Those of you who insist on realism in your games, are you going to let any human who gets to a 125 ft land speed with the Run feat run on water?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Because moving 625 ft in 6 seconds is actually fast enough to allow something that is of adult human weight run across the surface of water without sinking.

Fun fact, it wouldn’t have to be that high for halflings since they only weigh as much as a human child, though I don’t know the minimum speed they’d have to go.

And if you’re wondering why I’m bringing this up, it’s actually not too difficult to get that high of a land speed in Pathfinder.

EDIT: By “realism”, I meant in regard to real world physics.


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Without magical aid, the surface of water should be ruled as Difficult terrain; it gives when you try to push off of it with your feet. I’d be fine with it at 250 ft base speed. Edit: looks like you can’t run across difiifcult terrain, so it would need to be 625 foot base speed (with every turn a double move action).


Lelomenia wrote:
Without magical aid, the surface of water should be ruled as Difficult terrain; it gives when you try to push off of it with your feet. I’d be fine with it at 250 ft base speed. Edit: looks like you can’t run across difiifcult terrain, so it would need to be 625 foot base speed (with every turn a double move action).

None of that is true. You can very much run across water. Science literally says it is possible. You just have to be 3 times as fast as Usain Bolt. So maybe not humanely possible irl, but Pathfinder makes you superhuman pretty much by level 2, so that doesn’t matter.

It would be like trying to run on the beach at worst with the give. And last I checked, that isn’t difficult terrain either.


Yes, I would. Seems fair to me.


I usually do not insist on realism in Pathfinder - there is no momentum, I'd have to start here and it would mean rehauling the system. To answer your question, yes, I would have running on water happen in the situation you describe.

Make sure to wear goggles^^

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
Without magical aid, the surface of water should be ruled as Difficult terrain; it gives when you try to push off of it with your feet. I’d be fine with it at 250 ft base speed. Edit: looks like you can’t run across difiifcult terrain, so it would need to be 625 foot base speed (with every turn a double move action).

None of that is true. You can very much run across water. Science literally says it is possible. You just have to be 3 times as fast as Usain Bolt. So maybe not humanely possible irl, but Pathfinder makes you superhuman pretty much by level 2, so that doesn’t matter.

It would be like trying to run on the beach at worst with the give. And last I checked, that isn’t difficult terrain either.

All of that is true.

Quote:


Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles,
and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table 7–7
for details). When movement is hampered, each square
moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively
reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

...

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see
where you’re going.
...

Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy
undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers
movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2
squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult
terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can’t run or charge
across difficult terrain.

Maybe you want to rule that the surface of the water isn't unstable footing, but you are playing the "realism" card, and that is not realistic.


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I like how when water is solid it's difficult terrain but somehow as a liquid oh no it's not hard at all.


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Considering how much more effort you'd have to put in to get a base speed of 125' than to gain the ability to cast water walk - which doesn't have the limitation of sinking if you stop running - why not? A bit of realistic extrapolation and the Rule of Cool agree here, and give a minor perk to the character who spent an incredible amount of character resources on speed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would imagine that if I were someone who 'insisted' on realism, I wouldn't allow 125' land speed.


Dave Justus wrote:

I would imagine that if I were someone who 'insisted' on realism, I wouldn't allow 125' land speed.

125' Speed is the equivalent of a 12.5 mph walking speed, so, yeah.


Any 6th level ninja can do this at any speed, but only for a full round at a time.

At 10th level, a ninja can walk on air.

/cevah


While I wouldn't call water difficult terrain I would say it hampers movement because your feet sink in. Thus I would require the 250' base speed.

Note, also, that that's when you're not carrying anything. I would be inclined to require a speed increase proportionate to your load as a % of body weight.


Lots of math is off here. A speed of 125 is 125 feet in 6 seconds, or just over 20 feet per second. And 20 feet per second is just under 14 miles per hour. (mph to fps conversion is 1.5)

You need to move a lot faster than 14 miles per hour for the surface tension of water to hold up under the weight to surface area ratio of a human foot.


A speed of 125, taking the run action with the run feat is 625 feet per round, or 104 fps, 74mph by your conversion. I have no idea of the speed necessary for a human to run on water, but basilisk lizards manage it at 15mph (they are quite a bit smaller than me though).


