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Hardcover for the Dragon Empires. That way we can flesh out the continent a little better.

Guide to Taldor.

Guide to Qadira

Guide to Brevoy.

These four. Brevoy for a kingmaker/game of thrones expansion. Taldor and Qadira because a large continental war seems ripe. With Cheliax and Andoran having expanded guides it fills out this area.

Dragons empires hardcover would be great. I already plan on getting the original guide and maps this fall. Great area for a game.

Guide to Iobaria? The area east of the River Kingdoms.

The troops are not a problem at all. Morale is how you defeat an army. Scare the crap out of them, make them feel they have no effective way to fight back and watch it melt away.

Wizards have so many ways to kill, poison, scare and otherwise shatter the regular troops morale it isn't even funny.

The opposing hero's, monsters and enemy spell casters are the real problem. Just like any AP he will need to isolate the dangerous ones, so in discord and kill those he has too.

The trick is to do that before the enemy does the same to your army.

Step 1) Sneak in poison some troops, let loose some elemental/summoned forces, kill a medium level hero. Disappear.

Step 2) Wait for them to assemble for a council and send in minions, summoned creatures and hit them with survivable magic.

Step 3) Draw them into an ambush as they chase you and kill the leaders.

Step 4) Come in and fireball some troops and watch them run.

Scryer 1/ Fighter 1 qualifies for EK. EK levels count as fighter levels to qualify for fighter only feats. EK gets you 9/10 casting levels.

At level 12(Scryer 1/Fighter 1/EK 10) you are level 10 for spell casting, level 11 for fighter. Add another level of fighter and you have fighter effective level of 12 qualifying for some good fighter only feats. BAB +12, CL 10

After that you get 7 more levels to choose where you want to go. Go caster for 7 levels if you want 9th level spells.

Paladin 3(for saves and immunities), sorcerer 2, DD 4, EK 10 is also a possibility. At level 19 you are BAB +17(with a +4 STR from DD), CL 14.
Ridiculous saves and immune to fear and disease.

There are guides to the EK and DD plus one for attribute use to reduce MAD and one for early entry goodness.


Is there a way to search the PRD for things like feats or specials that say change DEX to CHA for AC or other things?

Sorcerer: Change from CHA to WIS and INT by bloodline(The Celestial redo and Arcane).

Oracle: Lore-revelation changing DEX to CHA for certain things like AC, initiative, etc.

Seems to me that if you are trying to do a CHA Champion of Irori knowing how to find anything that changes a bonus to CHA from another stat would be nice.

Also if you want to concentrate on WIS knowing what feats, etc. helped with that would be awesome.

Is there a way to search for these effectively or am I stuck sifting through all the books I have and the PRD, reading every description to find out if there is anything that helps.


Thinking about doing an Eldritch Knight.

Two options, not sure which to choose.

Option 1: Fighter 1, Scryer wizard 1, EK 10, Fighter 1, Scryer wizard 7. This gives me fighter level 12 for fighter only feats, BAB +16, caster level 17(9th level spells, just barely).

Option 2: Aasimar(for the Spell Like ability), Paladin 3, Sorcerer 1, EK 10, Sorcerer 6. Charisma to hit(smite x1, very limited), Charisma to resistances(minimum of +7 to all), Immune to fear and disease, Fighter level 10 for fighter only feats(miss out on greater weapon specialization), BAB +16, caster level 16(level 8 spells, just barely).

Very close, same BAB at the end, it looks like level 9 spells and prepared vs. level 8 spells, spontaneous and a big bonus to resistances and a couple of nice immunities.

Anything I missed? Any thoughts on what would work best?

rorek55 wrote:

Oracle 5(take the powers for Cha-AC in place of dex or in place of init

Can someone point out where the CHA-AC in place of dex is. Can't find it in my books.


What about the following feats.

Feral Combat Training

Aspect of the Beast

Improved Natural Attack

It seems 2 levels of Ranger would be required for this. 1d6 permanent claws sound nice.

