I don't know what to do with a player


Advice

Dark Archive

Hey All, I am sorry about this being long but I got a bit of a problem that I need advise on. I joined a group a little over a year ago. They played 3.5 & 5e. But I got them to play in my Pathfinder game. It was okay but one player who is a devoted 3.5 player is causing problems & it's the dumbest of problems.

In my game someone in the group wanted to use 2 weapon fighting but he moved more than 5ft so I said he couldn't because 2 weapon fighting was a full attack action. The problem player yelled & screamed "That's why I hate PF because of stupid rules like that!" Which then I said it was the same way with 3e & 3.5. He said I was wrong, I said look it up. He did. He then moved on, not saying I was right but I didn't care.

Then in my game they had a fight with rogues. Rogues got initiative so they stabbed at his paladin. I asked what his flat footed AC was. He yelled that it shouldn't be flat footed because he wasn't surprised. Where I said you are flat footed until you act in the round. He started bad mouthing PF because of "Stupid Rules" like that. Where I said it's been that way since 3e. Where he didn't believe me, so we had to look it up & I was right. So he said he was gonna start using that "New"rule, where I said it wasn't new it's been around since 2000. He didn't enjoy that. Maybe I should have taken the high ground but...

Over the weekend he complained about in PF the spell Lesser Restoration took 3 rounds to cast. I told him it was the same in 3.5 & of course he didn't believe me.

And his, I guess hatred, of me is spilling over in his 5e game because he is showing VAST amounts of disfavor towards me while showing an amazing amount of favor towards everyone else.

Plus I had to quit running my game because he sabotaged it. He decided, at 1st level, to get the entire thieves guild in town to go after them by attacking them. He was playing his paladin lawful stupid & said he had to destroy evil. So now the entire thieves guild has a price on the players head. And I thought of many ways to fix this. But then I thought, even if I fix this, he will just do something else, Then I fix that, then something else & so on. So even though I REALLY, REALLY love to GM I can't because of him. I don't know what to do so any advise would be welcome. I am even thinking of just quitting the only problem is that in my area it's slim pickins so that means no gaming whatsoever.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

If the player says that they hate Pathfinder so much, you should probably just not play Pathfinder with them - or any games, really, it sounds like you're having a miserable time. Potentially you could try to address the hostility you're feeling. Let them know, "Hey, I feel like we're butting heads. What can I do to resolve this so that we're both having a good time?" The answer may be that you can't agree on a play style that's good for both of you, in which case you just shouldn't play with them.

No gaming is better than bad gaming. And even though you have slim options, you may be able to find more people with searching and patience. You could also try online games.


Thats rough. Such a devoted 3/3.5 player should know the rules a little better.

The obvious suggestion of course is to talk to him. If the player is as you describe, that might not fix everything. It seems personal, and a conversation could either bring that into the open and make it better or it could just aggravate him. Only one way to find out! If you're not ready for that conversation, talk to the other players and guage how they feel about the outbursts and your adherance to the rules that have existed for many years.

Years ago I joined a group where the GM didn't know the rules as well as me. In my normal group it was normal to put forward insight on a rule you are familiar with. In this new group, that didn't happen so much. I noticed some unease after speaking up a couple times, and thereafter let things slide unless I was asked or was able to bring it up after the session was over. Ultimately, this change I chose to make didn't lessen my fun at the table. The GM wasn't out to screw the players and was just looser in how certain actions resolved. Some groups are fine doing things they was they always have. I'm sure my normal group has a few rules we either ignore or implement imperfectly.

Scarab Sages

5 people marked this as a favorite.

This guy sounds like quite the moron. Don't retreat, that's not fair - he deserves to be kicked out.

As someone who's repeatedly suffered various degrees of ostracism, I don't say that lightly - but this guy doesn't sound like he might be misunderstood or like he has any sort of valuable alternate perspective, he honestly sounds narrow-minded, stupid, bad at the game, and perhaps even a manipulative bully (i.e. buttering everyone else up while treating you like dirt in your 5th Edition game).

Make your case to the rest of the group. If they're worth anything, they'll side with you. If not, they don't deserve you - either way, do not just quietly submit to his abuse.

Silver Crusade

if he insists on being such a brat you should boot him from your table

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well the problem with getting him kicked is that they all have been friends for years & I am the newest. And the issue with talking to him is that he is delusional. On the flat footed until you act thing. The next game he was quoting "Me" the rule as if he knew it all along & I didn't know it.

