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Lemartes wrote:
zook1shoe wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Would you want to mention New Thassilonian Magic as a way to change the power/versatility levels...

Where is this? In the comic books? I can't find this on AoN or d20pfsrd.

That cleric swap is way super powered. Might be good for an NPC villain.

If you click the link it will tell you paths of the righteous. Page 23.

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Long story short if you're trying to make a DBZ character this game is a poor choice.

Also Mr Hercule Satan is not a joke he was the G+# d&&n champion of the world, you leave him alone.

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Being so angry you could fly was stupid in the first place. There. I said it.

And justifying system abuse by saying not doing it is stopping you from roleplaying is even worse.

Unchained barbarian is great, and was made for everyone playing tired of system abuse and clunky mechanics.

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For what it's worth I think the idea of rage cycling being played off as a great RP opportunity is the biggest lie in this entire thread.

It's supposed to be rage, as in uncontrollable anger. Not a guy popping uppers and downers every other round.

It's pure system abuse. Nothing more. There is nothing stopping someone from having the same RP for unchained other than said system abuse.

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Lucy_Valentine wrote:

"In addition it leads the way in stealing OTHER peoples summons and making them your own. "

How do you do that bit?

With the feat tattoo conversion. You touch the summoned creature, make it a tattoo, then later on roll to have control over it.

Works great when used to take the creature away, you kill the summoner and theres no roll to contest it. Even at once a day this is a great way to steal summons from a battle.

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I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."

And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.

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Hey let's actually talk about the perfumer. I think they are getting shortchanged here.

1. Bomb damage is every round in the area. That means anyone in the area is now subject to concentration checks for constant damage. That's int+1d4 bomb damage /2 +10 + spell level. You're GOING to eff up some casters that way. Plus while it doesnt do direct damage you can hit someone directly WITH it and add on bomb discoveries. So tanglefoot bomb one of them and then fast bomb stack on some deadly effects, all of which requires that concentration check. Continuous damage is normally a level 10 ability. You get it at 1.

2. The new mutagen is a buff to charisma bluff and diplomacy that stacks and can be used on anyone. This means not getting into fights as the bards and rogues just convince the others to give you what you want. That's still winning.

3. Your buffs can be used multiple times per use. So Haste is actually useful again. As well as any personal spell can now be handed out FOUR TIMES to party members... in fact ANY target spell can be handed out FOUR TIMES.

4 times displacement. 4 times invisibilty. 4 times fly. 4 times any spell with a target or targets.

And the cost? Not a damn thing. You gain 4 times the spell buffing power and you lose nothing for it since it takes away a mutagen buff to a mutagen you dont get.

Perfumer is dope...

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Do go on. I 100% see no backing of your statement, but I would love to hear how you got there.

Are you saying that if a 6th level barbarian rages at 3 hp and gets a maximum of 98 he somehow heals 12 out of nowhere? And can just rage cycle up to full?

Because, and again this is just me and the rules here, but no.

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Ryan is correct.

You're dropping in HP per hit die and dropping the entire con bonus off the other end as a threshold.

So you're suddenly taking more damage and at the same time the death threshold gets 4 points (not 2) closer.

Hes shown clearly how at level 3 and up it's a death sentence. Compared to unchained where it's a temp hp bonus and has no bearing on negatives at all.

Even if it was a "small range" (it isnt) it's an inherent flaw and unchained fixed it.

Can you take more damage before hitting negatives with a barbarian while raging? Yes. Absolutely.
Are you likely to TAKE more damage due to AC penalties and die once you hit negatives? Yes. Absolutely.

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No that's dishonest to look at it that way. The whole party can revive a fallen member in an unchained barbarian or any other class. (Life link oracles excepting)

You simply dont get that chance with a barbarian. Losing your con bonus for threshold and all the hp that buffed you to that point simply means that barbarian is dead. No stabilize or channel or cure wounds saves them. They drop they drop for good. It's an inherent flaw in the class that already suffers AC issues, so they have to be babied and minded more than many other martials to keep from hitting negatives.

Unchained is simply more functional and simpler in its design. It's like someone putting up a cover over a 2 meter hole in the death star.

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Faithful Wanderer
Power -1 Versatility-1
You are now a focused planar attacker. More skills (hey perception!) and "smites" are more like favoured enemy, but the focus is narrow.
In a planar based game this is +1 in both columns at the very least; otherwise you won't be as useful.

Forest Preserver
Power 0 Versatility-1
This is best used with druids (or other plant/animal summoners) in a group as you can help with summoning buffs so long as a tree is around. Given the dependacy on wilderness, a tree should always be around. In this case this archetype is rather potent. Otherwise it simply falls flat with a need to consistently be in the forest.

