Celestial Armor confusion, and are Full Plates always masterwork?


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I have a question regarding Full Plates and some questions Celestial Armor.

Are Full Plates always masterwork? The Description says:

“[...] Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces.” My bold.

This seems to indicate that they are indeed masterwork by default. But on page 466 the description of Dragonhide Plate says:

“This suit of full plate is made of dragonhide, rather than metal, so druids can wear it. It is otherwise identical to masterwork full plate ” My bold.

Why point out it’s identical to a masterwork Full Plate if all Full Plates are masterwork?

There is also something odd about the Celestial Armor.

The description of Mithral armors says: “Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. [...] This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. [... ] Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

So Celestial Armor should, just as Elven chain, have an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, but it has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8 and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%.

If the +8 max Dexterity bonus and 15% spell failure chance of is indeed correct the price 22,400 gp is just silly low, especially considering it’s a +3 chainmail.

Also the Elven chain specifically states: “This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.” Celestial Armor doesn’t, but nor does it, like the Mithral Full Plate of Speed, say that you have to be proficient in the armor type to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties.

Why does the description of Mithral Full Plate of Speed and Elven chain explicitly state whether you must be proficient in that type of armor or not to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties while Celestial Armor have no note on whether you have to or not?

Comparing Celestial Armor to an Elven chain and the Mithral Full Plate of Speed the Celestial Armor should be much more expensive.

Can anyone help me out? Has there been any explanations or errata?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Full plate, like all of the standard forms of armor listed on table 6–6, is not automatically masterwork. Simply being "individually fitted by a master armorsmith" does not make armor masterwork at all. If you want masterwork full plate, you have to spend the extra 150 gp. (Of course, since full plate already costs 1,500 gp, another 150 gp is a relatively meaningless additional expense.)

Full plate made out of dragon hide is automatically masterwork, because dragonhide is more awesome than regular steel.

Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Mithral full plate of speed is more expensive because haste is a VERY powerful effect. Anything that adds an additional attack is going to be guaranteed expensive, regardless of its other effects.


Thanks James!
Does this mean you don't have do be proficient in medium armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties when using Celestial Armor?

Thanks again for the quick answer and the clarification. Have a nice weekend. :-)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Zark wrote:

Thanks James!

Does this mean you don't have do be proficient in medium armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties when using Celestial Armor?

Thanks again for the quick answer and the clarification. Have a nice weekend. :-)

Nah; celestial armor only requires light armor proficiency to avoid the penalties. It's a pretty solid armor choice for bards or rogues as a result.


James Jacobs wrote:
Zark wrote:

Thanks James!

Does this mean you don't have do be proficient in medium armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties when using Celestial Armor?

Thanks again for the quick answer and the clarification. Have a nice weekend. :-)

Nah; celestial armor only requires light armor proficiency to avoid the penalties. It's a pretty solid armor choice for bards or rogues as a result.

Cool. Thanks for the answer.

With celestial armor and the Advanced Player’s Guide, I'm not sure I want to play any other class than a Bard :-)
Edit:
Or a Bard/Rogue or a Rogue/Fighter or a Fighter/Bard or a Bard/Paladin or a Paladin/Rogue or a Rogue/Barbarian or a Barbarian/Bard or ....
;-)


Nah; celestial armor only requires light armor proficiency to avoid the penalties. It's a pretty solid armor choice for bards or rogues as a result.

So 9000 gp of the cost is the +3 enhancement. Is the rest of the cost a non level enhancement? Basically would I only need to pay the difference of 16000 gp to make +5 celestial armor?


Daniel Waugh wrote:
So 9000 gp of the cost is the +3 enhancement. Is the rest of the cost a non level enhancement? Basically would I only need to pay the difference of 16000 gp to make +5 celestial armor?

I guess so, and that is a bit too cheap ....but is was cheap in 3.x too.

Off-topic.
Celestial Armor and Armor training is a nice combination. A dex character with 7 levels fighter could utilise maximum Dexterity bonus of +10 and wouldn’t have to bother with the armor check penalty because it would decreased 0.
I can really understand why a rogue would pick 4 levels fighter if playing a high level campaign. Armor training, weapon specialisation, and good fortitude saves. Same goes if your playing a dex Bard focused on archery. Martial weapons proficiency is also nice if you play an archer.
A level 15 fighter could utilise a maximum Dexterity bonus of +12 if wearing a Celestial Armor.
That’s really awesome


Daniel Waugh wrote:
Nah; celestial armor only requires light armor proficiency to avoid the penalties. It's a pretty solid armor choice for bards or rogues as a result.
So 9000 gp of the cost is the +3 enhancement. Is the rest of the cost a non level enhancement? Basically would I only need to pay the difference of 16000 gp to make +5 celestial armor?

