Being Unique - My Dislike of the Term Special Snowflake


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Kileanna wrote:

The difference is what kind of outcast you are playing. Being the kind of different who wants to be accepted and works hard to fit can be a good reason to develope strong ties with the rest of the party. Roleplaying a character's quest for acceptance is very rewarding if done right.

But if you are playing the kind of outcast who doesn't trust anybody and doesn't want to, offends everybody pretending not to know the culture and acts weird all the time just to prove how special he is, then you're being disruptive.

I ran a game where 2 of the characters were half orc/half dragon brothers. Based on the description, unless someone made a very hard roll, the NPCs didn't know what they were. As long as you are playing an NPC as a person, rather than a self destructive moron, they should not really care. If you don't want to run into burning buildings to rescue people, you have no business getting upset about hispanic, trans, firemen.


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What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As a PFS GM, I try to figure out how the players see their characters by interacting with them and asking them to introduce themselves to the group in character.

Example: A character introduced himself to the table in a bored tone. "You see a giant yellow Tengu."

No personality mentioned. No discussion of traits or other things. Just the color.

So I raised an eyebrow and asked, "Yellow? That's interesting. Do you dye your feathers?"

Suddenly the player perked up at the question. "Yes, yes I do!"

So... Another question from me: "Why do you dye your feathers? Are you hiding from someone? Or doing yellow for some sort of religious or cultural tradition, or... are you a bit of a dandy?"

The player answered: "Of course I'm a dandy! I'm a yellow because blonds have more fun!"

___

This let me know what I needed to know about how to handle the character. They were entering Whitethrone, an evil city where slavery was legal. I had one of the guards notice immediately notice the Yellow Tengu, and ask if she could buy the pretty bird. The party told her the bird wasn't for sale. So she demanded a feather as an entrance fee. The tengu character says, "You want my feather, you'll need to give me a finger. I only trade body parts for other body parts."

I tell them: "The guard looks disappointed. She looks down into her bag. 'Aw! I was saving these for later, but...' She pulls a human finger out of the bag, and hands it to you." The party burst into shocked laughter, as suddenly they realized this is a town that casually accepts human cannibalism. (One player gasped, "She asked for the bird, then gave us the finger!")

It was the start to great RP moments for everyone, as that finger got passed around and used throughout the game as a trophy and a bribe in future encounters with guards. It set the tone, in a darkly humorous way, for what an evil town Whitethrone is. I gave this character one moment in the spotlight where he could shine, but also helped him define who he was beyond just being a yellow bird. It also gave everyone else a chance to understand how this town works, and heightened the stakes for everyone.

Knowing how players see their characters can give you the clues to know how to handle their unique characters and give them that 2-3 minutes to shine without it being the same stupid encounter, over and over.

Like Chris Mortika said, you can skip over anything that is boring or old. Good roleplay is not repetitive, and can be quick little dashes of spice. You just have to talk with your players and find that balance.

Hmm


Roflmao!

You should add that story to the Best One-liner That Made the Table Laugh thread!

Also, excellent example. :)


Hmm wrote:

They were entering Whitethrone, an evil city where slavery was legal. I had one of the guards notice immediately notice the Yellow Tengu, and ask if she could buy the pretty bird. The party told her the bird wasn't for sale. So she demanded a feather as an entrance fee. The tengu character says, "You want my feather, you'll need to give me a finger. I only trade body parts for other body parts."

I tell them: "The guard looks disappointed. She looks down into her bag. 'Aw! I was saving these for later, but...' She pulls a human finger out of the bag, and hands it to you." The party burst into shocked laughter, as suddenly they realized this is a town that casually accepts human cannibalism. (One player gasped, "She asked for the bird, then gave us the finger!")

It was the start to great RP moments for everyone, as that finger got passed around and used throughout the game as a trophy and a bribe in future encounters with guards. It set the tone, in a darkly humorous way, for what an evil town Whitethrone is. I gave this character one moment in the spotlight where he could shine, but also helped him define who he was...

