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Heya everyone. I've got a few characters available to play in this. I'm not set on anyone yet, but here's a short list of a few I'm interested in playing. Old Shu (Tien gnome wood wizard 1/ninja 2)
RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way. As opposed to the typical fighter who rarely specializes in more than one weapon and, up until 19th level, has only one other special ability (armor training) over a swashbuckler? Also, more than a few swashbuckler abilities do not require a weapon at all.
RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way.
What is a swashbuckler: An agile warrior who fights with skill and panache. I would add that a swashbuckler is an agile swordsman who fights with panache using light weapons and mobility. Currently the swashbuckler doesn't have enough mobility, and personally, I don't think an elven curved blade should be an option out of the gate with them (it's not a light or 1-handed weapon, but rather a specialized weapon that can benefit from weapon finesse).
Googleshng, we've had some differences of opinion in the past, but I'm right with you now (and I'm starting to swing around to some of your other ideas actually after seeing so much discussion about strength vs dexterity with this class and some of builds that are coming out of it). Actually, I don't really want to make comments on the current situation with the swashbuckler because I feel the new version is already set and I'm hoping it will address most of these issues. Also, everyone keep in mind James was playing a version twice removed from the current playtest, so this next version might not incorporate options that make a charisma favored character work.
That's kind of the point people keep making. Swashbucklers should be dexterous and charismatic, but, currently, the best way to play a Swashbuckler is to dump Charisma, take an Extra Grit feat, and go Strength Prime. Yes, but many of the strength builds aren't making this disclaimer, so I'm just giving my opinion again. :)
I believe dumping Charisma should not be a standard option for a Swashbuckler. In fact, I'd say that a swashbuckler can't have pinache at all unless they have a charisma of 11 or 12 - sort of like a wizard or sorcerer requiring a minimum ability score to cast their spells. For those who wish to play a smart, but ugly, swashbuckler, maybe an archetype would allow pinache to come off intelligence somehow.
Regarding the Swashbuckler vs Magus (or Amiri&Valeros). For a Magus, keep in mind that class does not have a full BAB, nor will it likely be fully optimized for melee with maxed out attack stat. Also, it sounds like that Magus was not being played well. One or two parries and that Magus should have changed tactics - invisibility, fly, stoneskin, or any spell requiring a will save. Againswt Amiri & Valeros an optimized Swashbuckler should stomp them - the Iconics aren't really built to be killers. Amiri uses an oversized weapon and likely power attack, which drops her bonuses, plus I don't think she has weapon focus, even with rage she's probably 5-6 points behind. Valeros isn't that strong and loses -2 with two-weapon fighting, so he's probably about 5-6 points behind on an attack as well. So at the same level an optimized Swashbuckler probably only has to roll a 4-5 or higher to parry. I don't think this will be the case with a monster of an equal CR.
I am undecided on an armor restriction for precise strike. I think precise strike should be limited to its own weapons group, rather than the current wording that opens up pick, short spears, and morningstars. Maybe a slightly expanded version of the light blades group, adding cutlass, saber, or whatnot. As it is, celestial armor is better then a mithril breastplate (until you want to go above a +3 bonus), and does not require a medium armor proficiency.
We're finding holes in the swashbuckler. If the class works better by dipping and putting points into no-trope stats, that is a hole. I believe all straight, undipped classes should have holes. Patching them with a level in another class makes it harder to see real problems. Malkov, I should have explained why I didn't want to see the dwarf pick build. 1. I think we both agree two-handing a pick shouldn't be an option for a swashbuckler. 2. I personally think using dwarf race conceals the poor will save concerns.
I think more than a few of the Swashbuckler's deeds could use some revision in the action required to use them. Immediate and swift actions are ok at first glance, but reduce action-economy for a class that needs more mobility. Recovery - should be accessible as an immediate action, but somehow calculated as free action. To avoid signature deed abuse, allow the bonus and movement rate to increase with level or additional expenditure of pinache. This way you can escape from reach by using more pinache (I think this ability should grow into Dizzying Defense somehow). Menacing Swordplay: should be a free action. Targeted Strike: standard, not full round. Dizzying Defense: free action, maybe just a straight +4 dodge bonus like a monk's ki option. Also offered at lower level (see Recovery).
