A Simple Proposition: an Argument Against Martial Inferiority


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Thalin wrote:
*Fighters are specialized masters of following orders and slaying things*

Following orders? I always thought all classes where there for the heroics. Can't wrap my head around that...

You can fluffify any class in any way you want (and play them in a great many different and customizable ways). Preconceptions are not your friend ;)

Liberty's Edge

I don't really want to get in on this, but I am curious how this team would do.

My 10 point buy to handle the encounters:

Spoiler:

4x Dhampir cleric of Gorum CN (Channel negative energy)

Str 14
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 12
Chr 14

HP: 10 AC: 17

Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +3

Domains: Destruction (Rage) / War (Tactics)

Feat: Extra Channeling

Traits: Perception as a class skill, rich parents

Equipment (roughly priced):

4x Masterwork Great swords
4x Heavy Crossbows
20x Masterwork Bolts
4x Chain mail
8x wooden holy symbols

1x wand of ???
1x wand of inflict light wounds

Spells:

0: Guidance

1: Bless x2, True Strike

Tactics:
Walk around with guidance up on the attack roll. First one to win initiative (more likely than not, thanks to tactics) throws bless.

If against melee combatants: Crossbows until enemy closes and melee ensues. Channel for offense or defense.

If against ranged combatants: Close in while firing off crossbows. Charge when able. Channel for offense or defense.

Against Dragon: True strike and crossbows. Or hold action to channel.


mplindustries wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So it would no longer be a party of 4 wizards. That only supports my point.

Well, I think it depends on what point you're trying to prove.

If you're trying to prove that a Wizard needs a tank to survive (especially at low levels), then you're pretty spot on in your assessment.

I'm trying to prove that wizards (or casters in general) are not nearly as powerful as people want to claim. Quite a bit of the talk is hyperbole and I have noticed that when people (not you personally) get called out on it, they can't back it up. I know that casters are potent at any level. I don't think that they can simply walk into Mordor with one hand tied behind their backs because they are casters. That's how it comes across from too many people.

Quote:
If you're trying to prove that being a Figther is as powerful and useful to the group as being a Wizard is, well, I think you'd lose that one. You can hire (or later, summon) an NPC to do the same thing, since all that's really needed is a mobile sack of hit points to take up space, eat some hits, and finish off the "controlled" enemies casters leave in their wake. Congratulations, Fighter player, you fill the same role as a hireling/summon!

Wizards and clerics can be hired too so it's a moot point. Usefulness is going to be too campaign dependent and I am working on avoiding that argument because it's a foolish one from all sides.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Remember that you would have to run through the whole gauntlet. You wouldn't be dealing with just one encounter and calling it a day. You would be expending your resources as you go. The best Will save is the dragon at +4. Of course it also has an initiative bonus of +7, which will be hard to match if the wizards are stuck in 10 point buy.

I think I misunderstood and assumed the Wizards would have ample time, like in a real scenario. They could use familiars to scout ahead and determine what spells they need for the upcoming encounter, and possibly retreat and regroup if necessary.

The Dragon looks more dangerous now, but he's only got 2 or 3 more Initiative than a Wizard with Improved Initiative (and less than a Sorcerer with Improved Initiative and that trait that uses Cha for initiative), and he's fully susceptible to Color Spray. I would expect at least one of the four to beat him in initiative.

Which trait uses Charisma for initiative? That is intriguing. As for having ample time, you will have some time between encounters but you don't get time to rest and regain resources. The claim that was made was half a dozen CR+2 encounters with ease. Getting to regain resources between encounters shows that they cannot accomplish this standard that was set forth.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
The swarm may be something they can handle with some burning hands or rays of frost. It only has 9 hit points. The giant spider would be a bit more difficult, but I'm sure that a clever group can figure it out. I'm not sure what I would do.
I'm going to be honest here: I'm really lazy. I love having these sorts of theoretical discussions and I really love looking up rules and creating specific combos--but when it comes to actually creating a party of characters? I'm honestly more likely to just concede that you're right than actually do that sort of work, sorry.

That's why I threw out the list of encounters, so that the party could figure out exactly what they need before hand. It should be even easier for someone to build a party of wizards to deal with these encounters since they have all the information right up front, unlike what they would actually encounter in a real adventure.

I love the discussions as well. I hope that someone makes the sorcerers. I would love to see them in action. I think that sorcerers would fare much better than wizards in this scenario.

Dark Archive

And I think a lot of Mage-power love comes down to this. Mages really don't end up in a scenario every time where they can take what is thrown at them; they traditionally have poor saves, non-existent AC and 8 hp / lvl after toughness, 14 con, and favored class. If they focus on buffing spells to stay alive they undermine their usefulness to the party. There are arguments at high levels for save-or-dies being more efficient than hp damage; but those doing hp damage are far less squishy. What makes synthasist summoners overpowered is they are close enough to a full made, but with a near-invincible armor shield that adds to saves and such.

So mages really tend to be "cool" in play, but fall more often than many others (it's difficult to prevent targeting in this game, GM being nice pending). So in some situations mages will make life impossible at high levels; in others they are decimated

This isn't true of all presumptions though; rogues and monks do tend to play as weak as advertised; albeit monks have started to get good (haven't seen one be high-tier yet though).


ShadowcatX wrote:

I don't really want to get in on this, but I am curious how this team would do.

My 10 point buy to handle the encounters:

** spoiler omitted **

Clever idea having them pool all their money. I honestly hadn't considered that option.

Guidance is only going to last you a minute but since you can choose the encounter order, I assume that you are going to go up against the two CR 3 encounters first since that's probably where you'll need it the most.

I think that the thing you've got going here is the channeling of the negative energy. I can see you going most of the way through this using almost only the channeling ability. You're going to have a harder fight against the dragon and the ranger, but you actually have an excellent chance of making it. I ran through just the averages for damage with your 28 channels per day, and you will probably only need half of them. You shouldn't need the wands at all. That being said, I think that you could run into problems if you are ambushed by the dragon or ranger. The dragon has a +21 Stealth and the Ranger has +8. If we assume that they will be 60 feet away, that's actually +26 and +13 respectively (the badger would be +16). The giant spider has +7 but the swarm is +15. Spiders aren't all that bright though so I can see them waiting until you are almost on top of them.

I also think that losing initiative could be very bad. If the enemy gets the drop on you and you lose initiative, that could be very bad. The dragon can open with the breath weapon and still get another attack, possibly taking out one of your clerics before you can channel or heal. Same with the ranger.

Overall though, I do think that this particular party of clerics has a decent chance to run the gauntlet successfully.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

getting back to the original post...

i think a party of 4 paladins would do well: good combat ability, good survivability, plenty of healing (often as a free action), and with unsanctioned knowledge and the sacred servant archetype you can even get a little spell support- plus, everyone has good charisma so social skills will be covered and someone could easily have a good UMD. if i have time next week, maybe i'll do full write ups.

i think that summoners are possibly the most OP class in the game (i know thats a can of worms, please don't flood this forum with protests that belong on one of the summoners-r-OP forums)- so i have no doubt that a party of 4 would wreck just about any adventure. does that make them the best? i think that really depends on what you want out of a gaming experience; if you're goal is to outdo others then yeah summoners are up there (along with anyone who can cast wish or miracle)- if you're goal is to hit someone so hard that the GM gets out his calculator to re-add everything then play a barbarian or a fighter (a 13th level weapon master can easily break 100 dmg on a well timed crit), and if your goal is to make a character that you enjoy trying to overcome obstacles with make anything you want (honestly, the 'sub-par' mundane classes can be more fun for this- you have to think about things and plan instead of saying "oh, i just cast x").[/rant]

all that said, i do think you could make a perfectly functional 4 fighter party. it would obviously have a more difficult time getting around than a party with teleport, and will certainly miss having a healer after those big fights, but would actually outperform 4 wizards in some situations (including many combats). i'm at work right now, so i can't really do 4 full builds- but i'll try to put my money where my mouth is later tonight (while playing my fighter/monk) if i have some down time and see if i can find time tomorrow to post them.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So it would no longer be a party of 4 wizards. That only supports my point.

