Ok, so I am sure many have already brought this up, but this is really frustrating me. I am trying to put together a gunslinger npc to add to my pathfinder game, and I cant. I just dont have the room for all the feats this class needs. The sad thing is, the fighter in it's normal form is more suited to gunfighting (as it stands) then the gunslinger. This is pretty rediculous if you ask me.
To present my example, I decided i want my character to take the gunslinger feat from the campaign setting, not a crazy idea I think. But in doing so it means I have to squeeze out feats this class absolutely needs. Namely, the shooting feats point blank and precise shot, rapid reload/lightning reload, extra grit (you get a pitifully small amount of grit to begin with), quickdraw (why isnt this a built in bonus feat exactly? Theres a class ability that works with quickdraw, why the feat tax to make a gunslinger seem like a gunslinger?). God help you if you want to go two weapon fighting it.
I find I have to leave important stuff out, like weapon spec (the only real benefit the class gets from being a 'fighter alternate') and vital strike for when (most of the time) the character is only firing one shot a round.
At level 8(the character's level) the normal fighter would get 3 more feats, giving me enough room to actually allow weapon focus and the gunslinger feat (for which weapon focus is a prereq). And what do I get for my trading of those 3 feats? Grit points and deeds, of which the most important one will require me to take 2 additional feats to make the class work in the first place (lightning reload and signature deed).
I really dont think i've ever seen this before, where a class was so heavily feat taxed without sufficient bonus feats (or class features) to make up for it.
Ok, so I am sure many have already brought this up, but this is really frustrating me. I am trying to put together a gunslinger npc to add to my pathfinder game, and I cant. I just dont have the room for all the feats this class needs. The sad thing is, the fighter in it's normal form is more suited to gunfighting (as it stands) then the gunslinger. This is pretty rediculous if you ask me.
To present my example, I decided i want my character to take the gunslinger feat from the campaign setting, not a crazy idea I think. But in doing so it means I have to squeeze out feats this class absolutely needs. Namely, the shooting feats point blank and precise shot, rapid reload/lightning reload, extra grit (you get a pitifully small amount of grit to begin with), quickdraw (why isnt this a built in bonus feat exactly? Theres a class ability that works with quickdraw, why the feat tax to make a gunslinger seem like a gunslinger?). God help you if you want to go two weapon fighting it.
I find I have to leave important stuff out, like weapon spec (the only real benefit the class gets from being a 'fighter alternate') and vital strike for when (most of the time) the character is only firing one shot a round.
At level 8(the character's level) the normal fighter would get 3 more feats, giving me enough room to actually allow weapon focus and the gunslinger feat (for which weapon focus is a prereq). And what do I get for my trading of those 3 feats? Grit points and deeds, of which the most important one will require me to take 2 additional feats to make the class work in the first place (lightning reload and signature deed).
I really dont think i've ever seen this before, where a class was so heavily feat taxed without sufficient bonus feats (or class features) to make up for it.
i agree 100%. i made a gunslinger last night for an encounter in tonights game, and i believe if i would have taken fighter he would be a lot more potent. i had to leave a lot of feats out as well in exchange for a few deeds, and i doubt im even gonna use those deeds since they just arent that good imo. that and i had to give him firearms out of the campaign guide to make him viable.
this class needs a major rewrite. right now theres no reason to play this class when you can play a fighter. i believe this class should get feats like rapid reload and weapon focus (firearms) as class abilities. this can be easily done if you make deeds similar to the magus arcana where you can pick one every so many levels. that would take out some deeds at levels where you get multiple deeds but you get those feats instead. that and i believe the weapon training that fighters get is better than what the gunslinger gets, other than the dex to damage.
I think the whole concept makes more since as a fighter archetype. There seems to be a desire at paizo in general to reinvent the wheel lately. Why not allow class features to synergize rather than make everything so completely different that nothing ever stacks and players cant make interesting multi-class concepts. Same frustration with the lack of prestige classes. Why make grit and deeds when you could just have feats or ki?
I understand the desire to stop splat bloat, but pidgeonholeing every new class and feature into it's own progression that doesn't play along with anything else in a meaningful way is bad for the game, not good.
I disagree with the OP: yes it is true that you can build a more monstrous gunslinger with a raw fighter. But you can also build a higher DPR unarmed fighter than a monk. The monk oozes flavor and cool tricks over the unarmed fighter though - and the gunslinger has much cooler mechanics with grit and the like.
You'll find that you can live without point-blank and precise-shot. You don't need extra grit. Quickdraw is really optional too. Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload are pretty handy, but only if you absolutely must make every attack with your guns.
