Titan Mauler, what can and can't it wield?


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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

RAW no RAI who knows Ask your GM I'd allow it.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Titan Mauler with levels in Alchemist, with two extra arms.

Able to wield larger weapons then?
Possibly using 3 or 4 hands to wield a weapon?

AFAIK, there's only one "ease of use" category beyond 2-hand, and that's Siege, which can't be wielded by a creature.

Silver Crusade

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redward wrote:


AFAIK, there's only one "ease of use" category beyond 2-hand, and that's Siege, which can't be wielded by a creature.

This gap needs an awesome archetype.


Titan Mauler + Gunslinger? Hm...maybe not.


pleas FAQ this :-)

i realy like the way it was discribed by nelson but dont know if my GM wil alow unoficial changes ;-)


Over a year now and 41 requests for FAQ maybe something should happen about this?


Aream wrote:
Over a year now and 41 requests for FAQ maybe something should happen about this?

I don't think fixing underperforming Archetypes is really a priority for Paizo. If it were too good, that would be another story.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Titan Mauler with levels in Alchemist, with two extra arms.

Able to wield larger weapons then?
Possibly using 3 or 4 hands to wield a weapon?

thats just absurd you culd wield 4 kukri's in those 4 hands and do ALOT more damage


Just wanted to hop in here and say thanks for clarifying the intent. Hopefully the official guys decide on some kind of official ruling for it.


Darkflame wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Titan Mauler with levels in Alchemist, with two extra arms.

Able to wield larger weapons then?
Possibly using 3 or 4 hands to wield a weapon?

thats just absurd you culd wield 4 kukri's in those 4 hands and do ALOT more damage

Except you couldn't use all them without Multi-Weapon Fighting which has REALLY terrible penalties.

Plus carrying one big weapon's cooler. Hopefully one day it gets officialy buffed.


Darth Grall wrote:
Darkflame wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Titan Mauler with levels in Alchemist, with two extra arms.

Able to wield larger weapons then?
Possibly using 3 or 4 hands to wield a weapon?

thats just absurd you culd wield 4 kukri's in those 4 hands and do ALOT more damage

Except you couldn't use all them without Multi-Weapon Fighting which has REALLY terrible penalties.

Plus carrying one big weapon's cooler. Hopefully one day it gets officialy buffed.

Not only that, but the alchemist's extra arms explicitly do not grant additional attacks.


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Personally speaking, I just spliced in the powerful frame ability as a custom rage power at 6th level (count as 1 size larger for the purpose of wielding weapons), and a buffed version of this at 12th level (count as 2 sizes larger for the purpose of wielding weapons), replacing the rage powers at those levels for this ability. For reference, here’s how I worded it:

Spoiler:

Powerful Build (Ex): At 6th level, while raging, a titan mauler counts as a creature one size larger than normal for the purpose of using a melee weapon as a weapon of its appropriate category (light, one-handed, or two-handed); this includes using two-handed weapons with the jotungrip ability. She still suffers the penalties for inappropriately-sized weapons based on her actual size, and her space and reach remain those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of abilities and spells that change the subject’s size category, but supersedes (does not stack with) the powerful frame racial trait. This ability replaces the rage power normally gained at 6th level.

Replace the name with Titanic Power and “one size larger” with “two sizes larger” for the 12th level ability.


As far as I can tell, this plays nicely with all the related rules.
  • This doesn't change the standard light-to-1H-to-2H conversion for bigger weapons.
  • It plays nicely with the massive weapons ability. – since she’s getting access to bigger weapons than Huge, those penalty reductions are actually helpful now.
  • It plays nicely with jotungrip, since she counts as a bigger size for the purpose of wielding the weapons.
  • Most importantly, it lets her do what (IMO) she should be able to do.

So here’s the breakdown of how it actually compares.