Wanted to look at doing a Dragon Disciple build for WotR.

I like Pal 3, Sor 2, DD 10 for immunities and bonuses to saves but also like Pal 2, Rng 2, Sor 1 DD 10 for the natural weapon feats. I would really like to do a natural weapon build but I am not sure it is viable.
Both are BAB +11 with a CL or 8 or 9. The next five levels could be anything. It also leaves me with a bloodline level of 11 or 12. BAB would be +2 to 5 and caster level/bloodline +0 to +5 depending on what class I finish with.

Also considering an Aasimar Ftr 2, Sor 1, EK 2(early entry by SLA) to DD 10 with 5 more EK on the end. Advantage is BAB +16, CL 14, effective fighter level of 9 and bloodline level of 11.

Are any of these builds viable given the ending fights? A demonlord plus minions just leaves this guy looking weak.

I am sure a DD4 max will be brought up. But I am looking for an effective build using natural weapons and capitalizing on the Paladin bonuses from CHA to saves. If that won't work what should I do to get a viable character along these lines?

Please cancel my adventure path and campaign setting subscriptions. Money tightened up and I will not be able to make any purchases until September.

Thanks, Dan Waugh

I know my last WotR subscription and poster map are shipping. That is fine just cancel further items.

Seems to me an offensive caster who clears mooks works well. Fireball the minions in the other room or around the BBEG. Now the other characters don't have to fight them first. Change the damage type by feat etc. as needed. Add in conditions...dazed, etc to multiply the effect. Grab selective spell so you can blast without fear of hammering your friends.

When you hit the BBEG buff your party if you don't see a weakness matching your spells. Most of the boss fights are after several mook fights that are supposed to drain your resources. If all they drain are a few offensive spells the BBEG will resist anyway you have still done your job.

Thank you gentlemen! This is the first rules description and discussion that I have read in months where the question was discussed rationally and without name calling. Thank you!

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Blood of Beasts: Among others, catfolk and tengus have a small but dedicated following. If they can't support a book of their own, the next most obvious solution would be a bundled book for animal-men. In addition to catfolk and tengus, you could cover vanara, kitsune, ratlings...gillfolk and merfolk could go in either this or...

Blood of the beasts I would buy in a heartbeat. Awesome idea.

Blood of the Sea: Aquatic races, seconded.

Sounds cool but I am not a huge sea fan. Would work with the Shackels AP though.

Blood of the Elements: Planetouched book, seconded.

Needed. Just not really my thing.

Blood of the Serpent/Dragon: Yuan-ti and lizardfolk are two races that probably can't carry their own books but would be nice to see. Additionally, draconic races? Would this make two books or only enough for one?

Another book I would kill for. Truly awesome.

I would like to see a more detailed Dwarf book. Perhaps a little more fluff on Dwarf cities location and lost cities.

Same goes for Elves. Something in line with the blood of angels, etc. that goes into how the subtypes are different.

Last would be the Mwangi people and races. Apemen, others of the area. A real chance to be cool.

Marthkus wrote:
Empyreal allows you to use wis instead of cha.

You could go crossblooded and use Empyreal and Primal Earth.

Dwarves-reclaiming a lost stronghold
Elves-Kyonin or other realm
Dragons-all kinds of Dragons

Wow, 196 posts and I see only one actual monk build. I'm right and your wrong posts don't prove anything. Show me builds that not only compare to hit and damage but out of combat skills and combat manuevers and there affect on the GAME. If you take damage from traps, ambushes you didn't see or because you couldn't sneak past a group of mooks are you really better.

1)Dwarves reclaiming a fallen kingdom.
2)Dragon big bad. Behind the scenes at first progressing to seeing half dragons,various reptilian monsters and lesser dragons.
3)Game of Thrones type game. Intrigue, raising armies, etc.

Realm of the fellnight queen(lvl 7) seems like a good fit.

Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale(lvl 6) although not in Darkmoon would be easy to adapt.

Fangwood Keep(lvl 4) due out in November looks like it would be easily adaptable.

Could I get a copy also please.


Actually I would like to see a Blue Dragon is Qadira working behind the scenes.

You start out with raiders trying to spark a war between Taldor and Qadira. Next would be Blue Dragon blooded sorcerer, etc. followed by a half dragon. You wouldn't even be sure the Dragon was involved until the 5th episode. There is a lot you could do with that.

Black Dragons with lizardmen and associated swamp related creatures threatening a nearby city would also work.

A Red Dragon building an army and starting toward conquest of a large area also would work.

So many options, Dragons should be feared and have vast pools of expendable underlings to do their bidding.

A book detailing the fey would be great but a bigger book looking at the first world would be even better.

An AP where a mated pair of dragons controlled things from the background and you saw wyverns and their "children" in earlier sessions would be cool. Black dragons, lizard men, half dragons, wyverns etc. from the swamp or plug in your dragon type with its normal minions could be nice.

divby0 wrote:

So how does Cleave work?

For the attack roll do I add just the BAB or also the STR Modifier like on a regular attack?

You add all your modifiers to hit against the first target. You must hit the first target in order to "Cleave" through to the second target.

Who in this thread, since your last post, is still "baffled" by the text? No posts, to my knowledge (5 total, including mine) have stated that it isn't a standard action, which is in agreement with your statement.

It's not about new posts in this thread, but about the fact that every few days or every few weeks, a NEW thread with this exact same question is created.


Sorry if this sounds snarky but not everyone has been playing Pathfinder or even 3.5 since it started. Some people actually start playing and then have questions. Luckily they have people to help answer those questions. If would suck if they only had people saying how "stupid" they were for not already knowing the answer.

Give the FNG's a break and be polite.

mightyjules wrote:


i´m about to start the AP with my friends.I´ve chosen a human monk with the vow of poverty.Is that a good choice for the AP?Also our DM is not such a Deathmate:)

Please do not bost any spoilers!

From what I have heard any class that has high saves or immunities to disease or poison would be good in a jungle environment. Think Cholera, Typhoid and other funky illnesses and lots of poisonous snakes and critters. How many are in the AP, who knows, but it makes sense to be prepared.

IIRC there was thought about doing it only with Rise of the Runelords because it was the first official AP. It would be updated to Pathfinder from 3.5 but would be at least 5 years in the future. No other AP's were considered for this.

Please cancel my remaining subscriptions.


Please cancel my Pathfinder Roleplaying Game subsciption. Just the one with the core books. Leave all other subscription as they are.

Dan Waugh

I have to second Mivon army stats. It is the most likely nation to go to war with the players. After all they still want the land that Pitax had on their border. In addition if the new king ended up being an Aldori swordlord they would have an instant grudge.

Kingmaker really brought this up for me. The Birthright system(2e) had skill additions like administration and leadership skill, etc. which worked really nice with their campaign. I wanted to import this by adding administration, tactics and strategy skills but the 2/level skills meant fighters didn't do well. So I upped everyone by 2 skills/level and altered aristocrat with some of the Birthright Noble class abilities. Seems to be working just fine.

(Mysteriously spoken, of course, in broken English)

Amazingly the United States is the only country I have ever been in that denegrates speaking a foreign language. We speak English here and sometimes we don't speak it that well. Mexicans come here and speak Spanish and broken English. If you go to Europe most people there will speak English, German and French, among other languages. So Mexicans come here and don't speak perfect English so we talk trash about them. How many of you can speak even one additional language? I speak English, broken Spanish(high school was 25 years ago) and I can cuss in 2 other languages.

Terms like Little Italy, Chinatown and others were because people who didn't speak English would immigrate here and live in the same area. They learned "broken" English and expected their children to be fluent in English.

