.

So I would recommend the change that if you are using an a manufactured weapon with which you are proficient to make a combat maneuver it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

In addition, so long as you are executing the combat maneuver with a manufactured weapon with which you are proficient, you add 1.5x your base attack bonus to combat maneuvers instead of just your bab. The idea here is to help combat maneuver bonuses scale better at high levels, and again to offer an advantage for that martial experience that is normally only represented in a high to hit, without requiring additional investment on the part of martial characters. This one would also require some playtesting to get the numbers right.

I am working now on some examples of skill talents and tactical confidences. I will post them when they are ready.

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So recent events have gotten me thinking about something that has been an on again off again consideration that I have been tinkering with for a long time. What should martial or specifically, non-magical abilities allow you to do. We often talk about caster martial disparity, and usually it is from the end of a spell or magical/supernatural ability that does something either way better then the mundane abilities, or something they simply cannot do.

Part of that comes from the fact that we are sort of playing 2 games. One is played by magic users who do all sorts of crazy stuff and the explanation is 'because magic'. The other game is the realm of the non-magical. Fighters, rogues, cavaliers, and certain monks(those that dont exploit ki based abilities to a large degree) sit in this space. It is a rational and mathematically sound game that actually ties pretty well into the real world if you follow certain base assumptions about the level of people in the real world. Its not a perfect simulator, but its pretty good.

There have been attempts to bridge this gap. Things like the tome of battle, gave supernatural abilities to martial characters, but many rejected this because it A essentially replaces the existing martial classes, and B changes the feel of said martial classes to something a bit more anime, and a bit less lord of the rings.

So here is my question. Assuming no massive changes to the structure of the game, and without a desire to change the nature of martial abitilies, what kinds of things should martial character be able to do at say, low level (1-6), mid levels (7-14) and high levels (15-20).

Now I dont want to talk rules, or how to implement these abilities, Just what should they be able to accomplish with their abilties. I think part of the problem with discussing martial's cant have nice things, is we dont have a goal on what those nice things aught to be.

A low level rogue should be able to effortlessly pick a lock, in less time then it seems it took to pull out his tools.

A high level fighter should be able to cut down waves of enemies with speed and grace.

A high level rogue should have a chain of contacts to be able to obtain hidden information very rapidly, and have his 'finger on the pulse' of his domain getting hits of things going on before they happen.

I have a new player in a game that I've made custom miniatures for everyone in the party. He is playing a male sylph witch. I havent been able to find anything particularly appropriate and was wondering if anyone had any ideas?

I have new player joining my rise of the runelords campaign (currently level 2). The game is tonight, but I thought i'd provide a little feedback on the character creation which occured last night, and I'll follow up with results of actual play tonight.

He is playing an Aasimar Warpriest of Cayden.

First impressions: He really likes the class, but he felt like there were very few good choices for blessings. He ended up going with Cayden because the only blessings he saw that seemed worth it were Travel and Strength. Even though they are shorter duration buffs, he felt like between all the things he could do (cast spells, attack, use fervor) they would be the most likely to actually get used. The Fire blessing, or the Weather blessings had appeal, but given the very limited duration and the standard action to activate, he felt like he'd never use them.

After the choice of deity and blessings the thing he spend the most time on was his ability scores. Even though my game has a very generous point buy (25 points with no stat over a 17 after racial modifiers and no stat bellow a 10 before racial modifiers), he still found it difficult to find points for everything he wanted.

Overall should be interesting, and it should help out the party by taking a little of the divine responsibility off the inquisitor (the sole divine caster in the party).

I've mentioned this in several threads but I want to create one to fascilitate it.

Bascially what I propose is 2-3 people interested in playtesting the new classes get together during an hour or two they have where they can divert a portion of their attention to posting, to run one or more of the advanced class guide playtest classes through a simple (or complex) play by plost set of encounters. No need for detailed dialogue, or going through a whole adventure, the purpose of this is to have actual play experience of the mechanics of the class working with other people. The example is what rogue eidolon and I did here. It took us about an hour per encounter (results may vary ofcourse).

So post here if you are interested and with approximate times (with timezone) and use the worldclock to sort out other people's posts where necessary.

The objective here is to get people who might not have time or opportunity to playtest with their homegames a crack at actually using these classes and rolling some actual (if digital) dice.

Attempting to take a theoretical discussion on the swashbuckler to playtest using pbp, feel free to ignore this if you werent involved in that discussion.

Discussion on the playtest here

Ok never done this before so lets see if this works.

Swashbuckler Sally


STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +7 Ref: +11 Will: +8 (+10 against fear)

AC: 22 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 17 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +3 Dodge)

Attacks: Rapier +23/+18, 1d6+13+10 precision dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Swash abilities (there's a lot)

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 30

Weapon Focus (rapier)
Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (rapier) (from Precise Strike)
Critical Focus
Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Extra Panache* (speculative but seems certain)

Some more stuff than Fred

+3 rapier
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

Falchion Fred (cleric 9)


Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +7 Will: +8 (+10 against fear, 1/day reroll)

AC: 25 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 22 (+10 +1 full plate, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Dodge)

Attacks: Falchion +23/+18, 2d4+16 dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (heavy blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 28

Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (falchion)
Critical Focus
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (falchion)
Step Up

Some stuff

+3 falchion
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

And backup bob

Priest CR 8
XP 4,800
Human cleric 9
LN Medium humanoid

Init +1; Senses Perception +8

AC 26, touch 11, flat-footed 25 (+11 armor, +1 Dex, +4 shield)
hp 70 (9d8+30)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +11

Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 merciful morningstar +9/+4 (1d8+3 plus 1d6 nonlethal) or dagger +8/+3 (1d4+2/19–20)
Ranged mwk light crossbow +8 (1d8/19–20) or dagger +7 (1d4+2/19–20)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 5/day (DC 14, 5d6), staff of order (4 rounds, 1/day)

Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th, concentration +13) 7/day—rebuke death, touch of law
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 9th, concentration +13)
5th—breath of lifeD, righteous might
4th—air walk, freedom of movement, order's wrathD (DC 18), spell immunity
3rd—daylight, dispel magic, magic circle against chaosD, prayer, searing light
2nd—aid, bull's strength, cure moderate woundsD, delay poison, spiritual weapon, status
1st—bless, detect chaos, divine favor (2), protection from chaosD, shield of faith
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, detect poison, stabilize
D domain spell; Domains Healing, Law

Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 19
Feats Armor Proficiency (heavy), Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Extra Channel, Shield Focus, Toughness, Vital Strike
Skills Diplomacy +5, Heal +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +8, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +11
Languages Common

SQ healer's blessing

Gear +2 full plate, +2 heavy wooden shield, +1 merciful morningstar, masterwork light crossbow with 10 bolts, dagger, cloak of resistance +1, healer's kit

Boon A priest can accompany PCs or send a patrol of four temple guards to assist them for up to 3 days. She can also craft magical arms and armor at a 10% discount.

Are walking down a road when they come are ambushed... We can decide what we are fighting in discussion

So yesterday after I got my hands on the playtest document I ran a playtest with a couple friends online.

What we did is took 3 of the new classes and took what we felt were close analogues in the existing game at level 6 and Level 12. Each level had 2 encounters run in succession. I ran a basic npc cleric to round out the party, nothing particularly special, mostly healing, and support.
Rules: 15 point buy Humans, no traits, wbl gear with no more then 1/3 of the total spent on offensive items or defensive items.

Player one:
Human Blood Rager - Draconic Bloodline

Human Barbarian -
Rage powers were
Beast Totem Lesser
Animal Fury
Dragon Totem
Dragon Totem Resiliance
Dragon Totem Wings
(Extra Rage power Feat) Beast Totem)
Beast Totem Greater.

Player 2
Human Hunter - Big Cat Companion
Wild shape focused Druid - Big Cat Companion

Player 3
Swashbuckler - Dervish dancer with scimitar
Freehand Fighter - Dervish dancer with scimitar

Initial Impressions/Questions
Player 1
We couldnt figure out what the blood ragers caster level was supposed to be, so we assumed it was like the paladin/ranger at level-3. In addition, the player was curious about going into Dragon Disciple but since we werent sure how that would interact with their blood of the dragons ability, or the dragon bite if at all, he just went straight bloodrager.

In addition, we were not sure if some of the blood raging powers were exclusively when blood raging or if they were all the time. Some powers specifically said 'when entering a blood rage' or something of the sort. Others just said 'you gain'. It wasnt clear to us at least if the claws/resistances were an all the time ability, or if they only appeared when bloodraging.

The player also realized that there is almost no real benefit to having a good charisma for a blood rager. You need to have enough to be able to cast your spells, but CON is obviously more important, and your save dcs will already be low (low spell levels) so your casting will be mostly no save or buff spells. The blood rager is sort of in the same boat as the 3.5 paladin was, Melee combatant (needs strength), but its class abilities run on one stat (con for blood rager, charisma for the paladin) and its casting on another (charisma for the bloodrager and wisdom for the paladin). We think this ought to be looked at. It makes for a very mad class, particularly since the bloodrager isnt wearing heavy armor and needs some dex also to fill out defenses.

Player 2
No real questions here, but the player kept taking time to figure out what teamwork feats to take, untill he realized it was just a standard action to change, which he thought was very cool.

Player 3
A little disappointed that though its not strickly necessary, scimitar swashbucklers will likely become the norm unless paizo includes a dervish dance analogue for other onehanded/light piercing weapons. My group has a homebrewed feat 'fencers dance' that works with any onehanded or light piercing weapon but we decided not to use that since this is a playtest.

Also, why on earth to swashbucklers get weapon finese at 2nd level instead of 1st? It is essentially a required feat for their style of fighting, it needs to be at 1st level or there needs to be some kind of compensation if you already have the feat.

So on to the encounters:
Party level 6:
I used some goblin npcs created by perram from the Know Direction Podcast for these encounters. Perrams Goblins

1st Encounter
2 GOblin Slicers (under geared Goblin Rogue-bandit 5)
Goblin Brute(under geared Goblin Barbarian 5)
Goblin Boomer (Under Geared Goblin Alchemist-Grenadier 5)
CR 7

We played this encounter as an abush on a relatively open road. However the Hunter made the perception check to notice the goblins sneaking up and spoiled the surprise. Battle ensued with everyone unbuffed.

The swashbuckler was the star of the show here, he won initiative, and (literally) leapt into action, spending a panache point to make a ludicrously lucky 'daring do' leap (rolled 4 6's in a row) over a ditch on the side of the road that landed him behind the goblins. He then scored a crit on one of the goblin rogues, nearly dropping him in one shot (getting his panache point back). He parried 2 attacks (combat reflexes) and reposted on another, dropping one rogue. The blood rager spent a round buffing and the moving towards the fight and then tore apart the goblin brute with 2 rounds of heavy raging claw attacks.

The hunter tried an entangle spell, that didnt effect anything, and then spent a pair of turns trying to do amusing but not particularly effective things with teamwork feats and his cat.

In the 'normal pc' encounter, things went a little differently. The druid won initiative there, wildshaping on his first turn while his can moved up and clawed at the goblin brute. The barbarian similarly went to town on the brute, but took him down a turn faster (extra attack from animal fury made a significant difference). The free hand fighter attempted a similar leap over the 10ft ditch, but just barely made the roll, and didnt do anything particularly interesting, hitting with a pair of attacks while the druid and barbarian did most of the actual killing.

2nd Encounter
2 Goblin Slicers
2 Elite Goblin Dogs(Advanced Goblin dog)
1 Goblin Brute
CR 8

This encounter happened in a cave with both sides expecting eachother. The blood rager was enlarged, the hunter had magic fang his pet and barskin on himself, and activated the bull animal focus just before the encounter started. The swash buckler was remarkably still at full panache despite having spent several in the last encounter. And opened up the encounter with yet another crit, this time having spent a point of pinache to double his precise strike damage, goodbuy to one goblin slicer in the opening round.

When buffed the blood rager was significantly more potent, taking down the other goblin slicer (who had moved up to him) with a single full attack. Turns out rage, plus enlarge person is a potent combination.

The hunter took quite a beating at the hands of the brute and one of the goblin dogs, needing to be saved by the NPC cleric, but this time his teamwork feats paid off a bit more managing to trip and then precise strike the goblin brute. Turns out that +1d6 damage means alot more on a big cat then something making a single attack. Overall star of the show in this encounter was the blood rager and his enlarged claws of death

In the normal encounter the wildshaped druid and his buffed cat were definately the most effective. The druid literally tore through the goblin dogs and his cat killed one of the slicers. It was clear that of the 'normal' party, when there was an opportunity to buff, the druid was tops. The free hand fighter got in a few pot shots but was overall not particularly interesting. He did try and failed to disarm one of the rogues, but he found his best option was to just attack most of the time. The barbarian, raged, clawed and bit. Not particularly creative, but very effective.

In the normal
Party Level 12

1st ENcounter
2 Elder Earth Elementals
CR 13

At the higher levels the players had alot more options. IN particular, both the blood rager and the barbarian could fly when raging. A big help where mobility is concerned, and it allowed them to easily get around 2 big open pits in the middle of the cave this encounter was taking place in. They could have gone around, but the option to fly made a big difference.