Spoiler:

Standard Medium Titan Mauler, 6th level
Medium weapons as light, 1H, or 2H as normal, with -0
Medium 2H as 1H, with -2 (not adjusted by the massive weapons ability)
Large light as 1H, with -0
Large 1H as 2H, with -0
Large 2H cannot be used
Huge light as 2H, with -2
Huge 1H or 2H cannot be used
Gargantuan or larger light, 1H, or 2H cannot be used

So as written, she can basically use a greatsword (2d6) 2H with -0 or 1H with -2; or a Large longsword (2d6) 2H with -0; or a Huge shortsword (2d6) 2H with -2.

Modified Medium Titan Mauler, 6th level (counts as Large)
Medium or Large weapons as light, 1H, or 2H as normal, with -0
Large 2H as 1H, with -2 (not further adjusted by the massive weapons ability)
Huge light as 1H, with -2
Huge 1H as 2H, with -2
Huge 2H cannot be used
Gargantuan light as 2H, with -4
Gargantuan 1H or 2H cannot be used
Colossal light, 1H, or 2H cannot be used

So now she can use a Large greatsword (3d6) 2H with -0, or 1H with -2, or go Large longsword (2d6) 1H with -0; or a Huge longsword (3d6) 2H with -2, or a Gargantuan shortsword (3d6) 2H with -4. She’s looking pretty FFVII here.

So then at 12th level, she’d count as Huge for the purpose of wielding things with their proper handed-ness (I suppose that term works as well as anything), and she’d be reducing the inappropriate size penalties by -4 thanks to massive weapons.

Modified Medium Titan Mauler, 12th level (counts as Huge)
Medium, Large, or Huge weapons as light, 1H, or 2H as normal, with -0
Medium, Large, or Huge 2H as 1H, with -2 (not further adjusted by massive weapons)
Gargantuan light as 1H, with -2
Gargantuan 1H as 2H, with -2
Gargantuan 2H cannot be used
Colossal light as 2H, with -4
Colossal 1H or 2H cannot be used

So now she can use a Huge greatsword (4d6) 2H with -0, or 1H with -2, or go Huge longsword (3d6) with -0; or a Gargantuan longsword (4d6) 2H with -2, or a Colossal shortsword (4d6) 2H with -4. She thinks the Buster Sword is a butter knife.

At 18th level, her Gargantuan weapon penalties are gone. This lets her use a Huge longsword or a Gargantuan shortsword (3d6) in 1H at -0, a Huge greatsword (4d6) in 1H at -2, or a Huge greatsword or a Gargantuan longsword (4d6) in 2H at -2, or a Colossal shortsword (4d6) in 2H at -2.

So, yes, it gets silly with titanic rage at 14th level, or with enlarge person and / or the impact weapon enchantment at any point, and can do silly things with the Vital Strike feat chain. IMO, that’s all good – given the static levels of wrong that other martials get, I let this fly. Pretty sure weapon training + fighter feats, or favored enemy + instant enemy, or smite evil in general, all still pull more damage than this archetype.

But hey, that's just my two cents and is straight house rule. Just figured I'd pipe in since it crossed my mind.


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Mordain Thade wrote:
Personally speaking, I just spliced in the powerful frame ability as a custom rage power at 6th level (count as 1 size larger for the purpose of wielding weapons), and a buffed version of this at 12th level (count as 2 sizes larger for the purpose of wielding weapons), replacing the rage powers at those levels for this ability.

It's a fairly elegant solution, with one problem that I can see. With this, you'll likely end up with weapons (especially your main weapon) that can't be used unless you're raging.


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redward wrote:
Mordain Thade wrote:
Personally speaking, I just spliced in the powerful frame ability as a custom rage power at 6th level (count as 1 size larger for the purpose of wielding weapons), and a buffed version of this at 12th level (count as 2 sizes larger for the purpose of wielding weapons), replacing the rage powers at those levels for this ability.
It's a fairly elegant solution, with one problem that I can see. With this, you'll likely end up with weapons (especially your main weapon) that can't be used unless you're raging.