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Well, NOW I will


thorin001 wrote:

Lots of math is off here. A speed of 125 is 125 feet in 6 seconds, or just over 20 feet per second. And 20 feet per second is just under 14 miles per hour. (mph to fps conversion is 1.5)

You need to move a lot faster than 14 miles per hour for the surface tension of water to hold up under the weight to surface area ratio of a human foot.

My conversion is based off of the overland speed from the Core Rulebook. Base speed is used for in-combat movement, where you will rarely be just "walking," while overland speed constitutes long enough travel where you'd be rarely jogging, hustling, or running.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
thorin001 wrote:
Lots of math is off here. A speed of 125 is 125 feet in 6 seconds, or just over 20 feet per second. And 20 feet per second is just under 14 miles per hour. (mph to fps conversion is 1.5)

1 hour is 3,600 seconds or 600 turns

125*600=75,000 feet = 25,000 yards = 42.6 miles

but the speed the OP cited is 625 feet/turn, i.e. 375,000 feet/hour, or slightly more than 71 mph.

Wikipedia wrote:
Barefoot skiing is water skiing behind a motorboat without the use of water skis, commonly referred to as "barefooting". Barefooting requires the skier to travel at higher speeds than conventional water skiing (30-45mph/50-70kmh). The necessary speed required to keep the skier upright varies by the weight of the barefooter and can be approximated by the following formula: (W / 10) + 20, where W is the skier's weight in pounds and the result is in miles per hour. It is an act performed in show skiing, and on its own.

In pathfinder average weight for a human male is 175 pounds, so, in theory, a naked human "only" need a speed of 27.5 mph. 242 ft/turn.


Diego Rossi wrote:


Wikipedia wrote:
Barefoot skiing is water skiing behind a motorboat without the use of water skis, commonly referred to as "barefooting". Barefooting requires the skier to travel at higher speeds than conventional water skiing (30-45mph/50-70kmh). The necessary speed required to keep the skier upright varies by the weight of the barefooter and can be approximated by the following formula: (W / 10) + 20, where W is the skier's weight in pounds and the result is in miles per hour. It is an act performed in show skiing, and on its own.

Yes, but we can also agree that skiing is not the same as walking/running. It is one thing to just maintain an angle or plane to counteract the downward drag of water, especially when your momentum and propulsion are being supplied externally, than it is to be 'running' where you must constantly be pressing into and against the tension of the water's surface enough to propel yourself but not enough that you just press right into it like postholing through deep snow.

It's like the difference between the speed and effort for a rock to skip across water as opposed to if it rolled into the water and tried to roll across the surface at the same speed.


The thing is, if your feet are coming down hard enough (which they'd have to to be running that fast) water wont have "give" At a certain speed there's no functional difference between water and concrete.


Ryan Freire wrote:
The thing is, if your feet are coming down hard enough (which they'd have to to be running that fast) water wont have "give" At a certain speed there's no functional difference between water and concrete.

Yes, at a 'certain speed', but that speed is not going to be the same one needed to skip, glide, or ski over it. Which was the basis of the reply on the speed needed to barefoot water-ski in correlation to the 'certain speed' which we are not necessarily certain of to run across water (as a humanoid creature, presumably).


Your feet have to hit the water at 67mph

https://www.outsideonline.com/1783941/could-humans-run-water


With a proper acrobatics check.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ryan Freire wrote:

Your feet have to hit the water at 67mph

https://www.outsideonline.com/1783941/could-humans-run-water

Thanks for linking a clear resource.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:

Your feet have to hit the water at 67mph

https://www.outsideonline.com/1783941/could-humans-run-water

Thanks for linking a clear resource.

I literally did that in the op. Usain Bolt can move 10.4 meters per second. To run on water, a human has to move triple that speed, which is 31.2 meters per second. Now that isn’t exactly useful info for a game that uses feet instead of meters, but luckily, you can literally google any site that will convert it, or download an app to do so for mobile devices.

