Module/Adventure: This was an improvised playtest done online between myself (as dm) 4 others that are not part of my normal gaming group. The premise was that the party was infultrating a giant's lair to retrieve a special macguffin. It was based off a series of encounters I pulled from an old campaign I ran years ago.
Party Setup: The party was 11th level, with standard wealth by level for their level in gear. 20 point buy was used. Except for the Magus playtest documents, it was core rules and advanced players guide.
Female Human magus, using a rapier as her primary weapon but was strength based and wearing mithral fullplate (I found the choice interesting and yes the character had heavy armor profficiency as a feat since she only had medium proficiency untill level 13). In terms of her spell book we decided she could have normal spells gained at each level plus 1 spell at each character level for just the cost of scribing it (as if she had encounters a spell book in treasure) and the rest had to come from scrolls bought.
Half Orc Male fighter (sword and board fighter going the two weapon fighting/sheild bash route).
Human Oracle of battle. Had the battle Cry Revalation, and combat healer, and I believe skilled at arms and weapon mastery.
Half Elf Bard - This character was an archer bard with a fair amount of buffing added in.
Initial Impressions: I had a look at the magus' sheet and found the player's spell choices interesting. She had listed the spells prepared for the day(3 uses of chill touch, and a little more utility and battlefield control and offensive spells). But the reason for this became clear soon enough. The character seemed to have a descent AC, and saves, and pretty good hit points (around a hundred if i remember right)
First Encounter:
3 Hill Giants were guarding the entrance to the lair. The party was able to approach without being noticed due to plenty of cover as they approached the entrance. The guards were playing a 'dice' game that involved sizable boulders, so the party decided to try to sneak past them with an invisibility spere. They almost succeeded too, had it not been for a particularly poor role on the part of the fighter.
When they heard the noise of the fighter's clanking armor they pulled a hiden lever that barred the entrance to the lair and a fight ensued. It wasnt long before I realized this party synergized extraordinarily well. The oracle's battle cry and the bard's inspire courage actually stacked for attacks (1 being morale and 1 being competance), and with 3 of the 4 characters able to supply buff spells, they had a pretty easy time with the hill giants. The fighter and the oracle both moved to engage a hill giant each, though the oracle cast a buff on himself first, with the bard staying behind, starting his song and casting haste on the whole party.
The magus started off with spending an arcane pool point to turn her +3 sword into a +5 flamming sword. Moved into range of the nearest giant and cast chill touch. I thought this was an odd move even though the giant failed his save and took 1 strength damage(grumble), but realized that now the magus was essentially holding a +5 flamming chilltouch sword for her next 10 attacks. [the hill giants had already spent their actions throwing rocks at where they thought the noise was coming from]
During the subsequent rounds the party quickly overwhelmed the giants, with the buffs from both the battle cry and the bard song, as well as a well placed glitterdust by the bard. Odly enough the magus chose not to use spell combat (as she didnt want to lose the 'held' charges of chill touch. Though the save wasn't hard for the giant, after a couple rounds he had taken 4 strength damage from chill touch before he was killed.
Second Encounter:
With the guards down, the party proceeded into the lair, no longer making much effort at stealth (too many full plate wearer's in the party). The came upon a chamber where they found what appeared to be a giant priest (Human with the giant template applied and cleric levels) and 2 stone giants(who were sitting on stone benches some way away from the altar the priest was next to) in the middle of a ritual sacrifice of an elf child. With the lack of stealth there wasn't a surprise round, and the magus went first. This was the first use we saw of spell combat and spell pool. Intent on saving the girl, the magus again used an arcane pool point to enhance her weapon to +5 flaming, then used pool spell to cast dimension door which she had not prepared, and went next to the priest and attacked him, hitting him twice and standing between him and the alter the child was on.
The other 3 characters double moved into the room which was crowded with stone benches but were intercepted by the two stone giants.
The cleric bestowed curse on the magus, providing a -4 penalty to attacks saves and skill checks.