Well, I think it depends on what point you're trying to prove.

If you're trying to prove that a Wizard needs a tank to survive (especially at low levels), then you're pretty spot on in your assessment.

I'm trying to prove that wizards (or casters in general) are not nearly as powerful as people want to claim. Quite a bit of the talk is hyperbole and I have noticed that when people (not you personally) get called out on it, they can't back it up. I know that casters are potent at any level. I don't think that they can simply walk into Mordor with one hand tied behind their backs because they are casters. That's how it comes across from too many people.

Quote:
If you're trying to prove that being a Figther is as powerful and useful to the group as being a Wizard is, well, I think you'd lose that one. You can hire (or later, summon) an NPC to do the same thing, since all that's really needed is a mobile sack of hit points to take up space, eat some hits, and finish off the "controlled" enemies casters leave in their wake. Congratulations, Fighter player, you fill the same role as a hireling/summon!

Wizards and clerics can be hired too so it's a moot point. Usefulness is going to be too campaign dependent and I am working on avoiding that argument because it's a foolish one from all sides.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Remember that you would have to run through the whole gauntlet. You wouldn't be dealing with just one encounter and calling it a day. You would be expending your resources as you go. The best Will save is the dragon at +4. Of course it also has an initiative bonus of +7, which will be hard to match if the wizards are stuck in 10 point buy.
I think I misunderstood and assumed the Wizards would have ample time, like in a real scenario. They could use familiars to scout ahead and determine what spells they need for the upcoming encounter, and possibly...

The thing is, you can't really prove that wizards aren't as powerful as people make them out to be, because they are that powerful. A popular example on this board is the Schrodingers wizard, who always has the correct spells prepared. You know what? This is the correct way to think of them. Any competent wizard will spend a few spell slots at the beginning of the day to assess whether they will be threatened within the next week, and if so, what will be attacking them. Then they can refine their spell list to be perfectly matched for whatever they will be facing.

More than that, the best spells a wizard can use are Save-or-Sucks, ie. spells that demand a will/ref/fort save or be immobilized or receive some severe penalty. Most enemies don't have the saves to stop all three different types, and those that do can be taken down through other means (such as massive damage via metamagicked spells).

The argument most make against this type of wizard is that they can't do that kind of thing all day long. But, they can. Look at a 5th level specialist wizard; he has at least a dozen spell slots available for use in a day, which means 3 spells for each combat, plus any scrolls, wands, or staves he has crafted. The fighter, or any other martial class, cannot match that, because their resource, HP, is expended much more quickly by getting into them middle of a fight. Healing them doesn't count either, because that is expending further resources to make sure the fighter remains viable, which makes him a drain on party resources, rather than an asset.

In conclusion, a fighters place in the party can easily be taken by a summoned monster, who has the edge on him by being completely expendable and requiring few buffs.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Male Dragon, Black, Wyrmling

--------------------
NPC Party
--------------------
6 kobolds
--------------------
4 orcs
--------------------
spider swarm and giant spider
--------------------
Trapper

Thanks for posting these. I'm with you, this is just for fun.

Considering the enemies, I would stick with my wizard party but change the grease x4 to sleep x4. My general strategy would be to maintain resistance and mage armor, hope to win initiative (should be ok here with four +9s), crowd control, swarm the enemy with summons and win by attrition. Or if the CC is effective enough, just walk away.

Wyrmling: I would hope at least one guy wins initiative to cast color spray. Then I would spread out and swarm it with summons. The mage armor wand wielder would use ray of frost (just as good or better than a crossbow considering the AC) and be ready to reapply color spray. Average dpr = 7 (2 per riding dog, 1 for the ray), 5 rounds to kill. Two color sprays should have it stunned for that long, but I'll reserve three for good measure.

NPCs: Win initiative and cast sleep. Now it's 4 wizards on one. Summon dogs.

Kobolds: Cast sleep x2. Daze if necessary. Summon dogs.

Orcs: Sleep. Daze if necessary. Summon dogs.

Spiders: Blow all my bonded spells for burning hands x4. Summon dogs to finish off the giant spider.

Trapper: Color spray. Take out badger. Take out trapper with daze and summons.


Divergent wrote:
The thing is, you can't really prove that wizards aren't as powerful as people make them out to be, because they are that powerful. A popular example on this board is the Schrodingers wizard, who always has the correct spells prepared. You know what? This is the correct way to think of them. Any competent wizard will spend a few spell slots at the beginning of the day to assess whether they will be threatened within the next week, and if so, what will be attacking them. Then they can refine their spell list to be perfectly matched for whatever they will be facing.

Saying that wizards are as powerful as people make them out to be doesn't make it true. I have given you all the information you need to prove it. You made a claim and I asked you to show me that it's true. So show me. I actually don't have to prove that they aren't because that's proving a negative. You made a positive claim. The ball is in your court. So far, two people have stepped up, one with clerics and one with wizards. I haven't looked the wizards over yet but they didn't even make the claim. They are fighting your battles for you.

Quote:
More than that, the best spells a wizard can use are Save-or-Sucks, ie. spells that demand a will/ref/fort save or be immobilized or receive some severe penalty. Most enemies don't have the saves to stop all three different types, and those that do can be taken down through other means (such as massive damage via metamagicked spells).

So show me how it's done. There are 6 encounters laid out for you. All you have to do is show me what a party of 10 point buy wizards will accomplish.

Quote:
In conclusion, a fighters place in the party can easily be taken by a summoned monster, who has the edge on him by being completely expendable and requiring few buffs.

I'm not turning this into a fighter/wizard debate. Either you are able to prove it or not. Can you prove it?


Hudax wrote:
Considering the enemies, I would stick with my wizard party but change the grease x4 to sleep x4. My general strategy would be to maintain resistance and mage armor, hope to win initiative (should be ok here with four +9s), crowd control, swarm the enemy with summons and win by attrition. Or if the CC is effective enough, just walk away.

Good strategy. I don't think you'd need to really worry maintaining resistance though. The time it takes to cast it and the duration are probably not going to be enough to make a difference. I say cast it once before a known combat begins. I don't think you want to waste time recasting it when you need other spells. Remember that using the wands to summon dogs takes 1 round. In other words, the enemy might be able to attack before the dogs are summoned.

Quote:
Wyrmling: I would hope at least one guy wins initiative to cast color spray. Then I would spread out and swarm it with summons. The mage armor wand wielder would use ray of frost (just as good or better than a crossbow considering the AC) and be ready to reapply color spray. Average dpr = 7 (2 per riding dog, 1 for the ray), 5 rounds to kill. Two color sprays should have it stunned for that long, but I'll reserve three for good measure.

He barely makes it under the radar for color spray. The dragon's AC drops from 18 to 11 just from the spell and flanking. However, the dogs are only lasting one round each. That's about 20-25 uses of the wand depending on how well the dragon does. If the dragon gets a single attack though, your wizards are hurting and could be dead if he rolls slightly higher than average on his breath weapon. It is very likely that he will be able to get the drop on your party with his stealth being so high.

Quote:
NPCs: Win initiative and cast sleep. Now it's 4 wizards on one. Summon dogs.

