How often do you use Aid Another?

[VoodistMonk]

Won't lie, after playing a Kobold Cleric, I cannot get enough of Aid Another... I usually rode on the shoulders of the Dwarf, my only contribution was Aid Another/Bodyguard/Longspear, and a Dazing Channel get out of jail free card.

I will VMC or Adopted or whatever it takes it get at least some these in all of my characters that I actually play:

Aid Allies (Order of the Dragon)
Effortless Aid (Investigator Talent)
Helpful (Halfling)
Perfect Aid Revelation (Succor Mystery)
Shoulder to Shoulder (Kobold)
Strategy (Variant Channeling)

Arcane Strike/Gloves of Arcane Striking

Rings of Tactican Precision

All of it, all day long, never an action wasted...

[Sysryke]

Almost never outside of skill checks. I need to learn more about this. Most of my group has years of experience; but where mechanics intersect with advanced tactical play we're still novices in many regards.

[VoodistMonk]

It's free!

Standand action to improve your friend's defense... roll to hit an AC 10. Did you make it? Did you hit a 10? They get a bonus to their AC.

Standand action to improve your friend's next attack... roll to hit an AC 10. Did you make it? Did you hit a 10? They get a bonus to attack.

You can cheat this bonus to be QUITE noteworthy... and cheat the action it takes down to a swift with some investment.

It's the game's most legit hack, because you actually help your friends... suddenly Bodyguard becomes a gamechanger for your boy with reach...

What if somebody else spends their AoO to give YOU a +5 (+9!) AC bonus, literally negating an incoming attack? WTF? How cool is that? That never happens, right?

What if somebody else spends their swift action to give YOU a +5 (+9!) untyped bonus to your next attack...

It's freaking nuts what you can do if you actually try help your friends!

That's f!ck!n' teamwormk!
-Jack Black.

[avr]

When it's just a +2 for one attack or something as a standard action it's seldom worth it. When there's more stacked onto it or you can get it off with a lesser action that's another matter.

[VoodistMonk]

You hear about low level Wizards running out of spell and Fighters with nowhere to go... help the archer, or don't, it's your choice... a +4 matters at level 2 to the one guy with Rapid Shot.

Always worth it.

One trait and some backstory gets you a +4 almost by accident.

It's not like VMC Cavalier is overly terrible on a decent number of builds... oh no, I had to take teamwork feats and got Tactician...

Or any number of ways to spike Aid Another... Arcane Strike and the Gloves of Arcane Striking are amazing even without adding the Arcane Strike bonus to Aid Another. With Blooded Arcane Strike, you are a splash damage monster, and oh yeah, you can help your friends like there's no tomorrow...

[Wonderstell]

With the exception of boosting some physical skills I see almost no use of it. You need to invest quite a lot of resources to make it worthwhile, and to make it good your whole build usually revolves around it.

VoodistMonk wrote:

You hear about low level Wizards running out of spell and Fighters with nowhere to go... help the archer, or don't, it's your choice... a +4 matters at level 2 to the one guy with Rapid Shot.

If you, as a fighter, are capable of making an Aid Another check then you were capable of attacking the enemy instead. It's never an option if you had "nowhere to go". And low level Wizards should try to avoid running adjacent to the monster if they want to live.

There's also the problem that Aid Another requires you to be able to make a melee attack against someone engaged in melee combat with your ally. It's not actually possible to help the archer unless they're attacking someone threatening them.

VoodistMonk wrote:

One trait and some backstory gets you a +4 almost by accident.

But what if I don't want to be adopted by halflings and raised in a society not my own? Adopted comes with a lot of backstory baggage that's not easily ignored. Order of the Dragon mostly caters to characters on the good-axis which means you're pigeonholed into roleplaying a very specific character.

I have the same issue with every build that takes the Wayang Spellhunter trait.

[Name Violation]

I've made 4 or so bodyguards, not including the animal companion that also bodyguarded.

So I've made a LOT of aid another attempts.
I think all of them took the halfling trait to aid for 4 instead of 2, even if they had to take additional traits to get it

[MrCharisma]

Yeah I think Aid Another is something that's fairly useless unless hou invest in it.

If you DO invest in it however, it can be game-breakingly good.

The trouble is that most people don't want to invest in it at all unless it's game-breakingly good, which is a shame.

If you made a Bard with the Bodyguard feat and Arcane Strike, then bought Gloves of Arcane Striking you could give your allies +5AC by level 10 vs a few attacks every round. This isn't the +18AC (or whatever) that's possible by spending all your resources, but +5AC vs 1 attack per round will save your allies a LOT of strife.

