My intent seems to have been misunderstood by some posters, probably due to me not voicing it concretely enough:
I do not look for the standard tier-lists that are indeed floating around in the dozens.
Nor did I want to just list a roundabout "yeah,yeah casters at top, then 3/4, then martial etc. TADA!"-list.
The list I'd like us to create is - as described in the OP - specifically listing the strong and weak parts of the respective class. Ideally giving the reasoning behind the selected tiers for different parts of that class.
What Temeryn suggested is generally what I had in mind.
edit:@Rub-Eta could you share your experience (even on just one class)? I am totally on board that different people will have different play-experiences and different opinions.
On the other hand I think it is rather easy to see that the fighter would rate higher in the combat-tier, than he would in the utility-tier for example. (of course he could put everything into a high int, and use feats to become more utility focused, though that would imho be a rather rare build).
Disclaimer: English is NOT my first language, may contain grievous errors.
A comprehensive Class-Tier List?!
I'd like to have one :)
Though I am not the most mechanics-minded player/gm out there, I find mechanics quite important and an enjoyable part of the game. I – as many others – have the feeling that some classes simply do better than others in the grand scheme of things.
So I'd like there to be a resource analyzing this “apparent” phenomenon. This would have to be the first step to heal parts of the class-tier slope :)
I stumbled over the concept of a class's floor-performance and it's ceiling-performance in a forum-post lately (to be honest I don't know which one, or if it even has been on the Paizo-boards... but: credits to you!).
The floor- and ceiling-performance shows just how much system-mastery affects the performance of said class.
I'd like to include this concept, because it helps (new) players, who are then able to choose a class with a high floor-perfomance. And it may help gms (and maybe designers?) to raise the floor- (and/or ceiling-) performance of the low tiers.
This would also be a help in the recurring discussions where build-mastery is often brought up as “evidence” that a class can perform (which may well be true – but not for everyone or only with very specific builds).
I think the focus should be on Paizo's published classes, though I see no reason why 3pp classes should be excluded from this list.
I suggest we use the following format for the classes:
Class/Archetype
Combat TierThis obviously rates the combat performance of the class.
-DefensiveHow hard is it to damage the class? Does it have many ways to avoid HP-damage? Does it have a high AC, good saves etc.? Does it gain Special abilities that help it devensively? Does it simply have tons of HP?
-Floor-Tier:
-Ceiling-Tier:
-OffensiveHow much damage does the class? How consistently can it do this (¾ or full bab for example)? Can it target various things like HP, the saves (and which of them), attribute-scores, etc.?
-Floor-Tier:
-Ceiling-Tier:
Utility TierHow well does this class function as a general problem-solver? Does it have many skillpoints? Does it have access to a good array of class-skills, to a many of them? Does it have other abilities for problem-solving, i.e. spells or class-abilities?
-Floor-Tier:
-Ceiling-Tier:
I will likely have missed tons of things in this opening post, so please post them at your leisure!
As we gather content for this list (to say: IF we do that, maybe we just discuss the whole time, heh.) I'll make a new thread with said content or maybe it would warrant a google-doc?!
Finally, killing a PC is trivial for a GM. Simply let a dragon fly by and eat him. Yawn... Letting him desperately fight on the brink to death and finally succeed is a completely different beast - more challenging for the GM and more fun for the player.
I find this sentence very important. That's what we sign up for: the heroics. The feeling when the group succeeds against all odds. Bloody and beaten up, but alive and satisfied that they took a hard fight and won.
I, for one, can only really feel this, only really enjoy such situations in a game if I know that it is *real*.
If I know my GM is pulling his punches, has bosses moving on when they should finish a threat, even when he fudges dice - then the magic is lost for me.
It's exactly as SheepishEidolon says: It's trivial to GM-fiat any character to death which is bad when it's done.
But in my opinion it's equally trivial and bad to GM-Fiat a PC who should have died to live on.
After gleefully reading the Tosculi-pdf, I lost my battle vs myself and bought Southlands. First impression: excellent! But I have maybe read 10% as of now!
Thanks for this great supplement!
Here's hoping we'll see more of Midgards as of yet unexplored regions in the future!
Distinct Drill
At 1st level a fighter chooses two additional skills as class skills. In addition a fighter chooses either Will or Reflex saves. The fighter gains a good save progression for the chosen save type.