The swashbuckler was far less effective in this fight, with his precise strike not functioning on the hunks of rock. And I was reminded something I already knew. Pounce is really really good. The barbarian, druid, and the two cats were far more effective then anyone else in this encounter, as the elementals were spread out, and as we all know you generally want to be full attacking if you can be. The dragon disciple felt a bit short changed and wished he could access the rage powers somehow (such as the extra rage power feat) but didnt qualify so he didnt have pounce, and had one less attack then his barbarian counterpart. Though he noted, he could have been a toothy half orc to overcome at least part of that problem.

Second Encounter
2 Ice Devils
CR 15

This encounter also had an opportunity to buff before hand. The druid especially made use of this and the cleric took the time to align his and the swashbucklers weapons to get past the devils damage reduction.

This was a hard encounter, both the swashbuckler and the hunter got knocked unconcious by the full attacks of the ice devils. Sometimes winning initiative isnt a good thing. Again though pounce and the abilty to fly were important, as the ice devils were rather mobile, using ice storms, and wall of ice to keep both parties from closing in on them.

Again in this case the bloodrager was itching for the ability to pounce and to get a 3rd (or fourth) attack somehow. The 2 claws at level 12 even with enlarge person just wasnt cutting it. Though catching both ice devils in a electrical breath weapon was apparently very satisfying.

Interestingly it was the hunters companion that made the final blow, protecting his downed master as the cleric struggled to keep him alive.

In the normal encounter, the animal growthed stoneskined, evil outsider bane magic(did you know greater magic fan can give enhancement bonuses? I Didnt) fanged pouncing druid and cat companion proved to be pretty devastating to the ice devils. Everyone else was sort of cleanup after a pair of full attack from those two.

Final Impressions:
Draconic Bloodrager: Very cool, but as you get to higher levels, it seems it starts to fall short against the beast totem barbarians, or even a normal barbirian full attacking with a 2handed weapon. Just the 2 claw attacks was kind of limited, and the lack of access to rage powers is unfortunate. We all also really think something should be done about the multi ability score dependency issuers like paizo did for the paladin in the initial switch. We were thinking maybe rage rounds being based on charisma instead of con. Either way, at the very least the blood rager ought to have more benefit to a high charisma then he does.

Hunter: Fun but quirky. I think this is a character you would have to get used to. The whole teamwork with your animal buddy thing is really interesting, and something that has sort of been lacking (or required alot of investment) in the other 'pet' classes. One thing that did come up though, is tricks/training. Even if the animal companion has the teamwork feat, does he know how to use it? There is often debate as to how much control a pc has over an animal level intelligence companion. Would it know how to get into position for all those different team work feats, or would the hunter have to be the one to do all himself?

I dont think the hunter performed as well as the druid, but given the druid is among the most powerful classes in the game, that probably isnt a bad thing, but it is worth noting.

Swashbuckler: All kinds of awesome. We really like it, though we desperately wish there was an option, feat, something to make a rapier (or other similar weapon) as good as a dervish dance scimitar. PLEASE do something there.

Also the swashbuckler is likely to have a ready supply of panache, more when compared to a gunslingers grit. Higher crit ranges (particularly with improve crit or a keen weapon) and no need to spend panache to clear jams, they have a fairly abundant supply, confident to get back one or two in most fights. This isnt a bad thing, just an observation.

I have been giving a lot of thought to magic in the game lately, and the sheer variety of things it can do. I think the usual adventure do require certain kinds of magic, for instance hit point healing and negative condition removal are a necessity to be able to move through adventures with any kind of pace. I'd like to come up with a list of the spells/types of spells that are necessary to get through an adventure, as opposed to the overwhelming variety that currently exists:

For example:

Hit point recovery:
Cure spells, infernal healing

Condition Removal:
Lesser Restoration, Restoration, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, Heal

Flight, Air Walk

Detect Magic, See invisibility

Counter Magic:
Dispell Magic, glitterdust

damage spells:
Fireball, Scorching Ray etc

Protective spells:
Resist Energy, Protection from X, Mage Armor, Shield

what else do you think should be added? Remember I am not thinking about the most powerful spells, or the coolest spells, but the ones that a party genuinely needs to have access to.

In the midst of the brew haha about armor spikes and two weapon fighting, I was thinking about another issue that really need clearing up in the rules.

The word wield is used all over the place in rules, but is never actually defined as a game term. Most of the time its fairly obvious, hold the thing in your hand so that you are able to use it. For instance holding a 2handed weapon in one hand does not count as wielding it. But what about the corner cases where hands are either modified or dont apply. What is the definition of the game term 'wield' and what if any action is required to change that. For instance

Can someone with improved unarmed strike for be considered wielding both his unarmed attack, and a 2handed reach weapon at the same time? What about armor spikes?

I cam agross this game on Kickstarter recently. There is only about a week left, but I thought I would share it in case people were interested.

It is basically a sandbox space exploration/combat/trading game for 3-5 players. Each player takes control of one ship, and can buy upgrades, trade or explore for money and victory points (called fame points) and eventually buy a bigger better ship.

The thing that looks really interesting is how open ended this is, you can win in many different ways, from trading, to piracy, to hunting down pirates for the bounty on them, or just plain exploring space and completing missions you can pick up. Most I imagine will do some combination of these things, but the options seem really intrguing. It strikes me as having a firefly sort of feel to it.

As a gift this past year I received a couple set of Terra clips by Wyrd Miniatures. For those unaware this is modular 3d terrain that has a subtle grid printed on it. So, I finally got around to assembling them with the help of some of my group members (damn things are petty much a 3d puzzle with no guide to go by) and used them for the first time in my last game session.

And I have to say, it was alot of fun. I know sometimes the board can get in the way of description and roleplaying in combat scenarios. But there was something that brought out childlike delight and imagination in my group when presented with beautiful 3d terrain for our game. We used the streets of malifaux and the buildings of malifaux to create a city environment in which we were defending against a kobold assault.

The terrain inspired more dynamic encounters (use of elevations, and terrain) and far more imaginative movement from the players. There was alot more jumping and climbing in this session then usual (including some spectacular leaps by the monk and some spectacular falls by the fighter) and the dm took pains to make the buildings part of the encounters as opposed to just obstacles or platforms.

That is not to say that this couldnt have been done with just white board, or even without a board entierly, it just really helped my group get into the situation and think in 3 dimensions instead of just 2.

Does anyone else have experience using 3d terrain in a game? If so please share your experience as well.

So, I am finally starting up a rise of the runelords game using my copy of the anniversary edition. I have begun the process of getting together my players for the game (my group is large and we have several games going on at once, so its kind of a process to figure out who is or isnt going to play in a given campaign).


Well one of my players wants to play a Sin Eater Inquisitor. When she told me this, I had to stifle a smile, because of the prominent focus on Sin in the adventure. She is still working on her backstory, but in general I feel like a sin eater could be really cool in the adventure, and could turn into some really interesting moments as the main plot unfolds.

But as much as it clicked in my head that this could be really cool, I am not sure about specific events or details to use. I have a sort of writers block on where to go with it. Any advice?

My dm ran the first session of her Jade Regeant campain on saturday, and it was alot of fun, however, I was wondering how many other groups had the kind of emotional impact I did in the game after having run we be goblins. Please note we have only made it part way through the adventure (to be described in a spoiler tag bellow) so please try to avoid further spoilters. I just felt like I needed to share the experience I had with it.

Jade Regent Spoiler:

So I have played through, and also run We be goblins. And I absolutely loved it. It was alot of fun, and it turns out, I got emotionally attached to the characters, and consequently to the licktoad tribe.

So on saturday my dm ran the first session of Jade Regent and we got through the encounter at the Goblin village. And I was seriously sad at the state of the Licktoad Tribe when we arrived. And while we did make an initial attempt at diplomacy, the only character that could speak goblin had a poor charisma and no social skills. So we inevitably fought the goblins of the tribe after they attacked us, and in turn, killed them, presumably all of them (again we only got through the encounter at the village, I dont know if there is or isnt more with the licktoads).

My character mind you would have had no issue taking down the goblins, as a paladin whose group even tried to negotiate with these creatures who had been attacking and killing travelers near sandpoint, he certainly would see the justice in putting them down. But as a player I was just devastated at the sad image of the run down goblin tribe fighting to the last to protect what was left of their village. It was literally gutwrenching for me, and I was apparently visably upset when we brought down cheif gutwad.

I dont even know where im going with this, I just wanted to share my experience with the advneture. And also Kudoes to Paizo for making a long time rpger get emotional over killing goblins after all these years. Seriously, well done.

My girlfriend bought me the aniversary edition of the rise of the runelords for my birthday. I've always wanted to play through rise of the runelords with its rather significant reputation and now with the writers having a second look crack at it after years of feedback, I am quite excited about running what could be one of the best published adventures ever.

My question is, how different is the aniversary edition from the original? Am I likely to get confused reading over advice and commnetary here on the forums (of which I have to assume alot is using the original 3.5 version) but reading and running the aniversary edition?

I am playing a witch character who's race is wayang out of the advanced race guide. I am trying to find a descent miniature to represent him but I cant for the life of me think of even what to look for let alone find one. Any ideas? I prefer pre painted when I can get them, but I am willing to paint if need be.

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So I have had an idea kicking around for a while in my head for a caster who instead of relying on spells works with 'arcane' combat maneuvers. I had always thought of granting a size bonus over levels to balance out the pace at which CMB loses out to CMD at higher levels, but then a few days ago it dawned on my that the magus chasis is a good fit for the class, essentially trading out the 6 levels of casting for the maneuvers. After a little finegling of abilities, I've come up with an initial draft of the class, the Kinetomancer (all names are subject to change):


There are many wielders of magic in this world. But none like the force mage. They don’t conjure creatures from other planes, or bring lightning down from the heavens, or manipulate the minds and bodies of their enemies. They deal in raw and unmitigated will. In force magic. They create direct manifestations of their will either tangible or otherwise to manipulate the world around them. Force mage’s also do not rely on spells and spell slots as does for example a wizard. Instead they have a reserve of Telekinetic energy they draw upon in order to manifest power.

Role: A Kinetomancer is a versatile foe. They have significant capability to deal damage, and can assist their allies with positioning and battlefield control. The also have the ability to use their abilities to enhance martial combat.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: D8
Class Skills:
Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Craft(int), Fly (Dex), Knowledge (Arcana) (int), Knowledge (engineering), Profession (wis), Spellcraft (int), Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skill Ranks per level: 4 + int modified

Good Saves: Will, Reflex
Hit Dice: d8
BAB: ¾

Level ability:

1. Telekinetic Pool, Mage Hand, Telekinetic Defense, Telekinetic Maneuvers, Telekinetic Bolt
2. Telekinetic Combat, Telekinetic Strike
3. Telekinetic Talent
4. Telekinetic Power, Telekinetic Maneuvers (Large)
5. Bonus Feat
6. Telekinetic Talent
7. Telekinetic Power, Telekinetic Bolt 1d8
8. Telekinetic Maneuvers (Huge + 2)
9. Telekinetic Talent
10. Telekinetic Power
11. Bonus Feat, Telekinetic Wrath
12. Telekinetic Talent, Telekinetic Maneuvers (Gargantuan +4)
13. Telekinetic Power
14. Telekinetic Bolt 2d6
15. Telekinetic Talent
16. Telekinetic Maneuvers (Colossal +8)
17. Bonus Feat
18. Telekinetic Talent
19. Telekinetic Power
20. Telekinetic Mastery

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Kinetomancer is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice. A Kinetomancer is not proficient with armor or shields.

Spells: A Kinetomancer does not gain spell slots and cannot cast normal Arcane spells.

Telekinetic Pool (Su): At 1st level, the Kinetomancer gains a reservoir of Telekinetic energy that he can draw upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. This Telekinetic pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his Kinetomancer level (minimum 1) + his Charisma modifier. The pool refreshes once per day after 8 hours rest.

At 1st level, a Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's base price modifier (see the Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions). These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack.

If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the Telekinetic pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the Kinetomancer uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the Kinetomancer.

A Kinetomancer can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.

Telekinetic Defence(Sp): A Kinetomancer’s mastery of Telekinetic power allows him to protect himself using his force of will. When wearing light or no armor, the Kinetomancer receives a deflection bonus to AC equal to his charisma modifier. This bonus applies even if the Kinetomancer is denied his dexterity bonus, but not if he is unconscious.

Telekinetic Bolt (Sp): As a standard action you can unleash an bolt of raw force targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The Telekinetic Bolt deals 1d6 points of force damage + 1 for every two Kinetomancer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. At 7th level the damage for this bolt increases to 1d8. At 14th level the damage increases to 2d6. This ability is a force effect.

Telekinetic Maneuvers (Sp): Beginning at first level a Kinetomancer can attempt certain combat maneuvers using his will instead of his body. The Kinetomancer conjures a tangible construct of pure will and At first level he can attempt combat maneuvers, bull rush, or disarm. These combat maneuvers may be attempted at a range of 5ft per level of Kinetomancer. For the purpose of these maneuvers the Kinetomancer’s CMB is equal to his Kinetomancer level plus his charisma modifier. Any relevant feats such as improved disarm would also modify the Kinetomancers CMB for Telekinetic maneuvers. A Kinetomancer can attempt an Telekinetic maneuver a number of times equal to 1 + his charisma modifier. At 2nd level and each level there after the force mage may attempt an Telekinetic Maneuver an additional 2 times per day.

At 3rd level a Kinetomancer may also attempt to Trip or Grapple as well. At 7th level the Kinetomancer may also attempt a reposition, dirty trick or steal maneuver.