I don't see this as a problem at all - I see it as a flavorful restriction that can be surmounted by a dedicated player.

Plus, throw enough gold at most problems, and they go away. This one is no different (a.k.a. should be packing a backup weapon to use in case rage rounds are depleted). Or they can play it safe and stick to Large weapons (boo on that, IMO!).

Even for Amiri, the iconic barbarian, they've got this line of text:
...She has come to value her oversized sword, and even though she can only truly wield it properly when her blood rage takes her...
and while that can be interpreted as the massive weapons ability at work, I gotta say, that line was the one that made me re-address this archetype the way I did.

Silver Crusade

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Mordain Thade wrote:

Even for Amiri, the iconic barbarian, they've got this line of text:

...She has come to value her oversized sword, and even though she can only truly wield it properly when her blood rage takes her...
and while that can be interpreted as the massive weapons ability at work, I gotta say, that line was the one that made me re-address this archetype the way I did.

Amiri got this line of text because she actually can always wield her weapon at a -2 penalty; and this penalty is offset when she receives the +4 Str from raging.

It was never meant to say "she can only wield her weapon when raging", to the contrary, she may wield oversized weapons right at 1st level.
I could see a rage power to wield incredibly big weapons only when raging, but I guess the most elegant solution would be a power activated like power attack to grant the ability to wield weapons as if they were bigger for all purposes when raging, with all associated benefits and penalties until the beginning of the next round.


Enlarge person and voila you got a Large Greatsword !


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Titan Mauler with levels in Alchemist, with two extra arms.

Able to wield larger weapons then?
Possibly using 3 or 4 hands to wield a weapon?

There's no rules for using additional arms on the same weapon beyond the normal handedness. You'd have to make something up, which would put it into houserule territory.

You should be able to dual wield a couple of two handed weapons, though.

-j


I see that this post from Jason Nelson is marked as answered in the errata, but if it is, I am not seeing it. Anyone have a link they can share?


AinvarG wrote:
I see that this post from Jason Nelson is marked as answered in the errata, but if it is, I am not seeing it. Anyone have a link they can share?

It's probably the change mentioned in The FAQ, which will probably become errata in the next printing.


Grick wrote:
AinvarG wrote:
I see that this post from Jason Nelson is marked as answered in the errata, but if it is, I am not seeing it. Anyone have a link they can share?

It's probably the change mentioned in The FAQ, which will probably become errata in the next printing.

And which only applies to Jotungrip. So the Massive Weapons issue remains unresolved.


redward wrote:
Grick wrote:
AinvarG wrote:
I see that this post from Jason Nelson is marked as answered in the errata, but if it is, I am not seeing it. Anyone have a link they can share?
It's probably the change mentioned in The FAQ, which will probably become errata in the next printing.
And which only applies to Jotungrip. So the Massive Weapons issue remains unresolved.

The FAQ addresses both abilities. (But only one is changed)


Grick wrote:
redward wrote:
Grick wrote:
AinvarG wrote:
I see that this post from Jason Nelson is marked as answered in the errata, but if it is, I am not seeing it. Anyone have a link they can share?
It's probably the change mentioned in The FAQ, which will probably become errata in the next printing.
And which only applies to Jotungrip. So the Massive Weapons issue remains unresolved.

The FAQ addresses both abilities. (But only one is changed)

Sorry, yes. Jotungrip is clarified. Massive Weapons is still a hot mess. And I doubt there will be further changes since they've already addressed the archetype once.


redward wrote:
Sorry, yes. Jotungrip is clarified. Massive Weapons is still a hot mess.

Jotungrip is changed, but both of them are clarified. We know how they work. They just don't work the way many people want them to. (See also: Spring Attack, medium reach weapons, partial charge, etc.)