If your Investigator takes EFFORTLESS AID and the Helpful trait (not even the Halfling version) you can give the barbarian +3 to hit in place of your iterative attack, which might be a great use of your turn.

I do think the minimum investment to make this viable is the bodyguard feat (or some other way of removing the standard action to aid another) and at least a +4 bonus to your allies when you aid (20% chance your aid actually effects the combat). This lets you participate in combat while aiding others and gives enough of a bonus that you should see results in most combats.

[yukongil]

as is, it's useless without a lot of investment. That's why our table has used the Combat Reaction rules from Trailblazer since it came out.

basically everyone gets a combat reaction with each attack they can make (so 1 to start, +1 at BAB 6, 11, 16), you can use these to make AoO, Aid Another, Immediate Actions and which reset at the start of your turn. It helps keep players engaged when it's not their turn immensely.

[Mark Hoover 330]

So I don't get to be a player much, and a lot of my games advance pretty slowly so they're usually in the low to mid levels for a long time. As a GM I use it a ton - intelligent creatures or even some Animal types often attack in packs in my games, using Aid Another to make sure that one of them gets a good chance to hit.

That being said I've made two characters of the 3 I've played recently that were designed around the concept of Aid Another. One, a half-elf Wizard with an Owl (Valet archetype) familiar was not only a crafter and a generalist arcane spellcaster but she also took traits on both herself AND the owl (by changing out his beginning feat) so that they were delivering +3 or more on Aid Another checks. Finally, with her high Int my character was kind of the defacto "skills monkey" because her other trait delivered her Stealth as a class skill and she had a skill focus bonus feat in Perception along with the bonus that comes from taking an owl.

The other character was a halfling Warpriest (Divine Commander)/Hunter PC. He took a trait to deliver +4 on Aid Another checks and for the first 5 levels, since his melee attacks with the slingstaff weren't really great, any time he'd get in melee on his Wolf mount he'd deliver Aid Another to ensure the AC hit. If the AC hit, good chance it would Trip, which in turn gives me back the +4 to hit I gave him with my melee attack as an AoO.

So I guess I'd answer the OP by saying I use it a lot, but tend to ONLY use it in cases where it amounts to more than the base +2, and with a PC only if the character has a reliable person/creature they can consistently aid.

[gnoams]

At level 1 or 2, all the time. After that, never.

[Lucy_Valentine]

At its most basic level I've only used it for skill checks, though to be fair I do that a lot - raising social skills so you can reliably hit ten is a thing. In combat I think giving up a standard action to raise someone else's attempt by 10% is pretty niche, to put it mildly. Is there really nothing better I could be doing? Are my own attacks totally ineffective? So far the answers are "yes", and "no", respectively.

But then, I've never played a bodyguard build, which is something I've been meaning to do for a while. Reach + combat reflexes is theoretically good on its own, so adding bodyguard and one trait (that will also help skill checks) is not that big a deal.
Class is a bit of an issue though. Ideally I'd want arcane casting and Long Arm, with 3/4 bab or better. Bloodrager doesn't really appeal, so maybe the vigilante with 2/3 casting and the wizard list.

Mind you, the idea that everyone in the world who is good at this one useful fighting technique were all either halflings or raised by halflings does make me gag a bit.

[*Thelith]

Only for skill checks...
Breaking down a door, convincing the town guards we are not evil... That's about it.

[Cavall]

A ton. Even without investment, helping an ally with the best attack to gain a bonus to hit could overcome a great deal of defense.

With minor investment, you can boost allies ac for a full round against all attacks with an immediate action.

As it can be used to help people with saves as well, it could save a teammate.

[Oli Ironbar]

Always as a last best alternative. I’ve GM’d with a few new players who would skip their turn because they can’t bypass DR but after a while they caught on.

Role playing good cop / bad cop with intimidate is also really, really fun.

[MrCharisma]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Mind you, the idea that everyone in the world who is good at this one useful fighting technique were all either halflings or raised by halflings does make me gag a bit.

I agree with you.

I do think though that if this is a problem you can take the nonhalfling version of the Helpful trait. It's only 1 less than the halfling, so it's only different 1/20 of your aid another attempts.

I'm contemplating it late level for my Bloodrager. With no traits (standard +2 to aid), Arcane Strike and Gloves of Arcane Striking (another +4 to aid) and a +1 Benevolent Bloodthirsty Breastplate (another +4 to aid) I'll be able to give +10 to an ally's AC. Also I have a Brawler dip so I'll Flex into Bodyguard if any enemies get past me to my squishy allies.

