Round 2 Rules Questions:


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Figured I might get this one started.

First one i have is, I am looking at the summoner's Eidolons evolution list, and it says that claws secondary attacks in the evolution description. Does that mean that the bipedal eidolon only has secondary attacks to start?

Dark Archive

Kolokotroni wrote:

Figured I might get this one started.

First one i have is, I am looking at the summoner's Eidolons evolution list, and it says that claws secondary attacks in the evolution description. Does that mean that the bipedal eidolon only has secondary attacks to start?

I /think/ that if it is the only attack listed it is considered a primary natural attack instead of a secondary natural attack.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

The claws are primary attacks, not secondary. That is an error. Thanks for the catch, I will make sure it is fixed.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason, does that mean that a bipedal eidolon who morphs the claws into a slam, then gets an extra set of arms with claws, now gets 3 primary attacks?


Question regarding Summoner's SLA's.

Does a Summoner's Summon Monster ability work independently for each Summon Monster level, or is it drawn from a single "pool".

For instance:

Summoner level 3:
Summon Monster I; Cha+3/day
Summon Monster II; Cha+3/day

OR

Summon Monster(I or II); Cha+3/day


Yes. A creature (any creature, not just Eidolons) can have any number of primary attacks in Pathfinder. There's no more "each creature can only have a single primary attack" rule.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Iliyan wrote:

Question regarding Summoner's SLA's.

Does a Summoner's Summon Monster ability work independently for each Summon Monster level, or is it drawn from a single "pool".

For instance:

Summoner level 3:
Summon Monster I; Cha+3/day
Summon Monster II; Cha+3/day

OR

Summon Monster(I or II); Cha+3/day

Just 1 pool of uses...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Dark Archive

The Spell-Like Ability evolution does not specify the caster level in the description. I am assuming it is a caster level equal to the eidolon's hd?

Grand Lodge

Can Augment Summoning also affect monsters summoned through this Spell-Like Ability?


I have a question about the witch class. It states her familiar can add spells from scrolls, does the scroll have to have spells from the witch list or is it any spell arcane or divine?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Does the Eidolon start knowing any languages?

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Frostflame wrote:
I have a question about the witch class. It states her familiar can add spells from scrolls, does the scroll have to have spells from the witch list or is it any spell arcane or divine?

As with adding spells to a wizards spellbook, they must be from the Witch spell list.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Prince That Howls wrote:

Does the Eidolon start knowing any languages?

Knew I forgot something... yes, whatever languages the summoner can speak.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Andrew Betts wrote:
Can Augment Summoning also affect monsters summoned through this Spell-Like Ability?

Yes

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Draeke Raefel wrote:
The Spell-Like Ability evolution does not specify the caster level in the description. I am assuming it is a caster level equal to the eidolon's hd?

Yes

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Hello,
the Eidolon have to spend all evolution points at ervery Level he raise. How can he get 4 Point evolutions?

Gretz
Maniac

Sovereign Court

Obviously you could easily ride a Large quadraped Eidolon, but what about the Biped or Serpentine models??? Ride equipped?

--Vrocking around the Christmas Tree


Maniactoys wrote:

Hello,

the Eidolon have to spend all evolution points at ervery Level he raise. How can he get 4 Point evolutions?

Gretz
Maniac

You can respend.

At level 4, you can spend all of your points for that level, and on different things than what you spent them on the previous level.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Maniactoys wrote:

Hello,

the Eidolon have to spend all evolution points at ervery Level he raise. How can he get 4 Point evolutions?

Gretz
Maniac

At every level, you can respend all of your evolution points. Note that they are not cumulative.. the number at each level is the number that you have to spend total at that level.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Iliyan wrote:

Question regarding Summoner's SLA's.

Does a Summoner's Summon Monster ability work independently for each Summon Monster level, or is it drawn from a single "pool".