On subsequent turns the bard and the fighter primarily fought the stone giants and the oracle attempted (somewhat unsuccessfuly) to get to the magus, still protecting the child though her attacks were not of much use. She ended up using spell combat more to ensure success on her concentration checks then to actually try and hit. But with clever use of what spells she had prepared, she did hold off the giant priest long enough for the oracle to get there and remove the curse. Black tentacles came in handy despite the giants fairly favorable CMD.
Third (Final) Encounter:
The third and final encounter occured when the party found the room where the item they were seeking was kept. This time the bard went some distance ahead (stealthily) and found the room contained a cloud giant (the giant king) and 3 fire giants. This was going to be a tough fight and the party took a few rounds to buff before entering the room.
This time it was actually the fighter that faced the main enemy, the cloud giant (more as a matter of positioning then as a concious tactical choice), and the magus made good use of her spell combat to improvise some protection for her to aid the other party members. The fire giants suddenly were less eager to attack her after she put up a chill fire shield in her first spell combat. And a well placed grease actually caused one of the giants to fall over. The oracle made good use of combat healer as he remained within a 5 ft step of both the magus and fighter for most of the fight.
The bard was knocked unconcious near the end when he decided to take his ranged attacks despite not being able to back away from the giant threatening him. At the end of the fight, most of the party had spent most of what they could. Everyone was low on hitpoints, spells, and the magus had 1 arcane pool point left.
Overall Impressions:
In the third fight I think I saw what the real potential of the magus was. She was well buffed (by both her own and other spells) and made good use of alot of her abilities. Combining attacks and a few control spells made for a potent mix. And the damage the character could put out when hasted and casting damage spells together was considerable. But I think the best use of spell combat was when she was doing things other then damage with the spell. A well placed web, or casting invisibility after her attacks to make hitting back harder.
None of the other characters felt overshadowed, and 2 of them were also caster/combat mixes. And it was usually still the fighter dealing the most damage, except for a few turns where the magus cast big damage spells and hit with both attacks and was buffed to a similar or greater degree then the fighter.
One of the things I noticed about the magus that is different from other fighting/casting mixes (be they base classes or prestige classes) is that the mix is pretty seamless, and even if they dont have a chance to buff before a fight, they arent waiting several rounds before they get into the thick of things. Enhancing your weapon is a swift action (and the magus in this test did that every round). And using spell combat the magus can buff and attack in the same round. Sure the attack is just a 3/4 bab full attack with a 1handed weapon, but its something, as opposed to not getting to do anything offensive the first turn or two.
The 15 minute workday problem seems to have been resolved by the arcane pool. But can we come up with a less then 3 word way to refer to the points? Arcane Pool Point is a bit clumsy to say (minor quibble I know).
Also, there was some confusion about the close range arcana. It says there must be a single target, but how does that work with something like scorching ray? Does it work? Is it more then one touch attack? Can it be used with spell strike? If so how does that work?
Overall I have to say, I liked seeing the class in action. It definately feels different from anything I have seen before. And I look forward to including them in my game and maybe playing one down the line.
Cool and well described. I enjoyed reading this.
Quick question: I'm assuming that when u say the magus Dimension Door'd into the room and then hit the priest twice, you mean on later rounds. The description makes it sound like she did that all at once, which is, of course, not possible given the way Dimension Door works.
What was the ability score breakdown for the Magus? I'm very concerned about MAD with the class. You mention a few times that things failed saves vs. her spells. Did she pump Int? I'm guessing she largely ignored Dex due to having Full Plate (this would have interesting ramifications for playing a character from 1 up, but starting at 11 is a sound choice). Was Strength her secondary or Con or did she balance them?
Cool and well described. I enjoyed reading this.
Quick question: I'm assuming that when u say the magus Dimension Door'd into the room and then hit the priest twice, you mean on later rounds. The description makes it sound like she did that all at once, which is, of course, not possible given the way Dimension Door works.
Actually no, you read my description right. Everyone at the table(myself included) forgot about the no other action until your next turn restriction on Dimension door. I got caught up in the awesome of the moment. My mistake, but I dont think it had a huge impact on the ultimate outcome of the encounter.
