Armor Master Archetype question on Armored Defense


Rules Questions


Armored Defense shows rules to replace Weapon Training 1 and 3, and Armor Mastery. It shows what happens at level 5 (Weapon Training 1) and level 19 (Armor Mastery). What happens at Level 13 for (Weapon Training 3)? Do the DR numbers go up? I see the level 5 DR numbers are multiplied by 3 to make the level 19 DR numbers...going off that progression, would level 13 numbers go up by a multiple of 2? DR 2/-(Light); DR 4/-(Medium); DR 6/-(Heavy) ?


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Since you can't really do individual replacements with an archetype, it is all a package deal.

There is a similar issue with Fortification, which grants abilities at 9th and 13th levels but replaces Weapon Training 2 and 4 (9th and 17th levels).


David knott 242 wrote:


Since you can't really do individual replacements with an archetype, it is all a package deal.

There is a similar issue with Fortification, which grants abilities at 9th and 13th levels but replaces Weapon Training 2 and 4 (9th and 17th levels).

I noticed those mistakes but I have the first Ultimate Combat errata 1.0 but there are no entries for those 2 abilities. Did they come out with a subsequent errata?

Dark Archive

ttolentino1 wrote:
Armored Defense shows rules to replace Weapon Training 1 and 3, and Armor Mastery. It shows what happens at level 5 (Weapon Training 1) and level 19 (Armor Mastery). What happens at Level 13 for (Weapon Training 3)? Do the DR numbers go up? I see the level 5 DR numbers are multiplied by 3 to make the level 19 DR numbers...going off that progression, would level 13 numbers go up by a multiple of 2? DR 2/-(Light); DR 4/-(Medium); DR 6/-(Heavy) ?

So you get armor training 1 instead of 2

If an archetype replaces a class feature that's part of a series of improvements or additions to the base class's ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6 at 5th level—it improves to +2d6 just as if she had finally gained the increase for 3rd level. This adjustment continues at every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

All instances of Weapon Training are replaced by Armored Defense or Fortification, so we don't need to worry about a reduced/delayed Weapon Training progression.

And archetypes are not absolutely required to have a perfect match between the levels of abilities gained vs. levels of abilities lost -- thus my "package deal" reference. They are not going to issue errata about which archetype abilities replace which original class abilities when it has absolutely no effect on how the archetype works. It is just slightly more difficult to evaluate the power balance of the archetype.


David knott 242 wrote:


All instances of Weapon Training are replaced by Armored Defense or Fortification, so we don't need to worry about a reduced/delayed Weapon Training progression.

And archetypes are not absolutely required to have a perfect match between the levels of abilities gained vs. levels of abilities lost -- thus my "package deal" reference. They are not going to issue errata about which archetype abilities replace which original class abilities when it has absolutely no effect on how the archetype works. It is just slightly more difficult to evaluate the power balance of the archetype.

So...just for clarification...

Armored Defense at level 5... DR 1/2/3
Armored Defense at level 13... DR 1/2/3 <-- no increase? No change?
Armored Defense at level 19... DR 4/8/12

I understand it replaces the Weapon Training ability but seems like a weak progression...14 levels at the same DR levels until a major jump.

Per what's written in the book for this ability...there is no indicator that states "At level 13, blah blah blah happens." Shows only what happens for 2 of the 3 levels this ability replaces.


If it matters that much 2 4 6 would seem to be the math of it, at 13. Odd it wasn't adding in like that, though. Asking a GM to make the change could work but keep in mind that's just a suggestion (although one that's balanced in levels in powers and progression)

Liberty's Edge

ttolentino1 wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:


All instances of Weapon Training are replaced by Armored Defense or Fortification, so we don't need to worry about a reduced/delayed Weapon Training progression.

And archetypes are not absolutely required to have a perfect match between the levels of abilities gained vs. levels of abilities lost -- thus my "package deal" reference. They are not going to issue errata about which archetype abilities replace which original class abilities when it has absolutely no effect on how the archetype works. It is just slightly more difficult to evaluate the power balance of the archetype.

So...just for clarification...

Armored Defense at level 5... DR 1/2/3
Armored Defense at level 13... DR 1/2/3 <-- no increase? No change?
Armored Defense at level 19... DR 4/8/12

I understand it replaces the Weapon Training ability but seems like a weak progression...14 levels at the same DR levels until a major jump.

Per what's written in the book for this ability...there is no indicator that states "At level 13, blah blah blah happens." Shows only what happens for 2 of the 3 levels this ability replaces.

It seems to lack stuff because you look a single ability.

Armored Defense replaces weapon training 1 and 3, and armor mastery, i.e. the abilities you normally get at level 5, 13 and 20.
But you get Fortification too. It gives light fortification at level 9, moderate at level 13, while replacing weapon training 2 and 4, normally received at level 9 and 17.
It trades away Armor mastery, but at the same level you get an ability that is better unless you use light armors.
Plus the benefit that the DR is cumulative with adamantine armor. AFAIK all other DR overlap with the DR from adamantine armor, so, as soon as you can afford it, you get a further increase in you DR that no other class gets.

So you receive an ability at level 5, one at level 9, one at level 13 and one at level 19. Plus an increase in touch AC at level 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 in exchange for Bravery.

As David knott 242 said, you must look the entire package.
Rarely a single piece of an archetype is balanced by itself.

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