When Attempting a grapple the Kinetomancer does not take a -4 penalty for not having 2 free hands as he does not have use his literal hands to grapple a foe. However he must have at least one hand free in order to conduct an Telekinetic maneuver. When using the move action of a grapple, you may leave the target in any location within your range (still moving the target at half your speed).

When using the Damage action in a grapple, you may if the target is within range attack normally, or you may expend a use of your Telekinetic bolt ability inflict the damage normally done by a Telekinetic bolt to your foe.

As the Kinetomancer gains power the literal size of his Telekinetic power increases. At 4th level the Kinetomancer is considered large when attempting Telekinetic Maneuvers (gaining a +1 bonus to CMB). At 8th level and every 4 levels there after to 16th level the force mage is considered an additional size category larger when attempting Telekinetic Maneuvers.

Mage Hand (Sp): At first level a Kinetomancer can cast the spell mage hand as a spell like ability using his Kinetomancer level as his caster level at will.

Telekinetic Combat (Ex): At 2nd level, a Kinetomancer learns to use his Telekinetic power and wield his weapon at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is an Telekinetic maneuver. To use this ability, the Kinetomancer must have one hand free, while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also attempt an Telekinetic Maneuver. A Kinetomancer can choose to cast the attempt the Telekinetic Maneuver or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he attempt the maneuver between attacks.

Telekinetic Strike (Su): At 2nd level a Kinetomancer may choose to channel a Telekinetic bolt through a melee or ranged attack. As part of the same action a Kinetomancer may make a single melee or ranged attack and expend a use of his Telekinetic bolt. If the attack hits, the effects of the Telekinetic bolt are resolved in addition to the attack. This ability may only be used if a Kinetomancer only attacks once in a round.

Telekinetic Talent: As he gains levels a Kinetomancer learns secrets tailored to his specific way of blending his martial and Telekinetic skills. Starting at 3rd level a Kinetomancer gains a Telekinetic talent. He gains an additional talent at 6th level and every 3 levels there after. Unless it is specifically noted a Kinetomancer cannot take a particular talent more then once.

Hasted Assault (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic Pool as a swift action to move more quickly. This functions as haste, but only targets the Kinetomancer and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Kinetomancer's Charisma bonus. The Kinetomancer must be at least 9th level before selecting this Telekinetic Talent.

Pool Strike (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic Pool as a standard action to charge his free hand with energy. He can make a melee touch attack with that hand as a free action as part of activating this ability. If the touch attack hits, it releases the charge and deals 2d6 points of energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, or fire, chosen when he spends the Telekinetic Pool point to activate this ability). He can use this ability with the Telekinetic Strike class feature. If he misses with this attack, he can hold the charge for up to 1 minute before it dissipates. At 6th level, and every three levels thereafter, the amount of damage dealt by this attack increases by 1d6.

Reflection (Su): The Kinetomancer can sacrifice 1 or more points from his Telekinetic Pool as an immediate action to reflect a spell back at its caster. This functions as spell turning, but only if the targeted spell is of a level equal to or lower than the number of points expended. If insufficient points are expended, they instead grant an insight bonus on any saving throws allowed by the spell, equal to the number of points spent. The Kinetomancer must be at least 15th level before selecting this Telekinetic Talent.

Force Shield (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend a point from his Telekinetic Pool as an immediate action to grant himself a shield bonus to AC equal to his Charisma bonus until the end of his next turn.

Accurate Strike (Ex): The Kinetomancer can expend 2 points from his Telekinetic pool as a swift action to resolve all of his melee weapon attacks until the end of his turn as melee touch attacks. The Kinetomancer must be at least 9th level before selecting this talent.

Telekinetic Cloak (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic pool to add his Charisma bonus to Stealth checks and Bluff checks to create a diversion in order to hide. This bonus lasts for 1 minute.

Telekinetic Edge (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a slashing or piercing weapon in order to deal an amount of bleed damage equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 0). The Kinetomancer must be at least 9th level before he selects this talent.

Telekinetic Redoubt (Su): As a swift action, the Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic pool to treat his shield bonus to AC (including any enhancement bonus) as a bonus to touch AC until the beginning of his next turn.

Telekinetic Redoubt, Greater (Su): Whenever the Kinetomancer uses his Telekinetic redoubt Telekinetic Talent, he may spend an additional point from his Telekinetic pool in order to apply his shield bonus to AC (including any enhancement bonus) as a bonus on Reflex saves until the beginning of his next turn. If he is targeted with an effect requiring a Reflex save while using this power, he may spend 2 points from his Telekinetic pool as an immediate action to grant himself evasion, or 4 points to grant himself improved evasion. The Kinetomancer must have the Telekinetic redoubt Telekinetic Talent and be at least 12th level to select this Telekinetic Talent.

Bane Blade (Su): Whenever the Kinetomancer enhances his weapon using his Telekinetic pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his Telekinetic pool to add the bane special ability to the weapon. The Kinetomancer must be at least 15th level before selecting this talent.

Devoted Blade (Su): Whenever the Kinetomancer enhances his weapon using his Telekinetic pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his Telekinetic pool to add either the anarchic, axiomatic, holy, or unholy special ability to the list of available options. A Kinetomancer may only add one of these abilities if it matches his own alignment. The Kinetomancer must be at least 12th level before selecting this talent.

Disruptive (Ex): The Kinetomancer gains Disruptive as a bonus feat. The Kinetomancer must be at least 6th level before selecting this talent.
Enduring Blade (Su): Whenever the Kinetomancer enchants his weapon using his Telekinetic pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his Telekinetic pool to increase the duration to 1 minute per Kinetomancer level. The Kinetomancer must be at least 6th level before selecting this talent.

Ghost Blade (Su): Whenever the Kinetomancer enchants his weapon using his Telekinetic pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his Telekinetic pool to add the brilliant energy and ghost touch special abilities to the list of available options. The Kinetomancer must be at least 9th level before selecting this talent.

Lingering Pain (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack. All damage from that attack (including damage from a spell cast using the spellstrike ability) is considered continuous damage for the purposes of any concentration checks made by the target prior to the beginning of the Kinetomancer's next turn.

Pool Strike, Arcing (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 additional point from his Telekinetic pool when using the pool strike talent. If his attack hits, the Kinetomancer can target a number of enemies within 15 feet equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 0) with a ranged touch attack as a free action. Those struck take the same energy damage as the primary target of the pool strike, including increased damage on a critical hit. The Kinetomancer must be at least 12th level and must have the pool strike Telekinetic Talent before selecting this Telekinetic talent.

Pool Strike, Clinging (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 additional point from his Telekinetic pool when making a pool strike. A single target of his pool strike takes energy damage as normal from the pool strike and also takes half this amount of damage at the beginning of its turn on the following round. The Kinetomancer must be at least 9th level and must have the pool strike Telekinetic talent before selecting this Telekinetic talent.

Pool Strike, Thunderous (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 additional point from his Telekinetic pool when making a pool strike. His pool strike deals sonic damage and deafens a single target for 1 round (DC 10 + 1/2 Kinetomancer level + Charisma modifier). The Kinetomancer must be at least 6th level and must have the pool strike Telekinetic talent before selecting this Telekinetic talent.

Prescient Attack (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, allowing him to anticipate his opponent's defenses. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus against the Kinetomancer's attacks until the end of the Kinetomancer's next turn. The Kinetomancer must be at least 6th level before selecting this talent.

Prescient Defense (Su): The Kinetomancer can expend 1 point from his Telekinetic pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, granting him a premonition of his enemy's intentions. The Kinetomancer gains a bonus to his AC and on Reflex saves equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 0) against attacks by that opponent until the beginning of his next turn. The Kinetomancer must be at least 9th level before selecting this talent.

Maneuver Training(Ex): The Kinetomancer may take a feat for which he meets the prerequites from the following List: Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Steal, Improved Reposition. This Talent may be taken multiple times. Each time the Kinetomancer gains a different feat.

Greater Maneuver Training(Ex): The Kinetomancer may take a feat for which he meets the prerequisits from the following list: Greater Trip, Greater Disarm, Greater Grapple, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Steal, Greater Reposition. The Kinetomancer must be at least 6th level to take this talent. It may be taken multiple times, each time the Kinetomancer gains a different feat.

Force of will(Su): The Kinetomancer has learned to channel more of his will into his Telekinetic Bolts. By expending 2 uses of his Telekinetic bolt instead of 1, the Kinetomancer may add his charisma modifier to the damage done.

Quickened Telekinetic Maneuver(Su): Once per day as a swift action a Kinetomancer may spend 2 uses of his Telekinetic Maneuvers in order to conduct an Telekinetic maneuver as a swift action. He may not use a second Telekinetic maneuver in the same turn after using this ability unless he has the Telekinetic Mastery Ability.

Extended Weapon(Sp): As a swift action, By spending a point from his Telekinetic pool, the Kinetomancer extends an construct of force out from his weapon. Extending it’s reach by 5ft. The weapon can still strike within its normal reach as well as the extended reach.

Telekinetic Power(Sp): Though the Kinetomancer does not cast spells. He does gain knowledge of the mystic arts. At 4th level he can choose from a number of spell like abilities. Each spell like ability is available from a certain level, as long as they are of that level or higher, a force mage may select that spell as their new Telekinetic power. Unless otherwise stated a Telekinetic power requires 1 point from the the Kinetomancer’s Telekinetic pool to activate. The Kinetomancer’s caster level is equal to his Kinetomancer level, and uses his charisma modifier for any concentration checks.
The Kinetomancer gains an additional Telekinetic Power at 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 16th and 19th levels.

1st level:
Magic Missile, Sheild, Floating Disk
9th level: Interposing Hand, Telekinesis (2 pool points), Mage Armor
12th level: Forceful Hand, Wall of Force
14th level: Grasping Hand, Mage’s Sword
16th level: Telekinetic Sphere, Clenched Fist.
Bonus Feat: At 5th level and again at 11th and 17th levels the Kinetomancer gains a bonus feat. This feat must be either a combat feat, or one of the Kinetomancer specific feats listed at the end of this entry.

Telekinetic Wrath: At 11th level the Kinetomancer gains the ability to unleash his will in a massive wave. Once per day he may create a wave of force that erupts from him and travels in all directions to a range of 60ft. All creatures within this area must make a reflex save with a dc equal to 10+1/2 the Kinetomancers’ level + his charisma modifier or take damage equal to the amount dealt by his Telekinetic bolt. The Kinetomancer may also attempt a free bulrush Telekinetic maneuver against each target that fails it’s reflex save. The Kinetomancer can attempt this an additional time per day at 15th level, and a 3rd time per day at 19th level.

Telekinetic Mastery: At 20th level the Kinetomancer has mastered his Telekinetic powers. He can attempt an Telekinetic Maneuver as a move action. This allows him to attempt more then one Maneuver per round. In addition during a Telekinetic combat, a Kinetomancer may make 2 Telekinetic maneuver attempts in addition to their full attack. If the Kinetomancer has the Quickened Telekinetic Maneuver talent, he can attempt 3 maneuvers in addition to a one handed full attack.

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So I was listening to 3.5 private sanctuary's coverage of Paizocon seminars, specifically Auntie Lisa's Story time. A great story which was intersting enough for me to consider 'accidently' missing my stop on the train this morning so I wouldn't have to cut it short when I got to work.

So anyway one of the questions was the now seemingly ubiquitous, when are we going to have space pathfinder? And she very reasonably explained that in order to do a space rpg she would have to support it on similar levels to Pathfinder proper, with adventures, game aids, setting material and such, in order for it to be successful. She also expressed concerns about splitting the paizo market. And certainly I agree with that, which means a space opera rpg for Paizo isn't going to happen for the forseable future.

But what about Golarion space. We have Numeria, which has a literal crashed space ship. Clearly there is room in golarion for superscience and space travel. What if down the line (presumably not in the next few years) there was an AP that went through Numeria into space. If it was accompanied with a set of supplemental rules made for PFRPG, could it work as an in golarion, in Pathfinder RPG product subset?

We have seen there is room for alot of stuff in golarion. Is there room enough in golarions univers for a few space ships? I think it could be a very fun AP of fantasy characters (made with pfrpg rules) being swept up into an adventure in futuristic space ships. I would be a genre subset, but it wouldn't be a new game or a new world, just a new piece of pathfinder as it is. Much like psionics, ninjas/samurai or guns have additional rules and have their own genre and their own rules, this could have supplemental rules on advanced science, its own advenutre path, but still be part of pathfinder as a whole and part of golarion.

It would probably be more risky then the 'pirate' AP that Skull and Shackles will be, but it wouldnt require a wild departure from the normal releases or a major increase in releases on paizos part. Just the committment of an Adventure path, an RPG product, and a couple setting products to expand the rules and the setting just enough to make it work (much the way the upcomming rules are expanding just enough to have western style games in golarion). It wouldn't be what the hardcore space opera fans want, but it would be a fair compromise that sits right on top of the world and the game that we all have come to love, and possibly give us the tools as players and GMs to build something bigger.

Paizo staff have often said that Golarion is designed to have room for every kind of game people play. Is it possible that there is more room then we all thought?

A friend of mine is looking for a relatively rules light game that works for a super heroes game. Basically he wants to run a super hero game with relatively little prep time, and I was thinking to look for something that was lighter on the rules side then say mutants and masterminds to help bring down the prep required. Anyone have any ideas?