I love how you handled the situation here. Gave some spotlight to the different character without hampering the game, making everybody on the table have fun, not only the tengu, and letting the newcomers ser how Whitethrone works.

And I had a big laugh reading this.
I have to ask: was Greta the guard who asked for the yellow bird? Sounds like Greta.
I was playing an elven changeling there. She grew among superstitious people who saw her mismatched eyes as a sign of ill omen. At that time she was wearing a cape who made winter wolves mistake her for one of their kind. The funny part is that mismatched eyes were a good portent among them so my character suddenly went from having been ostracized her whole life to being treated as some kind of nobility. I liked too how my GM dealt with it too. It was only a slight change on how NPCs reacted to my character but he didn't make a big deal about it, he just carried on and let us make our own conclusions on how the society worked there. It gave us a "we're no longer in Kansas" feeling.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yep, it was Greta. What a fun NPC. :)

Hmm


Hmm wrote:

Yep, it was Greta. What a fun NPC. :)

Hmm

We took Greta with us. Poor girl was killed in Artrosa and raised as an undead. I miss her.


Kileanna wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Yep, it was Greta. What a fun NPC. :)

Hmm

We took Greta with us. Poor girl was killed in Artrosa and raised as an undead. I miss her.

Well, you can use Cyclic Reincarnation. Young Greta... it will be funny, I promise!!


Dalindra wrote:
Kileanna wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Yep, it was Greta. What a fun NPC. :)

Hmm

We took Greta with us. Poor girl was killed in Artrosa and raised as an undead. I miss her.
Well, you can use Cyclic Reincarnation. Young Greta... it will be funny, I promise!!

A cute puppy! (Who tried to seduce 2 characters of our group).

EDIT: Wow, we're derailing this badly. I can see how Reign of Winter and Snowflakes could be related but I think we're just going offtopic.

Back to topic (sort of), in Price of Courage (Dragonlance module) there is a half-umber hulk half-dragonspawn thing who is called Snowflake. Do you think it is some sort of pun?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think that derailment is not necessarily a bad fate for this kind of thread.

Interestingly, I imported Greta into a PFS Scenario, to provide a guard with personality where before there had only been a cipher.

Hmm


I have no problem with the term special snowflake. I can't remember having a snowflake character in one of my groups for a long time. Special snowflake characters tend to get negative attention from me (the GM), and as I don't pull punches, when said snowflake character buys the farm, I strongly encourage the player to apply their creative juices in a more "conventional" direction when creating replacement characters. Usually, the player takes the hint.
Often the munchkin powergamers looking for an edge, are the biggest offenders.


Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.

I just grease said character in brutal fashion. Said player then leaves on his own.


Killer_GM wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.
I just grease said character in brutal fashion. Said player then leaves on his own.

I'd just ask if I got a bonus on my escape artist checks. Pr grapple checks.

:)


Killer_GM wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.
I just grease said character in brutal fashion. Said player then leaves on his own.

I dont have time or desire for those in game shenanigans.


Hmm wrote:

I think that derailment is not necessarily a bad fate for this kind of thread.

Interestingly, I imported Greta into a PFS Scenario, to provide a guard with personality where before there had only been a cipher.

Hmm

That's cool. If other players knew RoW they could recognize her and that adds some sense of continuity to the game.

When I'm GMing if I can put a character who is known to some of my players in place of a random one or even replace an important character for another known to the PCs who can fit the role I like to do it and my players love it, specially when it's their former PCs making a cameo.


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Greta? Thats my Catfolk Samurai's girlfriend... well sort of. Its a long distance thing right now. We were talking about snowflakes right?


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'Silence' wrote:
Greta? Thats my Catfolk Samurai's girlfriend... well sort of. Its a long distance thing right now. We were talking about snowflakes right?

Catfolk... Winter Wolf... Winter Catwolf... If you ever have children they will be special snowflakes for sure xD


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Who wants to play Dragon and Donkeys' hatchling-foal-things?
Dragonkeys? Donkagons? <ponder>

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

In the world of Shrek, playing a half-dragon donkey would not really be all that odd a choice. As a GM I wouldn't even bat an eye at okaying that for that setting.