Vicissitude
Upon reaching 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter (6th, 9th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new feat in place of a feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level. (The Bonus Feat entry no longer has the addendum of changing bonus feats)
Capability
Starting at 4th level a fighter can ignore one of the prerequisites for any feat he chooses. Every six levels thereafter he may ignore an additional prerequisite for any feat he chooses. Racial prerequisites may not be ignored by Capability. Note that some feats may be of no use, even though the fighter would be able to choose them.
Here's a little Fighter variant I threw together.
The goal was to not change the fighter too much, but still give him greater flexibility outside of (and maybe for) combat.
Commentary on the variant for those interested ;):
"Standard": 4+Int skill points, another good progression save choosable by the fighter, and 2 additional choosable class skills.
Capability in combination with Vicissitude technically gives the fighter scaling for some, but not all feats.
The Vicissitude feat-changing was stolen from the fighter's bonus feat entry, so he only get's it every 3rd level, because it is now possible to change a prerequisite feat if you still "meet" the prereq via Capability.
This frees up feats for either combat purposes OR out of combat uses, and makes it easier to qualify for them.
To the thing with the one bad save, and the dissent on what a second good save for fighters could be:
Why not make it customizable? Each fighter picks his 2 good saves. Get the fluff you want, match your saves to it.
I also strongly agree that the fighter could do with at least 4 skill points per level. Also add 2 additional class skills that each fighter can choose.
Maybe because musclepower increases only as the square of length whereas bodymass increases as the cube of length? So, yes Halflings can carry more like you would think, just like ants.
I can't for any reason see why he needs to take down the character?
just talk to him about his mistakes in building the druid and try to make the game fun for everyone.
The build is shining if your group fights only a small group of enemies or if the fights are short. If they have to go through many smaller challenges in a row he shines...not so much, and others will get their spotlight.
No need to "take down" anyone. A GM always wins if he wants to, no need to ruin your game that way, though.
I'm firmly in the "no 2nd edition pf"-camp.
I know it would alienate me at this point.
I think it would alienate a lot of other pf-customers.
So what would paizo gain? What would the fans gain?
I honestly can't see a reason for a 2nd ed. Not from either perspective...
以不变应万变
we should cope with changes by remaining unchanged
Well now, if you want to kill the barbarian no matter the cost (and I mean that quite literally), I think poison has it's merits. Especially so, if, as the OP conceded, our rogue gets a surprise round.
Warning: Ideally I assume the rogue gets the drop on the barbarian, but he could always just have his poison already applied to his (efficient-quivered)arrows. I don't know of a rule that the poison would denaturate.
I'll take 12th lvl, 20 point-buy as a basis for this example.
STR
A "typical" B will max Str, or at least go for 16+2 racial, give str another +2 for lvls and we arrive at an unmodified str of 20.
DEX
Let's slap on 15 and get +1 from lvl = 16
CON
Leaves 16 for Con
INT
Dump for 7
WIS
11 to not ruin the Will-save
CHA
Dump for 7
------------
At lvl 12 you could either get a belt of +2 for 2 ability scores
or for one +4. To make the B be more resistant vs poison let's assume the +2/+2 (as I'd wager, a B wouldn't normally get nothing for Str)
Rage is already greater at lvl 12 so another +6/+6 to Str and Con
------------
Raging: (nonraging)
Str 28 (22)
Dex 16
Con 24 (18)
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 7
------------
Base Fort-save 8
Cloak of Resistance +4
Con +7
Trait +1
= Fort 20 raging (17 nonraging)
------------
AC
10
+4 Mithril Breastplate 10
Dex +3
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Deflection +2
= AC 25 raging (27 nonraging)
------------
Rogue goes Full-Dex, a bit Con to live longer and Cha cause rogues are dashing ;) Poisoner Archetype as not to poison himself by accident.
Str 8
Dex 18 +2 racial +2 lvl-up +4 belt
Con 13 +1 lvl-up
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 12
Str 8
Dex 26
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 12
------------
BAB 9/4
Dex +8
Longbow +3
weapon focus +1
Pointblank Shot +1
Rapid Shot -2
Manyshot
Boots of Speed
=Full Attack: 20/20/20/20/15
------------
Take Swift Poisoning (so your preparation doesn't take ages), Deadly Cocktail (2 doses of poison on one arrow, DC+2 frequeny +50%)
Every dose of poison ups the DC by +2, buy or craft 12 (24) doses of Deathblade poison (Deathblade, injury 20, 1/rd. for 6 rds., 1d3 Con, 2 saves, 1,800 gp a piece)
So:
1 arrow hit: DC 22
2 arrow hit: DC 26
3 arrow hit: DC 30
4 arrow hit: DC 34
5 arrow hit: DC 38
------------
Nonraging B
We hit the B with 7-up (picture that) so that's a 65% chance for our "good" attacks, 4*65%= 2,6
"bad" attack hits 40% of the time= 0,4
let's assume 2 hits or 3 hits.