I figured the NPCs could go down quickly. You're going to need three more charges though.

Quote:
Kobolds: Cast sleep x2. Daze if necessary. Summon dogs.

This is going to be highly dependent on how they are laid out but I can see them dropping quickly. If sleep is successful, you won't need the dogs.

Quote:
Orcs: Sleep. Daze if necessary. Summon dogs.

They will probably go down as easily as the kobolds but you only have 1 sleep spell left when you get to them. You will probably need to summon the dogs. If the orcs get even one attack (and at least one probably will), you can probably see one wizard going down.

Quote:
Spiders: Blow all my bonded spells for burning hands x4. Summon dogs to finish off the giant spider.

The swarm is probably the easiest but you want to roll well because you've probably already lost one wizard by now. But you will have the giant spider coming at at least one wizard. You are most likely down one from earlier. I think you may be starting to run on fumes at this point.

Quote:
Trapper: Color spray. Take out badger. Take out trapper with daze and summons.

Nice, you saved one color spray for this. The ranger is only 4 HD so he could also be affected if he fails his save. If he isn't affected, you're probably not going to do well. Of course this all depends on you not seeing him before he sees you.

All in all, I think that your party might be able to pull it off but it would be tough. In actual play, you would most likely adjust your tactics a bit. Even if you do make it, it wasn't "with ease."

I wonder how well you would do without Rich Parents though. In a game without traits, I don't think you would make it at all.


One tactic that almost *any* party can use against some encounters is abusing ranged weapons (and ideally, stealth/perception).

Fit out your entire party with longbows (or whatever ranged weapon has the longest range).
Ideally, send one member of the party 100' or so in front of the group, stealthed. Aim is to ensure that the fight starts at bow range.

As soon as the fight starts, run away! To bow range.

When at bow range, start kiting the enemy, stopping to shoot when possible. Mix in readied actions (I shoot if a target gets in range), and spreading out so that 1 enemy can't tie up all of you. Skirmishing.

--

For the six encounters above, this tactic will fail terribly against the dragon. High movement, good perpection and stealth. It's not that useful against the kobolds (a free round of attacks perhaps?), or the ranger.

For the NPC party, it will be particularly amusing. The dwarf has 20' move. Only the elf wizard has a longbow (other two have slings).

The kiting tactic is useful against the spiders as well. Run away from the *mindless* spiders until the two foes are seperated. While the large one chases one of the party, the rest of the group practise their bowfire. For the swarm, move just outside of its movement and ready an action to attack it when it mindlessly runs near you. Then kite. Options for the attack include alchemist's fire, a 0th level spell, or simply luring it into a pile of oil-soaked wood and throwing a torch on it.

Focus firing down 1 or 2 orcs, then skirmishing to get free shots on the remaining two should work as well.

---

It's not an perfect solution to all fights, only being of real benefit against 3 of those you picked (and not much use in a dungeon), and the tactic fails if the fight starts in melee range.

But it can trivialise some encounters, and reducing the number of encounters per day is all some parties need, particularly spellcasters.

This tactic also works at high levels. I don't care what size category your giant scorpion is- one archer with Boots of Flight and a Longbow will take it down.

Scarab Sages Reaper Miniatures

Which class is best? The one I am excited about playing next!

My next two characters for upcoming APs will be a Druid and a Barbarian. Right now I play an Oracle. All 3 of these are totally THE BEST!

and when those 3 APs are over, we're gonna play Rise of the Runelords. I don't know what class I'm choosing for that one, but I'm sure that my guy in that will also be THE BEST!

Ok - yes, I know that was OT. The OP's suggestion was, GIVEN: X class is always the best/most overpowered solution, THEN: a party of 4 of X class should be the ideal party for all situations. PROVE. I get it.

For me, the best party is the one my friends are at the table with me for. And the best character is any character I have fun playing.


didn't read the whole thread, but is no one attempting 4 Bards? or 4 rogues?

i know someone is up to the challenge!!

I actually believe that 4 Bards could be pretty darn good, 4 rogues would be fun, but doubt it would take out many other parties


Bryan Stiltz wrote:


Ok - yes, I know that was OT. The OP's suggestion was, GIVEN: X class is always the best/most overpowered solution, THEN: a party of 4 of X class should be the ideal party for all situations. PROVE. I get it.

Oh yes... the OP. Forgot about that >.<

Firstly- yes, the most overpowered class is the one you want to play. Some of us however find optimization problems fun, hence the following comment ^^

--

If I was trying to argue that melee < magic in Pathfinder, I wouldn't mess around with designing entire parties. Proving that 4 wizards are better than 4 fighters proves nothing- you are ignoring the existence of balanced parties.

Imagine a class which had no attacks, but as a standard action could quadruple the damage of all nearby allies, at will.
Obviously it breaks game balance. But a party of 4 of them would lose to a housecat.

The question which should be asked is- "Can you make a spellcaster which does the job of a fighter better than the fighter?".

I'll leave it up to people to decide what 'the job of a fighter' is. Afaik there were builds in 3.5 which could do this. But a lot of them relied on very powerful prestige classes, and methods to make '1 round per level' buffs last all day. Whether the same holds true in Pathfinder, I'm not so sure.


Y'know, in regard to this challenge, I think an all-Rogue party would actually do very well.

  • They can bypass any encounters they can't handle
  • The whole group of them can be stealthed and/or disguised all day.
  • They don't rely on #/day abilities, so endurance isn't an issue.
  • Most encounters will start with "We all SA the strongest guy; he's dead", giving a serious advantage to them before anything even starts
  • Perception will be high in the group, and then there's Uncanny Dodge; good luck jumping them
  • UMD is available to all of them at low cost (lots of ranks per level - dumb not to invest some in UMD), so looted wands and scrolls can be put to good use, and everyone can be a healer with the fabled CLW wand. This also means that level 1-4 magic will be easily brought to bear.
  • Social situations? Under control.

Rogues really only show their weaknesses when paired up with non-Rogues... or fighting things like oozes without any applicable gear to UMD. Even then, if the entire group plays Rogue-ish (strategically, slowly set up combat, sneak everywhere, etc.) then they become quite the force.

Truth be told, you could take many a class and have them cooperate with Rogue-ish methodology. Rangers, sneaky bards, or spellcasters who build for subterfuge would also fit this mould (and probably do better than the Rogues they replace, sadly). But nevertheless, a group of Rogues can still be quite the menace... all of them take different Rogue Talents for SA... in round 1, the toughest guy is hit with bleeding, flat-footed, slowed movement, and lots of damage. Then roll initiative against a high-Dex party (some of which likely have Improved Init)... so more SA coming your way before even your first response.

The big thing is that if this is an arena combat, the Rogues are paste, plain and simple. But if it's say... full contact hide & seek... or no-time-limit-open-world, then chances get better. If the social game can comes into play, where you can surprise attack in mid-conversation, the Rogues fear nobody but the Bards.

Probably the best anti-Rogue squad would be a squad of Barbarians... with their Uncanny Dodge and vastly superior combat ability. A Ranger squad would also be a likely victor, since they have the same spot/stealth, but better combat ability... note that I said nothing about favored terrain, since both Rangers and Rogues get it / can get it.

Liberty's Edge

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Clever idea having them pool all their money. I honestly hadn't considered that option.

Thanks.

Quote:
Guidance is only going to last you a minute but since you can choose the encounter order, I assume that you are going to go up against the two CR 3 encounters first since that's probably where you'll need it the most.

They can each cast it once per minute.

Quote:
I think that the thing you've got going here is the channeling of the negative energy. I can see you going most of the way through this using almost only the channeling ability.

Agreed. I almost maxed out their charisma and just went that route entirely.

