How come dogs have a Cha of 6?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Even lap dogs (which use the statistics of foxes) have a Cha of 6, yet people ooh and aah over dogs all the time irl. Yeah, they may not be intelligent like humans, but they have very agreeable personalities. That’s why they are known as “man’s best friend”.

I mean, for example, I personally have literally chosen dogs as Animal Companions before despite having better options, because of how likable they are. I even chose a lap dog as a Familiar once.

Just flabbergasts me that Paizo made that choice.


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Charisma isn't so much "likeability" as "the ability to leverage one's force of personality to elicit desired responses in others."

Dogs are not usually successful when their desired response is "give me treats" or "take me for a walk."


"dog" in the Bestiary doesn't automatically assume domesticated pets. Ever come across a feral dog IRL? Ever thought, when they were barking and growling at you to try and get you to back off, that they were "lovable?"

And then also what PotentialColeslaw said there too.


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Well, it's kind of subjective how pleasant dogs actually are. Some people consider them awkward because they drool, lick, smell, bark and follow around even if the person wants their peace.

But Cha is more than about being agreeable anyway:

CRB wrote:
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.

At least in my book an average dog has a flatter personality, less personal magnetism and much less capability to lead humans than an average human. Appearance is subjective, won't judge that one.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:


Dogs are not usually successful when their desired response is "give me treats" or "take me for a walk."

what you talking about? Or maybe my dog is just a higher level than most, or I take a racial penalty to resist doggo charm effects?


To be clear, those are just the stats for the "average" 15 point buy dog. It may not even be taking a racial penalty to charisma, but simply using it as a dump stat. So an 18 charisma dog may be possible, for the un-average dog.


The Charisma scores of creatures are assigned in a arbitrary way, because Charisma doesn't just have one meaning. In addition to being your force of personality, it can reflect how attractive you are, how charming you are, how terrifying you are (see: Undead creatures in general), and, most importantly, how well you communicate and work well with others.

The ability to work with a group should not be underestimated, and is one of the reasons we (humanity) have gotten as far as we have, Now this all does lead to some odd situations, as has been noted in the past, like how Dwarves, a race that is noted for it's ability to work together in an organized fashion, have an average Charisma of about 8, while a Tyrannosaurus has a Charisma of 10...

Well maybe that does make sense, depending on who you ask T-Rexes are scary and/or cool, and Dwarves are just grubby dirt farmers, lol.


Dwarves are lawful and wise. It means they are often good at dealing with the shortcomings of others when working as a group.


Do you ever listen to what a dog says? I mean really listen: and take your dog's opinion seriously.

Do you ever follow a dog's orders? The answer to that is sometimes: when a dog is really emphatically making its point like when it's defending its property or if an aid dog approaches you in its harness with no master, barking at you and backing in a certain direction, asking you for help? You don't obey those dogs because of Charisma: those dogs have a Circumstance Bonus.

There are your Lassies and Benjis, and when you find a dog that charismatic, you make it into a movie star.

Did you notice that a dog's pronoun is "it?" Personally, I don't even think of dogs sexually. And every female dog I ever met is a total b@@@$.


Y'know, this might also have something to do with this being the Cha score of a dog in relation to PCs. Dogs are highly social animals that travel in packs. It might be that the standard dog has a Cha of 10-12 in relation to OTHER dogs, but when attempting to communicate with PCs it has a 6.

Now, if you gave a dog limited speech and the ability to, say, wear disguises and solve mysteries...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Dogs have much less self awareness. So their Charisma is lower because they don’t see themselves as separate from the pack as most humanoids do. If they had more speech capability and could learn to be more self aware, they would have higher scores.


Reminder that Baba Yaga and Cthulhu have incredibly high charisma.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Even lap dogs (which use the statistics of foxes) have a Cha of 6.

Six? that's about five points too high for a dog.


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Neriathale wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Even lap dogs (which use the statistics of foxes) have a Cha of 6.
high

That’s a weird way to spell “low”.


Yeah, dogs should really have a charisma of at least 20.


Is anyone else starting to visualize a tournament between various awakened and/or anthropomorphic animal sorcerers? Or bards?


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Sysryke wrote:
Is anyone else starting to visualize a tournament between various awakened and/or anthropomorphic animal sorcerers? Or bards?

Well, they aren't sorcerers or bards, but ever heard of Wacky Races? Or Laff-O-Lympics? Lots of anthropomorphic animals there.


Yet somehow, cats get a Cha of 7, despite being almost entirely unable to exert any force of will on anything. They don't have the facial muscles or variety of voice to emotionally affect humans like dogs d and they're antisocial loners to whom leadership is an alien concept.

A cat doesn't respond to any stimulus bar food or sex, like an ooze. AoN lists them under Equipment. Like a backpack or a bottle of oil. That's a Charisma of -.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Everyone knows cats are more full of themselves than dogs.


Mudfoot wrote:

Yet somehow, cats get a Cha of 7, despite being almost entirely unable to exert any force of will on anything. They don't have the facial muscles or variety of voice to emotionally affect humans like dogs d and they're antisocial loners to whom leadership is an alien concept.

A cat doesn't respond to any stimulus bar food or sex, like an ooze. AoN lists them under Equipment. Like a backpack or a bottle of oil. That's a Charisma of -.

I hate to disagree, but as an all animals lover, I feel compelled to point out that your arguments are subjective.

The culture of ancient Egypt would beg to differ with you.
The various vocalizations of cats around the world would as well. "Meow" is not in fact the sound a cat makes everywhere.
Also, many people succumb to the power of the purr. Not to mention headbutts, twinning, and kneading. The expressions may differ, but in their own ways cats are just as communicative. How much this affects an individual will vary from person to person. Charisma not being exclusive to leadership, I'd also say their can be great forceful weight behind the disgusted glare a cat can level at one who's displeased them.

Ultimately, Cha stats on all animals seem highly arbitrary. The menace of a rattlesnake, the cuteness of a bunny, the playfulness of a puppy, or the aura of extreme self-assurance of a cat; these all carry the weight of personality, and all have different strengths in different circumstances.


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Cats are capable of manipulating people (c.f. "local cat has never been fed in entire life, says local cat") it's just that they full stop hardly care what anybody else thinks. Like the only reason adult cats meow is "to manipulate humans."

Dogs are more social creatures so "approval/disapproval from peers" matters to them.

Grand Lodge

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That's odd, when I have dog with rice and soy sauce, I usually don't think about its Charisma.


People like dogs because they are loyal and obedient. They are easily trained and eager to please their masters. Even a kid can train one without too much effort. So in short they make great followers.

CHA is all about leadership, which is not a dog’s strong point. A creature with a high CHA score is going to end up dominating creatures around it. Sure dogs can get pushy when they want attention, but are quick to submit. When your dog’s rolls over and shows its belly that is the dog showing submission to you.


Spoke with paizo. It's a typo. Missing the 0 after the 6. Please adjust your books at home for doggo. Then give treat and walk your doggo.

Link to FAQ

Shadow Lodge

Animals in general in pathfinder have 6 or 7 cha. Dire animals get 10. There are very few exceptions.


I like dogs as much as anyone, but they are bottom tier negotiators who give you their entire life and key to their happiness for 2 meals and head pats, and have a tail that betrays their bluff checks. They also have difficulty with use magic device for anything activated by a means other than removing all the fluff.


If you're going to complain about the mental stats of animals, ravens with an intelligence of 2 seems a much more egregious short changing of our animal friends.


At least Paizo appreciates the fact that most undead are very sexy.


Easy... Halflings taste better... you can only trick the public that the meat they are eating...

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