I wouldn't run it that way. The total cost is closer to that of a +5 enhancement bonus worth of stuff, (maybe +4?) and the difference of those two would have to be paid.

Thought that's not THAT big of a difference of cost actually... crazy.


James Jacobs wrote:
Zark wrote:

Thanks James!

Does this mean you don't have do be proficient in medium armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties when using Celestial Armor?

Thanks again for the quick answer and the clarification. Have a nice weekend. :-)

Nah; celestial armor only requires light armor proficiency to avoid the penalties. It's a pretty solid armor choice for bards or rogues as a result.

So does Celestial Armor reduce your speed like medium armor does?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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meatrace wrote:
So does Celestial Armor reduce your speed like medium armor does?

Nope. Because it's not medium armor. It's light armor.


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Just to add to the debate...

There is nothing that I can find that would preclude using mithral as the base for the celestial armor. Since it is the magical enchantments that make it light, the mithral would still apply, just only reduce ACP and boost max dex. Of course, it would make it more expensive, but hey, it's worth it.

And, as to the speed reduction, it says treat it as light armor, and it only requires light armor proficiency, so I'd say no, it doesn't reduce speed either.


meatrace wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
meatrace wrote:
So does Celestial Armor reduce your speed like medium armor does?
Nope. Because it's not medium armor. It's light armor.

Not disagreeing necessarily, because that makes more sense given its stats, but it never says so in the writeup only that it is +3 Chainmail, and Chainmail is medium armor.

Add this to the heap of errata if it works as you say.

Are you sure about that? I would look again ;)


mdt wrote:

Just to add to the debate...

There is nothing that I can find that would preclude using mithral as the base for the celestial armor. Since it is the magical enchantments that make it light, the mithral would still apply, just only reduce ACP and boost max dex. Of course, it would make it more expensive, but hey, it's worth it.

And, as to the speed reduction, it says treat it as light armor, and it only requires light armor proficiency, so I'd say no, it doesn't reduce speed either.

I dunno about the mitrhal, it says it's made of silver and gold and is so fine and light that it can be worn under clothing as to not to betray it's presence. It is also a medium armor (chainmail) that is considered light for ALL purposes including proficiencies.

Mitrhal doesn't have any of those properties, so it if WAS made out of mitrhal, it would cost extra, but not add any extra benefit.


TheDrone wrote:
meatrace wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
meatrace wrote:
So does Celestial Armor reduce your speed like medium armor does?
Nope. Because it's not medium armor. It's light armor.

Not disagreeing necessarily, because that makes more sense given its stats, but it never says so in the writeup only that it is +3 Chainmail, and Chainmail is medium armor.

Add this to the heap of errata if it works as you say.

Are you sure about that? I would look again ;)

Nice one Drone......"Here's your sign..."


James Jacobs wrote:
...the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

That's what's tripping folks up James....the non-magical Elven Chain says that it does.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
...the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.
That's what's tripping folks up James....the non-magical Elven Chain says that it does.

It's that elven part. It adds specialness. It's not just another set of mithral chain... it's elven mithral chain.

Completely different because an elf made it.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
...the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.
That's what's tripping folks up James....the non-magical Elven Chain says that it does.

It's that elven part. It adds specialness. It's not just another set of mithral chain... it's elven mithral chain.

Completely different because an elf made it.

lol...

Well, I would have done the old "elven steel" thing from 1st Ed., but the designers of 3.0 went ahead and made it Mithral, so now it has to square with the rules.

...although, I just noticed the price is off...then I checked my 3.0 and 3.5 DMG and the latest 3.5 SRD, price was 4,150gp...so it got changed. Most likely a typo, unless someone was trying to justify the specialness and didn't finish the job.


Sounds like exactly what happened... it costs more because it does more now.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Can'tFindthePath wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
...the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.
That's what's tripping folks up James....the non-magical Elven Chain says that it does.

Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.

Grand Lodge

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James Jacobs wrote:


Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.