I mean, I can just grab armor proficiencies right? I cab precise strike my heavy pick wielded in two hands and power attack away. Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. I'm pretty sure wielding a pick in two hands violates the "cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" clause. Personally I think the language should be changed to read "a piercing melee weapon wielded in one hand". With a 12 dex and a 5 charisma, my dwarven "swashbuckler" is a very effective fighter.... it hits like a truck, has all the same panache tricks and the same panache pool as any SB with a charisma less than 14. Its AC will be just fine in full plate... With this build your dwarf is thematically a fighter, not a swashbuckler. Does it work? In combat only. Regarding pinache, you would lose recovery and nimble in heavy armor, and I'd like to suggest, in order to dissuade quick dips in this class, that more pinache abilities (such as Derring-Do and Precise Strike) should require the swashbuckler to be in light or no armor as well. I mean is that okay? Why is it that this is not only a good build, but a build that hands down beats the dexterous swashbuckler in every area except a few skills? Again, in combat only. Also, try jumping that 10 foot gap as a dwarf in heavy armor, or smooth-talking anything with that terrible charisma. If the environment is anything other than a level field that dwarf will have problems.
In a way the Swashbuckler already has an ability to add dexterity to damage, but it's way up at 11th level. Bleeding Wound (Ex): At 11th level, when the swashbuckler hits a living creature with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon attack, as a free action she can spend 1 panache point to have that attack deal extra bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage is equal to the swashbuckler’s Dexterity modifier. Alternatively, the swashbuckler can spend 2 panache points to deal 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed damage (swashbuckler’s choice) instead. Creatures immune to sneak attacks are also immune to these types of bleed damage. With signature deed available at the same level I'm pretty sure that (assuming dex does not get rolled into damage earlier), this will be a popular signature deed (along with pommel swipe and targeted strike). Since this is bleed damage, I'm unsure how a critical affects the damage, but it can increase damage significantly, particularly if the alternative is applied to con bleed. Personally, I think this ability should be allowed at a lower level, perhaps 5th or 7th.
I'm in favor of parrying granting a base bonus to AC vs one attack (I think it should be +4, but without playtesting that bonus could prove too high). Opposed rolls are a pain and can slow down the game when someone's trying to figure out their bonus with all effects, conditions, size penalties, and whatnot going on.
MechE: I'm behind this idea. This seems like a better suggestion then Charisma to all saves. I think they could be combined too. 2nd level, Charisma bonus to saves vs. Poison, Alchohol, and Fear
We're getting a lot of demands for Dex to damage, but they mostly seem to be from a small handful of the same people who are looking at this class strictly in terms of DPR and how they match up to a fully optimized fighter or barbarian. I'd like to voice my dislike for this idea, and I'd like to see if there are others out there that agree. Issues with precise strike aside, if you are against dex to damage, let's hear your voice. No dex to damage.
EvilMinion: I like that idea, though I'd suggest it goes a step further. Monks get improved unarmed strike plus a bonus feat from a small list at 1st level. I believe a Swashbuckler should get weapon finesse at first level plus a small selection of feats that bypass prerequisites (combat expertise, mobility, or whatever). Then at 2nd level they could get that +4 CMD bonus currently tied to swashbuckler finesse. At 6th level (which only has the +2 bravery bonus), I think they should get a second list of feats to choose from (spring attack, improved disarm, whatever). The only problem I see with this is that intelligence becomes a dump stat, but not every swashbuckler needs to be clever (charisma is much more important).
MechE, I think you have illustrated quite perfectly the one thing that has been bothering me about the arguments to let a swashbuckler apply dexterity to damage. This is also the same problem I have with dervish dance, and to a lesser degree agile weapons. I think the swashbuckler should be less about doing damage and more about avoiding it through some kind of bonus to AC, access to certain feats, or pinache deeds that aren't costly or a headache to manage.
The class you are comparing this fighter to is not what the swashbuckler is. The class that exists does less than a fighter does. It does not have any abilities it needs to "pay for" with a lower damage output, with the possible exception of certain deeds (which the fighter can replicate easily with their extra feats), and any time they use those, they do pay for them with reduced damage, because they are spending panache on something other than the damage boost that almost brings them to a fighter's level. The extra skill points aren't even an edge, because they have more demands on their stats. The fighter could easily dump dex, cha, or even con relative to the swashbuckler and make up for the gap with more int. Your opinion of what makes a swashbuckler is apparently different then mine. However, instead of defining your swashbuckler you have broken down the class into stats, abilities, and DPR, without one note of what really makes a swashbuckler and how the class rules should promote that. So what do you think a swashbuckler should be? For me a swashbuckler is the Dread Pirate Roberts.