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Ok so a few premises:
-I dont have a problem with a high magic world. I like magic, and wizards and clerics slinging around the powers of the universe is all fine by me.
-I dont like the reliance characters have on magic items. Like many others I want magic items to feel special, and become a part of a characters history, not something more akin to an article of clothing, to be replaced often and without concern. I want to find a way to make magic items rare and special.
-I do believe that without magic items a lot of additional adjustment is required on the part of the dm. Erasing the magic mart mentality has never been easy both mechanically and in the hearts and minds of players. I want to find a way to do it without having to re-write the book and without penalyzing my players.

For a while now I have been considering what to do about this. And though this is for a specific campaign, if it works it may be a permanent change in my games. My solution has two parts. First is an idea borrowed from a poster here on these boards with some minor tweaks (thanks Brodiggan Gale).

heroic distinctions:

Starting at level 3 you may choose 1 heroic distinction you qualify for at each level. Please note Training Bonuses to not stack with
Enhancement Bonuses.

Defensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.

Improved Defensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Greater Defensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Improved Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Penultimate Defensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Perfect Defensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon.

Improved Offensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Greater Offensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Penultimate Offensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Perfect Offensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Lucky: The character receives a +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.

Blessed: The character receives a +3 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 7th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.

Exalted: The character receives a +5 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 13th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.

Hardened: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +1. A character must be at least 6th level before selecting this distinction.

Grizzled: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +3. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hardened distinction before selecting this distinction.

Iron Skinned: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +5. A character must be at least 14th level and have the Grizzled distinction before selecting this distinction.

Strong: The character receives a +2 training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Dextrous: The character receives a +2 training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Hearty: The character receives a +2 training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Intelligent: The character receives a +2 training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Wise: The character receives a +2 training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Charismatic: The character receives a +2 training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.

Mighty: +4 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Strong distinction before selecting this distinction.

Adroit: +4 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Dextrous distinction before selecting this distinction.

Unyielding: +4 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hearty distinction before selecting this distinction.

Inspired: +4 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Intelligent distinction before selecting this distinction.

Attuned: +4 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Wise distinction before selecting this distinction.

Majestic: +4 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Charismatic distinction before selecting this distinction.

Herculean: +6 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Mighty distinction before selecting this distinction.

Alacritous: +6 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Adroit distinction before selecting this distinction.

Titanic: +6 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Unyielding distinction before selecting this distinction.

Brilliant: +6 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Inspired distinction before selecting this distinction.

Enlightened: +6 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Attuned distinction before selecting this distinction.

Awe Inspiring: +6 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Majestic distinction before selecting this distinction.

Magical Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +1 training bonus to the first damage die rolled.

Improved Magical Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +2 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Greater Magical Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +3 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Penultimate Magical Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +4 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

Perfect Magical Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +5 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.

This replaces 5 of the big six items. And in playtests it makes the characters survivable, but it still assumes between 40% and 60% of normal wealth will still be spent on magic gear.

So to go on top of that I am giving each character the option of a free Super Genius Games Archetype without requiring them to trade out one of the starting packages. For those that dont know the supergenius archetype products assign to each base class one or two sets of 'starting packages' that include various class features the class has. It then gives a bunch of new 'archetype packages' that can be trades for those original class features in any class.

The idea here being that the additional abilities provided by the archetypes will cover any remaining 'need' for magic items. You can take a martial or acher archetype to hit harder or have more varied martial abilities. Or you can take a divine or arcane archetype to add utility/buff/healing etc to your character.

My belief is that with these two changes magic items are no longer needed, and can instead be something given during major plot points. I would eliminate all magic items that gave a purely numerical bonus entirely. So there would be no +1 swords, just 'Viruth, the flaming holy great sword'[with no +xbonus required in front of the flaming and holy properties]

What do people think?

So my group has just started part 2 of kingmaker and we have been in discussion about the actual governing of our kingdom and how we are going to handle it. Our original idea was instead of having a monarchy to have a sort of 'High Council' with a prime minister instead of a King/Queen. I have been working out some details of the laws and rights within the kingdom and would like to know what people think.

Lords of the High Council (positions laid out in the kingdom Building rules) – Leaders of the kingdom, have the highest overall authority. Only a majority vote by the High council (including the accused) can bring a high council member up on charges for any crime. After that a trial is held, and decision is rendered by the Prime minister. In the event the Prime Minister is the one being tried, the Councilor renders the descision. If convicted of a capital crime, a High Council member is removed from office and replaced by Majority Vote of the remaining high council. A High council member can only otherwise be removed by a 2/3 vote by the high council.

Vassal – Land Holding Noble (currently only Soothscale with soothscaleholt[one of our cities] and the silver mine). Required to provide taxes based on their lands, and contribute retainers to military and civilian offices. Should someone wish to become a Vassal they must provide the kindom with at least 2 hexes worth of land cleared and explored and have at least 100 retainers to provide administration and protection, as well as freeman to work and tend to the land. Each vassal must provide at least 25 retainers per hex to military and civilian offices.

A vassal has the right to bring charges before the high council in case of any grievance. Such proceedings would be handled by the king himself. A vassal may not be detained until the conclusion of such proceedings.

Retainer – Knights, Squires and Quartermasters, who are beholden to a Vassal or Lord of the Council, and are required to perform services for the kingdom (according to their skill) when called upon. A retainer has the right to bring and face charges before the Councilor and a panel of his magistrates in case of any grievance, for a trial. A retainer may not be detained except on direct order of the high council, or at the conclusion of such proceedings.

Citizen – In order to gain citizenship a freeman must give 5 years of military service, or 10 years of civilian service (under the non-military high council members such as Councilor or Head Diplomat) in order to gain citizenship. All citizens receive a piece of land sufficient to provide for a household, upon completion of their service They ofcourse may continue that service as long as they are able if they wish or retire after the 5/10 year period. In case of any grievance a citizen has the right to bring it before one of the Councilor's Magistrates for a summary judgment.

A citizen may only be detained by order of a Magistrate (or higher authority) or if they commit a crime directly witnessed by agents of the law (Marshal/Warden’s men).

Any Citizen can be tasked by a Vasal Or Lord to maintain and manage their lands. In relation to any issues that occur on the lands he is responsible for, a Steadholder has the same rights as a Retainer.

Freeman – Any normal person living within the kingdom. A freeman has the right to work and live on the lands of a noble (or the High Council Lords), and in return pay a tithe proportional to the kingdoms current tax rate. Any gouging of freeman (tithe being charged not in line with the current tax rate) will be punished by the seizing of lands held by that noble. All freeman have the right to leave the lands they are on at any time, but while there, must obey the rule of the Vassal or Lord who owns them. Freeman cannot themselves bring up charges to the courts, however their Lords/Vassals can bring charges to the Magistrates in the name of any freeman residing on their lands.

Vassals have the right and responsibility to enforce the Council’s Law on Freeman who occupy their lands.

The Low Council – The Low Council is made up of the Second in commands of all the high council members who assist them in the execution of their duties and act with their authority in the matters of their Bailiwick. All Low Council members are Retainers of their respective Lords. They have the authority to give orders to anyone besides a high council member within their Bailiwick.


Treason – Providing assistance, comfort, or information to enemies of the Kingdom, and acting directly against it’s interests.
Sentence – Death, Permanent Imprisonment, Exhile(this is reserved exclusively for people duped into treason).

Murder – Killing of another person within the kingdom without justification
Sentence – Death, Permanent Imprisonment

Theft – Unlawful removal or destruction of property. This includes larceny, robbery, destruction of propery, fraud, tax evasion, and corruption.

Sentence – Payment of value for removed/damaged property once to the victim and once to the crown (Nobles are responsible for this payment of their retainers/steadholders in the event they themselves cannot pay), and one of the following:
-up to 10 years of indentured servitude in service of the victim. The accused can choose to instead pay the value of the years of labor instead. Should the accused not be able to pay the first part of the sentence, the value of that fine is also to be added to the term of servitude.
-imprisonment of a term to be set by the presiding authority (this is reserved for repeat offenders)

Assault – Physical harm to any person or persons in the realm.
Setance – Payment of any medical treatment required by the victim, and a matching payment to be made to the realm (anyone not able to pay must enter indentured servitude to work off the debt) as well as
-up to 5 years indentured servitude in service of the victim or
-up to 10 years imprisonment set by the Presiding Authority.

All rates and lengths of servitude are to be based on the prevailing wages of a worker of the accused’s skill.

The victim has the right to determine the nature of the service the accused is to provide in the case of such a sentence. These services should coincide with the known skills of the acused, and are subject to judgement by the prevailing authority.

Time spent in indentured servitude that is within military or civilian service does not count towards the time needed for citizenship in the event the accused is not a citizen.

During servitude the accused retains any rights, standings, or property they previously held (besides what might be forfeited to pay a fine) but must obey all reasonable requests by the victim in service of their duty. Failure to do so requires a re-evaluation of sentence by the presiding authority over the original case.

Rights of all:

The First Right
All people have a right to live and work within the kingdom regardless of race so long as they obey the Council’s law including direct orders by the council and their subordinates. Any interference with this right is to be considered by law the crime of theft (removal of ones ability to live and work is akin to stealing their wages).

The Second Right
All people of the kingdom have a right to speak their minds and gather in public or in private as they see fit, so long as they obey the Council’s law including direct orders by the council and their subordinates. Any interference with this right is to be considered treason

The Third Right
All people have the right to bear grievances in open meetings(schedule of which will be no less then 8 hours once a week in the capital) of the Low Council, which if deemed appropriate by low council members will be dealt with or brought before the high council. Any intervention with this right is to be considered treason (preventing members of the kingdom even freeman from bearing their grievances before the low council harms the kingdom on a fundamental level)

The Fourth Right
All people have the right to basic property, even freeman. A man’s home and his possessions may not be taken without the authority of law. A landholder has the right to evict a freeman but must pay the freeman a fair value of any home that must be left behind. Any eviction gains precedence over other cases in being brought as a grievance before the low council.

The Fifth Right
All people have the right to bring crimes to the attention of Wardens/Marshals for investigation. If in the course of that investigation officers of the Council's Law determine a crime has been committed, the office of the Counciler will determine further action. Interference with this right is to be considered treason under the Council's Law.

In my group's kingmaker campaign our dm is having us create second in commands for all our leadership positions. Basically since there is still an assumption of the players going off and advneturing, someone needs to stay behind and keep things running. We have a fairly large group, and most of the positions are filled by players, so SOMEONE has to run the kingdom.

The NPC seconds are to be one level lower then us (we are currently level 4). My character is a Magus, and I am the kingdom's General, so I have created this NPC to be my second in command. Without any spoilers, do you think this character will be useful in assisting a kingdom's general in this adventure?

Colonel Sand Glocka

Human Arcane Duelist bard 3
N Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Perception +4

AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
hp 31 (12+8+2d8+2)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2;

Speed 30 ft.
Melee rapier +5 (1d6+1/18–20) or
whip +4 (1d3+1)
Ranged shortbow +4 (1d6/×3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (15 ft. with whip)
Special Attacks bardic performance 10 rounds/day (Ralying Cry, distraction, fascinate [DC 13], inspire courage +1), Inspire Competance +2

Bard Spells Known (CL 2nd; concentration +5)
1st (4/day)—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, Remove Fear, Charm Person (DC 13)
0 (at will)—dancing lights, daze (DC 12), ghost sound (DC 12), message, prestigiditation, Mending

Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 15

Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Dodge, Skill Focus (Perform [Oratory]), Weapon Finese, Combat Casting, Arcane Strike

Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +8, Knowledge Engineering +7, Knowledge Local +7, Knowledge Nobility +7, Perception +4, Perform Oratory, +10, Ride +7, Sense Motive +4

Languages Common, Draconic
SQ Bardic Performance, Cantrips

Gear masterwork studded leather, buckler, mw rapier, shortbow with 20 arrows, whip, pen, ink, paper, sealing wax, seal, light horse (combat trained) with riding saddle

Last night I ran a playtest with a few friends online via skype, and some jerry rigged map and rolling tools (mostly done with irc script).

There were 4 party members a dwarven gunslinger (using a musket), a dwarven cleric (battle cleric), an elven rogue (finesse and currently using only a single short sword) and a human fighter (2handed combat with power attack and cleave). I controlled the cleric as a dmpc, and 3 players controlled the other characters.

character creation: We rolled 4d6 drop the lowest for stats, and we rolled for starting gold. For the gunslinger we used the highest current total (5d6x10)

The gunslinger: Her stats after modifiers were as followed:
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 19
Wis 16
Cha 7

Her first level feat was point blank shot.

For gear she rolled a 15 therefore starting with 150 gp for gear. This was a problem right from the beggining. I was not allowing crafting prior to the start of the game so after she bought armor(studded leather), a melee weapon and basica adventuring gear, she had enough money left over for 6 normal shots and 3 paper cartridges. 9 shots.

She also took survival and perception as her first level skills and a hp as favored class bonus (for a total of 13hp at first level)

The scneario was the party had heard of a group of farms being harrassed about a days travel away from their current town being harassed by a group of goblins. The party decided to track down the goblin lair and deal with them.

To start off with the gunslinger's player was pleased. She had a good perception and suvival so she lead the party through the wilderness in search of the goblin lair.

First encounter:
On the way they encountered a group of hungry wolves that failed to ambush them due to the gunslingers keen senses. This fight was rather quick. The gunslinger went first firing a shot and wounding one of the wolves. The 2handed fighter then moved up and cleaved, killing both of them with good damage roles.

As they got closer to the area around the farmsteads, they discovered sets of tracks. The gunslinger with a good survival check the gunslinger identified them as humanoid footprints likely goblin and the party decided to follow them leading away from the farmsteads.