For instance:

Summoner level 3:
Summon Monster I; Cha+3/day
Summon Monster II; Cha+3/day

OR

Summon Monster(I or II); Cha+3/day

Just 1 pool of uses...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I believe the ability only works at it's highest level. So at third level the Summoner only has Summon Monster II. (I can't think of any reason you would want to use the lower level spells anyway, with the way Summon Monster spells work.)

Question:

Since ritual magic is new to the rules, does the Eidolon ability count as a spell, spell like ability, something distinctly different?

I don't need an answer now, but clarity would be nice to avoid open ended debates as to wether or not Augment Summoning affects the Eidolon, and other such things.

Dark Archive

Thanks for being so responsive, Mr. Bulmahn.

Unlike the Round 1 pdf, this one does not specify that these classes will be usable with version 2.1 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, just that they use the "newly revised" version. I assume that still means v2.1? If so, any idea when that will be released? If not, there's a typo in the Round 1 pdf. Thanks.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Disenchanter wrote:

Since ritual magic is new to the rules, does the Eidolon ability count as a spell, spell like ability, something distinctly different?

I don't need an answer now, but clarity would be nice to avoid open ended debates as to wether or not Augment Summoning affects the Eidolon, and other such things.

Summoning the eidolon is a supernatural ability... and it is not subject to Augment Summoning.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

YuenglingDragon wrote:

Thanks for being so responsive, Mr. Bulmahn.

Unlike the Round 1 pdf, this one does not specify that these classes will be usable with version 2.1 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, just that they use the "newly revised" version. I assume that still means v2.1? If so, any idea when that will be released? If not, there's a typo in the Round 1 pdf. Thanks.

These classes will be allowed with the new version of the OP handbook.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


The hex, Forced Reincarnation, causes a creature to die and return in a reincarnated form. I wanted to clarify on the rules here:
-1 round later the body will appear nearby, fully formed and ready to go (instead of 1 hour later, as per the spell)
-The 1000gp cost is waived

But does the subject gain 2 negative levels or 2 constitution drain? Does she lose half of her spells or spell slots? The spell reincarnate is written for humanoid characters in mind, but offers some DM suggestion on other non-humanoid types; will there be additional tables to help supplement this? Can the witch use this ability on herself? Can she use it on a subject who has already died? Fluff suggests no, but there is no indication.

Also, how does the feat Improved Familiar interact with the witch's familiar?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Wow - I was pleased with the Summoner and have plans to use one in the assualt on Farshore in my STAP game soon. Reading the Witch gave me even more nice ideas. And a question...

What is the range of the Retribution hex?


Does the Improved Natural Attack feat stack with the Improved Damage evolution for the Eidolon?


dear jason,
i thank you very much for your answers.

i noticed with the eidolon evolutions, that you can add +20 to climb speed, and +20 to swim speed with a effective 3 point evolution, but it takes a 2 point evolution and the addition of legs to increase the speed +10... what stops me from just increasing the climb speed and not the base speed, then saying my creature is climbing everywhere?


For the Eidolon skills, the text shows:

Quote:

Skills: This lists the eidolon’s total skill ranks. An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills.

Eidolons with Intelligence scores above the base value modify these totals as normal (an eidolon receives a number of skill ranks equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier per HD). An eidolon cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice. Eidolon skill ranks are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level.

While the table shows an entirely different number of skill points.

Eg: Level 9 has 32 skill points.

Which should we use?


QOShea wrote:

For the Eidolon skills, the text shows:

Quote:

Skills: This lists the eidolon’s total skill ranks. An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills.

Eidolons with Intelligence scores above the base value modify these totals as normal (an eidolon receives a number of skill ranks equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier per HD). An eidolon cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice. Eidolon skill ranks are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level.

While the table shows an entirely different number of skill points.

Eg: Level 9 has 32 skill points.

Which should we use?

Eidolons have a -2 Intelligence modifier, so technically there's no disagreement. 6+(-2) = 4 per hit die, which is what the table shows. It's not clear if that's the correct interpretation, however, and it definitely could use clarification.