So you can do it without being a Halfling, it just tends to come online later.

[VoodistMonk]

I like Alchemist VMC Cavalier, personally...

Inspired/Internal Alchemist can take Investigator Talents, giving you Effortless Aid. Action economy is no longer a problem for you to use Aid Another.

You can take the Spell Knowledge Discovery, Arcane Strike, and use the Gloves of Arcane Striking.

VMC Cavalier for Order of the Dragon to get a scaling bonus via Aid Allies.

Hand out Harrying Partners with Tactician, or Rings of Tactical Precision (which you could craft yourself)...

I don't think there is any way to possibly invest more into Aid Another, or capitalize on it, than this particular combination. And this produces a completely playable character 1-20.

I haven't been able to get Effortless Aid, Aid Allies, and Arcane Strike/Gloves of Arcane Striking legit any other way.

[Tim Emrick]

For skill checks, all the time. Especially with social skills, the people I play with like to dogpile on all the aids we can manage! (The greatly increased difficulty of aiding another in 2E is one of the biggest adjustments we've had to make between editions.)

For attacks, I've very rarely seen it used, because all the ways to do it faster than a standard action seem to be very niche.

For AC, the Bodyguard feat is very useful. I have a cavalier with a bodyguard archetype axebeak mount [through a PFS boon] that makes frequent use of Bodyguard with its 10-foot reach. I also have a magus who has picked up Bodyguard plus Benevolent Armor, to increase the effectiveness of her bodyguarding (though I have yet to play her yet since acquiring that combo).

[Dox of the ParaDox twins]

I can't say I've ever used aid another in any of my games I've been a player in and I've only seen my players use it once to break down a door. I prefer to do more proactive things

[amethal]

My halfling kineticist character used it sometimes at low level.

With a physical blast, until he could get Precise Shot it was a waste of time firing into melee against opponents with high AC and his melee damage was derisory. So sometimes he'd rush blindly into melee and use aid another to help out.

When that happened, intelligent opponents would normally not bother attacking him, although there was an unfortunate incident against a raging half-orc barbarian ….

[Mark Hoover 330]

When do you not allow Aid Another on skill checks? I mean, there's obvious ones like Climb; you can't occupy the same space with a fellow character and help them put their hands where they need to be on a cliff face. But what about Knowledge checks?

In combat knowledge checks to ID monsters can't be aided in my games, except by a Familiar. However outside of combat, Aid Another comes up on Knowledge checks all the time.

One of my games deals with evil cults and undead. All four PCs have at least a couple ranks in Knowledge: Religion now. I delivered an obscure unholy symbol and told the players it would be difficult to ID, but they asked if they could Aid Another to the Wizard who has the skill maxed. I said yes, following a previously set precedent and between Aid Another and a Guidance spell on the Wizard he ended up with a 31 on the check.

So, is there a point at which Aid Another shouldn't be allowed?

[Cavall]

Climb? You can totally aid another.

Give them a boost, give them a hand up when you reach the top.

"I got no handholds. You see anything?"

"Yeah. Just step your foot out about half a step. Theres a ledge. You can adjust from there and lift up"

Climb totally works.

[VoodistMonk]

Cavall wrote:

Climb? You can totally aid another.

Give them a boost, give them a hand up when you reach the top.

"I got no handholds. You see anything?"

"Yeah. Just step your foot out about half a step. Theres a ledge. You can adjust from there and lift up"

Climb totally works.

Never climb alone.

As soon as you rope up, you say on belay... that is said out loud to the people with you... because saying it out loud to yourself is pointless... and there SHOULD be others around to hear it... because you never climb alone...

[Dragon78]

Rarely in combat but very often with skill checks.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Ok, geez, I get it; Climb is a bad example! Still the question remains - is there a point at which Aid Another should be restricted?

Doing the math, because of a Trait taken by the monk in my game, three PCs can hand out a +7 on Aid Another bonuses for Knowledge: Religion. There's a Wizard 5 in the game with Knowledge: Religion +13. Then he also has an Improved Familiar (Pyrausta) that speaks Draconic, for another potential Aid Another bonus. Finally, the party pays well to employ a Cleric 3 NPC who is with them on the outskirts of combat for buffs or healing; said Cleric ALSO has this skill for potential Aid Another.