2hits save DC: 26, 3hits save DC: 30
Fort-save 17
B makes 2hit-save with 55% chance of success
B makes 3hit-save with 35% chance of success
------------
Raging B
We hit the B with 5-up so that's a 75% chance for our "good" attacks, 4*75%= 3
"bad" attack hits 50% of the time= 0,5
let's assume between 3 or 4 hits.
3hits save DC: 30, 4hits save DC: 34
Fort-save 20
B makes 3hit-save with 50% chance of success
B makes 4hit-save with 30% chance of success
------------
If the Barbarian Counterattack
If he blows his save he'll get 1d3 Con damage which will make it harder to make the save on future rounds. 2hits will make this 9 possible rds, 3hits will make it 12 rds and 4hits will make it 15 rds.
If we won Initiative or got the drop on him we'll have another round to apply more poison on a weakened B if we survive his counterattack (I'm too lazy to do that now, maybe use the Rogue-Talents "Resiliency" or less ideally "Another Day" ).
Conclusion: If we blow our money on poison we get a pretty good chance of killing the Barbarian (even if he may kill us before he bites it).
Let's just draw a circle with black chalk and summon the damn thing!
Force it into the world, draw it forth with shackles forged from our pure mental strength! Mwahahaha!
Hello fellow RPG dudes and dudesses!
Inspiration just struck me and I threw together a little feat-tree for the monk. English is not my native language so I apologize ahead of time for any and all mistakes I made.
Praying Mantis Feat-Tree
Emerald Claw Strike
With a swift strike from an unexpected angle, you throw your opponent off balance.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: To use this feat, you must make a single unarmed attack as a standard action. If this unarmed attack hits, you deal damage normally, and the target's Initiative takes a penalty equal to your Wis modifier for a number of rounds equal to your Wis modifier, unless it makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier).
Attitude of the Praying Mantis
You use your superior speed to press your enemy to his limit with your strikes.
Prerequisite: Emerald Claw Strike, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single unarmed melee attack against a foe whose initiative is less than yours. If the attack hits, you deal damage normally and the target loses its Dex bonus to AC until the end of your next turn unless it makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier).
Grasping Mantodea Whirlwind
If the Praying Mantis catches a foe off-guard it exploits this advantage swift and.
Prerequisite: Attitude of the Praying Mantis, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike against an opponent who is denied his Dex bonus to AC and whose initiative is less than yours, you get an insight bonus equal to the difference between your initiative and his to all of your attack and damage rolls for this round.
Six-Legs-Thousand-Eyes Stance
You take a low, stable stance – arms bent backward fists bend forward and weaving in front of you – while your eyes flit around rapidly taking in the situation.
Prerequisite: Emerald Claw Strike, base attack bonus +6, Ki Pool Class Feature
Benefit:You take a move action to set yourself in the stance. For a number of rounds equal to your Wis modifier you gain an insight bonus equal to your Wis modifier to your Initiative. Also, as long as the stance lasts you can choose to inflict piercing damage with your Unarmed Strikes. You can only have one stance active at a time.
Arms of Ten-Thousand razors
Your fists and elbows move with blinding speed, denying your opponent even one fraction of a second to take a breath.
Prerequisite: Six-Legs-Thousand-Eyes Stance, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: While in the Six-Legs-Thousand-Eyes Stance you can spend a number of points from your ki pool up to your Wis modifier, to make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus per ki point spent when making a flurry of blows attack. You take a -1 penalty to all attack and damage rolls in this round for every two ki points spent.
Acute Insectile Swerve
You move deliberately and seemingly slow, but erratically you never are where the strokes and punches are.
Prerequisite: Six-Legs-Thousand-Eyes Stance, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: If you move at half your speed or slower while in the Six-Legs-Thousand-Eyes Stance you can designate an opponent whose initiative is lower than yours. You gain an insight bonus equal to the difference between your initiative and his to your AC, up to your Wis modifier, against attacks from this opponent.
Perplexingly-accelerated-Opening-Thrust
No one should be careless in the presence of the Mantis. As soon as an opening presents itself to you, your fists lash out with terrible momentum.