Second encounter: Goblin patrol (3 goblins)
On their way they encountered a group of goblins apparently out on patrol (the party was near to the cave where the goblins made their lair).
The rogue went first here, moving up and killing one of the goblins with a sneak attack. The goblins went next both attacking the rogue, trying to flank him. The fighter then went and lent support to the rogue (essentially greating a 4 person flank chain). The gunslinger went next firing and killing one of the goblins, there was a cheer as she thought she gained a grit, but as she had not used one yet this day, she was already at her maximum. On a series of bad attack rolls the cleric, rogue, remaining goblin and fighter all missed their next attacks for the next 2 turns. The gunslinger reloaded and then on the second turn fired, and the looming threat struck, a roll of a 2, a misfire. She decided to spend a grit point to quick clear the jam with her move action. The cleric then hit and killed the last goblin.

Shortly after this encounter they located the entrance to the lair, they watched another goblin patrol leave they lair, and then carefully made their way inside.

3rd encounter:
Inside they ran into a pair of goblins and their pet goblin dog playing a game of dice. Upon seeing the adventurers they grabed their weapons and attacked.

The goblins went first attacking the fighter and rogue wounding them. Then the fighter went, 5ft stepping past the goblins and cleaved attacking the goblin dog, wounding it but not killing it and killing one of the goblins. Then the dog went attacking the fighter and further injured the fighter. The gunslinger then shot at the remaining goblin but missed due to the penalty for firing into combat. The rogue went and slightly wounded the remaining goblin. The cleric went and healed the fighter with cure light wounds as he was badly injured.

He also made a heal check to determine the degree of injury of their opponents (we normally allow this as a free action to determin injured, badly injured or near death) the golbin was injured and the goblin dog was near death. What happened next infuriated me in 2 ways. First the cleric told the fighter to attack the goblin instead of the dog and leave the dog for the gunslinger to kill so she can get back a grit. This kind of metagaming didnt make me happy, but then the gunslinger player said dont bother, indicating she didnt feel it mattered. Neither of these two revelations made me happy with the existing grit mechanics.

The combat lasted 2 more rounds with the gunslinger fired another shot but failed to hit, the fighter and rogue flanked and finished off the remaining foes.

4th encounter:
Further into the lair the party ran into 2 giant spiders. In this combat the fighter decided to fire one shot and then realizing she only had 3 rounds left drew her melee weapon and used that instead. The fight took a while and was difficult, but eventually the party killed the two spiders.

At this point they took stock, they had found 2 cure light potions so they were able to heal up fairly well, but the gunslinger only had 3 rounds left 2 paper cartridges and 1 regular shot. This was obviously a concern as they had no idea how much was left between them and the presumed goblin leader. She wasnt useless with her axe (her backup melee weapon) but its not really fun to be a glorified warrior.

5th encounter: this was the final fight, against the goblin leader, a cavalier on a goblin dog mount with a goblin cleric and 2 regular goblins.

This was a rather difficult fight for the party, by the end of it both the rogue and the fighter were unconcious, and the gunslinger was completely out of ammo, it was actually the cleric that finished off the goblin cleric (who was the last remaining enemy). The cleric revived their allies, gathered up what they could find including the head of the goblin leader and set the rest to fire, hoping to drive off any additional goblins in the area they hadnt dealth with.

Impressions: It sucks to play a low level gunslinger, particularly from level 1. If you are not permitted to craft prior to the start of the adventure (which many dms do not allow) you will be VERY short of ammunition. The gunslinger player was still not pleased with attacking every other round. There are options to improve this but they dont come into play until later levels when you can afford more alchemical cartridges and have the feats to take rapid reload (as well as the lightning reload deed). This is a major problem and in no way worth it. The standard firearms (pistol and musket) are just plain poor at low levels.

I dont like grit and deeds as they stand. The mechanic is poor. Low starting value makes players want to hoard it, and thus miss out on recovering it, it also encourages the WORST kind of metagaming (hence the example where the cleric thought to have the fighter not finish off an opponent but let the gunslinger do it to gain back the grit). But whats worse is the player didnt even care to do it. At low levels the only worthwhile thing to do with grit most of the time is to clear jams. It is not until level 3 that grit is even remotely interesting. For the defining feature of the class (cuz it certainly isnt using crummy guns) that is a major problem in my opinion.

I dont like guns as they stand. Seriously, I REALLY dont like the gun rules, particularly at low levels. There is a huge investment required for them to just be slightly worse then crossbows. Misfires counter the good crit multiplier and untill you invest a feat, get deeds and get expensive alchemical cartridges, you are still firing every other turn. There is nothing more depressing then a player stating their turn is, 'i load my gun' and moving on. Does it get better at around level 7? Yes, but that doesnt help 1-6. Also, at low levels, touch AC doesnt make much of a difference, the main 'advantage' of firearms means very very little at low levels. All but the final boss had touch ACs within 1 or 2 of their normal AC. For all the trouble, it just isnt worth it at low levels.

Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and
either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.
Cost: 12 gp.

Presumably this should be reduce instead of increase? Seems like a poor use of 12 gp otherwise.

I was debating whether to put this in the rpg section or here, but I decided there were too many spoilers to park it in plain view.

So my current campaign is moving along and I am starting to give serious thought to how I am going to pull off it's planned climax.

If you are in my campaign, stop reading now.

Background and plan:

My current campaign is a modified council of thieves game, essentially I am removing the entirety of the main plot, the council of theives is not the antagonist, nor any members, House thrune is. They sent agents to deliberately sabotage the Nessian Spiral and then work out a deal with Liebdaga to reinstill additional havoc. The children of westcrown are removing a lot of the fear that dictators so love in their people, giving them hope, that has to stop. Alot of the major elements of the campaign remain similar with just the underlying antagonist being far more visible (the evil empire) and the potential for a 'bigger' climax.

The plan being the party eventually unites the local nobles, most of the hellknights [excluding the order of the rack] and foreign forces in the liberation of cheliax from house thrune entirely.

As the players begin to succeed thrune will become more desperate and essentially open a portal to hell, releasing increasing numbers of devils into the world. The final battle in the war will be the players (with a fair amount of help) confronting Mammon on the battlefield (havent yet decided his stats but I anticipate the party being right around level 20 at this point).

But that isn't where I want to stop this. I had an idea that I think could be interesting, revolving around Aroden. What if he didnt die, but in fact was captured and imprisoned in hell by Asmodeus? He certainly gained quite a bit by Aroden's absence, so it makes a certain amount of sense. So my plan is that 2 dukes of hell, one former and one current (Liebdaga and Mammon) were entrusted with the keys (uniquely shaped giant rubies infused with powerful magic) to the chains restraining Aroden. When the party defeats or banishes Liebdaga at the end of my version of the Infernal Syndrome, they will get their first flashes (literally) of Aroden(as an unknown figure) chained in hell being tormented.

I plan to drop hinds about it as things proceed, ultimately culminating in Mammons defeat, they will get the full picture. At this moment Iomedae becomes aware of the situation (one of her paladins is in the party after all). At which point she would appear before the party with a request, she wouldn't be a match for Asmodeus deep inside hell, but she (possibly with help from powerful Archons) could hold him at bay while the party moved to free Aroden with the keys.

Assuming the party accepts the challenge my concern is this, obviously pathfinder has not yet delved into epic or deity rules, so some amount of abstraction of the battle between iomedae and asmodeus would be required, but how much?

My thoughts are to describe the fight cinematically, and to have the plane literally shake and shudder when a wounding blow is delivered. Possibly if Iomedae confronts him with the Aid of Archons, to have after a certain number of rounds, have one archon killed, then another, then describe Iomedae as considerably wounded, to heighten the tension of the moment as party scrambles to get past (or quickly defeat) the minions of hell to use the two keys to release aroden so everyone can escape.

So basically my questions are, do you think the idea would be a fun climax for an extended council of theives game? And what about representing the combat among the immortals, and presentation to the players?

Ok, so I am sure many have already brought this up, but this is really frustrating me. I am trying to put together a gunslinger npc to add to my pathfinder game, and I cant. I just dont have the room for all the feats this class needs. The sad thing is, the fighter in it's normal form is more suited to gunfighting (as it stands) then the gunslinger. This is pretty rediculous if you ask me.

To present my example, I decided i want my character to take the gunslinger feat from the campaign setting, not a crazy idea I think. But in doing so it means I have to squeeze out feats this class absolutely needs. Namely, the shooting feats point blank and precise shot, rapid reload/lightning reload, extra grit (you get a pitifully small amount of grit to begin with), quickdraw (why isnt this a built in bonus feat exactly? Theres a class ability that works with quickdraw, why the feat tax to make a gunslinger seem like a gunslinger?). God help you if you want to go two weapon fighting it.

I find I have to leave important stuff out, like weapon spec (the only real benefit the class gets from being a 'fighter alternate') and vital strike for when (most of the time) the character is only firing one shot a round.

At level 8(the character's level) the normal fighter would get 3 more feats, giving me enough room to actually allow weapon focus and the gunslinger feat (for which weapon focus is a prereq). And what do I get for my trading of those 3 feats? Grit points and deeds, of which the most important one will require me to take 2 additional feats to make the class work in the first place (lightning reload and signature deed).

I really dont think i've ever seen this before, where a class was so heavily feat taxed without sufficient bonus feats (or class features) to make up for it.

Module/Adventure: This was an improvised playtest done online between myself (as dm) 4 others that are not part of my normal gaming group. The premise was that the party was infultrating a giant's lair to retrieve a special macguffin. It was based off a series of encounters I pulled from an old campaign I ran years ago.

Party Setup: The party was 11th level, with standard wealth by level for their level in gear. 20 point buy was used. Except for the Magus playtest documents, it was core rules and advanced players guide.

Female Human magus, using a rapier as her primary weapon but was strength based and wearing mithral fullplate (I found the choice interesting and yes the character had heavy armor profficiency as a feat since she only had medium proficiency untill level 13). In terms of her spell book we decided she could have normal spells gained at each level plus 1 spell at each character level for just the cost of scribing it (as if she had encounters a spell book in treasure) and the rest had to come from scrolls bought.

Half Orc Male fighter (sword and board fighter going the two weapon fighting/sheild bash route).

Human Oracle of battle. Had the battle Cry Revalation, and combat healer, and I believe skilled at arms and weapon mastery.

Half Elf Bard - This character was an archer bard with a fair amount of buffing added in.

Initial Impressions: I had a look at the magus' sheet and found the player's spell choices interesting. She had listed the spells prepared for the day(3 uses of chill touch, and a little more utility and battlefield control and offensive spells). But the reason for this became clear soon enough. The character seemed to have a descent AC, and saves, and pretty good hit points (around a hundred if i remember right)

First Encounter:
3 Hill Giants were guarding the entrance to the lair. The party was able to approach without being noticed due to plenty of cover as they approached the entrance. The guards were playing a 'dice' game that involved sizable boulders, so the party decided to try to sneak past them with an invisibility spere. They almost succeeded too, had it not been for a particularly poor role on the part of the fighter.

When they heard the noise of the fighter's clanking armor they pulled a hiden lever that barred the entrance to the lair and a fight ensued. It wasnt long before I realized this party synergized extraordinarily well. The oracle's battle cry and the bard's inspire courage actually stacked for attacks (1 being morale and 1 being competance), and with 3 of the 4 characters able to supply buff spells, they had a pretty easy time with the hill giants. The fighter and the oracle both moved to engage a hill giant each, though the oracle cast a buff on himself first, with the bard staying behind, starting his song and casting haste on the whole party.

The magus started off with spending an arcane pool point to turn her +3 sword into a +5 flamming sword. Moved into range of the nearest giant and cast chill touch. I thought this was an odd move even though the giant failed his save and took 1 strength damage(grumble), but realized that now the magus was essentially holding a +5 flamming chilltouch sword for her next 10 attacks. [the hill giants had already spent their actions throwing rocks at where they thought the noise was coming from]

During the subsequent rounds the party quickly overwhelmed the giants, with the buffs from both the battle cry and the bard song, as well as a well placed glitterdust by the bard. Odly enough the magus chose not to use spell combat (as she didnt want to lose the 'held' charges of chill touch. Though the save wasn't hard for the giant, after a couple rounds he had taken 4 strength damage from chill touch before he was killed.

Second Encounter:

With the guards down, the party proceeded into the lair, no longer making much effort at stealth (too many full plate wearer's in the party). The came upon a chamber where they found what appeared to be a giant priest (Human with the giant template applied and cleric levels) and 2 stone giants(who were sitting on stone benches some way away from the altar the priest was next to) in the middle of a ritual sacrifice of an elf child. With the lack of stealth there wasn't a surprise round, and the magus went first. This was the first use we saw of spell combat and spell pool. Intent on saving the girl, the magus again used an arcane pool point to enhance her weapon to +5 flaming, then used pool spell to cast dimension door which she had not prepared, and went next to the priest and attacked him, hitting him twice and standing between him and the alter the child was on.

The other 3 characters double moved into the room which was crowded with stone benches but were intercepted by the two stone giants.

The cleric bestowed curse on the magus, providing a -4 penalty to attacks saves and skill checks.

On subsequent turns the bard and the fighter primarily fought the stone giants and the oracle attempted (somewhat unsuccessfuly) to get to the magus, still protecting the child though her attacks were not of much use. She ended up using spell combat more to ensure success on her concentration checks then to actually try and hit. But with clever use of what spells she had prepared, she did hold off the giant priest long enough for the oracle to get there and remove the curse. Black tentacles came in handy despite the giants fairly favorable CMD.