Hey, I resemble that remark! 8P


James Jacobs wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
...the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.
That's what's tripping folks up James....the non-magical Elven Chain says that it does.
Reading the rules too closely is bad for your sanity.

I have at least two dozen different game systems and nearly everything for 3.0 and 3.5.....I went round the bend years ago...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.

Elven chainmail and the mithral shirt are nothing more than armor made of mithral. They're listed as examples of types of armor made of mithral... we could have also listed mithral breastplates or mithral scale mail or mithral half-plate, but we didn't.

In the end, the prices are fine the way they are. At least as far as I'm concerned. If they're weird to you, by all means change them for your game.

Frankly, the over-examination of tiny fiddly rules bits in an attempt to "solve" the equation of how things are priced is more or less destined to cause only greater confusion. Magic item pricing is equal parts math and art, since the game itself wasn't designed from the ground up by mathematicians.


James Jacobs wrote:

In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.

Elven chainmail and the mithral shirt are nothing more than armor made of mithral. They're listed as examples of types of armor made of mithral... we could have also listed mithral breastplates or mithral scale mail or mithral half-plate, but we didn't.

In the end, the prices are fine the way they are. At least as far as I'm concerned. If they're weird to you, by all means change them for your game.

Frankly, the over-examination of tiny fiddly rules bits in an attempt to "solve" the equation of how things are priced is more or less destined to cause only greater confusion. Magic item pricing is equal parts math and art, since the game itself wasn't designed from the ground up by mathematicians.

I don't think people are overly concerned with the prices. It is the fact that the "official" ruling on proficiency requirements for Mithral armor is directly contradicted by the only example in the Rulebook.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.

Elven chainmail and the mithral shirt are nothing more than armor made of mithral. They're listed as examples of types of armor made of mithral... we could have also listed mithral breastplates or mithral scale mail or mithral half-plate, but we didn't.

In the end, the prices are fine the way they are. At least as far as I'm concerned. If they're weird to you, by all means change them for your game.

Frankly, the over-examination of tiny fiddly rules bits in an attempt to "solve" the equation of how things are priced is more or less destined to cause only greater confusion. Magic item pricing is equal parts math and art, since the game itself wasn't designed from the ground up by mathematicians.

I don't think people are overly concerned with the prices. It is the fact that the "official" ruling on proficiency requirements for Mithral armor is directly contradicted by the only example in the Rulebook.

..but D&D/Pathfinder is a game of exceptions. That specific armor is an exception to the rule.


wraithstrike wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor. (...)

Elven chainmail and the mithral shirt are nothing more than armor made of mithral. They're listed as examples of types of armor made of mithral... we could have also listed mithral breastplates or mithral scale mail or mithral half-plate, but we didn't.

I don't think people are overly concerned with the prices. It is the fact that the "official" ruling on proficiency requirements for Mithral armor is directly contradicted by the only example in the Rulebook.
..but D&D/Pathfinder is a game of exceptions. That specific armor is an exception to the rule.
But from what James is saying, they AREN'T supposed to be exceptions to the mithril rules, he's saying they ARE supposed to be 'just mithril'. If this the case, the RAW may need to be errata'd:
PRD: Specific Armors wrote:
(Elven Chain) This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.


So then you can actually enchant a set of celstial armor?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

James was wrong. Mithral armor, such as elven chain, IS treated as light armor. No need for errata.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Lael Treventhius wrote:
So then you can actually enchant a set of celstial armor?

Nope; it's already a magic item. You could make a similar suit of magic armor with different properties, but celestial armor is what it is; a specific TYPE of magic armor. Just as a sunblade is a specific type of magic weapon, and a cloak of the manta ray's a specific type of magic cloak.


Oh.
So a character without Medium Armom proficiency could wear a Mithril Breastplate with no penalties, and Tumble away to their heart's content?
And a character with Medium Proficiency and Armor Training 1 could do the same with Mithril Fullplate?
(obviously, the only way to get Armor Training is via Fighter who has Heavy Armor proficiency, but for the sake of argument)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Quandary wrote:

Oh.

So a character without Medium Armom proficiency could wear a Mithril Breastplate with no penalties, and Tumble away to their heart's content?

This would have been true in 3.5 but not in Pathfinder. They made a slight change so that while Mithril Breastplate is light for purposes of movement it still requires Medium Armor proficiency.

PRD: Mithral
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.


PRD: Special Materials Armor wrote:
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. (...)
PRD: Specific Armors wrote:
(Elven Chain) This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.