Routinely, if I call for a Knowledge: Religion check, the final result is so high I may as well just hand the players my game notes. If just half the party successfully aids AND the Cleric they employ casts Guidance, that's an average roll of 30. Looking on the suggested DCs for Knowledge: Religion, ID'ing an obscure deity's symbol or clergy member is a DC 20, so on their AVERAGE check they've got that beat by 10.

And it's not just Knowledge: Religion too. This surprisingly comes up with almost all party members qualifying for any non-trained skill, Handle Animal, and Spellcraft. Half the party has Knowledge: Arcana, Local, and Nature as well. If I want to stump the PCs on a piece of info their characters don't know about, I'll have to pick something from another plane or deep in a dungeon.

Ironic that this group explores a megadungeon with demonic themes as a major feature of the campaign...

[gnoams]

In general, when I GM, it's up to the player to convince me how their aid helps. Usually it's obvious, but if they can't say how they're assisting, they can't assist.

I don't allow aid on knowledge checks to recall information, only on knowledge checks made as part of research. I also don't allow aid on sense motive, or perception.

I limit the number of people who can aid depending on what makes sense. 6 people talking over one another trying to convince someone with diplomacy is going to be detrimental to the attempt. On the other hand 6 people shouting at one person is great for intimidation.

[Mudfoot]

Aid another for knowledge checks should take longer as people argue amongst themselves. You might also keep track of the failures and reserve the right to obfuscate the answer with some incorrect supplementary information. So to ID the obscure clergy member they might say that it's Friar Balsam from the church of Abadar in Cassomir (true) and he's the chief cashier in the bank there (false). Of course you need some secret rolls going on.

An untrained knowledge check can't be used to Aid Another if the DC is over 20 because "you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone". Not that helps in Mark's case above.

The problem is that one only need get a 10 to aid, which is trivial with a little investment and doesn't scale.

[VoodistMonk]

Kobolds with Shoulder to Shoulder only have to hit an AC 9.

There's a trait that gives you a +1 or maybe even a +2 to hit the AC to Aid, too.

[yukongil]

I'd only allow Aid Another on knowledge checks with some downtime and research.

A knowledge check IMO is a test to see if you know a bit of information right then, or not something you can really help someone with in the moment.

also things like Disable Device on certain types of traps or locks, as well as some Diplomacy or Bluff checks depending on the situation (five people yelling out you tends to be confusing and alarming more than diplomatic)

so in most cases it really depends on the nature of the test instead of just the skill in question.

[Mark Hoover 330]

As a GM, the Aid Another mechanic hoists me by my own petard. I want and actively encourage all my players to participate in scenes in some way. I've houseruled that, if you can justify to me how it helps, you can sometimes use OTHER skills to provide and Aid Another bonus to an action than the one currently employed.

An example would be a cleric using Knowledge: Engineering to explain what they think are the inner workings of a trap. The rogue noticed the trap and wants to use Disable Device to remove it, and having a suspicion that it has to do with wires and tension the cleric makes a Knowledge check to help. If successful, their Knowledge check adds +1 minute to the 1d4 it takes for the rogue to disable the trap, but they also add +2 on the check.

What I'm trying to avoid are scenes where one player is doing everything (the party "face" doing all the talking, the Disable Device PC unlocking all the doors, and so on) while the other players sit and play on their phones, tangent off about a TV show, and so on.

Unfortunately, the downside is that when ALL the players manage to add in a successful Aid Another bonus, the numbers add up quick.

The moral of the story is, be careful what you wish for...

[Sysryke]

At the risk of making more work for you as GM Mark, the solution may be to provide more obstacles or hazards for the characters to have to deal with, at least some of the time. The idea being, that there will be times when it's just not feasible for everyone to pile on Aid Another, because they're busy dealing with other problems.

You could also try arbitrating some form of diminishing rate of return. For those who have invested to get bigger Aid bonuses, they still apply, but each successive add on gives one less than the previous bonus. And, as those above have said, there are all of the case by case considerations of what is and isn't practical.

At the risk of over complicating the mechanics, using the disable device bit as an example, where delicate mechanisms or deft skill is required the primary skill checker can/should direct the action to an extent. Either the main checker, or his aides may need to make additional relevant saves or ability checks to make sure they don't fumble or botch their assistance. Failure wouldn't necessarily prevent the aide, but could ratchet the main skill check's DC. For a complicated mechanism, say an aid has to provide steady pressure on a lever mechanism while the rouge disables the primary apparatus. That character might need to make a check to make sure they don't stumble, or press with too much force. Maybe more complicated than it's worth, just an idea so that you don't have to feel like your DC's are pointless.