Discussion on the playtest here
I am thinking start simple 2 dire bears for the 3 person party. Big bruisers with simple smash and grab tactics.
So I think that pretty much showed that they both do a ton of damage, only difference there was sally got her full attack in the first round (bear moved to her), otherwise performance was pretty similar.
Sally's mild damage bonus actually mattered though, in that if we pretend that Fred also got his full attack, (rolling his second attack's damage with Sally's second attack roll), he would have gotten the bear down to 7 whereas Sally staggered it with one crit and one hit. I wasn't expecting to see that small damage bonus matter, but here it did.
Oh, SRM made some changes, so Sally has gotten an upgrade. That extra 1000 we didn't spend on Sally compared to Fred becomes a +1 buckler. Now Sally is only 1 lower AC. Also now the damage applies to all creatures. Crikey!
I realized the bears should have probably used Grab. Sally doesn't care at all about the initial grapple due to her one-handed weapon, as long as she isn't pinned, but it does stop Fred from using his falchion.
Wasnt intending on doing anything complicated in the first fight, just a couple bruisers. We can maybe do something with some combat maneuvers in the next fight.
My one concern with sally is that she is ignoring what will almost certainly be a the norm in swashbucklers, being that they are dex based. Any interest in building sally as a swashbuckler you would actually play and giving her an agile weapon? You would lose +1 enhancment on her rapier, but you would also gain AC and such from the higher dex.
I'd also like to see how sally performs as a dex based build without agile weapons or dervish dance (not a given since they are not in the rpg line). Because I think that is going to be the most common situation. I worry that if we balanced the swashbuckler as if it will get its primary stat to damage, and a large portion of them DONT get their primary stat to damage, it will hurt the class in the end.
I'd also like to see how sally performs as a dex based build without agile weapons or dervish dance (not a given since they are not in the rpg line). Because I think that is going to be the most common situation. I worry that if we balanced the swashbuckler as if it will get its primary stat to damage, and a large portion of them DONT get their primary stat to damage, it will hurt the class in the end.
Here's the thing. If the class is buff enough to be as good as a fighter at dealing damage with primary Dex and no agile or dervish, it will be absurdly broken with a Str build or dervish or agile.
Wasnt intending on doing anything complicated in the first fight, just a couple bruisers. We can maybe do something with some combat maneuvers in the next fight.
Oh, I wasn't saying the bears would do a grapple instead of attack. But they actually would have gotten a free attempt to grab both our heroes.
I'd also like to see how sally performs as a dex based build without agile weapons or dervish dance (not a given since they are not in the rpg line). Because I think that is going to be the most common situation. I worry that if we balanced the swashbuckler as if it will get its primary stat to damage, and a large portion of them DONT get their primary stat to damage, it will hurt the class in the end.Here's the thing. If the class is buff enough to be as good as a fighter at dealing damage with primary Dex and no agile or dervish, it will be absurdly broken with a Str build or dervish or agile.
While I agree, the question is, does that matter? Should a non-rpg line option be accounted for when looking at a new class? I am honestly not sure, but its worth considering and I think its at least worth looking at. It would at least add SOME perspective to the discussion on the swashbuckler.
I think I neatly sidestepped the issue with Sally Strengthbuckler because whether your game allows agile or dervish or not, she will always be legal, and if she is strictly better than the fighter at damage, that's bad. I had a few ideas for how to edit swash to take all this into account, and Temeryn also had a good one where the Precise Strike damage replaces Strength bonus (so you can't also replace it with Dex bonus) but can also double on a crit or something similar.
It's certainly true that it's bad if games with agile and dervish find swashbucklers to be astronomically better than melee fighters at nearly everything (as would be the case if they are allowed to work and the class is balanced for low Str, high Dex, not using those two).
But it would also be bad if the class didnt perform well in combat as a dex focused build without dervish dance or agile weapons.
But it would also be bad if the class didnt perform well in combat as a dex focused build without dervish dance or agile weapons.
I'm OK with them being a little worse than a two-handed fighter at pure damage, though, since they do get deeds and more skills. It depends on what we mean by "well".
It's one reason that Temeryn's idea is powerful--it allows us to tinker with exactly how much bonus damage to give the Swashbuckler agnostic of style choice, and dervish or agile can't skyrocket anything.
Worse sure, but it still needs to be better then the crummyness that is the current options (free hand fighter for instance).
Worse sure, but it still needs to be better then the crummyness that is the current options (free hand fighter for instance).
Fully agreed! But right now, with damage added back to all creatures by SRM, Sally is just better at damage than Fred.
Interesting results. It seems ot me they are performing very similarly, with sally having a slight edge, which gets amplified if there are lots of smaller mooks to kill to regain her panache.
Want to make a post in the playtest feedback and then i'll add my comments as well?
So does Sally's higher damage actually matter in a real playtest and not just a theoretical DPR? So far, yes. She staggered a bear that if their positions had been reversed Fred would not have staggered, and Fred failed to drop a halfling in one crit that, had their positions been reversed, Sally would have dropped. Both of them are certainly powerful enough to handle the threats presented, but Sally is just stronger. Also, the one panache from dropping foes means that Sally is pretty much overflowing on panache. She never runs out, even if she spends one every round for the extra damage. This is to her advantage more than my mathematical model considered when they don't crit, such as the very first round versus the brigands.
Want to make a post in the playtest feedback and then i'll add my comments as well?
Sure.
Does/Can swashbuckler take Defender of the Society, or weapon specialization
Does/Can swashbuckler take Defender of the Society, or weapon specialization
Definitely can take fighter-only feats. Traits aren't discussed at all. We don't have them on either character, but if we were to include them, it seems to make sense that counting for feats counts for traits too. Then again, you'd need a Mithral Kikko or like a Comfort Mithral Breastplate to take advantage of DotS with a Swashbuckler and not take an attack penalty.
I'm dipping Warpriest with mine and focusing Str. 1st level sucks and is rough. But I like theat warpriest Cayden Cailean gets weapon focus, and I'm going Dazzaling display. I like the idea of everyone shaking at my awesomness. I will be going platemail. Not dumping dex probably will still go combat reflexes so I can pary/ripost once a round. I will assume yes on defender until they say otherwise since feats are ok. Thanks Rogue
A level 8th level rogue gets 4d6 sneak attack when it can get flanking or catch someone off guard, thats an average of 14 damage some of the time. A level 8 swashbuckler gets +8 damage almost always from precise strike and occassionaly it can get an additional +8 by spending a panache point, where is the damage loss?