Quote:

I also think that losing initiative could be very bad. If the enemy gets the drop on you and you lose initiative, that could be very bad. The dragon can open with the breath weapon and still get another attack, possibly taking out one of your clerics before you can channel or heal. Same with the ranger.

Overall though, I do think that this particular party of clerics has a decent chance to run the gauntlet successfully.

I do think loosing initiative will be devastating, especially against the dragon. That's the reason for the tactics domain. It won't guarantee winning but it'll help. Probably save that fight for last so if I did loose one the other three at least don't have to carry the rest of the encounters.


ertaisoul wrote:

One tactic that almost *any* party can use against some encounters is abusing ranged weapons (and ideally, stealth/perception).

Fit out your entire party with longbows (or whatever ranged weapon has the longest range).
Ideally, send one member of the party 100' or so in front of the group, stealthed. Aim is to ensure that the fight starts at bow range.

As soon as the fight starts, run away! To bow range.

When at bow range, start kiting the enemy, stopping to shoot when possible. Mix in readied actions (I shoot if a target gets in range), and spreading out so that 1 enemy can't tie up all of you.

Kiting is a valid tactic in a video game but I don't really see it's usefulness in actual play. If it won't work against PCs (and it shouldn't most of the time), then it shouldn't work against the opposition very often either.

Staying at range instead of getting into melee is an excellent option and one that both caster parties use.


Vuvu wrote:
I actually believe that 4 Bards could be pretty darn good, 4 rogues would be fun, but doubt it would take out many other parties

I plan on working on four level 1 Bards over the weekend, but feel free to do the same. Bards rule! :)


ShadowcatX wrote:
I do think loosing initiative will be devastating, especially against the dragon. That's the reason for the tactics domain. It won't guarantee winning but it'll help. Probably save that fight for last so if I did loose one the other three at least don't have to carry the rest of the encounters.

What amused me most was that it probably won't be the casting that gets them through all of that. I also don't think you need Rich Parents to pull it off. It would be nice, but you could probably take Reactionary instead and have a better chance. You really don't need the wands or masterwork gear.


I finished lv 6 party of Rangers.
I did use were and Ogrekin template, but there were no restrictions listed.
2 are archers, 1 is 2 handed, 1 is shield user. If I made any big mistakes in calculations let me know, but I think I did well.
I took Falconer because it was cool not because it is awesome.

Power Rangers: Level 6, 10,500 gp, 20 points
a. Henry The Trap

Spoiler:

Male Ogrekin Human Ranger (trapper) 6
CN Medium Humanoid (Giant)
Init +6; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +10/ (trap 13)
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 22,(4 Dex + 5 Chain Shirt+ 4 NA + 0 Deflect)touch 14, flat-footed 18.
Hp 73
Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +6
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
+1 Longbow (Composite +4)+ 11 (1d8 + 5), 110ft Range, Crit x3. Deadly aim adds +4 dam, -2 hit.
Class features:
Trapfinding: +3 perception, Disable device. Track (+3 survival tracking) , Endurance,
Combat Style: Archer: Precise shot and Manyshot, Weak Mind -2 Will. +3 NA. (Primary) Bite 1d4
Trap set as full rd action that AoO. The DCs Perception checks to notice the trap, Disable Device checks to disable it, and saving throws to avoid it are equal to 10 + 1/2 the character’s level + wis (3)= DC 16. A trap’s DC decreases by 1 for each full day (or hour, for a magical trap) that passes after it is set. The trapper can use these traps a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 her ranger level (3)+ wis (3)= 6.
Traps marked with an asterisk (*) add to or modify the effects of another trap; a ranger can add one of these trap types to any standard ranger trap (this costs 1 additional use of the trap ability).
1) Snare
2) Fire Trap: dealing a number of points of fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 level (3) to the triggering creature (reflex negate).
Useable: 3 + Wis (3), Dur 3 days.
3) Burning Trap: Augments a Fire, triggering creature fails its save, it catches on fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage at the start of its turn for 1d4 rounds. The burning creature can attempt a new save as a full rd action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18 Dex 18 Con 20 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10.
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 24
Feats:
1) Point Blank shot, 2) Rapid Shot, 3) Deadly aim 4)Learn Ranger trap.
Traits: 1) Dangerously Curious: +1 UMD, 2) Reactionary: +2 Init
Skills
Disable Device 6 (3, 0 =9), Search 6 (3, 0=9), Survival 5 (3, 3=11), Perception 4 (3, 3=10/trap 13), Know (dungeoneering) 2 (3, 0=5), Stealth 4 (3, 4=11), Swim 4 (3, 4=11), Heal 5 (3, 3=11), UMD +1 (3, 1=5), Cross: Acrobatics 5 (3=9)
Gear: 210 gp
+1 weapon (2.4K), Cloak of Resistance +2 (1900 gp), +1 armor (1k), Amulet of NA+1 (1900 gp), Bracers of Archery Lesser (2350 gp), potion of CLW x4, Arrows 1000, Bandages of Rapid Recovery x4 (340 gp)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Hunter’s Bond: move action to grant half his favored enemy bonus against a single target of the appropriate type to all allies within 30 feet who can see or hear him. Dur: 3 rd.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Wild Empathy +6 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Favored enemy: Vs creature type Bonus on Bluff, perception, Knowledge, Sense Motive, and survival. As well as hit/damage bonus. Magical Beast +2, Aberration +4
Favored Terrain: +2 Init, Perception, stealth, Survival, Know (geo) Plains.

b.
Buggy, Were-Tiger Level 6
Spoiler:

NG Medium Humanoid (Duergar, Shapechanger)
Init +1/(Hybrid 3); Senses Darkvision 120 ft, Lowlight, Scent, Perception + 15
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC: 18, Hybrid 25=10+1/3 Dex + 1/6 NA + 5 Chain Shirt + 1 Deflect + 1 Dodge
Touch: 13/(Hybrid 15) FF: 18/(Hybrid 25)
Rage: 16, 23. Touch: 11/(Hybrid 13) FF: 16/(Hybrid 23)
Hp: 6d10 +3/4 level +6= 60 (Rage 72), Hybrid 66 (Rage 84).
Fort + 8/9 (Rage 10/11), Ref +6/(Hybrid 8 ), Will +5/(Hybrid 7)
Saves: +2 vs spells.
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Speed: 20 ft (30 ft while Raging).
+1 Nodachi +9 (+16 Hybrid )(1d10+4/14),18-20/x2. Brace, S/P. +4 dam, -2 hit.
Mstk Longbow Composite (Str +9) +10 (1d8 + 9), 110ft Range, Crit x3.
2 Claws (1d8+9), Bite (2d6+9, both primary)
Class features:
Immunities: poison, paralysis, phantasm. Track (+3 survival tracking) , Endurance, Stability. 1/day, Enlarge person and Invisibility (caster 6). Light sensitivity. +4 stealth. +3 perception. Uncanny Dodge
Pounce (full attk after charge), Rake (2d6+9). NA 5 (Hybrid), DR 10/silver (Hybrid).
Rage: 4 + (3) Con +6 = 13 rd. +4 Str/Con, -2 AC, +2 will. Rage power: Swift Foot x2.
Combat Style: 2 Handed: ,
Language: common, Dwarf, undercommon.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15 (Hybrid 25) Dex 13 (Hybrid 17) Con 16 (Hybrid 18) Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 5.
Base Atk +6; CMB +8 (+15 Hybrid); CMD 21 (30 Hybrid)
Feats:
1) Power Attack, 2) Furious Focus, 3) Dodge
Traits: 1) Hedge Mage: 5% cost reduction Magic items, 2) Dirty Fighter: +1 damage when flanking (multiplied on a Crit)
Skills
Spellcraft 6 (3, 1=10), Climb 3 (3, 2/9=8/15), Heal 6 (3, 3=12), Know (geo) 6 (3, 1=10), Perception 6 (3, 3, 3=15), Stealth 6 (3, 1/3, 4 =14/16), Survival 3 (3, 3=9), Swim 6 (3, 2/9=11/18)
Spells: Caster 3, 2/day. DC 13 + spell level.
1) Lead Bladesx2: 3 min, weapon deals 2d8 damage.
Gear: 430 gp
Pearl of Power x3 (1470 gp), +1 armor (1K), +1 weapon (2.9K), Ring of Pro +1 (2K), Amulet of NA +1 (1900 gp), Arrows 1000, CLW wand
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Hunter’s Bond: move action to grant half his favored enemy bonus against a single target of the appropriate type to all allies within 30 feet who can see or hear him. Dur: 3 rd.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Wild Empathy +3 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Favored Terrain: +2 Init, Perception, stealth, Survival, Know (geo) Mountains.