What was the ability score breakdown for the Magus? I'm very concerned about MAD with the class. You mention a few times that things failed saves vs. her spells. Did she pump Int? I'm guessing she largely ignored Dex due to having Full Plate (this would have interesting ramifications for playing a character from 1 up, but starting at 11 is a sound choice). Was Strength her secondary or Con or did she balance them?
Stats:
Str: 16 +2 racial +2 magic item (20)Dex: 12 +2 magic item
Con: 12 +2 magic item (i think you can figure out what one of her magic items was now)
Int: 16 +1 at 4 and +1 at 8 +4 magic item.
Wis: 10
Cha: 7
The early implications for the character would be the need for the shield spell far more often then she used it with this higher level character. And possibly slugging it out a little less. She also could have had a 9 wisdom and a 10 con and started with toughness instead of weapon focus (taking it later) and having a 14dex with a chain shirt is respectable for quite some time. Add a shield spell to that and you have yourself a fairly good AC most of the time, untill she can get heavier armor or magic items to up her ac. You can also dump wisdom more then she did as you have a strong will save, and no real other need for wisdom. I think if it was a lower level game you might have seen both wis and cha at 7.
As for failing saves, chill touch was sheer volume, the giant only needed like a 6 or better to save, but making 9 (i think) of them, eventually you'll drop a couple. And grease/web was a well chosen spell, giants dont have great reflex saves and I dont think it's metagaming to assume as much. Mind you her Int is pretty good, so the saves are solid, but they arent as high as a wizard's would be, nor should they be. The point is that they did have an impact on the encounter, and it was done in the midst of fighting. Which is what the magus is all about.
ON your point re: chill touch able to be delivered via weapon attacks
(in this case, the magus forgoed further spells so as not to disrupt ´holding the charge´)
The same tactic works even better with touch spells that DON´T need to be ´held´ like Calcific Touch
(it has a duration, for which each round you can make a touch attack with the spell effect)
Since you´re not holding the charge (which applies only to spells allowing multiple touches but not providing a means to deliver them over multiple rounds, as Calcific Touch does) there´s no reason you can´t cast other spells... Including Chill Touch as far as I can tell, potentially letting you deliver BOTH effects via weapon attacks. Obviously, doing this is rather ´nova´ing´, but it´s an option. (More realistic in non-nova scenarios is being able to use the entire Calcific Touch duration, while getting off combat utility spells during combat)
...One could make the ruling that from the beginning of each round you ARE considered holding the Calcific Touch charge (the 1 charge for that round), so if you Cast anything you would lose the Calicific Touch charge FOR THAT ROUND - But subsequent rounds, you would still gain the Calcific Touch charge, and if you Cast Chill Touch, you would be holding it`s charges as well (which would be lost if you cast anything else).
Hmmmm....this all makes me think that the best way to play a Magus in the end may be to jack up your spell DCs, and load on touch effects that can be used multiple times (and also debuff).
Are there any other good touch spells like Calcific Touch and Chill Touch that work like this?
Also, what happens if you throw Chill Touch into a Spellstoring weapon before a fight? Does this allow you to drop Calcific Touch first round with spell combat, then as soon as you hit you get Chill Touch up and lasting for however many hits you get? That sounds like an awesome way to start a fight.
Also, it should be noted that due to the fact that Calcific Tough is ability damage, it would double on a critical hit, which, if you are delivering via a Keen Scimitar, is pretty nifty. Same goes for Chill Touch if they fail the save.
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One thing I noticed. You mentioned that your magus was keeping her weapon buffed via the arcane pool ability "every round". Not sure if it was a mistake, but the ability only takes a swift action and lasts for a full minute.
Also, glad to see the Magus seemed to work well in this scenario. I'll be playtesting a 12th level Magus soon, and I'm hoping it works similarly, though I'm personally focusing more on adding things like shocking grasp/scorching ray than casting Crowd Control spells (save for Slow and Black Tentacles)
Good point YD... Though I`m not sure why it isn´t on the list, seems right up their alley (obviously, being a playtest the spell list isn´t as large as it will end up as - new unique spells included). If it wasn´t a 4th level spell, Calcific Touch might have been perfect for a Spell Storing Weapon.