Yesterday I had a conversation about Dracotaurs and Minonians. In our Dragonlance setting we have a male minotaur NPC and a female draconian NPC, so we started to talk about what their children would be called. They are not even a couple and they won't be so it was pretty pointless. No Dracotaurs for us.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kileanna wrote:
Yesterday I had a conversation about Dracotaurs and Minonians. In our Dragonlance setting we have a male minotaur NPC and a female draconian NPC, so we started to talk about what their children would be called. They are not even a couple and they won't be so it was pretty pointless. No Dracotaurs for us.

IIRC, aren't draconians created through a ritual used to corrupt good (metallic) dragon eggs and not normal procreation?


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Dragonchess Player wrote:
Kileanna wrote:
Yesterday I had a conversation about Dracotaurs and Minonians. In our Dragonlance setting we have a male minotaur NPC and a female draconian NPC, so we started to talk about what their children would be called. They are not even a couple and they won't be so it was pretty pointless. No Dracotaurs for us.
IIRC, aren't draconians created through a ritual used to corrupt good (metallic) dragon eggs and not normal procreation?

They were originally created by a corruption of metallic dragon's eggs. A bunch of draconians were born from a single egg and they were all male. But later they found that female draconians existed. They were keeping them from their male counterparts to keep them controlled and avoid them breeding and spreading as a race.

But they now have males and females (through females are less common and males tend to be protective with them) and they breed normally. A few of them have their own small nation and only want to live in peace.
I find them to be a very interesting race because of their unnatural origins, their quest for freedom and self determination as a race.


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Catfolk samurai does he also make pizza?


Not if they come from Patera, the invisible moon where they ride on domesticated sabertooths.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Catfolk samurai does he also make pizza?

We we're thinking of setting up a Hibachi wagon after dealing with some witches.


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This pizza you speak of? do you like giant mantis as a topping? I have a lot of that extra. But yes swing on by the Future habachi doomwagon yes yes for the noms.


The alt right is now using "snowflake" excessively.
The proper retort is "Whatever Fascist!"

Taking Special Snowflake as your own is acceptable. A white furred Kitsune Magus can go by the name Snowflake.


Goth Guru wrote:

The alt right is now using "snowflake" excessively.

The proper retort is "Whatever Fascist!"

yeap the internets warriors are still clinging to "libtard" too. I can see now why folks are extra peeved with the label snowflake.


Killer_GM wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.
I just grease said character in brutal fashion. Said player then leaves on his own.

There's not much as Fun(tm) as a GM who can't just tell players what they will or won't allow, and instead let them waste time and paper before murdering their character.


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Goth Guru wrote:

The alt right is now using "snowflake" excessively.

The proper retort is "Whatever Fascist!"

I prefer "You know what you call a lot of snowflakes moving in the same direction? An AVALANCHE."


Rysky wrote:
Ali, the point of contention between us is that you're demanding bigotry be part of the game. Think that over, please.

If you have declared 'race x suffers from bigotry' and then the player insists on playing that race THEY are the ones insisting that bigotry be part of the game in question.


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Also, can people stop trying to slyly drop politics into here? Pretty please?

Silver Crusade

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RDM42 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Ali, the point of contention between us is that you're demanding bigotry be part of the game. Think that over, please.
If you have declared 'race x suffers from bigotry' and then the player insists on playing that race THEY are the ones insisting that bigotry be part of the game in question.

That's the thing I was responding to (nice couple months later response btw), it wasn't a case of the DM stating the race suffers from bigotry in their setting, but a player picking a race that suffers from bigotry in most settings and asking the GM to enforce that bigotry in their campaign.

Which is completely different from the GM stating beforehand that a race is subject to bigotry in their setting/campaign and the player choosing to play it anyway.

Dark Archive

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RDM42 wrote:
Also, can people stop trying to slyly drop politics into here? Pretty please?