c. Lieara, Vishkanya Ranger (Falconer) Level 6

Spoiler:

NG Medium Humanoid (Vishkanya)
Init +4; Senses Lowlight, Perception + 12.
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC: 21=10+ 4 Dex + 1 NA + 5 Chain Shirt + 1 Deflect. FF 17, Touch: 15
Hp: 6d10 + 3 level = 54.
+6 save vs poison. Fort + 9, Ref +10, Will +5.
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Speed: 30 ft.
+1 Heavy Crossbow +11 (1d10 + 1), 120 ft Range, Crit 19-20/x2. PB adds +1 hit/dam within 30 ft.
Class features:
Lowlight, +2 perception, escape artist, stealth;
Poison use, Toxic: Con (3)/day, swift action poison weapon (DC13 + (2) Con, frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Dex; cure 1 save). Endurance. Track (+3 survival tracking) .
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Favored Terrain: +2 Init, Perception, stealth, Survival, Know (geo) Urban.
Combat Style: Archer: Precise shot.
Hunter’s bond Falconer:
HD 6d8 + 2 level = 39. Speed 10 ft, Fly 80 ft (average), Init (4). BAB + 4.
Saves:
Fort: 5 + 2=7
Reflex: 5 + 4= 9
Will: 2 +2 =4
AC: 23= 10 + 1 small + 2 Leather + 4 Dex + 5 NA 1 Dodge.
FF: 18. Touch: 15
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 2 Wis 14 Cha 6. +5 NA.
Bite +9 (1d6+2), 2 Talon +9 (1d4 +2).
Small. Link, Share spells, Evasion, Devotion (+4 save vs enchantment)
Skills:
Perception 1 (3, 2=6), Fly 3 (3, 4=10), Stealth 1 (3, 4=), Survival 1 (3, 2=6)
Tricks:
1) Attack + 2) Unnatural, 3) Come, 4) Defend, 5) Heel, 6) Fetch,
7) Distract: attacks enemy, enemy shaken on a hit, 8) Down, 9) Perform
10) Swoop for the Kill: full rd action flying, next rd charges. Deal double damage (x4 Crit) with bite and enemy staggered 1 rd.
1) Dodge, 2) Weapon Finesse, 3) INA (bite).
Spells: Caster 5, 2/day. DC 11 + spell level. 1) Gravity Bow x2
Language: common, Dwarf, undercommon.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 9 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 14. BAB: +6.
CMB +5; CMD +20
Feats:
Feat: 1) Point Blank shot, 2) Iron Will, 3) Craft Wondrous
Traits: 1) Magical knack: +2 caster, 2) Ease of Faith: +1 diplomacy
Skills
Diplomacy 6 (3, 2, 1=12), Spellcraft 6 (3, 1=10), Stealth 6 (3, 4, 2=15), Swim 6 (3,-1=8), Survival 6 (3, 1=10), Perception 6 (3, 1, 2=12), Know (nature) 6 (3, 1=10), Heal 6 (3, 1=10)
Language: Common, Vishkanya, Draconic
Spells: Caster 5, 2/day. DC 11 + spell level. 1) Gravity Bow x2
Gear: 995 gp
Pearl of Power 1 (475 gp), 2K, 1K, Ring of Pro +1 (2K), Amulet of NA (980 gp), Belt of Con +2 (1.8K),Cloak of Resistance +1,Wand of CLW, Bolts 200
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Favored Terrain: +2 Init, Perception, stealth, Survival, Know (geo) Mountains.
Favored enemy: Vs creature type Bonus on Bluff, perception, Knowledge, Sense Motive, and survival. As well as hit/damage bonus. Undead +2, Outsider evil +4

d) Bigun Mcchesthair, Svirfneblin Ranger Level 6

Spoiler:

NG Small Humanoid (Svirfneblin, Gnome)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision 120 ft, Low light vision, Perception + 13
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC: 29 =10+ 5 Dex + 1 NA + 4 studded leather + 4 Shield+ 1 Deflect + 3 Dodge +1 size
FF 21, Touch: 19.
Hp: 6d10 + 2 level +6= 55.
Fort + 7, Ref +10, Will +5/6. +2 trait save vs charm/Compulsion
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Speed: 30 ft.
+1 Rapier: +13 (1d4+ 3), 18-20/x2. PA: -2 hit, +4 damage.
Class features:
Small, +2 dodge, Stonecunning, SR 17, +1 hit reptilian/Dwarf subtypes. +2 stealth, perception, craft alchemy. .
+1 to the DC illusion spells they cast. caster level 6. Constant Non-detection.
1/day, Blindess Deafness (DC 15), Blur, disguise self. Track (+3 survival tracking), Endurance.
Shield style: Shield Focus (+1 AC), Saving Shield: adjacent enemy attacked, immediate action grant them +2 Shield AC.
Language:
Spells: caster 3, 2/day. DC 13 + spell level.
1) Compel Hostility: immediate, make attack you, 2) Hunter’s Howl: Will save, they become favored enemy, 20 ft burst 3 rd.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 16 Cha 3. BAB: +6.
CMB +7; CMD +26
Feats:
1) Weapon finesse, 2) Dodge, 3) Power attack
Traits: 1) Animal Friend: +1 will save while within 30 ft of animal, 2) Birthmark (+2 trait save vs charm/Compulsion)
Skills:
Survival 3 (3, 3=9), Stealth 5 (3, 5, 8=21), Swim 4 (3, 2=9), Perception 4 (3, 3 , 3=13), Heal 5 (3, 3=11), Climb 3 (3, 2=8)
Gear: 225 gp
Pearl of Power x1 (475 gp), Gauntlet of Str +2 (1.9K gp), Studded Leather +1 (1 K), +1 Heavy Shield (1K), Ring of Pro +1 (2k), Amulet of NA +1 (1.9K gp), +1 weapon
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Wild Empathy +2 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Favored Terrain: +2 Init, Perception, stealth, Survival, Know (geo) Underground.
Favored enemy: Vs creature type Bonus on Bluff, perception, Knowledge, Sense Motive, and survival. As well as hit/damage bonus. Construct +2, Dragon +4
Hunter’s Bond: move action to grant half his favored enemy bonus against a single target of the appropriate type to all allies within 30 feet who can see or hear him. Dur: 3 rd.