31.2 meters/second is approximately 102.3622 feet/second. A round is 6 seconds. So you need to move at least 614.1732 feet/round to run on water. The run feat makes a run action multiply your base speed by 5. So you need to have at least a 122.83464 ft land speed to run on water. Since Pathfinder only deals with movement in multiples of 5 ft, we must round that up to 125 ft land speed.

Not that hard to do, at all.


I insist on realism to a point in my games. If it exists in the real world, I do my best to make it function like the real world does. Falling off a cliff is a serious problem, trying to swim in full plate is impossible, a stab wound from a sword will bleed, flapping your arms super fast won't make you fly, and so on.

But games aren't the real world, and in fantasy worlds, we have access to MAGIC that makes the impossible not only possible, but shockingly easy. So while I will almost always rule that Sir Paladin trying to swim across the moat in plate armor is going to sink to the bottom and drown, the same Sir Paladin with MAGIC plate armor that lets him run across water I will happily allow to do just that. If you want absolute realism, then join a historical reenactment group. If you want no realism what so ever, just play make believe with no rules at all.

To me, most of the fun of having access to leveling up, feats, and MAGIC is making the impossible suddenly becoming possible. The realism I try to bring to the game makes being able to do superhuman acts all the sweeter because you had to work hard to gain that kind of power. Maybe that's not the kind of fun some people like, and that's okay, but it is the kind of game I both enjoy playing and running.

At the end of the day, arguing about realism is as ridiculous as arguing about which edition is "best".

Oh, and to answer original question, yes I would allow a human who gets that kind of speed to run on water. Because the only way someone could move that fast is MAGIC.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

"It doesn't have to be realistic, it just needs to be consistent."


MidsouthGuy wrote:
Oh, and to answer original question, yes I would allow a human who gets that kind of speed to run on water. Because the only way someone could move that fast is MAGIC.

Or as we put in it Pathfinder terms: Stacking mundane modifiers. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:

Your feet have to hit the water at 67mph

https://www.outsideonline.com/1783941/could-humans-run-water

Thanks for linking a clear resource.

I literally did that in the op. Usain Bolt can move 10.4 meters per second. To run on water, a human has to move triple that speed, which is 31.2 meters per second. Now that isn’t exactly useful info for a game that uses feet instead of meters, but luckily, you can literally google any site that will convert it, or download an app to do so for mobile devices.

31.2 meters/second is approximately 102.3622 feet/second. A round is 6 seconds. So you need to move at least 614.1732 feet/round to run on water. The run feat makes a run action multiply your base speed by 5. So you need to have at least a 122.83464 ft land speed to run on water. Since Pathfinder only deals with movement in multiples of 5 ft, we must round that up to 125 ft land speed.

Not that hard to do, at all.

No, you linked a short film of a guy trying to run on water and a generic comment. That link has a reference to a scientific paper and actual numbers.

Maybe you linked the wrong reference, check it.

CRB wrote:

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see

where you’re going.

Water is difficult terrain. If you read the piece that Ryan Freire linked, it explains that creatures running on water "slap their feet against the water hard enough to create a small air pocket". Hardly the act of walking on normal terrain.

So the guy trying to run on water need a speed of 625' round when walking or using a double move, or an ability to run on difficult terrain.

If he has tose he can walk/run on water.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
I literally did that in the op.

To expand upon the "no, you didn't", the outsideonline.com link points out the actual physics of the situation: downward force required. Horizontal initial speed isn't useful because a runner has to maintain their motion. Running on water won't produce anywhere near the same resistance that solid ground would, preventing such a runner from maintaining their horizontal velocity. The downward "speed" referenced involves average foot width, and is about pressing on the water to stay above it.

Think of it this way... your material is about a rock, skipping. Notice that a rock doesn't keep going. It skips a few times, then sinks. The other linked article is about actually staying above the water's surface while perched on tiny little feet with very little area of contact.


Anguish wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
I literally did that in the op.
Think of it this way... your material is about a rock, skipping. Notice that a rock doesn't keep going. It skips a few times, then sinks. The other linked article is about actually staying above the water's surface while perched on tiny little feet with very little area of contact.

That is not at all what my link is about. It is literally about running, not skipping, on water. The video is just there for aesthetics.