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Switch that candle out!

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More pally stuff. I would rather we used the official names than made up srd names.


Divine Hunter
Power 0 Versatility +1
Archery based Paladins that can make the whole group into archers. One thing to note is the ability to expend smites to gain and share archery feats with a party... but it doesnt have to be against evil targets. If this was gained earlier this would be a +2 versatility ability.

Dusk Knight
Power -1 Versatility 0
You gain stealth but keep the armour penalty until 8th. You lose divine bond. You gain dark vision to stack upon your dark vision.... If we play pretend that you start at mid levels some decent fun could be had. The only thing this is best for is a lawful good rogue dip because smite adds concealment... but not any damage.

(Iomedaen Enforcer) Enforcer

Power 0 Versatility 0
While it's been noted already that smiting chaos means accidently smiting good, this archetype just trades the words evil away for chaos for the class. The alterations arent enough to change the numbers. In a fey heavy game this would be a stronger archetype.

(Iroran Paladin) enlightened Paladin
Power +1 Versatility +2
You lose detect evil to detect Ki. Kind of useless. You'll also lose channels. Not a huge loss. You gain free skills, free feats, a ki poolsmites that work on anyone and a paladin code you can make up yourself. Your smites even boost versus spells of your target, you retain saves and make reroll abilities rips for abuse. Almost a perfect archetype do long as you can boost that AC up.

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Here's what I think.

I shouldn't have to look up Neutonian Fluids to play f##&ing DnD

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Paladin stuff


Banishing warden Paladin

Power 0 versatility -1
Trading undead away for evil outsiders is not ideal, but the aura of justice alteration is not going to come up very often with so few uses of Banishing smite. Mercy would be better kept. If in a campaign heavy into devils or demons this would be quite a lot better.

Champion of the Cascade
Power -1 Versatility -1
Moses in paladin form but without a divine bond or divine health and a lot more acrobatic as a trade off. Nifty idea poor trade offs.

Chaos Knight (Ganzi only)
Power -2 Versatility -1
Give random blessings to friends that you have no control over but only of they are under some sort of mind effect spell. This is some sort of chaos user to enforce the law with abilities that will rarely come up and you have no control over when they do. Thematically and systematically skippable.

Chosen One
Power -1 Versatility +2
As a dip Power -2 Versatility -1
Lose raw power from divine bond to gain a host of abilities that a familiar can use, including helping with lay on hands with mercies included. Due to delayed smite and divine grace, horrible dip choice.

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Pretty sure we could tell what the autocorrect was.


Tortured Crusader Paladin
Power 0 Versatility 0
This archetype trades away group benefits for focused self benefits. More skills, more smites, Wisdom over Charisma. Allies can not benefit from auras or lay on hands.
Nothing prevents a paladin from becoming an Oradin and healing himself, and in fact this class comes with built in contingencies, making it actually better at the job as it can heal while paralyzed or unconscious, things that would kill an Oradin.

This is an amazing RP archetype that allows personal flexibility and power for the trade off of less group buffing. Strictly every trade seems fair and balanced to make the Paladin itself better for the Paladin. Notes: no divine grace and this is the only archetype to my knowledge to be written to alter the same power, as lay on hands is altered twice.

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I like how when water is solid it's difficult terrain but somehow as a liquid oh no it's not hard at all.

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Oh. It's becoming one of these types of threads again. Hooo...ray..

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9 years 2 months. Mazel tov. It's a 4th grader.

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All the classes are 100% realistic. Just that magic isnt real. If it was, what it could do is realistic enough.

I mean seriously though, the ranger is shooting 7 arrows in 6 seconds. Then took feats to make AOO with them too.

The gunslinger is reloading a blackpowder musket in 6 seconds.

The ranger is somehow reacting in initiative faster in the desert or arctic than on a cobbled street.

The barbarian somehow gets the ability to take an arrow to the face and think "that should hurt but I'm really angry"

A rogue can stab you in the gut 5 times and do less damage than when he says "hey wizard stand behind this guy and look menacing" first.

"Realism". Over rated.

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Additionally power attack on a halfling means getting 15 in the stat to qualify. Not the best use of points.

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strayshift wrote:
Wonderstell, I pretty much wrote the original Court Bard description and the only thing I would add is that the ability to make opponents flat-footed can decide encounters making it easily one of the most powerful performances. It provides a tactical option to the debuff which can make your enchantment save dcs silly, increase your front-liners ac and give them some D.R. and yes, whilst language dependant you can always fall back on buffing spells like Heroism and Haste for some opponents. On top of that you can have amazing diplomacy/sense motive/other social skills (level buff plus versatile performance). In short it is an amazing archetype, possibly near over-powered.