Prerequisite: Six-Legs-Thousand-Eyes Stance, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: While in the Six-Legs-Thousand-Eyes Stance and able to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead make a number of attacks equal to your Wis modifier against the opponent who provoked the attack of opportunity if you spend a point from your ki pool.
Fastening Hook-Claw Meditation
The one trained in the ways of the Mantis can mimic it to gain and keep the upper hand in a grapple.
Prerequisite: Emerald Claw Strike, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: When attempting a grapple combat maneuver you can spend a point from your ki pool to gain an insight bonus equal to your Wis modifier to your CMB. If the grapple combat maneuver is successful you inflict one point of Dexterity damage and may immediately try to pin the opponent.
Tenacity of the Mantis' clutch
When you latch onto your prey it is difficult and potentially perilous for it to break free.
Prerequisite: Fastening Hook-Claw Meditation, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: Whenever an opponent, whose initiative is lower than yours, breaks free from a grapple with you, he provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
Thanks for reading and all feedback is welcome.
Greetings
Mikalki
Welcome to Pathfinder Reward - I have this available for Ezren, Lazzero's alter ego:
Society Initiate: You may only assign this reward to the first PFSACG character that you create. At the end of a scenario, if your character is dead, you may cross this reward off; your character is no longer dead. If you have a role card, you may instead cross this reward off to gain a card feat.
Scenario Progress: Lazzero:
* 0) Played something with Darago at a Con. Received a chronicle but I think this is basically not relevant to my Ezren progression even though they are both my -1001 PC. (As I mentioned at the start of the game, I played this PFS ID # (my -1001) once before, a few years ago at a con, but as Darago, not Ezren. We failed the scenario but I did receive a chronicle (if it would be helpful I can send along a copy of that chronicle). So: does that chronicle apply to Ezren (even though I played it as Darago in that case)? Does the fact that we failed the scenario make any difference to tier progression? I think the only reward the chronicle shows is a card upgrade - should that upgrade apply to Ezren?) - I'm basically treating this as if it doesn't exist and I started Ezren with no upgrades...
* 1.1) 4-1A: AMID THE YELLOW CITY (complete 11/25/18)
Gained access to Traders: Falsin Deek, Ghoul Market, Sunburst Market
Skill feat: Wis +1
Card Upgrade: Item 1:
Re Hell's Vengeance Scenarios: We get a maximum of two tier advancements from this. "When replaying, you may earn the reward for each card once, but only count the scenario once for tier advancement." And there are two "Scenarios," Murder in the Market Place and Dangerous Cargo, so I believe that's two tier advancements.
* 1.2) 4-P1: MURDER IN THE MARKETPLACE LAZZERO (complete 12/5/18)
Scenario Reward: Each player may, for each future scenario, choose to exchange his character that completed this scenario with Lazzero from Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1. Lazzero gets the same number of skill, power, and card feats as the exchanged character, as well as all other applicable rewards that character has earned (including any valid deck upgrades and a role card if appropriate). Build Lazzero’s deck from the Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1 box using the Hierarchy from the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide. The exchanged character receives any rewards and upgrades from the scenario. Report the character as Unlocked Cleric Lazzero.
Power feat: Hand Size: 6
Upgrade: Spell B
* 1.2) 4-P1: MURDER IN THE MARKETPLACE - LINXIA (complete 1/1/19)
Scenario Reward: Each player may, for each future scenario, choose to exchange his character that completed this scenario with Linxia from Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1. Linxia gets the same number of skill, power, and card feats as the exchanged character, as well as all other applicable rewards that character has earned (including any valid deck upgrades and a role card if appropriate). Build Linxia’s deck from the Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1 box using the Hierarchy from the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide. The exchanged character receives any rewards and upgrades from the scenario. Report the character as Unlocked Hellknight Linxia.
Upgrade: Spell 1
* 1.2) 4-P1: MURDER IN THE MARKETPLACE URGRAZ (complete 1/18/19)
Scenario Reward Each player may, for each future scenario, choose to exchange his character that completed this scenario with Urgraz from Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1. Urgraz gets the same number of skill, power, and card feats as the exchanged character, as well as all other applicable rewards that character has earned (including any valid deck upgrades and a role card if appropriate). Build Urgraz’s deck from the Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1 box using the Hierarchy from the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide. The exchanged character receives any rewards and upgrades from the scenario. Report the character as Unlocked Antipaladin Urgraz.