As for the other guy, it is a fact that you can run on water. You just have to move fast enough for it. A single move is not running. A double move is not running. Only running is running, ergo water cannot be difficult terrain.


MidsouthGuy wrote:
trying to swim in full plate is impossible

Pff, that's a mere -6 to your Swim check. The average 1st level fighter with one rank in Swim can take 10 in calm water while wearing full plate and have no problems.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Anguish wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
I literally did that in the op.
Think of it this way... your material is about a rock, skipping. Notice that a rock doesn't keep going. It skips a few times, then sinks. The other linked article is about actually staying above the water's surface while perched on tiny little feet with very little area of contact.

That is not at all what my link is about. It is literally about running, not skipping, on water. The video is just there for aesthetics.

As for the other guy, it is a fact that you can run on water. You just have to move fast enough for it. A single move is not running. A double move is not running. Only running is running, ergo water cannot be difficult terrain.

No.

CRB wrote:

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

Ergo, you can not run on water. Because running is running and you can't run on difficult terrain and water is difficult terrain ergo you can never run on water.

You just explained your own counter argument. Mazel.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
As for the other guy, it is a fact that you can run on water. You just have to move fast enough for it. A single move is not running. A double move is not running. Only running is running, ergo water cannot be difficult terrain.

"My argument is about running, so you can run"? That isn't an argument, that is circular logic. First, you need to demonstrate that the rule allows you to run on water, then you can go forward with your argument.


Re: difficult terrain:
Dragon Style might help.


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"You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going."

Oh pure nonsense ... if you're doing 'realism'. I've seen plenty of horror movies where the latest about to be victim has gone shooting off across the room in a terrified run. Light levels clearly do not prevent your from running, the rules prevent you from Running.

Please turn on your sarcasm meters.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kayerloth wrote:

"You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going."

Oh pure nonsense ... if you're doing 'realism'. I've seen plenty of horror movies where the latest about to be victim has gone shooting off across the room in a terrified run. Light levels clearly do not prevent your from running, the rules prevent you from Running.

Please turn on your sarcasm meters.

First, we are speaking of what can be done in the game, so yes, what matter is what the rules allow you to do.

Second, horror movies as an example of what can be done? LOL.
Are you aware that those "dark" rooms in movies aren't "dark" at all? There is enough light to shoot a film, and that means that the level of illumination in the room is, in game terms, at least dim light.
In real life, you can run in a dark building, but the chances to trip on something or finding a wall with your face is extremely high.
In game the light level below dim light is darkness, as in pitch-black, where "creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded". Try running indoor at night with all the windows covered by drawn curtains and see how it ends.
Actually, more probably, you will feel how it hurt, as you will not see anything.


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Here's a GM razor.

By the time you get up to that speed, you've had plenty of opportunity to get something that lets you run in difficult terrain. Its an obstacle thats overcomeable and therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

By the time you get up to that speed, casters can cast fly or water walk, or if you're an oracle a single revelation at 1st level will let you walk across water (several mysteries have one that starts you at floating a few inches above the surface, leading to levitate leading to fly). The feat and level investment of "run across water because fast" is so high that there is no harm to your game to allow it. Its less versatile than the other options that other people had far earlier, and requires more of an investment, so allowing it just to let the player have something cool is the smart play for any gm hoping their players have fun during a campaign.


Just remember you stop at the end of every round, so if you end your move over water, you sink. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ryan Freire wrote:

Here's a GM razor.

By the time you get up to that speed, you've had plenty of opportunity to get something that lets you run in difficult terrain. Its an obstacle thats overcomeable and therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

By the time you get up to that speed, casters can cast fly or water walk, or if you're an oracle a single revelation at 1st level will let you walk across water (several mysteries have one that starts you at floating a few inches above the surface, leading to levitate leading to fly). The feat and level investment of "run across water because fast" is so high that there is no harm to your game to allow it. Its less versatile than the other options that other people had far earlier, and requires more of an investment, so allowing it just to let the player have something cool is the smart play for any gm hoping their players have fun during a campaign.

I don't see "it can be overcome spending even more resources" as irrelevant. I see it as an added problem that can be resolved, but the opportunity cost for reaching the needed speed is high and adding even more costs make it higher. At some point, you would ask "why I should do that when there are simpler solutions?"