Eric Stipe wrote:

dear jason,

i thank you very much for your answers.

i noticed with the eidolon evolutions, that you can add +20 to climb speed, and +20 to swim speed with a effective 3 point evolution, but it takes a 2 point evolution and the addition of legs to increase the speed +10... what stops me from just increasing the climb speed and not the base speed, then saying my creature is climbing everywhere?

Has to be an angle to climb it.

Though you can have it run along the walls quickly, climb speed generally isnt as useful as land speed.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Zurai wrote:
QOShea wrote:

For the Eidolon skills, the text shows:

Quote:

Skills: This lists the eidolon’s total skill ranks. An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills.

Eidolons with Intelligence scores above the base value modify these totals as normal (an eidolon receives a number of skill ranks equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier per HD). An eidolon cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice. Eidolon skill ranks are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level.

While the table shows an entirely different number of skill points.

Eg: Level 9 has 32 skill points.

Which should we use?

Eidolons have a -2 Intelligence modifier, so technically there's no disagreement. 6+(-2) = 4 per hit die, which is what the table shows. It's not clear if that's the correct interpretation, however, and it definitely could use clarification.

The numbers on the chart assume that the eidolon's Int does not change. If they do, you will need to recalculate as normal.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Eric Stipe wrote:

dear jason,

i thank you very much for your answers.

i noticed with the eidolon evolutions, that you can add +20 to climb speed, and +20 to swim speed with a effective 3 point evolution, but it takes a 2 point evolution and the addition of legs to increase the speed +10... what stops me from just increasing the climb speed and not the base speed, then saying my creature is climbing everywhere?

Because you cannot use your climb speed on horizontal surfaces.. you automatically drop to your base speed.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Prince That Howls wrote:

Does the Eidolon start knowing any languages?

Knew I forgot something... yes, whatever languages the summoner can speak.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Does this mean that the Eidolon can only understand them, or can it in fact speak the languages that the Summoner can?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Regarding the summoner, if you equip an eidolon with items/weapons etc and dismiss/resummon the eidolon what happens to the stuff?

Does it?
a) Fall off the eidolon on the spot where it was dismissed from.
b) Remain on the eidolon awaiting its return from the netherworld from whence it is summoned?

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Nerioth wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Prince That Howls wrote:

Does the Eidolon start knowing any languages?

Knew I forgot something... yes, whatever languages the summoner can speak.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Does this mean that the Eidolon can only understand them, or can it in fact speak the languages that the Summoner can?

Understand and speak.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


The Witch's viper familiar only gives a +2 Bluff bonus while the Wizard's viper familiar gives him a +3. Is this typo or are Wizard vipers just slightly better?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Similarly, does a witch's Raven Familiar have the ability to speak as a wizard's does?

Dark Archive

I am a little curious here as to now that we have the round 2 pdf, will the round 1 pdf be updated with any possible rules changes/clarifications/errata?

also, love these classes. I was a little worried about power creep, but i feel that the oracle/summoner/and witch have little to no power creep as stands (cavalier is still up for debate). Just wanted to say thanks for the great work.

Grand Lodge

DragonBringerX wrote:

I am a little curious here as to now that we have the round 2 pdf, will the round 1 pdf be updated with any possible rules changes/clarifications/errata?

also, love these classes. I was a little worried about power creep, but i feel that the oracle/summoner/and witch have little to no power creep as stands (cavalier is still up for debate). Just wanted to say thanks for the great work.

In a post somewhere Jason said there's a chance that the round one classes may get some updates on the boards, but only the round one classes. There is likely too much work going into the book to keep them all updated. So we all get nice surprises at release.


Jason,
Does the gate ability of the summoner only allow summoning/calling or can it be used for planar traval as well?

Does a witch need to meet the prerequisites for Brew Potion in order to select the cauldron hex?


I asked this question in another topic, but this seems to be the place to get an official answer so...

One of the ways a familiar/witch can learn new spells is having two witches familiars commune with each other. Could a Raven familiar teach a Viper familiar invisibility? I believe the text says that the spell has to be on the witch's spell list, are the familiar bonus spells considered to be on the witch's spell list?