Judging from James' very last post, which seems like he actually verified this somehow, Elven Chain is correct and is the correct way for all Mithril Armors to function.

Can we verify which part is wrong and will be Errata'd? Assuming that Elven Chain IS 'just Mithril armor' with the same intended rules/properties.
Though honestly I too was 'sold' on Pathfinder's "new way" of dealing with mithril armor (as seen in the general mithril armor rules), and if there is indeed no error, I would say that Elven Chain IS supposed to be a special case beyond 'just Mithril armor'.

At this point though, I'm not going to go nuts taking James' (shifting) word on this as gospel, after all he's already said he feels looking at rules to closely can lead to insanity.
Perhaps that realization could have been the moment of lucidity within the storm of his tortured psyche. :-)


ShadowChemosh wrote:
Quandary wrote:

Oh.

So a character without Medium Armom proficiency could wear a Mithril Breastplate with no penalties, and Tumble away to their heart's content?

This would have been true in 3.5 but not in Pathfinder. They made a slight change so that while Mithril Breastplate is light for purposes of movement it still requires Medium Armor proficiency.

PRD: Mithral
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.

Confirmed verbatim in the PRPG Core Rulebook.

So, James was right. Errata necessary.

Personally, I don't mind if the Elven Chain is special, it just needs to say so, and they need to audit the pricing to be sure people are charged an appropriate amount for the benny.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Personally, I don't mind if the Elven Chain is special, it just needs to say so, and they need to audit the pricing to be sure people are charged an appropriate amount for the benny.

This came up during the playtest and the early discussion of the final book. Elven Chain is special. Mithral armor in general does not change the proficiency requirements, while Elven Chain does.

And it says so, no errata needed. Considering the price difference between Elven Chain and Mithril Breastplate is so tiny (and the breastplate superior in most regards), I don't think any price increase is needed.

The confusion comes from it being a triple exception.

  • Chain mail is medium.
  • Exception, Mithral makes medium armors light.
  • Exception, Mithral doesn't change proficiency requirement.
  • Exception, Elven Chain does change the proficiency requirement.


  • Majuba wrote:
    Can'tFindthePath wrote:
    Personally, I don't mind if the Elven Chain is special, it just needs to say so, and they need to audit the pricing to be sure people are charged an appropriate amount for the benny.

    This came up during the playtest and the early discussion of the final book. Elven Chain is special. Mithral armor in general does not change the proficiency requirements, while Elven Chain does.

    And it says so, no errata needed. Considering the price difference between Elven Chain and Mithril Breastplate is so tiny (and the breastplate superior in most regards), I don't think any price increase is needed.

    The confusion comes from it being a triple exception.

  • Chain mail is medium.
  • Exception, Mithral makes medium armors light.
  • Exception, Mithral doesn't change proficiency requirement.
  • Exception, Elven Chain does change the proficiency requirement.
  • +1, no errata needed.


    Majuba wrote:
    Can'tFindthePath wrote:
    Personally, I don't mind if the Elven Chain is special, it just needs to say so, and they need to audit the pricing to be sure people are charged an appropriate amount for the benny.

    This came up during the playtest and the early discussion of the final book. Elven Chain is special. Mithral armor in general does not change the proficiency requirements, while Elven Chain does.

    And it says so, no errata needed. Considering the price difference between Elven Chain and Mithril Breastplate is so tiny (and the breastplate superior in most regards), I don't think any price increase is needed.

    The confusion comes from it being a triple exception.

  • Chain mail is medium.
  • Exception, Mithral makes medium armors light.
  • Exception, Mithral doesn't change proficiency requirement.
  • Exception, Elven Chain does change the proficiency requirement.
  • Well, you are correct in that it is consistent with all the other "specific" entries in the Armor and Weapons section of the Magical Items chapter. I was thinking of a more concise, informative style of listing items, but that would require a rewrite of the whole chapter. So, point goes to Majuba. No Errata required.

    On a related note, this is just the sort of thing that went on during the first year after the release of 3.0, and again when 3.5 came out. Those little bits of knowledge about the discussions in the Beta are golden. Or you could say, "why do you have to be in the designers office to understand the details of the system". I'm not slamming Paizo here. They have a tiny staff compared to The WotC back in the day, and Paizo does great work. It's just that there are so many unnecessary words in the Core Rulebook (which came from the SRD) and none of them tell us details like this.