That's not to say if people throw a big enough fit and cause the Paizo leadership to get involved, that they won't address it like they did with Flurry. (Presumably at the cost of even less developer interaction and input to the community)


Grick wrote:
redward wrote:
Sorry, yes. Jotungrip is clarified. Massive Weapons is still a hot mess.

They just don't work the way many people want them to.

Including the designer of the archetype.

Silver Crusade

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Lune wrote:
Titan Mauler + Gunslinger? Hm...maybe not.

NEVER SAY NEVER.


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Maxximilius wrote:
Lune wrote:
Titan Mauler + Gunslinger? Hm...maybe not.
NEVER SAY NEVER.

I am Ash, and this is my Worldbreaker!

Scarab Sages

Grick wrote:
redward wrote:
Sorry, yes. Jotungrip is clarified. Massive Weapons is still a hot mess.

Jotungrip is changed, but both of them are clarified. We know how they work. They just don't work the way many people want them to. (See also: Spring Attack, medium reach weapons, partial charge, etc.)

That's not to say if people throw a big enough fit and cause the Paizo leadership to get involved, that they won't address it like they did with Flurry. (Presumably at the cost of even less developer interaction and input to the community)

I wish. There is a clear gap between RAI and RAW here, but since Paizo has already FAQed it once, it seems unlikely they'd revisit it.

I'll see if I can get my friends to bribe someone at PaizoCon to make the archetype work the way it is supposed to.

Hell, I'd be happy if it was just a flat +1 size increase for weapons... colossal does seem kind of silly.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Boy, this thing sure gets necro'd a lot.

Scarab Sages

Artemis Moonstar wrote:
At this point I suspected the whole thing with the ranged weapons.. However, I'm also now interested how the rules were intended with the titan mauler.

How the rules were intended and how they are currently implemented are two very different things.

The intention was to allow the Titan Mauler to break size restrictions on weapon usage. The developer has stated this was his intention.

The current ruling is, the Titan Mauler cannot break the size rules.

The best you can manage is taking exotic weapon proficiency and two-handing a large bastard sword without penalty at level 6.


So the Titan Mauler is not worth taking until the Pathfinder Design Team comes up with something better for the Massive Weapons ability. I see the class designer intended for it work like it sounds rather than as it is written. Until it is official, it's a wasted archetype with a cool concept and name. The only reason to take it is to huge oversized two-handed weapons.


or if your DM is willing to take JJ's altered rules


Darkflame wrote:
or if your DM is willing to take JJ's altered rules

Link please? Haven't seen this post.


Claxon wrote:
Darkflame wrote:
or if your DM is willing to take JJ's altered rules
Link please? Haven't seen this post.

It's Jason Nelson's, not James Jacobs' altered ability and it is freakin' awesome.


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Wow this has been necro'd a lot... Glad it did, or I'd never have seen the FAQ ruling. In the mean time....

I've pretty much gotta say I'm very disappointed with Paizo... Or at least whatever team handles the FAQ. Put out an archetype that's far off the mark of it's actual intention, doesn't quite stack up with what it's offering, and in effect becomes more or less a waste of space.

Would it seriously have broken, or at least unbalanced, the game if Massive Weapons worked the way it was originally intended? judging from all the number crunching I've seen on it, it definitely seems like it's considerably less than what others can throw around at equivalent levels.

Sovereign Court

I think there was a middle ground here that could have been found.

Perhaps they could have changed the massive weapons ability to grant the ability to wield weapons one size larger than normal for the size of the Titan Mauler, but at -4 penalty, then reduced that penalty by 1 every 3 levels.

With this a Titan Mauler caps out with a 3d6 greatsword. Maybe 4d6 if he gets enlarged. (I know it's sort of bad form to compare classes, but a ranger with leadblades can do pretty much the same thing through a different route, and without a penalty to hit).