Obviously, the Wand Arcana allowing INT mod for DC makes Wand use of off-list spells alot more effective. It might be worthwhile to figure out what other spells could be used like this, on and off the current Magus list. There´s alot of variation in the way Touch Attack (or Ranged Touch) spells can work, but given the Magus´ various ways to use off-list spells very effectively, this is a solid tactic for Maguses to use.
Sadly, Calcific Touch isn't on the Magus list. That means you need to be a level 19 using Greater Pool Spell or have a wand/staff. 21k to get that wand, though it is probably worth it for some Magi.
I'm disappointed in you guys : (
And here I thought we were all just taking for granted that Magi would grab Calcific Touch using their Spell Blending arcana.
Elemental touch is on their list, but depends on interpretation for whether or not it falls into Chill Touch/Calcific Touch territory. Not so much more damage, but the secondary effects can be real nice if you have decent DCs.
Calcific Touch is amazingly powerful because the DEX damage isn´t subject to Saving Throw.
And if you can get it delivered via your high-crit range/multiplier attacks...
But even if your DCs aren´t super-high, the fact you can get them consistently added on top of melee attacks means just OCCASSIONALLY working (or fully working, etc) is still a great combo. Somebody else´s 1st level playtest focused on this, using 0th level Daze to spam via Spell Combat (through they didn´t bother with spellstrike, since if you don´t benefit from crits there´s no reason to not take the free touch attack).
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Sadly, Calcific Touch isn't on the Magus list. That means you need to be a level 19 using Greater Pool Spell or have a wand/staff. 21k to get that wand, though it is probably worth it for some Magi.I'm disappointed in you guys : (
And here I thought we were all just taking for granted that Magi would grab Calcific Touch using their Spell Blending arcana.
Forgot about Spell Blending. Sweet criminy that Arcana could make for some distressing combo's.
I need to start up a wishlist of fun toys for my Magus it seems.
Feeblemind: The increase in DC for Arcane casters makes up for low Magus DCs.
Touch of Idiocy: Maybe, but I doubt it's worth an Arcana.
Waves of Fatigue: Not a bad choice if you have a free Arcana around this level. Especially if your party does not have a traditional arcane caster, this might be the kind of debuffing your party needs.
Enervation: Oh hell yes. No save and pile on a bunch of negative levels. Probably good to combine with the Empower or Maximize Arcana's.
One thing I noticed. You mentioned that your magus was keeping her weapon buffed via the arcane pool ability "every round". Not sure if it was a mistake, but the ability only takes a swift action and lasts for a full minute.
Also, glad to see the Magus seemed to work well in this scenario. I'll be playtesting a 12th level Magus soon, and I'm hoping it works similarly, though I'm personally focusing more on adding things like shocking grasp/scorching ray than casting Crowd Control spells (save for Slow and Black Tentacles)
I think going for damage might be the big trap of the Magus class. I would like to hear how you do in comparison to a damage oriented fighter if you're playing the Magus as a "striker".
For the record, you'd totally be able to grab Calcific Touch at 12. Keep in mind the ability damage doubles if you crit, and you could be using a Keen Rapier. Mmmmm.
You could use Spell Blending earlier as well to nab Heroism and Touch of Gracelessness. Combining ToG with Calcific Touch (and a 15-20 threat range) could Dex-Zero people pretty darn fast. You may want to start hiring gardeners for all of the statues you'll be collecting. (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Transmutation are nice if you're focusing on this route).
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I think going for damage might be the big trap of the Magus class. I would like to hear how you do in comparison to a damage oriented fighter if you're playing the Magus as a "striker".
I've been wondering about this as well. I've almost finished running a level 8 Magus through an arena-type test. I'd thought about running a Fighter, Ranger, or Cleric through the same fights to see how they do. I suspect they'd do better but I don't know. Even if the Fighter does better, it wouldn't have the kind of skills or utility that a Magus has.
One thing I noticed. You mentioned that your magus was keeping her weapon buffed via the arcane pool ability "every round". Not sure if it was a mistake, but the ability only takes a swift action and lasts for a full minute.