    That's why these Messageboards are so great. Ask and you get help. If not from James or Jason, people like Majuba and others help you and me :-)
    edit
    Here is a thread from the beta test you might want to read.
    ...and here is the quote if the link for some reason won't work.

    Jason Bulmahn wrote:


    Well, it seems like this is going the way I thought it might...

    Mithral armor gets a bit of a nerf.
    Elven Chain becomes the unique exception.
    Mithral weapons become enhanced silver....

    All of these things make sense to me... Objections?

    Jason Bulmahn
    Lead Designer
    Paizo Publishing

    Paizo Employee Creative Director

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    No errata needed.

    Mithral chainmail and elven chainmail are different things, is all. This appeals to me because that gives elven chainmal a REASON to be called out as a specific type of armor, after all...


    James Jacobs wrote:

    No errata needed.

    Mithral chainmail and elven chainmail are different things, is all. This appeals to me because that gives elven chainmal a REASON to be called out as a specific type of armor, after all...

    + 10 ;-)

    Liberty's Edge

    I really hate to drudge this thread back up, but it hasn't been dead for too long-about a week-so...We've answered the question about elven chain, but the question about celestial armor was never answered to my satisfaction.

    The consensus seems to be that it affects the required proficiency...but I see no evidence for that. The only convention we have to go by is mithral. Mithral causes armor to be "treated as one weight lower". Elven chain claims to be "treated as one weight lower for all purposes, including proficiency".

    Given that celestial armor uses the wording from mithral, as opposed to the wording from elven chain, I cannot help but come to the conclusion that the RAW is telling me I need medium armor proficiency to wear celestial armor. There's no hard proof, only convention; but the convention is implying pretty strongly.

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    kroarty wrote:
    Given that celestial armor uses the wording from mithral, as opposed to the wording from elven chain, I cannot help but come to the conclusion that the RAW is telling me I need medium armor proficiency to wear celestial armor. There's no hard proof, only convention; but the convention is implying pretty strongly.

    My PDF reads "It is considered light armor"

    That seems pretty clear to me that it's light armour. It does not say "...lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."


    I agree it would be preferable for Celestial Armor to include the phrase "in all ways" and/or "including proficiency" - Technically, it may not be necessary since it there is no implication Mithril rules would apply to it, but it just makes it 100% clear because plenty of groups WOULD get confused. Like JJ did with Mithril/Elven Chain.

    Liberty's Edge

    Yea, nevermind. I was paraphrasing, of course; and the mithral description is a lot more verbose than I remember it. Logically, elven chain specifies that it does affect proficiency because otherwise it would be assumed to be merely mithral, because its made of mithral; celestial armor isn't subject to this logic, being made of silver or gold. I'd still feel more comfortable if celestial armor clarified its stance explicitly, but I'm convinced.


    Before this argument gets more out of hand, could I just point out that Mithril Chainmail costs 4150gp, while Elven Chain costs 5150gp. So they are not the same thing.


    Hello, that thread answered many questions, however there is one problem I have had (and I think most players had got) with 3, 3.5 and Pathfinder and Celestial Armors.

    A customized Celestial armor is one of the most demanded (or created with magic creation feats) magic armors. Players try to extract the "celestial" special property of the celestial armor and apply the property to any kind of armor suits, for a fixed price, they also ask if the propierties of Mithral and the "celestial" effect would stack.
    It would allow to make a celestial breastplate, with improved AC, smaller arcane spell failure, etc.. (chainmail is quite an obsolete armor) for just another 100 gp. So nobody is going to use the armor described in the book.
    It would also allow spellcasters to get VERY high AC values without using bracers of armor and saving a lot of money (taking 1 or 2 feats to decrease the arcane spell failure to 0 of course). I don't know if that's what the developers had in mind.

    It would be great to know if special abilities of Unique items are meant to be used in this way. Making the celestial property into an armor special ability with solid pricing rules would also be very good, the item has the potential to dramatically modify the statistics of many characters and yet the book (d&d 3, 3.5 or PF) and WtC (or Paizo) haven't provided much information about it. I'm sick of discussing with some players how a mithral celestial +5 heavy fortification full plate unbalances the game if the celestial property increases the price in about 10000 gps (of about 120000 total), and honestly I can't figure out a fair way to price that.

    Thank you.


    IkeFromSpain wrote:

    Hello, that thread answered many questions, however there is one problem I have had (and I think most players had got) with 3, 3.5 and Pathfinder and Celestial Armors.