Third (Final) Encounter:
The third and final encounter occured when the party found the room where the item they were seeking was kept. This time the bard went some distance ahead (stealthily) and found the room contained a cloud giant (the giant king) and 3 fire giants. This was going to be a tough fight and the party took a few rounds to buff before entering the room.

This time it was actually the fighter that faced the main enemy, the cloud giant (more as a matter of positioning then as a concious tactical choice), and the magus made good use of her spell combat to improvise some protection for her to aid the other party members. The fire giants suddenly were less eager to attack her after she put up a chill fire shield in her first spell combat. And a well placed grease actually caused one of the giants to fall over. The oracle made good use of combat healer as he remained within a 5 ft step of both the magus and fighter for most of the fight.

The bard was knocked unconcious near the end when he decided to take his ranged attacks despite not being able to back away from the giant threatening him. At the end of the fight, most of the party had spent most of what they could. Everyone was low on hitpoints, spells, and the magus had 1 arcane pool point left.

Overall Impressions:

In the third fight I think I saw what the real potential of the magus was. She was well buffed (by both her own and other spells) and made good use of alot of her abilities. Combining attacks and a few control spells made for a potent mix. And the damage the character could put out when hasted and casting damage spells together was considerable. But I think the best use of spell combat was when she was doing things other then damage with the spell. A well placed web, or casting invisibility after her attacks to make hitting back harder.

None of the other characters felt overshadowed, and 2 of them were also caster/combat mixes. And it was usually still the fighter dealing the most damage, except for a few turns where the magus cast big damage spells and hit with both attacks and was buffed to a similar or greater degree then the fighter.

One of the things I noticed about the magus that is different from other fighting/casting mixes (be they base classes or prestige classes) is that the mix is pretty seamless, and even if they dont have a chance to buff before a fight, they arent waiting several rounds before they get into the thick of things. Enhancing your weapon is a swift action (and the magus in this test did that every round). And using spell combat the magus can buff and attack in the same round. Sure the attack is just a 3/4 bab full attack with a 1handed weapon, but its something, as opposed to not getting to do anything offensive the first turn or two.

The 15 minute workday problem seems to have been resolved by the arcane pool. But can we come up with a less then 3 word way to refer to the points? Arcane Pool Point is a bit clumsy to say (minor quibble I know).

Also, there was some confusion about the close range arcana. It says there must be a single target, but how does that work with something like scorching ray? Does it work? Is it more then one touch attack? Can it be used with spell strike? If so how does that work?

Overall I have to say, I liked seeing the class in action. It definately feels different from anything I have seen before. And I look forward to including them in my game and maybe playing one down the line.

Hi Everyone. I did a preliminary run of a encounter(that includes a Magus) I plan on running against my players in my Friday game yesterday with another pair of friends not in the game. If I am introducing something untested as what is planned to be a hard encounter (which this is) I always prefer to do a dry run first, to make sure my plan isn't going to result in a party wipe. So if you are in my game, stop reading now, though really it isnt going to give much away besides the encounter itself.

Module/Adventure: This is an encounter in a modified version of the Council of thieves AP (basically I really liked volume 2 and 3 of this AP but preferred to take it off the rails into and out of those two adventures).

minor spoiler alert:

Party: Party is level 7 and includes:
A sword and board paladin that shield bashes with two weapon fighting
A super genius time thief that also two weapon fights
An infernal sorcerer that is more or less mobile artillary
An archer based inquisitor
A monk/rogue that specializes in improvised weapons.

Encounter: This included a rapier wielding level 8 Teifling Magus along with 2 bearded devils. The Magus is initially invisible and hiding along with the devils under his command, and they ambush the party as they are on their way to investigate the massive explosion at the mayors mansion. The monsters put this at CR9 but the fact that they are prepped and laying in ambush pushes this closer to 10. For a 5 person level 7 party it should be tough.

How it went.
The magus started off with a scorching ray in the surprise round (making him visible) and had 2 buffs up at the start of the fight. The devils teleported in and amongst the party in the surprise round. After that the magus worked on getting in full attacks (with spell combat) against the party while the devils tried to keep the party from being able to focus on him. He used Arcane Accuracy and Spell Shield several times during the fight. And with 2 allies that were immune to fire damage he got in a good shot with fireball hitting the whole party.

Then end results was a real hard fight with the time thief going unconscious but not dieing thanks to quick action from the paladin. It was definitely a hard fight and really stretched the party, but that was the idea.

Observations: This class is going to have SERIOUS 15 minute workday problems. The majority of its abilities revolve around casting spells or using up spells slots to supplement fighting. But it has a very limited number of spells slots. Between The swift/immediate actions of things like spell shield and arcane accuracy, and Spell combat, in 1 surprise round and 5 rounds of combat and a couple buffs cast pre-combat I had exhausted all but a couple of my 1st level spell slots in one fight with an 8th level character. I dont think the abilities are too powerful or not powerful enough, but with all of them using the Magus' spells for fuel, he runs out quick. Unlike the bard, or the inquisitor (other 6 level casters) who supplement combat with not just spells but other resources (bane, songs etc) the magus is VERY reliant on it's spells slots.

The character had some trouble hitting when he wasnt using spell accuracy but I think part of that comes from the elite array and NPC gear. A player with 20point buy and level appropriate wealth for a pc probably would have had a couple more points higher to hit.

Overall I like it. I am really pleased with spell combat and the feel of it in general. The starting penalty for spell combat (-4) is a little steep for a class that doesn't have a huge to hit to start, and maybe allowing a feat in ultimate magic to mitigate it (possibly instead the improved and greater varieties) like two weapon fighting does may be a good idea. Also with combat casting, the dc for the concentration check wasn't too hard, but he did still fail it on 2 of 5 attempts.

So there has been a fair amount of discussion of things that were ill recieved in the new APG, and I though I was/am among those who found things we didnt like, there is still loads of good stuff in this book. I am floored by the quality, and really pleased by whats in here.

So, what do you like the most?

For me, though its not an easy choice, I have to choose the feats, all of them. I have never seen such concentrated awesome before in my life. I was reading through it yesterday seeing if there was anything interesting there for the 3 characters im currently playing of for the NPCs in the game I'm running. And well, I wanted to use almost all of them. I cant remember ever looking through any product and just wanting to use almost every single feat in some form or another. I really look forward to getting to use them and the rest of the book.

Ok so rather then continue to derail another thread, I thought I might take this out. I want to devote this thread to a numerical comparison of published monsters vs pcs with and without 'level appropriate' gear that is mostly made up of the big six. We've talked this to death, I'd like to actually look at numbers here.

I think we can all agree that at the lowest levels it doesnt matter at all (how much bix six gear is a level 3 character going to have anyway?). So points of comparison: Level 6, level 10, level 14, level 18.

For the purposes of this encounter I'd like to look at single monstry type encounters. Namely 2 monsters of CR party level -1, and 4 monsters of level - 3. Never do it vs a single monster, pick several (I like 5 but feel free to deviate) for the CR, and average their saves, AC, CMD/CMB, attack bonuses, and the DC's for their offensive abilities (things like a dragons breath weapon, a vampires dominate etc).

I'd like to look at 15 and 20 point buy characters.

My first example cut from another thread:

Human wizard 15 point buy - no big six items.

Str: 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 16 (+2 racial)18 Wis 10 Cha 8

Presumably at 4 and 8 the wizard increased his int. Bringing it to 20 natural.

His spell DCs are:
level 5 - 20
level 4 - 19
level 3 - 18
level 2 - 17
level 1 - 16

His saves are
Fort +4 Ref +5 Will + 7

Lets look at some of the CR 9 monster's saves and abilities shall we?

Greater Air elemental:
Fort: +12, Ref +18, Will +6
wirlwind: DC 23

Young Blue Dragon:
Fort: +10 Ref +8 Will +8
Breath Weapon: DC 18

Greater Fire Elemental
Fort +12 Ref +16 will +6
Burn: DC 20

Vampire: Fort +13 Ref +11 Will +12
Dominate: DC 22
Energy Drain DC 22
Fireball DC 21
Web DC 20
(yes i am leaving out 1st level spells as I think given their tendancy to be BBEGs and not minions vampires generally are not forced down to their lower level spell slots for offense.)

Fort +15 Ref +12 Will +10

All these monsters have an average strong save of:
Moderate Save of
Weak save of

The average of their offensive abilities is 20.85

That unmodified wizard has a best DC of 20. For their average strong save these monsters need an average of 6 or better to get it. 9 or better to get it with their middle save and 12 or better with their weak save. That means on their best spell slots vs the monster's weakest saves the wizard still has a 45% chance of failure. Let alone against strong saves where they have a whoping, 75% chance of failure. And this is their limited top spell slots.

Now lets look at those offensive abilities from the monsters shall we?
The wizard needs to get a score of 21 or better (with an average dc of 20.85) to save against them.

For fort thats a roll of 17 or higher. For Ref that is 16 or higher on the die. For their best save, will, 14 or higher. Mr Big Six lacking wizard is in trouble here if you ask me.

Now you can up the point buy to 20, and things will edge a little bit in the wizards favor, but he probably still only has a 20 or 21 int (buying a straight 18 in pathfinder point buy is pretty crippling if you ask me). His saves might improve a little if he puts his points into wis, dex or con, but you are talking 1 or 2 here. He is still crazy outgunned by the monster abilities and their saves.

I think each of these monsters assume that Mr. Wizard has some stat improving and save boosting items.

Given the recent third printing of the core rulebook and the updates to the bestiary I thought I might bring this up to see if how others feel.

I personally dont like the idea of incorparating errata directly into printed or pdf materials. I expect it can lead to alot of confusion as people can potentially have different words in their rulebooks. Its one thing if they are exclusively clarifications, or re-wordings. But some of them, like the errata of the paladin's smite are deliberate changes. A player at my table with a new copy of the rulebook will have different rules then the rulebook I bought when pfrpg first came out.

I dont have a problem with Paizo creating errata, and in fact I welcome it. But I would rather see it kept separate in an additional document so people know where the difference is coming from. If it is inline in the book itself its impossible to know errata from original rules.

I think this will cause 2 sets of problems in regards to the table. First is potential arguments that can arise from 2 people having different rules in their hands that have the same covers. If everyone is conciously aware of the errata is wont be a problem, but not everyone follows such things closely, and people forget. This can easily lead to disagreements.

The second potential problem I see is what I call the windows update effect. I know at least a dozen people who would never buy a new version of a windows OS untill the first service pack is released to fix the initial bugs. The idea that customers will get a 'better' product if they wait and buy a later copy of the rulebook cannot be good for initial sales. I own 2 copies of the core rules, I may buy a copy of this latest printing, but others are not going to buy more then one copy of a rulebook, this essentially encourages them to wait many months in the hope that an additional printing will occur.

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So, I've been kicking around the idea of creating a campaign around the world in the dark tower series by Stephen King. I love the setting, technology, magic, old world and new mixed together. It is just facinating. So I've decided while I'm running my current game which is pretty much set, I will work on that. The beggining of that is ofcourse a gunslinger class. I've decided to make it a base class because basically, I dont like prestige classes, but I definately thought about it. This is a very rough draft so feel free to point out errors or inconcistencies.

The Gunslinger
I do not aim with my hand;
He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.
I do not shoot with my hand;
He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.
I do not kill with my gun;
He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.
Remember the face of your father. The gunslinger is a class of noble warriors. Descendants of those who fought along side Arthur Eld, gunslingers are charged with defending Gilead and all members of the Affiliation. Trained since birth, they are all warriors through and through. When they come of age they are tested in combat against their trainer, a challenge not all succeed in. Those that fail are exiled in disgrace. Those who succeed receive their guns and become gunslingers, blessed by Ka, and destined for great things.

Role: A gunslinger is primarily a ranged combatant but he can also provide support through his skills and leadership abilities.

Alignments: Any Lawful

Hit Die: D10

Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge dungeoneering, engineering, History, Local, Nobility, Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Stealth, Swim

Skills 4 + int per level

BAB: Full
Saves: Fort Strong, Ref Strong, Will Weak

1. Guns of your Father 1d6, Quick on the Draw, The will of Ka
2. Dual Gun fighting
3. Gunslinger Talent
4. Ka-tet, bonus feat
5. Gunslinger Talent
6. Dual Gun fighting (improved)
7. Gunslinger Talent
8. Guns of your Father 1d8, bonus feat
9. Gunslinger Talent
10. Dual Gun fighting (greater)
11. Improved Gunslinger Talent
12. Commanding Presence, bonus feat
13. Gunslinger Talent
14. Pay No Heed 1/day
15. Gunslinger Talent
16. Guns of your Father 1d10, bonus feat
17. Gunslinger Talent
18. Pay No Heed Wis/day.
19. Gunslinger Talent
20. Dihn, bonus feat

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency. Gunslingers are proficient with all simple weapons and all firearms. They are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, or using a shield they lose the AC bonus granted by the Will of Ka ability.

Guns of your Father: At first level a gunslinger receives a set of revolvers that are to be his guns. These have been passed down along his family line for as long as it has existed. These weapons count as masterwork revolvers that are one handed weapons and deal 1d6 damage and hold 6 shots each. They require a full round action to reload one revolver. At level 8 the gunslinger’s status has improved. They receive a new set of guns that come from a retired or deceased elder member of their family line. These weapons are masterwork and have at least a +1 enhancement. At level 16 the gunslinger is a leader among leaders. His status is such that he receives a set of guns dating back to the time of Arthur Eld himself (the metal does at least). These guns do 1d10 damage and have at least a +3 enhancement bonus on them.