This is in America, you might as well ask them to not drop words.

Frankly, I'm happy when a post doesn't have Twitter hashtags in it somewhere. :-)


Cap'n Yesterday Divided by Zero wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Also, can people stop trying to slyly drop politics into here? Pretty please?

This is in America, you might as well ask them to not drop words.

Frankly, I'm happy when a post doesn't have Twitter hashtags in it somewhere. :-)

#NoHastags #MakeHashbrownsnotHashtags #CaptainYesterdayforPresident.


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Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.

Actual question in a FR Facebook group for Adventurers League Play. Because apparently drow are now considered a standard race choice there.

"It says that one out of every 20 drow is a drow noble. Can I play a Drow Noble if I roll a nat 20?"


1d20 ⇒ 15

F&&$eth!


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.

Actual question in a FR Facebook group for Adventurers League Play. Because apparently drow are now considered a standard race choice there.

"It says that one out of every 20 drow is a drow noble. Can I play a Drow Noble if I roll a nat 20?"

What is the difference in Drow with 5E? In 3E it was usually an indication the player wanted to be especially unique plus super powerful and basically ruin everyones fun.


Grognardy Dangerfield wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.

Actual question in a FR Facebook group for Adventurers League Play. Because apparently drow are now considered a standard race choice there.

"It says that one out of every 20 drow is a drow noble. Can I play a Drow Noble if I roll a nat 20?"

What is the difference in Drow with 5E? In 3E it was usually an indication the player wanted to be especially unique plus super powerful and basically ruin everyones fun.

Apparently in Adventure's League, Drow are now normalized members of adventuring society.

You're right about the player wanting to be super powerful as Drow Noble still get abilities above and beyond the norm.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.

Actual question in a FR Facebook group for Adventurers League Play. Because apparently drow are now considered a standard race choice there.

"It says that one out of every 20 drow is a drow noble. Can I play a Drow Noble if I roll a nat 20?"

It means a lot less in 5E than it would in Pathfinder.

In Pathfinder, a Drow Noble is a separate and much more powerful version of a race that is already slightly more powerful than an Elf.

In 5E, a Drow is simply an Elf sub-race on a par with the other Elf sub-races. The only way that "Drow Noble" has any meaning is that you select a Noble background, which is not notably more powerful than any other background.


Rysky wrote:


That's the thing I was responding to (nice couple months later response btw), it wasn't a case of the DM stating the race suffers from bigotry in their setting, but a player picking a race that suffers from bigotry in most settings and asking the GM to enforce that bigotry in their campaign.

Which is completely different from the GM stating beforehand that a race is subject to bigotry in their setting/campaign and the player choosing to play it anyway.

On the other hand, "in most settings" is the default until otherwise stated. Especially when "in most settings" is what is in the books. Reasonable expectation in my opinion.

Though personally, I don't see any reason to have races if you treat everyone like humans with cosmetics. If race is ignored, it is pointless.

Silver Crusade

TheAlicornSage wrote:
Rysky wrote:


That's the thing I was responding to (nice couple months later response btw), it wasn't a case of the DM stating the race suffers from bigotry in their setting, but a player picking a race that suffers from bigotry in most settings and asking the GM to enforce that bigotry in their campaign.

Which is completely different from the GM stating beforehand that a race is subject to bigotry in their setting/campaign and the player choosing to play it anyway.

On the other hand, "in most settings" is the default until otherwise stated. Especially when "in most settings" is what is in the books. Reasonable expectation in my opinion.

Though personally, I don't see any reason to have races if you treat everyone like humans with cosmetics. If race is ignored, it is pointless.

Actually, "what everyone is comfortable with" is default.

And really? If there's no bigotry there's no point to other races? Seriously? There's a LOT more to race than just whatever bigotry they face.


"Actually, "what everyone is comfortable with" is default. "

On the contrary, this is not defined, and has no popular answer. That is why you need to discuss what everyone is or is not comfortable with prior to starting.

"If there's no bigotry there's no point to other races?"