I'm also a huge fan of this archetype. Theres some creatures you can work around that would normally be immune but the fact most of the game has no save vs a massive debuff, not to mention making it a rogues wet dream later on... it's a great concept for an "anti bard" and a well executed concept at that

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Blossoming cleric

Power +1
Versatile 0

Tired of wasting page space convincing someone I never needed to convince. I made my case.

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Doing something that used to be an ok meh ability that's been changed to be the focus of the class with multiple applications and uses ceases to be a meh ability.

Again I wrote 2 posts on how it can be used more effectively from weapon buffs armour buffs versatile buffs debuffs and straight up AOE damage as a move action for well over a dozen uses at even the lowest levels.

It has ceased to be weak. It became strong. And since standard spells per day are retained longer, the class over all is more powerful. Therefore, power goes up.

Let's make it simple.

When looking at cleric and asked what it does you would say "9th level spells and channels energy"

This does the latter better and keeps the former around longer because of it.

No one says"they are the class with medium armour proficiency "

The main features are bettered. Domain spell loss excepting. Which given the list of domain spells are chosen for you, isn't that big a loss. The domain powers remain.

I am patently and unambiguously saying this is an upgrade. It's just one that requires imagination to use. Which is why I gave 2 posts of examples of how it can be.

If all you use it for is standard channels I would agree it's just ok. If you invest in feats to boost a pool that's 4x bigger than any other cleric you get 4x the payout. So it's better.

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It's also very hard to make 2 posts about why their channeling is actually awesome and be told "but channeling is pretty crap." I don't find that to be a great way to approach archetypes is to look at how the ability used to be before the archetype. It is no longer applicable.

I maintain my rating on blossoming light, having seen 2 in actual game play for a total of 30+ sessions.

They are powerful due to keeping their spells longer throughout the day, they can play around with feats rarely taken but overly powerful for them to take but lose a lot of melee options.

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I read the OP. I found it needlessly complicated and said so, as we were asked for our opinion.
Just because people disagree (read: everyone who gave an opinion on it so far) doesnt mean it wasnt read. People just don't like it.

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You heal at touch range. When you need to heal don't be too far away.

You cast and dont want to make concentration attempts or take attacks. Don't be too close.

Reach cleric is a great fit for both of these.

Get a long spear.

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gnoams wrote:

Blossoming light cleric:

Power +1, Versatility -1
This archetype is built for one thing. It gives the most uses of channel energy per day and greatly expands your list of enemies you can harm with channel energy making it the best channeler in the game. You will want to max charisma over wisdom, making offensive spells not worth using, but throw in the purifying channel feat and you can be healing and harming at the same time all day long. The biggest downside is that you lose armor and gain nothing to replace it in the way of defenses. Not recommended for dipping as the penalties are front loaded and the benefits build over levels.

I disagree with this assessment. This is in fact not built for one thing only. It is in fact one of the best ways to enjoy something rarely invested in. Channel feats.

Feats like blessing weapons and equipments. Having access to 15+ channels at even the lowest levels of the game means you can on the fly add holy or bane or ghost touch. With middle to mid high levels one could affect multiple party members with more than one effect at a time and still have over a dozen channels a day.

Add in other feats like adding in channel variance to allow variant channel powers on the fly.

All of this uses a massive pool that doesnt touch your spells.

Vastly more versatile than it looks at first glance.

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OP seems to be happy with the option chosen. We should leave at that unless they come back and ask for more.

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Most power gamers I have found that are actively trying to find language loopholes and meta game or fudge rolls are pretty simple to deal with.

Tell them the game you created doesn't require it. That they can make a character without needing to resort to such tactics. That the campaign you have made doesn't need dirty tricks and the like to play let alone enjoy. I've found this helps.



Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Put caps on bonuses, make up some arbitrary total-b.s. rule like "Teamwork Feats never work unless you have allies that also have that feat

EYEROLL. Nice troll bait.

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It would be simpler to use the sunder action on the ring.
I dont see an issue with just gaining it back again on your turn as a free action, and I agree it's not really coming up enough to worry about it.

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"A raging song cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the skald is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action each round to maintain it."

However, guarded life seems to act before this.

"Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage. If the barbarian is at negative hit points due to lethal damage, she immediately stabilizes."

Should be fine.

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Roll with It! is a great feat. It can save your life at the cost of a turn. I'd look into it for sure. That being said your current line up of feats is rather full. You'll have to make that call if it's worth it to you.

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It's a scary thing that this stewed for a day under a year exactly, only to be misquoted out of context.