You'll find that you can live without point-blank and precise-shot. You don't need extra grit. Quickdraw is really optional too. Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload are pretty handy, but only if you absolutely must make every attack with your guns.
Oh you can live without those... you just won't live long... at all. That or you'll quit the class before that happens due to how useless you feel. Both are entirely viable possibilities.
Also "cooler mechanics with grit and the like", is pretty far from reality. Average Gunslinger is likely to have 2 grit. You know what you're using those grit for? Making sure your gun doesn't explode. Not much else.
Something needs to change... otherwise just be a fighter archer and call it a day.
That sums up this current Round 1 Playtest of the Gunslinger
I find making it a normal fighter and take the grit feats is good, sorry, but the class is feat starved.
I disagree with the OP: yes it is true that you can build a more monstrous gunslinger with a raw fighter. But you can also build a higher DPR unarmed fighter than a monk. The monk oozes flavor and cool tricks over the unarmed fighter though - and the gunslinger has much cooler mechanics with grit and the like.
You'll find that you can live without point-blank and precise-shot. You don't need extra grit. Quickdraw is really optional too. Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload are pretty handy, but only if you absolutely must make every attack with your guns.
If you want to be able to fight at range (you know with a ranged weapon) then you need point blank and precise, you dont have the grit to keep the touch attacks up. And you dont want to regularly fight in close enough to get the touch ac as you are still making ranged attacks, and provoke attacks of opportunity (unless you can somehow find room for the gunslinger feat).
And without some means of reloading faster you are attacking every other round, for 1d8+dex or 1d12+dex...how is that good enough? I mean thats it, it doesnt get better. Vital strike doesnt make up for this in this least, your only option is to load up on pistols and take quick draw, hence the feat tax, but even then you wont have that many pistols because they cost half as much as a magic weapon for a normal one. So you still need to reload.
Its not about matching a fighter's dpr (though you are supposed to be a 'fighter alternate' so shouldnt you be good at fighting like a fighter?) its about remaining relavant. The deeds you can do with grit dont come close to making up for the damage you lose when compared to an archer. This class just has so many damned restrictions and limitations revolving around firearms that it literally does not work untill level 11, and at level 11 it only works because you have taken two mandatory feats.
Its not about building a gunslinger that is 'monstrous' its about building one that does something at all worthwhile.
Grit is a self-replenishing ability. So you can quite likely use 5 grit points with a max pool of 2 a day
Also "cooler mechanics with grit and the like", is pretty far from reality. Average Gunslinger is likely to have 2 grit. You know what you're using those grit for? Making sure your gun doesn't explode. Not much else.
It really does seem like there's a lot more that needs grit (at least, for the gunslinger to be good/fun/cool) than the gunslinger can reasonably be expected to afford.
I'm surprised "grit pool" doesn't scale at all with level, either. A level 20 gunslinger with 2 grit feels to me like a level 20 barbarian with 4 rounds of rage per day would.
Grit is a self-replenishing ability. So you can quite likely use 5 grit points with a max pool of 2 a day
You haven't read the regaining grit part have you?
There are 3 ways to regain grit.
1. Bring a mob to 0 hp or lower. You get a grit for this... oh by the way, this only works ONE TIME A DAY. I can see it now "Hey guys! I'm low on grit, let me get the killing blow!" Yea no, that's not how this works.
2. Confirming a crit. Lovely, except your chance of critting is EQUAL to your weapon breaking, just lovely.
3. Daring Act, read as : DM decides
Not everyone has a lovable DM who gives stuff like candy. Further the actual "mechanics" of this is that the task needs to require a 50% chance of success. This is worse than Oblivion in scaling because no matter how good your skill may be, you must always push it to maintain that 50% chance of failure.
Also you can not have more maximum grit than your wisdom bonus unless you took extra grit which hoooray! more Feat tax!
Grit is a self-replenishing ability. So you can quite likely use 5 grit points with a max pool of 2 a day
The recharge methods are so rare they are almost negligable. Confirming a crit will happen on less the 5% of attacks, and you are lucky if you are averaging 1 shot per round. How many days see more then 20 rounds of combat? So you wont get your grit back that way very often.
ONCE per day you can get back 1 grit point by reducing a creature to 0 or less hp, but given your damage output, it would be pretty easy to go a whole day without delivering a finishing blow on an enemy if there are (and there must be) other members of your party doing damage. And remember you have to be bellow your max to take advantage of this, so if you get 'lucky' and crit something on your first shot of the day, killing it, you dont get a grit point...
With a 50% or worse chance of success you can try some arbitrarily 'daring' thing at dms discretion to get back a grit point...yea not exactly reliable there either.