Upgrade: Ally B
* 1.3) 4-2A: Missing Persons (complete 3/12/19)
Scenario Reward: For the rest of the Adventure Path, 1 character may temporarily replace 1 weapon in her deck with the loot Natron Fang and 1 character may temporarily replace 1 item in his deck with the loot Hand of the Honest Man. At the end of each scenario, return the loot to the game box.
Card Upgrade: Spell 1
* 1.4) 4-2B: Mirror, Mirror (complete 4/10/19)
* Card Feat: Spell +1 to 4
* Reward: Trader: Auction House - For the rest of the Adventure Path, your trade cost for Falsin Deek is reduced by 1 card (to a minimum of 1).
* Tier Up to 2.0
* Card Upgrade: Spell 1
2.2) 4-2D: Cinders' Truth (completed 5/13/19)
* Power Feat: Instead of the first exploration of your turn, you may allow a character at your location to bury a card; if she does, a character at your location shuffles 1d4+1 ([X]+2) cards from his discard pile into his deck.
* Card Upgrade: Ally 1. Add Retriever (retire Falcon).
2.3) 4-2E: Dark Nuptials (completed 6/1/19) - (first scenario played as Lazzero)
* Scenario Reward: For the rest of the Adventure Path, your trade cost for Ghoul Market is reduced by 1 card (to a minimum of 1).
* Scenario Reward: For the rest of the Adventure Path, 1 character may temporarily replace 1 ally in his deck with the loot Neferekhu and 1 character may temporarily replace 1 item in her deck with the loot Ushabti of the Willing Servant. At the end of each scenario, return the loot to the game box.
* Adventure Reward: Each character gains a card feat: add Spell +1 to 5 - fill slot with Dread Bolt
* Card Upgrade: Spell B (Dread Bolt)
2.4) 4-P2: Dangerous Cargo (Nyctessa) (starting 6/4/19, completed 7/8/19, playing as Ezren)
Ezren will take loot cards:
* Deathgrip (trading Lightning Touch for it)
* Unwrapped Harmony (trading Apprentice for it)
* The Game of Afterlife (trading Codex for it)
Ezren will also, again, visit Sunburst Market and trade his Walking Stick for Blessing of the Elements.
Ezren visits Falsin Deek (items) and (maybe?) trades Sapphire of Intelligence for ?
* Scenario Reward: For the rest of the Adventure Path, 1 character may temporarily replace 1 item in her deck with the item Effigy of Anubis. At the end of each scenario, return that item to the game box.
* Scenario Reward: Each player may, for each future scenario, choose to exchange her character that completed this scenario with Nyctessa from Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 2. Nyctessa gets the same number of skill, power, and card feats as the exchanged character, as well as all other applicable rewards that character has earned (including any valid deck upgrades and a role card if appropriate). Build Nyctessa’s deck from the Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 2 box using the Hierarchy from the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide. The exchanged character receives any rewards and upgrades from the scenario. Report the character as Unlocked Wizard Nyctessa.
* Card feat: TBD
* Tier up to 3.0
* Card upgrade: TBD
3.0) TBD
Lazzero will take loot cards:
* Spear of the Watchful Guardian (trading Naginata for it)
* Akhentepi's Armor (trading Gambeson for it)
* Unwrapped Harmony (trading Falconer for it)
* Deathgrip (trading Fear for it)
* Lazzero will go to Falsin Deek, where he gets Djinn Favor Amulet (trading Mock Armor, Item 1)
Tier 1:
Card Upgrade Options:
Weapon:
Spell B:
Spell 1
Item 1
Ally B:
Ally 1:
Tier 2:
Skill Feat: Power Feat:
Card Feat: Spell +1 to 10
Upgrade Options:
Weapon 2:
Spell 2
Item 2
Ally 2:
Tier 3:
Skill Feat:
Power Feat:
Card Feat: Spell +1 to 11
Upgrade Options:
Weapon 3:
Spell:
Item:
Ally:
Tier 4:
Role Card:
Bonus Power Feat for gaining Role Card:
Skill Feat:
Power Feat:
Card Feat:
Upgrade Options:
Weapon:
Spell:
Item:
Ally:
Tier 5:
Skill Feat: TBD
Power Feat:
Card Feat:
Upgrade Options:
Weapon:
Spell:
Item:
Ally:
Tier 6:
Skill Feat: TBD
Power Feat:
Card Feat:
Upgrade Options:
Weapon:
Spell:
Item:
Ally:
Card Assortment:
Starting Assortment:
Weapon: 1
Spell: 8 (use the first 3 card feats to bring this to 11)
Armor: 0
Item: 3
Ally: 3
Blessing: n/a