Here are some fighters to throw in for some fun. They don't appear to do much damage but when everything is added in, they can wreck some havoc. Also, with all those teamwork feats, they should see some increases in their saves and AC as long as they stick together. They should be able to maneuver well enough to be a threat to just about anything.

x4:
UNBREAKABLES CR 15
Male Human Fighter (Unbreakable) 16
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +19
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 32, touch 16, flat-footed 29. . (+6 armor, +8 shield, +3 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 196 (16d10+80)
Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Stalwart, Unflinching +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +22/+17/+12/+7 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . +4 Wounding Adamantine Longsword +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+10/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +6) +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d8+7/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18/22, Dex 12/16, Con 14/18, Int 14, Wis 14/16, Cha 10
Base Atk +16; CMB +22; CMD 38
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Coordinated Charge, Diehard, Duck and Cover, Endurance, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Weapon Focus: Longsword, Heroic Defiance (2/day), Heroic Recovery (3/day), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lookout, Outflank, Pack Attack, Paired Opportunists, Penetrating Strike, Shake It Off, Shield Focus, Shield Wall, Toughness +16, Weapon Focus: Longsword
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +18, Climb +5, Escape Artist +2, Fly +18, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +21, Perception +19, Ride +2, Stealth +2, Swim +5
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven
SQ Armor Training 2 (Ex), Quick Recovery (Ex), Ring of Evasion, Unlimited Endurance (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +6), +4 Wounding Adamantine Longsword, +5 Shield, Heavy Steel, Arrows (20), Rhino Hide; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Physical Perfection, +4, Boots, Winged, Boots, Winged, Boots, Winged, Boots, Winged, Cloak of Resistance, +5, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ring of Evasion, Ring of Protection, +2
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Heroic Defiance (2/day) - 0/2
Heroic Recovery (3/day) - 0/3
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) You may make up to 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Coordinated Charge You may charge the same foe when an ally does
Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at -1 to -9 HP.
Duck and Cover Share the result of your Ref save die roll with an adjacent ally who also has this feat, but the borrower is knocked prone. Also gain a +2 cover bonus to AC vs. ranged attack if your ally is wielding a shield.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Greater Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 10 points of DR/- or 5 points of DR/?.
Heroic Defiance (2/day) 1/day, delay the onset of a harmful affliction or condition until the end of your next turn.
Heroic Recovery (3/day) 1/day, attempt an extra Fort save against a harmful condition or affliction.
Lookout Act in the surprise rouns if an adjacent ally with this feat can act in the surprise round.
Outflank Flanking bonus increases to +4 if the other flanker also has this feat, and ally gets an AoO if you score a critical hit against the target.
Pack Attack Ally's attack allows you to take a 5-foot step
Paired Opportunists +4 to hit for AoOs if you and an ally with this feat both threaten the target.
Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 5 points of DR/-.
Quick Recovery (Ex) At 11th level, an unbreakable needs only 15 minutes of rest or to be subject to a healing spell or effect to recover from the fatigued condition. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Ring of Evasion
Shake It Off Gain +1 to all saving throws per adjacent ally
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Wall If you are wielding a shield and are adjacent to an ally with a shield and this feat, increase the bonus of your shield by +1, or +2 if the ally's shield is a large or tower shield.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Unflinching +4 (Ex) +4 Will save vs. mind-affecting effects
Unlimited Endurance (Ex) When exhausted, only suffer the effects of fatigued.


I think Bob that the only thing you've proven is that they've managed to put their foot in their mouths. Such a scenario as you laid out would be difficult for any class given the conditions. I'm not even sure a balanced party would fare well.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Kiting is a valid tactic in a video game but I don't really see it's usefulness in actual play. If it won't work against PCs (and it shouldn't most of the time), then it shouldn't work against the opposition very often either.

Rename 'Kiting' to skirmishing, and you've got a basic tactic used in ancient warfare. Add a horse and you've got this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot

Mongol horse archers anyone?

Superior range + superior speed is very hard to stop on an *open* battlefield.

Open being the main condition on this tactic of course- if there is a building, dense forest or *dungeon* nearby they can run for that. Other counters involve stealth to get close. But without a counter, this can get very nasty. Even inside a dungeon, variations on this tactic are still worth keeping in mind.

Note that PCs have an advantage over many monsters in countering this tactic- any human can pick up a bow, and there are many spells with long range. If you are a troll with INT 6, you probably aren't carrying a bow. Same with dire animals, golems or dinosaurs.

Also, fights at bow range ignore many monster abilities.
If you are a bodak, your death gaze is useless if they are more than 30' away. Same with mummies and their despair aura, or the petrifying gaze of a medusa.

Notably, the 3.5 edition tarrasque was very vulnerable to this tactic. No ranged attacks, no flight. A CR20 creature which can be 'kited' by a level 3 Flight spell (or magic carpet). Good luck killing it at that level though!


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I always thought gms like the dungeon so pcs can't always do that.


TarkXT wrote:
I think Bob that the only thing you've proven is that they've managed to put their foot in their mouths. Such a scenario as you laid out would be difficult for any class given the conditions. I'm not even sure a balanced party would fare well.

I don't know how well a balanced party would do either. That wasn't the point I was making. I was trying to show that hyperbole is not an effective argument. If someone makes a claim, then they should be able to support that claim. So far, none have made it "with ease" and only the clerics have a decent chance but they need to be able to channel negative energy and heal with that same energy. That means that they needed to be dhampir. So it took more than just being a caster. It took a very specific race to compliment the class abilities. I'm cool with that. It's not the norm, but it works within the rules.


ertaisoul wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Kiting is a valid tactic in a video game but I don't really see it's usefulness in actual play. If it won't work against PCs (and it shouldn't most of the time), then it shouldn't work against the opposition very often either.

Rename 'Kiting' to skirmishing, and you've got a basic tactic used in ancient warfare. Add a horse and you've got this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot

Mongol horse archers anyone?

Superior range + superior speed is very hard to stop on an *open* battlefield.

Open being the main condition on this tactic of course- if there is a building, dense forest or *dungeon* nearby they can run for that. Other counters involve stealth to get close. But without a counter, this can get very nasty. Even inside a dungeon, variations on this tactic are still worth keeping in mind.

Note that PCs have an advantage over many monsters in countering this tactic- any human can pick up a bow, and there are many spells with long range. If you are a troll with INT 6, you probably aren't carrying a bow. Same with dire animals, golems or dinosaurs.

Also, fights at bow range ignore many monster abilities.
If you are a bodak, your death gaze is useless if they are more than 30' away. Same with mummies and their despair aura, or the petrifying gaze of a medusa.

Notably, the 3.5 edition tarrasque was very vulnerable to this tactic. No ranged attacks, no flight. A CR20 creature which can be 'kited' by a level 3 Flight spell (or magic carpet). Good luck killing it at that level though!

So what happens when the creature decides that it doesn't want to be a pincushion anymore? Can't they just walk away? Would your characters be susceptible to such tactics? If not, why assume that the enemy would? Should it work sometimes? Sure. Should it be assumed to work all the time, even against other sentient creatures? Probably not.

Dark Archive

4 Pallies, would in fact be very powerful; basically no time lost on healing. They are pretty stat-heavy and would probably lack in skill points, but saves cannot be beat. Figure 2 Oath of Vengence bow archers halflings to take out evil at will and 2 Human Holy Tactician melee trip specialists; because, well, Holy Tacticians are amazing (essentially the party would permanently have 2 extra feats each). Could handle pretty much any scenario, and scale well to level. Might have difficulty with Perception (and non-talking skill-based scenarios); they do require Str and Cha at really high levels, so they like to dump Int and/or Wis if possible. I guess the trippers need a 13 int, so would handle that reasonably.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:


So what happens when the creature decides that it doesn't want to be a pincushion anymore? Can't they just walk away? Would your characters be susceptible to such tactics? If not, why assume that the enemy would? Should it work sometimes? Sure. Should it be assumed to work all the time, even against other sentient creatures? Probably not.