No amount of get the ability to run on water without magic is going to fall under the cost of boots of water walking so the minute you're talking about doing it, you're committing to doing so no matter what. The whole exercise is a rhetorical and gm style discussion, not really a mechanical one about the most efficient way to X.


I would allow it on a calm surface. At the speeds being discussed the water becomes an unyielding surface. I don't see how a smooth unyielding surface can be considered difficult terrain. If there were large waves then it would still be difficult terrain.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Hugo Rune wrote:
I would allow it on a calm surface. At the speeds being discussed the water becomes an unyielding surface. I don't see how a smooth unyielding surface can be considered difficult terrain. If there were large waves then it would still be difficult terrain.

Basilisk lizard running on water

I don't see creating a deep concavity on the water surface as running on an "unyielding surface".


I'd only allow it if the PC attempting to run on water was Naruto-running.

Shadow Lodge

In the world of pathfinder, it is impossible for a person to die from falling off the roof of a single story building. Your average human could leap off a 20 foot bride onto stone and only suffer minor injuries which they would recover from in a week or two. Real world physics have never applied.

Walking on water is a separate ability that has nothing to do with movement speed, you can get it from various sources.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Hugo Rune wrote:
I would allow it on a calm surface. At the speeds being discussed the water becomes an unyielding surface. I don't see how a smooth unyielding surface can be considered difficult terrain. If there were large waves then it would still be difficult terrain.

Basilisk lizard running on water

I don't see creating a deep concavity on the water surface as running on an "unyielding surface".

Do you actually believe that posting a video of a creature running on water supports your argument that you can't run on water?


Someone forgot to flip the switch on their sarcasm meter.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Hugo Rune wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Hugo Rune wrote:
I would allow it on a calm surface. At the speeds being discussed the water becomes an unyielding surface. I don't see how a smooth unyielding surface can be considered difficult terrain. If there were large waves then it would still be difficult terrain.

Basilisk lizard running on water

I don't see creating a deep concavity on the water surface as running on an "unyielding surface".

Do you actually believe that posting a video of a creature running on water supports your argument that you can't run on water?

No, it supports my argument that, if you run on water thanks to your speed, the surface of the water is difficult terrain. Look what happens when the lizard hit the water.

As I already said a few times, if you can reach a speed of 625' on difficult terrain, i.e. without running, you can walk on water.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Hugo Rune wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Hugo Rune wrote:
I would allow it on a calm surface. At the speeds being discussed the water becomes an unyielding surface. I don't see how a smooth unyielding surface can be considered difficult terrain. If there were large waves then it would still be difficult terrain.

Basilisk lizard running on water

I don't see creating a deep concavity on the water surface as running on an "unyielding surface".

Do you actually believe that posting a video of a creature running on water supports your argument that you can't run on water?

No, it supports my argument that, if you run on water thanks to your speed, the surface of the water is difficult terrain. Look what happens when the lizard hit the water.

As I already said a few times, if you can reach a speed of 625' on difficult terrain, i.e. without running, you can walk on water.

Now I'm confused, are you saying that you can run on calm water or not? Also, following your line of argument that the distortion caused by the impact of running feet creates difficult terrain leads to the conclusion that horse race courses and other sports fields are difficult terrain due to the divots kicked up by the runners. The same would go for sandy beaches, where the runner leaves sandy foot prints

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Look the full video. Do you think that a hole that reaches your knee is the same thing that a divot made by a horse running? Especially when you the hole is made when you put down your feet, not when you push to move forward?

The lizard feet even have a form that pushes laterally to stabilize its movement. Something that human feet don't have.


I think you need to to look up 'newtonian fluids'. It will help you understand the physics involved. In essesnce there is a linear relationship between the amount of resistance offered by the fluid versus the force applied to it. So according to ine source, a 75kg human with size 9 feet would be impacting approximately 3.5 litres of fluid with every step whilst traveling at 80 km/h.i.e. not knee deep. You may also find videos of people walking on custard informative. Search for Braniac walking on custard. The velocity required is far lower, being non-newtonian but otherwise the effect would be the same.

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