Should our borders be secure, you bet. I advocate digging a 40 foot wide and 40 foot deep trench and taking the dirt to New Orleans so it can be above sea level.

Rant over.

Kvantum wrote:
Well, given that Varnhold Vanishing isn't supposed to really start until your PCs' kingdom is at 50 hexes or so, it'll take at least 4 years of in-game time from the founding of the kingdom since you can't claim more than one hex per month for the first several years.

Not correct. After you reach 12 hexes you can start claiming 2 hexes/month and that increases as your empire size increases. Most likely it will be closer to 3 years to get to 50 hexes. The real factor in keeping the pace is stability vs. size.

Chris Ballard wrote:
Just need to know where the town of Varnhold is in relation to the starting point of the AP. I've overlooked it somewhere probably. Would appreciate knowing. Thanks.

If you print out the map from #32 and lay it next to the map from #33 it will show you what you are looking for. The little hook in the shrike river in map 32 on the right side lines up with the same hook in map 33 on the left side. Just a little bit of trimming and they fit perfectly.

Kingslayer wrote:
I would like to run the Kingmaker AP in the Greyhawk campaign setting. Does anybody have any suggestions on where to set it?

Bone March coming from Ratik jumps to mind. Wild Coast at any time also would work. After the Greyhawk Wars the Sheldomar area looks good. All of these but the Wild Coast would involve much more army level combat than Kingmaker.

I was running the kingdom building to see what I wanted to build and when and encountered a problem.

The map has 77 hexes on it. Not counting Oleg's, Candlemere Tower and the Stag Lord's fort I come up with 44 plains or hill hexes to put farms in for a total of -88 consumption. Sounds like a lot until you realize the 77 hexes only leaves room for 11 districts in your cities. If my math is right then any non plain or hill hex is a drag on your economy. What exactly do forest hexes do for you? They don't provide hunting, nuts or berries since they have no effect on consumption. They provide no other bonuses that I can see. Am I missing something?

Problem two. Stability check is 20+size or a 97 if the entire map is claimed. Without significant city district developement(more than 11 districts) you can't come within 40 of this number so you fail by more than 5 and accumulate 2 unrest per turn. Even with the Royal Assassin in place you can't slow unrest without building additional buildings which you can't because of consumption.

Problem three. Without more than 11 districts you can't build your economy past 60 which leaves you 28 short of an economy roll to get tax money.

So you can't pay consumption, can raise taxes and unrest runs rampant. It seems that the forests not constributing or another way to lower consumption is killing long term growth. If this was a forest kingdom this would come to a head much earlier. Am I wrong?

In generating income it says to make an economy check against your command DC and if successful divide the result by 5 and add that amount to your treasury.

If I had a +12 and rolled a 13 that would be 25. The DC would be 21. Do I divide 25 by 5 to get 5 BP or the 25 minus the DC of 21 to get 0 BP? I think it is the 5 BP but wanted to check.

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James Jacobs wrote:

And what Jason said is spot on.

Claiming hexes are indeed the point at which you start sending settlers and citizens and soldiers into that hex and they start building homes or whatever. Your PCs can certainly say that they rule over all of the hexes on the map, but until they're officially "claimed" during the proper point during kingdom construction, the PCs are just blowing hot air.

The king of Pitax is essentially doing just that. He claims to rule a lot of the land north of the city of Pitax, but he hasn't had the time or resources to clear and explore and claim any of those hexes yet. They're still techniclaly no-man's lands.

And as for increasing consumption when you add hexes... not only is Jason right about the fact that you have to support the settlers who live there, but you also have to pay for patrols through the region to prevent banditry and monsters, pay for tax collector and other government worker wages, repair roads or buildings or things, and pay for longer amounts of travel time.

Basically, the size of a kingdom is directly related to the cost to keep it up and running. It costs more to run a larger kingdom than a smaller one, and since Consumption is the number of how much it costs to run a kingdom, increasing a kingdom's size by adding hexes also increases total Consumption.