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I 100% agree if superman was just human yeah the only way to scale it would make the Batman lesser BAB.

And I also agree with the statement this thread agrees with it, since otherwise he must be a race with much (MUCH) more RP.

Superman is so far beyond the scope of numbers as to not bother with numbers. In fact all you've got is strength which while it gives the ability to lift something... didnt cover the con needed to do it for 5 straight days. Or the fact he could have kept going.

Dave is correct that if we are saying Superman is human RP level, the only way to scale back would be BAB.

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So we arent even going to discuss the idea that Albert's dog take the star stone test?

Messed up.

I would have converted.

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It's ok it's the one time I actually did.

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You lose one claw attack. The arm is held. Don't overcomplicate it.

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I agree it's not keeping on topic. I also allow bad guys to escape so long as it doesn't do it in a way that cheapens the enjoyment of the players, for what it's worth. Key is it can't just seem cheap.

As for the OP I think between Sunder disarm winds and trips that's all you'll need to make an archer unhappy.

I'd also like to add in one more. Grapple. Bows need 2 hands. Grapple occupies a hand. No hand? No bow.

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Well people shouldn't judge a class by the dice rolled anyways.

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Agénor wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Being in a disc is hardly involuntary.
Being isn't an action.

I've no idea what this means. But climbing on to a disc is both voluntary and an action. I find most of your arguments a little disingenuous.

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Well your trait for katana proficiency is a waste. You're a samurai. You get that.

That's a start.

While you could say it's a trap to not wear armour, adding your dex int and charisma to do so. If you focus in these with maxed dex and a 16 in each of the others, you could get a pretty respectful ac. With some party spell help, hitting 30s isnt hard at all. Save you some cash on shields and armour. Mage armour alone should do you well enough. Just a thought there.

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Temperans wrote:

Okay so just for comparison, Telekinetic Charge is a standard action, the ally can move more than their move speed, and can get an extra attack (as an imidiate action).

Floating Disk is a standard action to create, the ally would have to move at the caster's speed (usually 30ft), the caster would most likely have to put himself in danger.

Floating Disk is definetly the more versatile of the 2 spells, and the gimmick would add even more versatility.

So RAW there appears to be no negatives, and the whole thing probably functions as if you were being driven in a cart.

Some possible solutions might be: Using acrobatics check to keep balance when attacking/moving, similar to "moving through narrow areas"; The movement provokes AoO as normal; The character getting a penalty on ranged attack rolls similar to mounted archery.

Also using a mount is either a move (the animal is frightened by combat/not combat trained) or free action. The 1 melee attack rule is stated to be based on "the horse acts with you, not before you"; so any other motion would give a melee a full-attack. Ranged weapons can always attack, but with either a -4 (1 attack) or a -8 (full-attack).

My point is charging a move action seems wrong, and giving some penalty would probably work better.

If you have to use a level 4 spell with more action investment to compare to a level one spell with am admitted no downsides already... don't you think charging a move action is the exact opposite of wrong?

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I'll send you a PM that isn't an unhelpful "don't play one."

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Fighters have the benefit of having a lot of feats for options to branch down multiple paths. They enjoy a freedom few other classes do this way.

If anything is underrated about fighters it has to be that. Their ability to sample from more than one cup is unparrelled.

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How about letting people enjoy things instead of crapping on what they like, AVR? Not everyone has the same tastes as you, or wants the same things out of the game.

To the OP, you would have to have the feature to gain extra of it, so sadly this one will never get the chance. Willuwontu is correct.

Sometimes when coding you miss things. This would be one of them I guess.

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I'll make it even clearer.

You got sunder rolls right? Hardness hp all that?
Then you got straight break DC.

So theres already a system in place for breaking things without sundering over and over. All or nothing rolls. Breaks or doesn't.

Adapt that concept. Glass (well, crystal isn't it?) Should just be a DC like...27 roll. Hit that note and crack some crystal. Why 27? I dunno. Why not.

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I think foresight should play a big part here.

"All actions have consequences, even inaction. A ripple of forgiveness causes waves of redemption. Weigh your actions carefully."

I like the ripple part for this one.

Also for redemption...

"Peaceful words are measured best by peaceful actions. It is not enough to speak of peace, one must strive for it."

This seems to fit the concept of doing something rather than saying you wont be bad anymore.

And for kindness?

"It is not an easy to walk back down a path one has filled with thorns. Help those who stumble on this path, for at least they are willing to walk it."

This speaks about realizing that it isn't easy to go from evil to good, and patience and willingness to help them.

I hope these help. Or give some idea where to go.

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Spell kenning is likely the second best ability in the game aside from pally saves. Certainly at low levels. It is simply incredible.

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