This all started when a player in the group said that I was the best GM at the table, while this guy was at the table. I knew that was trouble & I wish he never said that. I don't even think I am a better GM I am just a different one. My games are story driven where I mesh the backgrounds of the players into my story. His games are all powergaming hack n slash with very little to no story. We go into dungeon, we kill underlings, we fight boss battle, he drops gem that leads us to next level, we fight underlings, we fight boss battle, he drops gem that leads us to next level, lather, rinse, repeat. Which is fine if your into that, I'm not.

He takes every opportunity to take shots at PF. I think it's because he thinks it hurts me.

You know what? I AM going to quit. I guess it took writing out my thoughts to understand. Thanks All. I feel better already.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You Maya's well at least try kicking him from your group before quitting. The other players might understanding and if they're not it's not like you're losing anything if you've already decided to quit.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

You positive? Stand up for yourself. Don't let him win. This guy deserves comeuppance, and the fact that somebody else in the group DOES think you're the best GM is a HUUUUGE advantage for you.

Give them an ultimatum: Either he goes (or at least shapes up, but that sounds like wishful thinking), OR you go. Don't just go. He's an idiot and a bully, whereas you're the kind of person who gives himself too little credit. Don't hand him victory, don't reward his behavior - if not for your own sake, then for the sake of the other people he'll be further encouraged to treat this way if you just submit to him.


Leaving is your call, you're the one in the middle of it. Make absolutely sure you let the rest of the group know why. They enjoy your game and should get a say in how this does or doesn't play out.

Dark Archive

I have schizophrenia & bi-polar disorder & all of this is weighing too much on me. But as soon as I said I was going to quit, it was the "Weight off of my chest moment." I actually feel so much better.

The way I see it, I am happy now. So I win. It might be a while before finding a new group but I will be okay. I am moving in the summer so with a new home might come new opportunities. Believe me. With this group I can promise you, they would pick him to stay over me. With only the player who said I was a good GM who would not want me to go.

Scarab Sages

I'm sorry to hear that, you have my sympathy, and I'm glad to hear you're moving.

Dark Archive

It's only 20 min away but it's a new start


Get the rest of the group in on it. Let his character's stupidity ruin his own experience, but DM fiat it to not affect anyone else.

Have no NPCs take him seriously, he'll straighten up or leave on his own.

shameless self-plug

Check this out for the game my group plays. I call it "Everything good about 5th edition, and nothing bad about it."

Scarab Sages

Not exactly a life-changer, then.

It does bother me that this guy will think he's won - I've only read a few paragraphs about him, and I already hate him. He may be out of your hair, but now he'll me even more willing and able to treat other people that way.

I have similar problems (though hopefully not identical) to yours; believe me when I say it's critical that people like us stand up to people like them. It would be nice if something could be done to him.

@master_marshmallow: Interesting idea.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You know what this costs you, play it your way.
Overstressing yourself to teach a lesson to someone who isn't worth it is a bad trade-off.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think that even if you presented him with undeniable evidence of what he is. He will never admit to it. In his mind he is infallible. I think that is the main reason he doesn't like me. In me knowing the rules better than him & in the fact that his best friend said that I was a better GM than him. It showed that he wasn't perfect. I honestly believe that is his major problem with me.

It's okay though. I want to thank you guys for listening. It really helped. Honestly. Just to have someone to talk to means a lot. I don't have any gamers to talk to normally just my parents & they wouldn't know a 4-sider if their lives depended on it. Thanks.


Daw wrote:

You know what this costs you, play it your way.

Overstressing yourself to teach a lesson to someone who isn't worth it is a bad trade-off.

This is good advice.

Although I also agree with I'm Hiding In Your Closet.


Obviously you know yourself better than random internet posters so if leaving is best then you certainly should leave. I would suggest you let the group know why you are leaving if you feel you can without causing yourself too much stress.

Dark Archive

I will let them know. I don't like it when gamers just stop communicating & I would never do anything like that myself. Things will be great. I can feel it. Ironfang Invasion is out, I just bought some pawns, my birthdays next month so we're gonna go out to eat, gonna get some Fajitas at Cafe Del Rio. You can't frown while eating good food. Things will work out. I bet you 10gp everything will work out.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have to wonder the ages of the people involved in this interaction. It might simply be an issue of maturity that will dissolve in a few years. However, if these are all adults, I would avoid like the plague! Hang out, if everyone is friends outside of the game. But, the game's never going to be fun if one person screams and rages whenever they're told "no." Go to the local game store, or check out PBP here or elsewhere. Or, try getting takers for a roll20 or Tabletop Simulator game.

"No gaming is better than bad gaming." Additionally, "You can't fix stupid."


Happy birthday next month.


BeefSupreme wrote:

Hey All, I am sorry about this being long but I got a bit of a problem that I need advise on. I joined a group a little over a year ago. They played 3.5 & 5e. But I got them to play in my Pathfinder game. It was okay but one player who is a devoted 3.5 player is causing problems & it's the dumbest of problems.