Just so I understand the initial kingdom building here is my best guess.

Month one I claim Oleg's as my first hex. Month two I claim a hex south and build a building at my first city-Oleg's(grassland so no extra clearance time). I can also build a road at Oleg's but no farm yet as a city is in my only hex right now. Month three I build another building at Oleg's, claim a third hex, build a road in hex two and establish a farm. Rinse and repeat. Do I have that right?

An item to boost your Charisma for starters - a Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 rings in at 4000gp. Then magical armor - I'd recommend Mithril Full Plate +1 (11500gp, but definitely worth it), a Large Mithril Shield +1 (2020gp), a Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000gp, more saves are better even for super-save paladins), Ring of Protection +1 (2000gp), Ring of Sustenance (2500gp, you're going into a desert, so being able to ignore need for food and water is huge, and you need less sleep too!).

That's 23020gp spent. I'd probably spend the last money on a +1 Morning Star, in case you have to deal with things that have DR/bludgeoning. Oh, and a 1st level Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

That is about the best advice I have ever seen. No snide remarks or condescending comments and common sense for the quest. Thanks.

I am not interested in the AP itself, it has poor reviews. I am interested in getting the best info on the elven kingdom and the dark elves. Which modules should I grab?

The descriptions of 15, 16, and 17 suggest they will be what I want. Is that correct and are any of the other modules good? This is mainly for resource info, not for the AP itself.

Nah; celestial armor only requires light armor proficiency to avoid the penalties. It's a pretty solid armor choice for bards or rogues as a result.

So 9000 gp of the cost is the +3 enhancement. Is the rest of the cost a non level enhancement? Basically would I only need to pay the difference of 16000 gp to make +5 celestial armor?

Can anyone tell me or link to the thread where it is explained why you spend 1-3 feats(arcane strike, arcane armor training, arcane armor mastery) and then have to use a swift action to use them?

I am not arguing over whether they should be I just want to hear why spending the feats wasn't enough cost. The use of a swift action every turn to actually use any of the above feats seems like a way to prevent them from being used. If I spend three feats so I can boost my damage a little and to wear medium armor and cast spells I don't understand why I have to blow my only swift action on being able to use one of those feats. That is 3 feats I could have used for something else.

Link or quick explanation why the feats were so overpowering they had to be nerfed?


Starting now get an idea about how you will organize your kingdom. What are the priorities?

People need food, lodging, protection and recreation. That makes farms, fishing, etc. and buildings for them priority one. Almost at the same time you need to organize the wardens, militia and garrisons to protect your people. Recreational shops, etc. and money makers come immediately after.

Rules for all that should come in the next installment but if you get an idea now it will go smoother.

Also, when dealing with opponents will you make them your friends if possible or kill them all and import new people?

Being a leader is about planning as much as charisma.

I actually plan to play a F2/W6/EK10 for the upcoming Kingmaker AP. I see no problem with the basic build. Having to use a swift action to use the arcane armor feats is what I don't get. I get to spend 1 or 2 feats and then lose the chance to use a quickened spell when I use them. If I spend feats to wear armor that should be it. I would love to wear armor with my EK build but I am not sure I will be able to.

What does everyone think about the difference between a Cleric 18 vs. a Paladin 3/Cleric 15 build? It seems like 9 levels of Cleric spells and a little extra turning vs. 8 levels of Cleric spells with immunity to fear, disease and a bonus to saves. Right now I am leaning toward the Paladin/Cleric build being superior. This would be a Dwarven Cleric of Torag with protection and one other domain. Thanks in advance for any input.

lojakz wrote:
Put me in the category of liking both this idea (Classic Fairies Revisited, though I like Fey Revisited better) and Classic Giants revisited. That would cover most of my favorite monsters -as the other favorite, Lycanthropes, got some love in Classic Horror's Revisited.