If your target walks away, follow it. Keep sniping from range.

As for whether my characters would be susceptible to these style of tactics- Yes, they would, if they didn't plan for it. Google "Tucker's Kobolds" for an example of an advanced version of this tactic in D&D.

I repeat- this tactic was common in the ancient world, against living breathing humans. Here is a link to a battle involving Greek hoplites and tribesmen armed with javelins. The Greeks lost, badly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolian_campaign

You are right that it won't work all the time (only worked that time because the Greeks didn't bring enough ranged troops).

Note however that I never said that it would work all the time.

In fact one of my main arguments was that if you can get it to work for only a fragment of your encounters, it will make the rest of the battles much easier (since you have more spells/hp left).
Again, it's a tactic PCs (and monsters) should always consider.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

At low levels, yes. Wizards(casters) have a hard time. But you can't seriously tell me that the ability to bend the laws of reality by around level 4 spells is equal to the ability to swing a sword.

Silver Crusade

The only way you are going to prove anything would be to have several neutral DM's that will run a campaign each. Tally up the results and compare in the end.

Most of the time, casters will not have knowledge of what is going to happen before hand. Coming up with scenarios in these forums is pointless. It doesn't simulate a real campaign.


Ævux wrote:
At low levels, yes. Wizards(casters) have a hard time. But you can't seriously tell me that the ability to bend the laws of reality by around level 4 spells is equal to the ability to swing a sword.

By the time they're doing that Barbarians are shattering their altered reality and substituting their own.

shallowsoul wrote:

The only way you are going to prove anything would be to have several neutral DM's that will run a campaign each. Tally up the results and compare in the end.

Most of the time, casters will not have knowledge of what is going to happen before hand. Coming up with scenarios in these forums is pointless. It doesn't simulate a real campaign.

It's also not a perfect solution. Afterall it may take a long time for a campaign to come to a conclusion tabeltop gaming what it is. The series of encounters idea needs to be supplemented not with total combat encounters but a number of non combat challenges as well. Environmental hazards, social encounters, skill checks etc. etc. This is the closest you can come without actually running the campaign.


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TarkXT wrote:
Ævux wrote:
At low levels, yes. Wizards(casters) have a hard time. But you can't seriously tell me that the ability to bend the laws of reality by around level 4 spells is equal to the ability to swing a sword.
By the time they're doing that Barbarians are shattering their altered reality and substituting their own.

AM KICKING REASON TO CURB UP IN HERE.


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Ævux wrote:

At low levels, yes. Wizards(casters) have a hard time. But you can't seriously tell me that the ability to bend the laws of reality by around level 4 spells is equal to the ability to swing a sword.

This is probably why you are having a hard time with playing fighters. If you relegate them to simply swinging a sword, then you have reduced them to being very mundane. If you realize that they can not only swing a sword, but they can use more combat options than other classes, then you start to see their potential. No, a sword isn't as powerful as even a fireball, but it is consistent. The wizard will start to use his options up and will need to rest to regain his options. The fighter maintains his options and only needs a recharge often in the form of healing. He can even continue to fight fatigued, he only has a small penalty, so he can fight for days on end as long as he can heal (there are no rules concerning resting that apply except to regain hit points, which is very easy). Is that plausible in a campaign? Probably not. It is certainly bending the laws of reality though.

Some things that fighters, and only fighters, can do (you will obviously need to build the character for these and he won't be able to do them all):

1) Ignore damage reduction by being awesome
2) Use two different critical feats at the same time
3) Make it even harder for casters that get too close
4) Make an attack of opportunity against anyone making a 5-foot step
5) Have Damage Reduction that stacks with adamantine armor
6) Can shrug off critical hits 50% of the time without spending money, feats, or having his armor become broken
7) Can become completely immune to critical hits and sneak attacks as an extraordinary ability and his armor cannot be sundered
8) Alter the type of damage and threat range of improvised weapons
9) Use some combat maneuvers against two opponents as a single action
10) Automatically confirm critical hits
11) Turn a lance into a double weapon and be able to use both ends without having to magically enhance them separately thereby saving money
12) As a standard action, attack a mount and rider without having to sacrifice AC as if using Cleave
13) Can leap from his mount, as a charge, and maintain all his mounted feats even though he is technically no longer mounted
14) Can use Aid Another with multiple allies at the same time
15) Maintains Dex, AC, and attack rolls while grappling and can still make attacks of opportunity while grappled or if a creature is attempting a grapple, regardless of the opponent's feats
16) Can use some combat maneuvers to trigger other combat maneuvers and possibly gain even more attacks (at a bonus) because of it
17) Can become immune to nonlethal damage and the exhausted, fatigued, and staggered conditions allowing him to force march forever and sleep in heavy armor if he chooses
18) Only 15 minutes of rest or to be subject to a healing spell or effect to recover from the fatigued condition
19) Can have an ability to never be exhausted, only fatigued
20) Can gain complete immunity to mind-affecting effects as an extraordinary ability
21) Can use combat maneuvers at range
22) Attack all creatures in a 15-radius burst with a bow, very similar to a whirlwind attack with a melee weapon (which he could also have the feats to take if he chose)
23) Can catch and fire an arrow shot at him
24) Add some Dexterity to damage with crossbows
25) Fire a crossbow bolt through one target and hit the target behind it and can continue this so long as he critically hits each target
26) Can combine a full attack with a regular move, possibly attacking multiple creatures that are more than 5 feet apart
27) Can Take 20 on an Acrobatics check
28) Can full attack as a standard action or even whirlwind attack as a standard action
29) Can use polearms and spears as one-handed weapons
30) Can use a tower shield to grant an ally up to a +8 cover bonus to AC
31) Can provide improved evasion to an ally or simply evasion to all allies. This is an extraordinary ability
32) Flank from any square adjacent to him, even if that square is occupied by something, including a wall
33) Can use his shield bonus on Reflex saves
34) Can make a single attack that is an automatic threat
35) Can use a standard action to make a single attack with two weapons, allowing him to use a move action still
36) Can use two weapons on an attack of opportunity
37) Can automatically confirm critical hits
38) Can change out feats that no longer are useful
39) Can never be disarmed
40) Can increase the damage multiplier on his favorite weapon

Yeah, a wizard can do a lot, I won't deny that, and they are very powerful. What I will say is that the fighter literally can do this stuff all day as extraordinary abilities. If all he needs is some healing spells to keep going, I think that's a lot better than needing at least 2 hours of sleep (assuming a ring of sustenance is owned) and/or needing to have a way to be safe while resting to reload.


I'm interested in 20 there, bob. What's that one? o-o


Trinam wrote:
I'm interested in 20 there, bob. What's that one? o-o

Unbreakable archetype at level 20.


Oooh. Shiney.


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Here's a level 10 group of fighters I'm still working on, but the framework is there.

GLORY:

Male Half-Orc Fighter (Weapon Master) 10
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Scent; Perception +12
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 20. . (+6 armor, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 104 (10d10+30)
Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +10
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 Adamantine Greataxe +19/+14 (1d12+24/19-20/x3) and
. . Bite (Razortusk) +8 (1d4+6/20/x2)
Special Attacks Reliable Strike: Greataxe (2/day), Weapon Training +2: Greataxe
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 20/22, Dex 10, Con 14/16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +16; CMD 28 (31 vs. Disarm31 vs. Sunder)
Feats Eldritch Claws, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Improved Critical: Greataxe, Iron Will, Keen Scent, Power Attack -3/+6, Razortusk, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Weapon Specialization: Greataxe
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +5, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +2, Perception +12, Ride +12, Stealth -1, Swim +5
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day), Weapon Guard +3: Greataxe (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Adamantine Greataxe, Rhino Hide; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Physical Might, STR & CON +2, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Figurine, Ebony Fly, Potion of Enlarge Person (4), Ring of Protection, +2
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/4
Reliable Strike: Greataxe (2/day) (Ex) - 0/2
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Eldritch Claws Your natural weapons are considered both magic and silver for purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Reliable Strike: Greataxe (2/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Guard +3: Greataxe (Ex) +3 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +2: Greataxe (Ex) +2 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.