So grit isnt very self replenishing at all. You will on the majority of days be stuck with your normal total or maybe 1 additional grit point per day. Extra grit is pretty much a required feat to make the class worth anything.
Grit is a self-replenishing ability. So you can quite likely use 5 grit points with a max pool of 2 a day
Well, sort of:
Okay, you get a point of grit for your first kill. I sure hope you used at least a point of grit before you killed something.
You get grit for crits. Unfortunately, you're likely to spend more grit than that clearing jams -- both essentially scale in likelihood as you get more attacks.
Grit for doing risky things is a neat idea, but it does fall into the category of things that make the GM's life harder -- I can just envision someone running a PFS session and every round the gunslinger's asking "Did that get me grit?" Because probably they're not going to remember without being constantly prodded.
I disagree with the OP: yes it is true that you can build a more monstrous gunslinger with a raw fighter. But you can also build a higher DPR unarmed fighter than a monk. The monk oozes flavor and cool tricks over the unarmed fighter though - and the gunslinger has much cooler mechanics with grit and the like.
You'll find that you can live without point-blank and precise-shot. You don't need extra grit. Quickdraw is really optional too. Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload are pretty handy, but only if you absolutely must make every attack with your guns.
yeah, you get more flavor, but you SUCK!
Grit is a self-replenishing ability. So you can quite likely use 5 grit points with a max pool of 2 a dayWell, sort of:
Okay, you get a point of grit for your first kill. I sure hope you used at least a point of grit before you killed something.
You get grit for crits. Unfortunately, you're likely to spend more grit than that clearing jams -- both essentially scale in likelihood as you get more attacks.
Grit for doing risky things is a neat idea, but it does fall into the category of things that make the GM's life harder -- I can just envision someone running a PFS session and every round the gunslinger's asking "Did that get me grit?" Because probably they're not going to remember without being constantly prodded.
Also as you level it becomes harder to do things that qualify as daring acts because you get better at doing them. Really the gunslinger as is punishes players for being good at things (various deeds that can only be used when you miss by rolling poorly, daring acts).
+1
The Gunslinger is absolutely feat starved.
I disagree with the OP: yes it is true that you can build a more monstrous gunslinger with a raw fighter. But you can also build a higher DPR unarmed fighter than a monk. The monk oozes flavor and cool tricks over the unarmed fighter though - and the gunslinger has much cooler mechanics with grit and the like.
You'll find that you can live without point-blank and precise-shot. You don't need extra grit. Quickdraw is really optional too. Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload are pretty handy, but only if you absolutely must make every attack with your guns.
If you're saying that the gunslinger is the new monk you're making the OP's point for them.
+1
The Gunslinger is absolutely feat starved.
I don't think that it's feat starved so much as it needs to spend so many of them on specific feats in order to be anywhere near useful. Take for instance a sorcerer: it only gets 13 feats from leveling and class features but it works because you don't really need any of them to be useful. A gunslinger, on the other hand, needs a large number of feats just to function.
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As far as I know that's the definition of feat-starved, if making the class work prevents you from customizing the character with feats because you have to spend them all patching your class.I don't think that it's feat starved so much as it needs to spend so many of them on specific feats in order to be anywhere near useful. Take for instance a sorcerer: it only gets 13 feats from leveling and class features but it works because you don't really need any of them to be useful. A gunslinger, on the other hand, needs a large number of feats just to function.+1
The Gunslinger is absolutely feat starved.
From my brief foray into trying to build a 10th level gunslinger I have to agree. After a while I found that my feat choices were not really choices. Probably 90% of all other gunslingers will have the same feats. Just character creation alone put a sour taste in my mouth for the class.
So for giggles and grins I went and made a Gun Mage from Iron Kingdoms and it was much more fun to create. I already was starting to see fun reolplaying options.
I think the Gunslinger is a really cool concept but in execution it has not grabbed me to want to play it.
Now I DO plan on playing a gunslinger at the next Society game I can get into at first level. Just to see how it plays out and contribute some input. But it just does not GRAB me.
Round 2 I expect some serious improvements.
If you're saying that the gunslinger is the new monk you're making the OP's point for them.
Gunslinger IS NOT the new monk.
Monks have utility purposes. While your damage won't be that high, you're capable of doing other combat tricks much such as tripping, grappling, and Stunning Fist. Things that allow others to do something more.
The Gunslinger doesn't get these utilities.
*edit* Don't get me wrong, the gunslinger has a ton of flavor and serious potential. But as is, the slinger is incapable of playing support until 7th level, and then only with the use of grit.