Another vote for Fey Revisited. This is one group that really needs to be revisited and put into a cohesive although chaotic whole.

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

Bracers of armor +4 are basically the same price as a chain shirt +4, but the shirt gives you better AC.

However, the armorless EK can do very well with extended mage armor, a wand of shield, displacement, mirror image, etc. What he gives up in AC is compensated for with being really hard to hit in the first place.

A level dip into duelist would let him add his int. bonus to AC. That could work out nicely with some builds.

So what I am hearing is that arcane armor training and arcane armor mastery are relatively worthless. My original idea was to use celestial armor(+5 for the chainmail and +3 enhancement) and let my heavy dexterity build with dex bracers use the up to +8 dexterity bonus for a +16 total enhancement for a lot less than bracers +8 would cost. Even if the enhancement got dispelled I would only lose the +3 enhancement.

If the arcane armor training/mastery is so worthless why would anyone waste two feats on it?

Arcane armor training and armor mastery both require a swift action to use. The Eldritch Knight's level ten ability allows you to cast a quickened spell using a swift action after a critical hit.

So, after spending a level in a martial class, five levels in an arcane class and ten in Eldritch Knight I still can't wear armor if I want to use the EK's capstone ability, huh?

Arcane armor training/mastery takes two feats for 20% reduction in spell failure when wearing armor and then keeps me from casting quickened spells or using the EK's level 10 ability if I use armor or causes me to lose the armor's defense. Did I miss the benefit of having Arcane armor training?

Dane Pitchford wrote:

being that he wouldn't be attacking with the blade at the same time as casting a spell, I believe that it would be allowable, yes. You don't need to have both hands on the weapon at all times, just when attacking with it.

As for Arcane Strike, being that Eldritch Knight increases the caster level of the arcane spellcasting class you already have, it would count.

Ok, after reading in another thread I have a couple more questions.

If I go with the Elf with the Quick Blade can I use a buckler also? If so can I cast spells with the buckler while holding the Quick blade in one hand?

If I decided to import the Elven Thinblade(one handed, 1d8, 18-20 crit, finessable) could I carry a light shield and still cast? How about a buckler?

I am looking to eventually use celestial armor which is alot cheaper than +8 bracers and a buckler or shield would be a big advantage.

What about the following for feats?

1-Weapon Focus-curved blade, Weapon finesse
2-Power Attack
4-Evoker(banned charm and necro), Bond-familiar
5-Improved Initiative
7-Combat Casting
8-Craft Item
9-Improved Sunder, Greater Sunder
11-Improved Critical-curved blade
13-Critical Focus, Vital Strike
15-Bleeding Critical
17-Improved Vital Strike, Spell Penetration

Elf would be the race. He can inflict serious damage with the curved blade and still cast spells up to 7th level. He can also make magic items for enhancements and scribe scrolls for the ones he wants for contingency or in extra numbers. Thoughts?

I am planning on playing an Eldritch Knight-Fighter 3, Wizard 5, Eldritch Knight 10 for the River Kingdoms AP. I have a few simple questions first.

I am thinking of playing an Elf and having him use an Elven Quick Blade. Then I started thinking about casting and having a hand "free" while using a two handed weapon. Could he hold the Quick Blade in one hand and cast or is it that not workable? If not what weapon would work well?

Second question is about Arcane Strike. Will the caster levels of EK stack with Wizard for this feat?

I have never played 3.5 or pathfinder before but I have looked at the books and ran sample characters. (Old 1E player from the 80's).

The other members of the party will be a Cleric and Ranger(TreantMonk's switch hitter build) with the fourth either a Fighter or Druid.

Mordo wrote:

When should I start my subscription for the Kingmaker AP?

Is there a possibility to set the AP subscription so it ends automatically when the AP is completed?


When you go to sign up for the AP's it will give you a start option. Right now you can start with 28 or 29, just click the one you want to start with. So, when 30 comes out it should also have 31 as an option to start the subscription.

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