--------------------

KNOWITALL:

Male Elf Fighter (Tactician) 10
LN Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +9; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 15, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +3 dodge)
hp 54 (10d10-10)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +6
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +3 Guisarme +14/+9 (2d4+8/20/x3)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Pole Arms
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12/16, Dex 14, Con 9, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 12
Base Atk +10; CMB +13 (+17 Tricking+17 Repositioning+17 Tripping); CMD 28 (30 vs. Dirty Trick30 vs. Reposition30 vs. Trip)
Feats Breadth of Experience, Combat Expertise +/-3, Cosmopolitan: Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Reposition, Greater Trip, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Initiative, Improved Reposition, Improved Trip
Traits Child of the Temple: Knowledge (Religion), Savannah Child: Knowledge (Nature)
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +2, Diplomacy +14, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Knowledge (Arcana) +15, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +15, Knowledge (History) +15, Knowledge (Local) +15, Knowledge (Nature) +15, Knowledge (Planes) +15, Knowledge (Religion) +15, Linguistics +12, Perception +4, Ride +1, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +1, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +11
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ Armor Training 2 (Ex), Elven Magic, Tactician () 8r (2/day) (Ex)
Combat Gear +3 Breastplate, +3 Guisarme; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Dispel Magic, Wand of Enervation, Wand of Restoration, Wand of Scorching Ray (CL 11)
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Tactician () 8r (2/day) (Ex) - 0/2
Wand of Cure Light Wounds - 0/50
Wand of Cure Light Wounds - 0/50
Wand of Dispel Magic - 0/9
Wand of Enervation - 0/15
Wand of Restoration - 0/10
Wand of Scorching Ray (CL 11) - 0/10
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Greater Dirty Trick +2 to Dirty Trick, penalty lasts longer and takes a standard action to remove.
Greater Reposition +2 to Reposition, target provokes AoO from your allies.
Greater Trip +2 to Trip, target provokes AoO when tripped.
Improved Dirty Trick Dirty Trick at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Reposition Reposition at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Tactician () 8r (2/day) (Ex) Grant the use of your Tactical feats to your allies within 30'.
Weapon Training: Pole Arms +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms

--------------------

ROG:

Male Half-Orc Fighter (Cad) 10
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +11
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19. . (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 84 (10d10+20)
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +6
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Flail, Heavy +17/+12 (1d10+9/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +5) +14/+9 (1d8+6/20/x3)
Special Attacks Razor-Sharp Chair Leg
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18/20, Dex 14/16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15 (+24 Tricking+24 Disarming+24 Stealing); CMD 28 (35 vs. Dirty Trick35 vs. Disarm35 vs. Steal)
Feats Catch Off-Guard, Combat Expertise +/-3, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Deft Hands, Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Disarm, Greater Steal, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Steal, Quick Dirty Trick
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +4, Disable Device +18, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Intimidate +1, Perception +11, Ride +2, Sleight of Hand +19, Stealth +20, Swim +4
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Orc
SQ Deadly Surprise (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Payback +2 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +5), +2 Flail, Heavy, +3 Shadow Chain Shirt, Arrows (40); Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Physical Might, STR & DEX +2, Boots of Speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of Resistance, +2, Efficient Quiver (41 @ 9 lbs), Thieves' tools, masterwork
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/40
Boots of Speed (10 rounds/day) - 0/10
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Catch Off-Guard Proficient with improvised melee weapons. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against your improvised weapons.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) You may make up to 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Surprise (Ex) When you hit an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, you may attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver as part of the attack.
Greater Dirty Trick +2 to Dirty Trick, penalty lasts longer and takes a standard action to remove.
Greater Disarm +2 to disarm, weapon lands 15' away.
Greater Steal +2 to Steal, target does not notice
Improved Dirty Trick Dirty Trick at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Steal Stealat +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Payback +2 (Ex) +2 to hit and damage any creature that has attacked the cad since the beginning of his last turn.
Quick Dirty Trick May perform a dirty trick in place of one of your melee attacks
Razor-Sharp Chair Leg (Ex) Improvised weapons have 19-20/x2 crit range and can do bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.

--------------------

SALVO:

Male Elf Fighter (Archer) 10
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +10; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +17
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 74 (10d10)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +6
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +10/+10/+5 (1d4+8/19-20/x2) and
. . Longsword +10/+5 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged Oathbow (Str +2) +16/+16/+11 (1d8+14/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18/22, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Elven Accuracy, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Stabbing Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Skills Acrobatics +16, Perception +17, Stealth +21
Languages Common, Elven, Sylvan
SQ Elven Magic, Safe Shot (Ex), Trick Shot: Disarm, Trick Shot: Sunder
Combat Gear +1 Seeking Arrows (50), +2 Shadow Mithral Chain Shirt, Arrows (40), Dagger, Longsword, Oathbow (Str +2); Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Efficient Quiver (40 @ 6 lbs)
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
+1 Seeking Arrows - 0/50
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Elven Accuracy Reroll miss chance due to concealment.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Safe Shot (Ex) You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with your Archetype's focused weapon (Bows or Crossbows).
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Stabbing Shot Full attack with a bow: make a melee attack against an adjacent target. If that attack hits, the target is pushed back 5'. All attacks this round suffer a -2 penalty to hit.
Trick Shot: Disarm Disarm with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.
Trick Shot: Sunder Sunder with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.


I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I'm only allowing 4 summoner parties if their Eidelons can merge together to form voltron.


I'm going to sit down with a group of 4 cavaliers. I have some ideas that will make for some amusing times. So far I have.

Order of the Lion Halfling Beast Rider Luring Cavalier
Order of the Tome Human Strategist Luring Cavalier
Order of the Sword Halfling Beast Rider Emissary
Order of the Dragon Human Standard Bearer (possibly Strategist as well)

I'll produce characters at several levels. Likely 1, 6, 9, 12, and 18.

Going to be interesting to see hwo it turns out when im done.


Surprising no one, I want to see a group of four barbarians.

I may go and sit down and do it. But it would be silly.


AM 1,2,3,and 4?


...no, you only need one AM. The others are for other stuff.


Wonder if the guy doing this would let you make a 3.5 trapsmasher?

Then you have a barbarian who finds traps and sunders them apart no matter what they are.


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rat_ bastard wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I'm only allowing 4 summoner parties if their Eidelons can merge together to form voltron.

But there were five lions...

Dark Archive

I'll only join your team of Voltron-forming synthasists if my Eidilon gets to be the head.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I am still waiting to see what the results are of some of these parties!


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How bad is it that I neglected to add traits and can't find it in me to care?

A couple of them would be pretty huge, too, like giving the UMD trait to the Monk that needs it.


I just want to brag about the greatness of fighters when they get their moment. A two hand barbarian, 2 paladins, and a fighter, all with two handed weapons and all just second level bumrushed a CR 8 green dragon, using a tribute to get close. They all hit. It tried to jump back to hit them all with a breathweapon, giving up an aoo from each. They all hit again, dropping it to -3 hp. It was amazing.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm interested in how my Inquisitors do.


Necro - so who won?

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