The Will of Ka: When unarmored, the gunslinger adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a gunslinger gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

Quick on the Draw: A gunslinger is unmatched in quickness in a fight. At first level a gunslinger gains the benefit to draw his weapons lightning fast. They gain the benefits of the feats quickdraw and improved initiative.

Dual Gun fighting: A gunslinger is skilled at fighting with both his guns. At second level he gains the benefit of the two weapon fighting feat. In addition his guns count as light weapons for the purposes of the two weapon fighting penalties. At 6th level they gain the benefit of the improved two weapon fighting feat, and at 10th level they gain the greater weapon fighting feat.

Gunslinger Talent. At 3rd level and every second level there after the gunslinger may choose one of the following gunslinger talents. Unless otherwise noted any single talent can only be taken once:

Bolster Ally: A gunslinger can cause an ally to rise above himself. As a standard action a gunslinger can give an ally a bonus to attack rolls, skill checks and saves for a number of rounds Equal to his gunslinger level. This bonus is equal to the gunslinger’s level/5 (minimum 1). He can use this ability a number of times equal to 3+his wisdom modifier.

I aim with my Eye: A gunslinger is both accurate and deadly with his guns. He gains the benefit of the Precise Shot Feat.

I Shoot with my Mind: A gunslinger is in a state of peace even in the violence of a gunfight. A gunslinger with this ability may add his wisdom modifier to his attack roll for a single shot fired from his guns. He may do this a number of times per day equal to his gunslinger level.

Finger Trick: A gunslinger is taught a trick that allows him to reload his gun rapidly and efficiently. A gunslinger with this talent may reload his gun as a swift action and does not require a free hand to do so.

Double Finger Trick:
A gunslinger has greatly improved at the finger trick. He can reload both his guns with a single swift action.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Finger Trick

Touched: A gunslinger who posses The Touch has powers beyond those of normal men. He gains the use of a single 1st level spell. This spell must be an arcane spell chose from the wizard spell list, and of the Schools, Divination, Enchantment, or Illusion. The gunslinger can use this spell 3 times per day, and his casting stat for the purpose of this spell is wisdom. His caster level for this ability is equal to his gunslinger level.

Prerequisite: 11 wisdom

Improved Touch: A truly exceptional gunslinger has greater power among the arcane. This gunslinger may select a second wizard spell of 1st level, and one of 2nd level. Each must still be within the Divination, Enchantment, or Illusion skills and can be cast 3 times per day per level of spell (so the 2 1st level spells can be cast a total of 3 times per day, and the 2nd level spell can be cast 3 times per day. His caster level for this ability is equal to his gunslinger level.

Prerequisite: 12 wisdom, Touched

Combat Training: A gunslinger may choose and combat feat that he meets the prerequisites for.

Pistol Whip: The gunslinger is adept at using his guns as a melee weapon. A gunslinger using this feat may use his gun to make a melee attack at no penalty. The damage die is one size smaller then the gun is normally, and all modifiers that normally apply to hit and damage (such as enhancements on the weapon, or weapon focus) apply to the pistol whip.

Ka-Tet: At 4th level a gunslinger forms a bond with a group of people he is close to. This can be fellow gunslingers, traveling companions, family or any other cohesive group. He is always aware of their emotional state regardless of distance (this includes across plains) and knows if they sustain any serious injury. They too are aware of his emotional state. If a Ka-Tet is formed among only gunslingers with this ability, then they are all aware of each member of this Ka-Tet in this way.

Bonus Feat: At 4th level and every 4th level there after the gunslinger may choose a bonus feat from the following list: Deadly aim, vital strike, improved vital strike, Weapon focus (firearms), Alertness, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride by Attack, Iron Will, Improved Iron will, Lighting Reflexes, Improved Lighting Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Improved Great Fortitude, Die hard, Toughness.

Improved Gunslinger Talents: At 11th level and every second level there after the gunslinger may choose either one of the gunslinger talents presented above or an improved gunslinger talent from those that follow:

Greater Touch: A gunslinger with this ability has mastered the touch. In addition to learning an additional 1st and 2nd level wizard spell, the Gunslinger gains a 3rd level spell. Each of these spells can be cast up to 3 times per day per level of spell and must be from the divination, enchantment or Illusion schools.

I kill with my heart: A gunslinger does not simply kill, when he fires his gun, his mind body and soul are focused on killing the target. Whenever a gunslinger fires only a single shot in a round he adds his wisdom bonus to the damage dealt.

Improved Quickdraw: A gunslinger is never caught unaware. Whenever the gunslinger is involved in a surprise round he may draw his weapon and fire regardless of whether or not he was surprised.

Wall of Lead: A gunslinger can shoot almost anything out of the sky. Any ranged attack that is made against the gunslinger that is not made by a firearm, such as a bow, crossbow, grenade, thrown weapon or even a rocket, allows the to gunslinger make an attack roll against the projectile. This counts as an attack of opportunity. If the gunslinger’s attack roll matches or exceeds the roll used to make the initial attack he successfully shoots the projectile out of the sky and it is destroyed harmlessly.

Improved Rapid Shot: A gunslinger is trained to fire fast and accurately. When using the rapid shot feat the gunslinger does not take a -2 penalty to his attack rolls.

Prerequisite: Rapidshot, BAB 15.

Commanding Presence: The gunslinger is a leader among leaders. His presence calms even the most tense nerves. All allies that can see and hear the gunslinger get a morale bonus to will saves vs Mind Effects equal to his wisdom modifier.

Pay No Heed: At 14th level gunslinger has the ability to shake off grievous wounds. Once per day he may gain temporary hit points equal to his gunslinger level. At 18th level he may do this a number of times equal to his wisdom modifier (minimum 1)

Dihn: The gunslinger has become the commander of a Keep or City. He gains the benefit of the leadership feat, but his cohort must be another gunslinger. His followers are the guards and other officers of his keep or city.

So the other day I was doing a little thinking about character's I've played. How they have evolved and whatnot, how my playstyle has changed.

All that nostalgia got me thinking. If you could bring back any one character from your gamming past to your next pathfinder game, who would it be and why? [dont worry about rule restrictions, assume anything you needed to be allowed into the game to make the character happen is allowed in this hypothetical game]

For me It would be the character that is my namesake. He was the first 3.0 character I ever played. A Elf sorceror/mindbender named Kolokotroni. Though I played a signficant amount of AD&D before I picked up 3.0, I feel that this was when I truly got 'into' dnd. This character captured my imagination, and represented the first time I played in a long standing (several years) campaign. I enjoyed his ego, and his constant manipulation of just about everyone he interacted with (i mean whats the point of being a mindbender if you dont mess with people right?). There is something special about convincing an NPC to pay you for the use of their own pants.

I did the second session of a playtest tonight. It was the second half of running through the Carrion Hill Module.

The party is level 5 and consists of:
Half Orc Barbarian
Elf Conjuration Wizard
Human Paladin who was sword and shield.
Human Inquisitor (ranged combat focused)
Gnome Summoner with a biped eidolon named tiny (it is medium sized)

We got through several encounters tonight including the final one in the climax

This will contain details of the module, please dont read on if you dont wish that revealed. I made changes to my liking in the adventure, but there are still plot points that are revealed.


The first encounter they faced was in the Vats with the necromancer. It included 10 human zombies and a level 7 necromancer (wizard).

2 characters really shone here. Interestingly enough it was the barbarian and the wizard. The barbarian was able to handle himself excellently, making his acrobatics checks on the platforms without concern, and cleaving through zombie after zombie (and i do mean 2 a turn with the cleave feat). The conjuration wizard was able to blind the necromancer early in the fight, effectively taking him out of the fight. The paladin couldnt do a whole lot here. His full plate and heavy sheild meant he failed just about all his acrobatics checks despite the low DC of 5 and he spent most of the time on the ground. The inquisitor did well here but didnt really outshine anyone. He did good damage, especially with the bane ability. It didnt really seem like the judgements made a huge impact, but bane definitely did. It seems he always had a good reason to chance his judgments or used bane first, so he never really built up all 3 levels of the bonus.

The summoner didnt do a whole lot as the eidolon spent 2 turns wrestling with a black tentacles along with the crocodile the summoner summoned. But once tiny (the eidolon) got loose he did well against the zombies, but not in any way close to the barbarian. They defeated and killed the necromancer.

The found the old church destroyed the monster having beat them to it because they had delayed significantly before and after going into the sunless grove. So the monster gained back 2 of his remaining negative levels (leaving 4).

They moved on to the asylum, where they faced a couple of encounters. The first was against a group of orderlies and 2 lunatics (lunatics were bound and chained). the 4 cr 1 orderlies lasted a whole of 2 turns against the barbarian and the paladin. No one else really needed to do anything.

The next fight was a big one. 4 cr 1 orderlies, 2 cr 1/2 lunatics and 2 rounds into it, Crove (level 9 Wizard 3,Cleric 3 Mystic Thurge 3) entered the fray. The eidolon did really well here taking out 2 of croves summons while the rest of the guys cut through the orderlies to get nearer to crove. After a mostly unsuccessful exchange of webs from the party wizard and crove, and the wizard dispelling croves web and dismissing his own, the barbarian charged and crited crove, dealing his entire HP in 1 hit (42 damage), leaving him at 0 and staggered. The rest of the party quickly finished crove off before he could react.

Immediately after the monster appeared upstairs. Thankfully the party would fight it in the room with the invisibility purge, making it a managable fight even with only 4 negative levels on the CR 10 monster. With natural invisibility negated, it was more like CR 9 i think.

Here the party played it smart, the summoner greased his eidolons clothing, and the wizard greased the barbarian's armor. That pluss a few buffs meant often the monster failed to grapple them. The eidolon, paladin and inquisitor all contributed damage, but it was definately the barbarian (especially while hasted) that did the most, though he also took the most, and went unconcious (but thankfully not dead) when he ended his rage after the fight. Both casters had trouble getting through the monsters SR, so they really focused more on buffing the party at first. Eventually the managed to kill it, but a couple party members and one summoner earth elemental (by the party wizard) were nearly out of hp

My Impressions are that I really like the inquisitor. Even when he was buffed with divine favor, using judgment and bane, he still wasn't the biggest damage dealer, though perhaps that was because he was using a bow. Not really sure there, but seems to me the balance is good on the class.

Again the summoner did well, but was not overpowering. This time things did slow down a little though since he summoned something he wasnt completely prepared for or overly familiar with(a crocodile). Things till went pretty well, and I think both the paladin and especially the barbarian still got to shine even with the eidolon there. If the summoner buffed the eidolon it was almost as good as the barbarian but with a better AC. If the summoner spent time summoning instead, the eidolon was not as good at dealing damage or taking his as either the paladin or barbarian. And though obviously the summons help, they were not game changers.

Philosopher’s Stone: The alchemist learns how to create
a philosopher’s stone, and can do so once per month at no
cost. Creating a philosopher’s stone takes 1 day of work.

Say what now? Am I going to be turning base metals into gold? Cuz I somehow see this angering my dm even at level 20. Is this going to be a magic item in the APG?

On Monday I ran a playtest using a module called Carrion Hill. I normally dont run modules, but I thought something that wasnt my own homebrew stuff would eliminate at least some of the variables involved in a playtest.

The party Consisted of:
A gnome summoner with a Medium Biped Eidolon named tiny.
A gnome oracle with the wave foci
A Human Paladin
A Half Orc Barbarian
An Elf Conjuration Specialist wizard.

We got through 2 encounters in the module, since it was a short session.

First Encounter I modified a little putting in some extra Dark Creepers for the 5th party member, there were 5 of them. Here It was the barbarian who shined, killing 2 a round with cleave and effectively resisting their death throws ability. The Eidolon (Tiny) did ok but got poisoned twice. The summoner himself didnt do a whole lot in the encounter. The paladin and wizard kind of hung back as it seemed the barbarian could have soloed the encounter.

The second encounter with the ghoul, I doubled up on the ghoul for the extra person (I know it raised the encounter by 2 instead of 1 but I felt they could handle it and they did).

Here the paladin shone brightly nearly one shotting one of the ghouls with a crit smite and power attack. The Oracle ended up getting paralyzed trying to get into position and the barbarian dragged him to safety. One on one the eidolon was not a match for the ghoul rogue, he initially had help from the barbarian, but he had to get the paralyzed oracle out. However in the 3rd round the summoner got off his summon (1 round moving into position and 1 to cast the summon) bringing 3 giant spiders onto the field. Together, along with a little help from the wizard, they managed to bring down the second ghoul.

Overall I am still underwhelmed by the oracle. They dont make particularly good healers, or casters. The battle oracle is pretty solid but thats about it. The summoner was on the strong side, but didnt out shine either the barbarian or the paladin when they were doing their thing. And even with 3 spiders out he managed to get through his turn in an amount of time not much more then the wizard did when he was picking a spell. He did however have the stats ready (including augment summoning) ahead of time which I am sure helped.

Given the change that has been made to natural attacks in pathfinder, does anyone else think the multi attack feature of animal companions and now eidolons needs to be reworded. It used to make sense in 3.5, if you had 3 natural weapons one or two were secondary attacks. If you didnt you got the iterative attack at -5. In pathfinders it is distinctly possible to have 3 or more natural attacks and none of them be secondary. A bite and 2 claws for instance which is not an uncommon setup gains nothing from the multiattack feature.