Actually, with a large oak club, an enlargement spell, and an oil of shillelagh, I suppose a Titan Mauler could get to 4d6 now. But do barbarians really want to think that hard?


yeah the only problem is a large greatsword weighs 64lb there is no way anny medium sized creature can wield that as a sword maybe as a hammer but not as a sword

thats only 1 size up consider it to be huge 512lb thats just absurd you probably wouldnt be able to drag it let alone wield it


and then again damage dice on the swords are hardly the largest contrebution to damage.

a lvl 10 magus can easily do 11d6 in a single round considering 15-20 crit range

a barbarrian can add 20 damage to anny attack with ease

2 handed 18str +4 rage +2 belt = 24= +7 modefier + powerattack = at lvl 6 = 16 bonus damage 17 if he has a +1 weapon

not taking in acount other bonuses so what is 2d6 compared to 17 bonus damage


I needed an NPC who could wield in two hands the weapon designed for his Large form so I just house-ruled it like this for just that NPC and prayed no one ever again took the archetype. Ultimate Combat is great but it can give me serious headaches sometimes.

Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. At 6th and 10th levels, the penalty for using Jotungrip decreases by 1. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. At 3rd level, she may wield two-handed melee or thrown weapons sized for creatures one Size category larger than herself as if she were that Size category, with a -2 penalty on attack rolls. This ability cannot be used in conjuction with Jotungrip. At 9th and 15th levels this penalty decreases by 1. At 18th level she may apply Jotungrip to weapons one Size category larger than herself as if she were that Size category. This ability replaces trap sense.

Don't know if this helps anyone else as a hotfix or not.


nah i just abandoned it as using anything larger as a large bastard sword is pritty lame! did you see the iconic barbarrian with her meat cleaver its f&~@ing huge and she cant even only wield it decently when raging


Just doing a bit of Necro, would the racial trait Powerful Build stack with Massive Weapons?


Kyle '88 wrote:
Just doing a bit of Necro, would the racial trait Powerful Build stack with Massive Weapons?

Are you talking about the Half-Giant Powerful Build trait? If so, it wouldn't stack because it eliminates the penalties altogether; not just the penalty to attack but also the penalty of size step-up. So a Medium Half-Giant can wield a Large Greatsword as a 2-h weapon exactly the same as he'd wield a Medium Greatsword; with no penalty to attack and as a 2-h weapon. However, it only applies to Large weapons so a Huge Longsword is still unwieldable; you'd still need a Huge Dagger or other light weapon and it'd still take a -4 base penalty for 2 size categories different, which you'd need 4 tiers of Massive Weapons to cancel out.


Yeah I was talking about the Half-Giant trait. I thought it would be counted as a Large creature using a Huge weapon; only a one-step set of penaltys.


If you read further, it goes on to state that, regarding oversized weapons, you can "wield Large weapons without penalty". That's analogous to the abilities of the Redcap and the Tiefling alternate body feature that allow them to "wield Medium weapons without penalty" and "wield Large weapons without penalty" respectively (Redcaps are Small Fey that come with a Large Scythe wielded with no size penalty). If it had said it allows you to "wield weapons as if they were one size smaller" that would be a different story.

The Exchange

I know I'm a bit late but recently was looking at the titan mauler and the jotungrip says you wield a 2h weapon in 1h and is treated as a 1 h weapon so surely you could wield a 2 h weapon 1 size larger but with a -4 not -2. Does anyone else agree or am I just mental.


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Sepharoth wrote:

I know I'm a bit late but recently was looking at the titan mauler and the jotungrip says you wield a 2h weapon in 1h and is treated as a 1 h weapon so surely you could wield a 2 h weapon 1 size larger but with a -4 not -2. Does anyone else agree or am I just mental.

Jotungrip only applies to weapons properly sized for you. So, for a Medium character, it applies to their Medium Greatsword, allowing them to wield it as if it were a 1-h weapon, but it doesn't apply to a Large Greatsword because that isn't properly sized for them.

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