Ok, so a little more mobility, but it should be a lot more mobility. I like Athaleon's suggestion to increase this. Sir Frog, if you apply that logic to hybrid classes (or any class with the same Hit Dice and Base Attack Progression) then the Paladin and Ranger fail to match up, since neither can match the DPR of a fighter, except when fighting certain enemies. For a Swashbuckler, his favored enemy should the environment, whether physical or social.
I don't think a Swashbuckler should match a Fighter in DPR. In my opinion a SB should do about 25% less damage, because a SB gets more skills and skillpoints, plus a lot more mobility. In a stand up fight on an open field the SB should lose to the Fighter. The SB should get hacked to pieces. On a boat, on rough terrain, or in a banquet hall with chandeliers, stairs, and long drapes, the Fighter should lose to the SB. The Fighter would sink, stumble, or say make a terminal faux pas.
For the most part I like this class. The only two issues I see with it are the lack of firearms and the oddly implemented swashbuckler finesse. Personally, I think both of these issues could be handled by taking out the Swashbuckler finesse ability and changing it to a multiple option Swashbuckling Style (similar to the Ranger Combat Style) that grants access to a limited number of feats. One Swashbuckling Style option could be Weapon Finesse. Another could be Exotic Weapon Proficiency (which could be drawn from a limited list of weapons like firearm, whip, etc.). This option would let those who like swashbucklers gun-free to remain so, but also allow for the possibility of firearms which are a Gunslinger's (and many swashbuckling pirates) iconic weapon. This also covers a few bases for those wanting to play this class in PFS, as they could take Gunsmithing at 1st level and then get access to firearms at 2nd.
First off, thanks to all the developers for putting in the work on these new class hybrids. I like the concept of this class very much and am currently creating one to use in a PFS game with a few other playtesters. In scanning through this thread I have the following comments: Spellcasting Statistic: I feel like Wisdom doesn't represent a Shaman as well as Charisma would, though perhaps a Charisma-based Archtype (or vice-versa) would be a better solution those with this issue further down the road. Spell List: Restricting to Cleric only fills the Oracle side of the hybrid, but leaves a huge gap in the Witch side. I am in favor of a Shaman having either it's own Spell List, or perhaps a choice from Druid, Cleric, or Witch made at 1st level. Spirits: I like this a lot, and don't mind the similar feel to revelations. Hexes: It seems like there is a little confusion about these, specifically what stat they utilize and if a Shaman gets access to the Witch's list of hexes to choose from as well. Personally I'm not enthusiastic about the Wandering Hex ability, which I think just adds to the confusion. I think it might be better to split these into two different abilities - A Shaman's "Hexes" currently listed under a chosen Shaman's Spirit could be called Spirit Powers, while "Wandering Hex" might be drawn from the existing Witch list of Hexes.
I think there was a middle ground here that could have been found. Perhaps they could have changed the massive weapons ability to grant the ability to wield weapons one size larger than normal for the size of the Titan Mauler, but at -4 penalty, then reduced that penalty by 1 every 3 levels. With this a Titan Mauler caps out with a 3d6 greatsword. Maybe 4d6 if he gets enlarged. (I know it's sort of bad form to compare classes, but a ranger with leadblades can do pretty much the same thing through a different route, and without a penalty to hit). Actually, with a large oak club, an enlargement spell, and an oil of shillelagh, I suppose a Titan Mauler could get to 4d6 now. But do barbarians really want to think that hard?
D-Kal, I think the build has potential, but he probably won't really be effective until level 2 (assuming he uses a Rogue Talent for Weapon Finesse). With a 10 strength and no Base Attack Bonus, you'd have a +0 to hit without it, which would be less than 50% chance against a nekkid enemy (most have at least +1 dex bonus). Also, how often do unarmed enemies really show up? Catch Off-guard only lets you treat unarmed foes as flat-footed. You might want to switch the order in which you take Catch Off-guard. Maybe get Weapon Finesse at 1st level, then use a Rogue Talent to take a combat trick at 2nd to get Catch Off-guard. One other thing. Starting with a 20 in a stat can be nice, but only if you really bank on that stat. Rogues usually need more than dexterity (especially in PFS). I'd suggest dropping dexterity to 19, then boosting charisma and intelligence a little. At 4th level you'd get a stat bonus and be back to 20 in dex anyway. An example of stats with a 19 dex: Str 10 Dex 19 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 12 Note: a 13 intelligence opens up combat expertise and a few other feats that might work well with Catch Off-guard, like Improved Disarm ;) Another option: you could do much of the same thing with a Ninja (and use shuriken as improvised melee weapons, get a Ki pool, blah blah blah etc.)
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