    A customized Celestial armor is one of the most demanded (or created with magic creation feats) magic armors. Players try to extract the "celestial" special property of the celestial armor and apply the property to any kind of armor suits, for a fixed price, they also ask if the propierties of Mithral and the "celestial" effect would stack.
    It would allow to make a celestial breastplate, with improved AC, smaller arcane spell failure, etc.. (chainmail is quite an obsolete armor) for just another 100 gp. So nobody is going to use the armor described in the book.
    It would also allow spellcasters to get VERY high AC values without using bracers of armor and saving a lot of money (taking 1 or 2 feats to decrease the arcane spell failure to 0 of course). I don't know if that's what the developers had in mind.

    It would be great to know if special abilities of Unique items are meant to be used in this way. Making the celestial property into an armor special ability with solid pricing rules would also be very good, the item has the potential to dramatically modify the statistics of many characters and yet the book (d&d 3, 3.5 or PF) and WtC (or Paizo) haven't provided much information about it. I'm sick of discussing with some players how a mithral celestial +5 heavy fortification full plate unbalances the game if the celestial property increases the price in about 10000 gps (of about 120000 total), and honestly I can't figure out a fair way to price that.

    Thank you.

    Thread ressurection. And +1 to the poster above me. If "Celestial" is some type of enhancement that could theoretically be put onto other armours, as James seems to say above, what should be its pricing. A +X on the enhancement scale or a fixed price?

    Although to be honest, something resembling the old "nimble" enchantment ( preferably being able to be taken more than once ) would be very fine, too. :p


    It's not in the books, there's only one kind of armor to which the special property applies...
    So, make up your own rules.
    According to Mithral (basically), I'd go with a higher cost for heavy armor base types and a lower cost for light armor base types.
    I won't do any maths here, it's just my opinion.

    And yes, I allow Celestial Armor to be made from Mithral IF the right Armorsmith can be found AND the proper price is paid for mithral chainmail to begin with - after all, it's chainmail BEFORE the enchantment will be applied.

    Paizo Employee Creative Director

    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    magnuskn wrote:
    Thread ressurection. And +1 to the poster above me. If "Celestial" is some type of enhancement that could theoretically be put onto other armours, as James seems to say above, what should be its pricing. A +X on the enhancement scale or a fixed price?

    Without the cost of the +3 chainmail element of celestial armor, we get a price of about 13,000 gp. The simplest solution is to just say that its effects cost about 13,000 gp and be done with it... but of course, its effects are more powerful when put on heavier armor, so you'd probably want to adjust the cost significantly if, say, this ability were to go onto a suit of full plate.

    All of which is why we DIDN'T present these abilities as a generic armor quality, but only as a specific type of magic armor. It's just simpler and easier.


    I prefer having Celestial Armor as a unique magic item that can't be further enchanted, if just because it's a thankful break from the drudgery of a +1 flaming decapitating oiled up beautified mithril chainmail.

    Having unique magic items just be unique magic items and still be awesome is pretty rad.


    ProfessorCirno wrote:

    I prefer having Celestial Armor as a unique magic item that can't be further enchanted, if just because it's a thankful break from the drudgery of a +1 flaming decapitating oiled up beautified mithril chainmail.

    Having unique magic items just be unique magic items and still be awesome is pretty rad.

    I don't know -- it's more rad when they aren't passed into worthlessness when you can't keep them updated to match the equipment you need for your level. I mean yeah nice +2 chain mail that's light and can let you fly while hiding under your clothes... but not so nice when you can get +5 heavy fortification mithral chain mail that does most of that and gives more of a bonus.


    Abraham spalding wrote:
    ProfessorCirno wrote:

    I prefer having Celestial Armor as a unique magic item that can't be further enchanted, if just because it's a thankful break from the drudgery of a +1 flaming decapitating oiled up beautified mithril chainmail.

    Having unique magic items just be unique magic items and still be awesome is pretty rad.

    I don't know -- it's more rad when they aren't passed into worthlessness when you can't keep them updated to match the equipment you need for your level. I mean yeah nice +2 chain mail that's light and can let you fly while hiding under your clothes... but not so nice when you can get +5 heavy fortification mithral chain mail that does most of that and gives more of a bonus.

    I can safely say that Celestial Armor will never be worthless due to the giant dexterity allowance and its availability as light armor.

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