I never said "bigotry." I said it needs to be acknowledged. Big difference.

For example, in one game, I had to handle the unicorn because I was the only female character. Wasn't negative, nor bigotry, but it did make it so that what I was actually mattered and made a difference.


TheAlicornSage wrote:

"Actually, "what everyone is comfortable with" is default. "

On the contrary, this is not defined, and has no popular answer. That is why you need to discuss what everyone is or is not comfortable with prior to starting.

"If there's no bigotry there's no point to other races?"

I never said "bigotry." I said it needs to be acknowledged. Big difference.

For example, in one game, I had to handle the unicorn because I was the only female character. Wasn't negative, nor bigotry, but it did make it so that what I was actually mattered and made a difference.

ug, buh, gah, dur so many things...


What things? How about you just pick 3.

---
A choice that does the same thing no matter what you chose, is meaningless and counts as a choice only by technicality.

A game requires choices that actually matter, otherwise it isn't a game.


TheAlicornSage wrote:


A game requires choices that actually matter, otherwise it isn't a game.

Technicality police reporting: Choice is not necessary for a game as seen in many games of chance in cards and dice.

Removing the technicality police hat though, I do see your point in the context of PnP games. That said though, it still is ultimately a playstyle thing. There's differences between joining Second Darkness with a Drow PC and expecting no issues and doing some goofy pick up game with a goblin, an android, and a drow fighting crime or something.


I think a choice should always make a difference, no matter if it's big or small, if it doesn't then there's no point in making it.
If you're playing a different race and it feels like playing a human then there's no difference, from the RP POW from playing a human.
But it doesn't necessarily mean bigotry, there are many ways of acknowledging the differences of each member of the party without putting too much focus into or harassing the weirdo.
Also, a player might want to portray the bigotry and mistrust, which is not the same as supporting bigotry.
My witch changeling was created as an outsider among elves, as they thought her to be an ill omen. I was OK with that and I made her goal to find a place where people accepted her. When she met the PC group she developed strong bonds towards them and found her place. I think it's nothing like supporting bigotry or getting too much spotlight, just giving your character some motivations. I think anything that helps the character to develope closer bonds to other party members is often a good thing.


"Choice is not necessary for a game as seen in many games of chance in cards and dice."

Even in games of chance, choice is vital. Poker is very strategic, when do you fold or bluff, how much do you bet, etc.

Even true random gambling like slot machines (which barely rate as games) always have the choice to place a bet or not, then you see the outcome of that choice and that choice is the difference between gambling and theft. Mind you, gambling on things like horse races, craps, roulette, etc often have elements of strategic choice beyond choosing how much money to risk.


TheAlicornSage wrote:

"Choice is not necessary for a game as seen in many games of chance in cards and dice."

Even in games of chance, choice is vital. Poker is very strategic, when do you fold or bluff, how much do you bet, etc.

Even true random gambling like slot machines (which barely rate as games) always have the choice to place a bet or not, then you see the outcome of that choice and that choice is the difference between gambling and theft. Mind you, gambling on things like horse races, craps, roulette, etc often have elements of strategic choice beyond choosing how much money to risk.

I have come to the decision that your OPINIONS about gaming are not of any interest to me. I'm sorry I made the comment above. I have nothing else to say. Good luck, and good gaming to you.


TheAlicornSage wrote:

"Choice is not necessary for a game as seen in many games of chance in cards and dice."

Even in games of chance, choice is vital. Poker is very strategic, when do you fold or bluff, how much do you bet, etc.

Even true random gambling like slot machines (which barely rate as games) always have the choice to place a bet or not, then you see the outcome of that choice and that choice is the difference between gambling and theft. Mind you, gambling on things like horse races, craps, roulette, etc often have elements of strategic choice beyond choosing how much money to risk.

I was speaking in terms of things like War and Chutes and Ladders regarding things that have absolutely no choice beyond a Wargames esque choosing to play it or not.

(For the record, neither of the things I listed are good games by any stretch or definition, but they do exist)

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