I am not sure if its neccessary, but it seems like its a holdover from 3.5 that just got missed.

Figured I might get this one started.

First one i have is, I am looking at the summoner's Eidolons evolution list, and it says that claws secondary attacks in the evolution description. Does that mean that the bipedal eidolon only has secondary attacks to start?

Ok first off I apologize for yet another thread on this. I didnt want to, and was hoping to get a few responses to posting it in the generic thread. I didnt, and the thread has more or less moved on to more general discussions. Thats said I do want to use this in my home game so I would like some opinions on the class as I have written it. I forget who recommended Spellthane for the name, but I like it and thanks.

The Spellthane

Role: The Spellthane’s focus is using magic to bring the fight to the enemy. Their combat prowess is less then that of dedicated combatants, but when they combine that with their arcane talents they can be a match for most any foe.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The Spellthane class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

BAB: Average (3/4)
Saves: Good Fort, Ref Poor, Good Will

1. Weapon Bond, Weapon Channeling, Armored Casting (Light Armor), Cantrips
2. Spell Channel
3. Weapon Channel (Move 1/day)
5. Armored Casting (Light Shields)
6. Weapon Channel (Move 2/day
8. Defensive Spell Channel
9. Weapon Channel (Move 3/day)
11. Armored Casting (Medium Armor)
12. Weapon Channel (Move 4/day)
14. Armored Casting (Heavy Shields)
15. Spell Channeling (Move 5/day)
17. Weapon Channel (2 spells)
18. Mass Spell Channel
19. (Armored Casting Heavy Armor)
20. Weapon Channel (full attack)

Weapon and armor Profficiencies: Spellthanes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Spells: A Spellthane can cast arcane spells drawn from the Spellthane Spell List. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell the Spellthane must have an intelligence score equal to at least 10+the level of the spell. The Difficulty for the saving throw of the spell is 10+the spell level + the Spellthane’s intelligence modified.

Like other spell casters the Spellthane can only cast a certain number of spells of each level per day. This is the same as that on the Bard’s spell table. In addition he receives bonus spells for a high charisma score if applicable.

The Spellthane’s selection spells is extrememly limited. They begin play knowing 4 level 0 spells and 2 first level spells of their choices. At each new level they gain new spells based on the bard’s spells known table.
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third Spellthane level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level Spellthane spell the bard can cast. A Spellthane may swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
A Spellthane need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Cantrips: A Spellthane can learn a number of cantrips or 0-level spells as noted in the Bard Spells known table. These spells are cast like any other spell but they do not consume any spell slots and may be used again.

Weapon Bond (Ex):
A Spellthane forms a bond with his weapon. Though bladed weapons are common, any weapon that the Spellthane is proficient with can be bonded with. The Spellthane beings play with this weapon which is always of masterwork quality. It is not made of any special material. If the Spellthane attempts to cast a spell without holding his bonded weapon he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is 20+ the spells level. A bonded weapon can be used once per day to cast any one spell the Spellthane knows and is capable of casting. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. This spell can be used along with the Spell Channel Ability.

A Spellthane can add additional magic abilities to his bonded weapon as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a Spellthane with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats). The magic properties of a bonded weapon, including any magic abilities added to the weapon, only function for the Spellthane who owns it. If a bonded weapon's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type.

If a bonded weapon is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the Spellthane prepares his spells. If the weapon is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 day in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per Spellthane level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Weapons replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded item. A Spellthane can designate an existing magic weapon as his bonded weapon. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed weapon except that the new magic weapon retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded item.

Armored Casting (Ex):
At first level the Spellthane does not suffer arcane spell failure for light armor. At 5th level this also includes light shields. When wielding a light shield the Spellthane is considered to have a hand free for somatic components of spells. At 11th level this expands to include medium armor. At 14th level this also includes heavy shields, and the Spellthane is considered to have a hand free for somatic components when wielding a heavy shield. At 19th level the Spellthane no longer suffers arcane spell failure for Heavy armor.

Weapon Channel(Su): The Spellthane is able to store a spell in their weapon. This involves casting the spell as normal but the spell does not take affect. It instead takes affect on the next successful hit delivered with their bonded weapon. Touch and ranged touch spells count as having hit, saves apply as normal. Channeled spells are still subject to spell resistance were applicable. If the spell has multiple targets, it only affects the subject struck by the attack. If the effect is an area effect the area must include the subject struck by the attack as the center or point of origin for the effect. Area effect spells such as this exclude the Spellthane’s square from their effects. At 3rd level the Spellthane can do this with a spell that normally takes a standard action as a move action once per day. At 6th, 9th, 12th and 15th level he can do this an additional time per day.

At 17th level the Spellthane can store 2 spells in his weapon, though still on separate actions. On his next two successful hits with his weapon he decides which spell is used. Despite being able to have 2 spells stored at the same time, the Spellthane can only ever deliver a single spell with each attack.

At 20th level Spellthane has reached the peak of combining swordplay with arcane arts. Every time the Spellthane takes a full attack action he may channel a single spell he could normally cast as a standard action. The Spellthane may never use this ability in the same round he expends a stored spell from his weapon.

Spell Channel(Su):
At 2nd level the Spellthane can sacrifice arcane energy to increase his combat prowess. As a swift action the Spellthane can sacrifice any unused spell slot for a temporary bonus. This bonus applies to either attack or damage at the Spellthane’s choice and is equal to the level of the sacrificed slot. This bonus lasts for rounds equal to the Spellthane’s intelligence modifier (minimum 1).

Defensive spell channel(Su):
At 8th level the Spellthane is able to channel arcane energies to protect himself. The Spellthane as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity may sacrifice an unused spell slot to grant him damage reduction equal to the level of the slot. This damage reduction lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Spellthanes intelligence modifier (minimum 1). For instance if a Spellthane with a 16 intelligence were to sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot he would gain DR 3/- for 3 rounds.

Mass Spell channel(Su):
At 18th level the Spellthane can direct his offensive arcane abilities to some of his allies. This ability functions the same as the spell channeling ability (but not defensive spell channel) except it requires a standard action and it can be applied to a number of targets within 30 feet of the Spellthane equal to his intelligence modifier (minimum 1). The Spellthane must include himself as one of the targets of this ability.

Spell list

Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Ray of Frost
Disrupt Undead
Touch of Fatigue

Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Mage Armor
Obscuring Mist
True Strike
Burning Hands
Magic Missile
Shocking Grasp
Color Spray
Cause Fear
Ray of Enfeeblement
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Magic Weapon
Reduce Person
Inflict Light Wounds

Protection From Arrows
Resist Energy
Acid Arrow
Blindness Deafness
False Life
Bears Endurance
Bulls Strength
Cats Grace
Foxs Cunning
Inflict Moderate Wounds

Dispell Magic
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Phantom Steed
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Magic Weapon Greater
Inflict Serious Wounds

Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Crushing Despair
Fire Shield
Bestow Curse
Inflict Critical Wounds

Cone of Cold
Waves of Fatigue
Baleful Polymorph
Overland Flight
Heroism Greater

Antimagic Field
Chain Lighting
Acid Fog
Freezing Sphere
Bears Endurance Mass
Bulls Strength Mass
Cats Grace Mass
Foxs Cunning Mass
Flesh to stone
Stone to flesh

So I have stated in other theads that I think there is a problem with a divine spontaneous caster like the oracle, in that the cleric spell list does not have the 'impact' spells that appear on the wiz/sorc list that a sorceror can choose so that he can get good bang for his buck with his limited range of spells. The cleric makes up for this knowing ALL his spells and a host of other abilities.

The oracle plays like a sorceror with a much weaker spell list. So what I was thinking is what if at every odd level from 3 on, the oracle could learn 1 spell as if it was one level lower then it is. So at level 3, an oracle could choose to learn a level 2 spell and cast it as a level 1. At level 5 an oracle could do the same, or learn a level 3 spell and cast it at level 2. This is a little extra book keeping but its not much more then you have to do anyway with a caster. And that way the oracle doesnt have both the slower spell progression of spontaneous casters and the weaker spell list of clerics.


After giving the cavlier oaths a run through I think they need a fair amount of work. I think they need to be standardized. They are too all over the place and vary too much in their power and difficulty to attain.

Oath of chastity can as someone brought up be lost due to combat with the opposite sex, and provides a very specific bonus (save bonus vs charm spells).

Oath of Protection is very difficult to pull off as part of an adventuring party, for a good bonus but seems to be an NPC bodyguard only bonus. PC's just wont get this bonus.

Oath of Loyalty is really easy to achieve as is oath of greed, but both are very specific bonuses as well that will only be useful sometimes.

Oath of vengeance is probably the hands down best as it is a bonus to attack rolls, and is relatively easy to attain. Im on a mission to stop goblin raiders oath of vengeance of goblins, i'll have the bonus half way through the first encounter of the day.

I would like these bonuses and challenges to be standardized in bonus and in attainability, rather then trying a juggling act of balancing how hard they are to attain, how long they last and how good the bonus is. It wont be as good flavorwise but it will do alot for actually tracking and using them in the game.

What does everyone else think?

So a couple members of my group and I did a playtest of the new classes.

We just ran a bunch of encounters with the new classes and 2 standard classes. We ran a bunch of encounters at level 1, 3 and 6

The party was 1 oracle with the bone focus, 1 cavalier of the dragon order, a paladin, and a monk.

First off a question from the guy who ran the oracle, what action is it to conjure armor of bones? It isnt listed, we ruled swift for the moment but it will need to be cleared up I think.

Also, what kind of action is it to take an oath? Is a long speech required (several rounds)? Is a simple statement enough? This matters for thinks like vengeance and justice (if an oath is not already active).

The haunted curse seems a little light on the penalty part compared to say clouded vision. I mean how often does a primary caster have to worry about dropping something? It does however provide amusing role play. But i think the disadvantage as written can only really apply through creative dming, which probably isn't a good way to handle it.

First encounter: level 1 party

4 goblins. This was a pretty easy fight, after all they are goblins. My Cavalier was able to get the Vengeance oath pretty quickly, and did rather well. It was an outdoor encounter, and I was able to ride in on the goblins fast. My horse was able to also take out a gobbo when it got close enough. The oracle took out one with an inflict light wounds (he was definately going for the darker side of the bone focus, thats for sure).

Second Encounter: level 1 party
1 Ogre.

So this fight we decided was indoors, and I was without my mount. Here I expected, and saw the cavaleer get outshone by the paladin, after all single big bads are what they do, but I was able to get in my Dragon Order Bonus at all. What we realized here was the oracle does not make a good primary healer. He cant really afford to take too many cure spells, or risk being impotent in other areas, and of course lacks the healing capacity of things like channel and spontaneously cast cures. I'd say its better then the druid in the capacity, but you will need aditional healing in a typical party.

Third encoutner: level 3 party 2 ogres and 3 goblins.
This was another indoor encounter, and I was again without my mount. I again seemed unable to get my bonus from challenge for order of the dragon since the ogre hit me before i could get in on him. The oracle did ok, but I think the player needed better spell selection, I think you have to take alot of care with oracle spells as without the flexibility of the prepared casters, you have to make sure you get alot of impact from what you pick. More so then with a sorc, because of the difference in the kind of spells.

Fourth encounter: level 6 party, 3 grizzly bears.
Here the cavalier really shown. It was outdoors, I had the mount and I was able to get in a whole bunch of ride by attacks using a lance where the bears (with out reach) couldnt hit be back. With vital strike and power attack i put on some serious hurt, and made it difficult with using my mounts full move for the bears to get me back. It also helped that the paladin wasnt doing as much since he couldnt smit.

Final encounter. young red dragon.

This was our big fight. Once again the oracle proved he wasnt a primary healer. I actually ended up using the cavalier to pour a potion down the paladins throat to get him up instead. Here the cavalier couldnt really use his mount to great effect because the dragon was much more mobile. And the oracle couldnt do alot because his spells were being saved against, or required touch(caster getting close to a dragon is a poor idea most of the time). The paladin and monk did most of the heavy lifting here.

Impressions. I think the mechanic for the order of the dragon needs to be changed. I did not get a single challenge bonus in all 5 encounters, either they hit me, or there was another ally there or what have you. It really becomes pretty frustrating. I also feel that with the mount the cavalier performs pretty well compared to the other classes, but in situations where he cant really use it, he significanlty under performes. The mount in and of itself can be a pretty good combatant, but again its pretty situational, I was thinking maybe next time i might try a small sized cavalier, because a medium mount might not have size issues, but that isnt a great answer. I also think that getting the oath bonuses is really complicated. Often by the time you get it, it really doens't apply anymore and you should probably start on a new one. The protection oath for instance seems like a dont bother for me, unless its an npc protecting a noble or something.

The oracle I love from a role play perspective, but I am underwhelmed from the mechanical angle. I think that there are far less impact spells especially at low levels for the cleric list, where the lack of flexibility and choice really hurts the oracle more then the sorc. I think the class needs a little bit of a push. Perhaps something like the sorc and wizards first level abilities where they have something they can do 3+charisma times per day. I mean even if they take a revelation like fire breath you can do it so infrequently your really left out at low levels. And the class doesnt have the ability of the cleric in that they can usually get in some combat at low levels, or higher levels with buffs, since they probably wont carry the requisite buffs, and have less armor, and lower babs.

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