Do Eidolons gain the racial +8 bonus and ability to take 10 on climb/swim checks if they take the appropriate evolutions? The evolutions don't say so, but generally the skill bonuses and take-10 ability are applied to anything that gets a swim speed (through spells for example).

Dark Archive

Zurai wrote:
Do Eidolons gain the racial +8 bonus and ability to take 10 on climb/swim checks if they take the appropriate evolutions? The evolutions don't say so, but generally the skill bonuses and take-10 ability are applied to anything that gets a swim speed (through spells for example).

Damn reply got swallowed up...

There is an evolution under the 1 point evolutions on page 8 called Skilled. It grants a +8 racial bonus to a skill. It can be taken multiple times, granting the bonus to another skill each time. It does not state that it enables the eidolon to take 10 on those skill checks. I, too, am interested to know the answer to that last bit.

Liberty's Edge

The range on several of the witch hexes seems indistinct. Off the top of my head, ward and charm are very unclear. Are they touch, 30ft., sensory, or what?

Edit: Also, retribution and death curse.


Jason,
Does the Summoner loose access to Summon Monster I once he has access to Summon Monster II, likewise for II when he gets III, etc. I know you clarified that the uses are from a communal pool (no Summon Monster I 3 + Cha / day, then the same for Summon Monster II, etc.)
Also, since this is a spell like ability, would it be eligible for the feat Quicken Spell Like Ability (pg. 315, Pathfinder Bestiary) if the caster is 10th level, and uses Summon Monster I (1st level spell, as per pg. 316 Empower SLA / Quicken SLA chart) as the spell like ability (barring the chance he loses Summon Monster I when he gets higher level Summon Monster spells).

Liberty's Edge

Malagfein wrote:

Jason,

Does the Summoner loose access to Summon Monster I once he has access to Summon Monster II, likewise for II when he gets III, etc. I know you clarified that the uses are from a communal pool (no Summon Monster I 3 + Cha / day, then the same for Summon Monster II, etc.)
Also, since this is a spell like ability, would it be eligible for the feat Quicken Spell Like Ability (pg. 315, Pathfinder Bestiary) if the caster is 10th level, and uses Summon Monster I (1st level spell, as per pg. 316 Empower SLA / Quicken SLA chart) as the spell like ability (barring the chance he loses Summon Monster I when he gets higher level Summon Monster spells).

Whether you lose the old ones or not is a non-issue. The later versions let you summon the creatures of the lower ones (and in higher quantity).


A question on Eidolons, if an Eidolon is carrying any gear (weapons, armor etc.) when it is returned to it's home plane (dismissed or otherwise) does the gear go with it, and reappear with it on summoning, or does it fall to the ground?

Edit: i see a similar question has already been asked, but not answered.


Do touch hexes provoke attacks as normal, and if so, can you use the hex and then hold it like a spell?


iZOMBIE wrote:

A question on Eidolons, if an Eidolon is carrying any gear (weapons, armor etc.) when it is returned to it's home plane (dismissed or otherwise) does the gear go with it, and reappear with it on summoning, or does it fall to the ground?

Edit: i see a similar question has already been asked, but not answered.

Yea. I've asked this twice.

*whistles...makes cup of tea*


StabbittyDoom wrote:


Whether you lose the old ones or not is a non-issue. The later versions let you summon the creatures of the lower ones (and in higher quantity).

Actually, it does matter. At 10th level caster level, the maximum level of spell like ability that can be quickened with Quicken Spell Like Ability is 1st level, which would be the Summoner's Summon Monster I ability. Though the Summoner uses a communal pool for the various Summon Monster levels they get, Jason did not specifically say they lose access to previous Summon Monster levels, in fact, his previous post in regards to the uses of Summon Monster per day seem to indicate that the previous Summon Monster levels are not lost, as seen here when he responded to Iliyan.

The point is not the quantity of summon creatures gained, it is whether or not a feat can be applied to the Summoner's Summon Monster I ability.

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