Also, glad to see the Magus seemed to work well in this scenario. I'll be playtesting a 12th level Magus soon, and I'm hoping it works similarly, though I'm personally focusing more on adding things like shocking grasp/scorching ray than casting Crowd Control spells (save for Slow and Black Tentacles)
I maybe i didnt word it right, but that was done correctly, its a swift action and lasts a minute (coasting a arcane pool point).
As for your plan, i think it can work, but if you dont include some of the versatile spells i think you are losing out on a big thing the magus can do that others cant. Just seems like doing additional damage all the time is a waste of what spell combat really offers.
Combining ToG with Calcific Touch (and a 15-20 threat range) could Dex-Zero people pretty darn fast. You may want to start hiring gardeners for all of the statues you'll be collecting. (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Transmutation are nice if you're focusing on this route).
That you definitely could...
And notice that a succesful Save doesn´t affect the DEX dmg. from Calcific touch (which is Critable), it only deals with the Slow effect.Spell Focus/GSF are pretty good ways to make up for split stats,
in one spell school that you want to focus on having higher DCs in.
BTW, Is Spellstrike melee-only? Or does it also work with thrown weapons (or bows/xbows)?
Here's a quick buildout for an idea around Dex-Zeroing with a Magus/Eldritch Knight. It's just a quick throw together, so I'm sure there are some issues, but a couple things I like are Spell Perfection with Calcific Touch later on, to always cast it maximized for no cost....and taking Vanish with an earlier spell blending. That's gonna be an awesome one to nab for Magi to use with the full attack then go invis strategy. No point wasting a second level spell on that tactic if you're just gonna pop your invis the next round.
The staggering of Magus with Eldritch Knight to get CT with the 9th level arcana spot is also a point of pride, and something I think we will see in builds that use EK.
In the end, critting with CT up and then getting to free-quicken a spell as well is just cool. 8 Dex damage (maximized with spell perfection), Touch of Gracelessness through Spell Combat (at least another 3 Dex penalty with a roll of 1 and them making save), and using spell critical to cast another spell?? Fun times.
Human Magus 7/Eldritch Knight 2/Magus +2/Eldritch Knight +8/Magus +1
Str – 16 (28) Dex – 12 (18) Con 14(20) Int – 16 (30) Wis – 10 Cha – 8
1: Magus 1 – Arcane Pool, Cantrips, Spell Combat, Feat (Weapon Focus: Rapier), Bonus Feat (Combat Casting), Trait: Magical Knack, Adopted (Warrior of Old)
2: Magus 2 - Spellstrike
3 : Magus 3– Magus Arcana (Spell Shield), Feat (Improved Initiative)
4: Magus 4 – Pool Spell, +1 Int
5: Magus 5 – Bonus Feat (Persistent Spell)
6: Magus 6 – Magus Arcana (Spell Blending: Touch of Gracelessness, Vanish), Feat (Spell Focus: Transmutation)
7: Magus 7 – Knowledge Pool, Medium Armor
8: Eldritch Knight 1– Bonus Feat (Critical Focus), +1 Int
9: Eldritch Knight 2 – Feat (Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation)
10: Magus 8 – Improved Spell Combat
11: Magus 9 – Magus Arcana (Spell Blending: Calcific Touch)
12: Eldritch Knight 3 – Feat (Maximize Spell), +1 Int
13: Eldritch Knight 4
14: Eldritch Knight 5 – Bonus Feat (Quicken Spell)
15: Eldritch Knight 6 – Feat (Spell Perfection: Calcific Touch)
16: Eldritch Knight 7 - +1 Int
17: Eldritch Knight 8
18: Eldritch Knight 9 – Feat (Spell Penetration), Bonus Feat(Critical Feat)
19: Eldritch Knight 10 –Spell Critical
20: Magus 10 – Fighter Training, +1 Str
The magus cannot get the Weapon Focus feat at 1st level due to it having a prerequisite of +1 base attack.
Hi guys, i am glad my post gave you ideas, but lets stay on point. If there isnt more questions or comments about my playtest(or yours), you should probably take the discussion to the discussion section. it would be unfortunate if Jason has to sift through 100 posts to find the ones that are actually responding to the playtest itself (like when someone pointed out i botched dimension door).