In my game someone in the group wanted to use 2 weapon fighting but he moved more than 5ft so I said he couldn't because 2 weapon fighting was a full attack action. The problem player yelled & screamed "That's why I hate PF because of stupid rules like that!" Which then I said it was the same way with 3e & 3.5. He said I was wrong, I said look it up. He did. He then moved on, not saying I was right but I didn't care.

Then in my game they had a fight with rogues. Rogues got initiative so they stabbed at his paladin. I asked what his flat footed AC was. He yelled that it shouldn't be flat footed because he wasn't surprised. Where I said you are flat footed until you act in the round. He started bad mouthing PF because of "Stupid Rules" like that. Where I said it's been that way since 3e. Where he didn't believe me, so we had to look it up & I was right. So he said he was gonna start using that "New"rule, where I said it wasn't new it's been around since 2000. He didn't enjoy that. Maybe I should have taken the high ground but...

Over the weekend he complained about in PF the spell Lesser Restoration took 3 rounds to cast. I told him it was the same in 3.5 & of course he didn't believe me.

And his, I guess hatred, of me is spilling over in his 5e game because he is showing VAST amounts of disfavor towards me while showing an amazing amount of favor towards everyone else.

Plus I had to quit running my game because he sabotaged it. He decided, at 1st level, to get the entire thieves guild in town to go after them by attacking them. He was playing his paladin lawful stupid & said he had to destroy evil. So now the entire thieves guild has a price on the players head. And I...

So let's see here...

You have a player who wants to play 3.X and not Pathfinder, but doesn't realize that all of the things that he complained about existed in 3.X, meaning any complaints he made in regards to Pathfinder equally apply to 3.X, resulting in an inadvertent bashing of the game he'd rather play, and then plays his Paladin (which, in hindsight, was a poor choice to begin with) as Lawful Stupid to purposefully sabotage a campaign due to complaints that would've occurred even if you played using the 3.X system.

Do I have all that right?

Quite frankly, not only is that player a problem player that no table should have, but it's also the most confounding example of ignorance and stupidity I've ever come across.

It didn't matter what you did to make him happy. You could've given him a Holy Avenger and he still would've been a dick to you and your game, and it didn't matter if that game was Pathfinder or 3.X, and probably not 5e, either.

And unfortunately, since you're the odd one out (that is, you're the newest person), leaving the group is perhaps the smartest thing to do, since trying to force them to make a decision between the new guy and the tried-and-true friend (though I'm surprised they didn't cut into any of the arguments between you and the problem player, especially since the argument topics are pretty simple and common knowledge) is easily more than just an uphill battle. (And again, I'm curious how such a display of ignorance still warrants that player to be a "tried-and-true friend," but since I wasn't there, I'd rather get into this subject.)

If the other players ask why, you can just tell them that the problem player isn't making you have fun with the Pathfinder campaign, especially when the problem player decides to purposefully dismantle your gaming ideals by playing like a jerk just because he was wrong a few times (and would've been wrong even if we played the way he remembered playing).


Can the one guy who liked your GMing reach your new place? It might be worth inviting them to your next game.

Dark Archive

Darksol you spelled it out better than I can & it was amazing.

Arbane, you might find the interesting. The place where we game is just down the street from where we are going to move. In fact, they want to start gaming at my new house when I move. That is also why me quitting has to come now, before I get deeper into the mire.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I cannot help but notice, once again, that you are in a position of leverage. See how much the rest of them want in to your house - on one obvious condition.

darkerthought7 wrote:

Additionally, "You can't fix stupid."

But there are many ways you can punish it!


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

I cannot help but notice, once again, that you are in a position of leverage. See how much the rest of them want in to your house - on one obvious condition.

darkerthought7 wrote:

Additionally, "You can't fix stupid."

But there are many ways you can punish it!

Disagree on the leverage portion. While he is new, and the others are interested in playing the game, I highly doubt that they are willing to forsake a friend to do so (or to ask said friend to not participate in game, unless they themselves find him to be a nuisance at the table, which has not been indicated one way or the other).

Unfortunately, punishing stupidity (especially as GM) isn't exactly fun for anyone involved. And that's the point of the game.

That isn't to say that fun can't come from bad decisions, as they're part of the game, even if veiled with uncertainty or risk and can lead to interesting or even comical consequences, but that stupidity done just for the sake of stupidity (even if it's "in-character") is something that isn't acceptable at most every table. Alignment stupidity is a prime example of "Lose/Lose" stupidity.

It's a loss in that no player besides the person playing along with Alignment stupidity finds it fun (which means other players are turned off about the fact), and it's also a loss in that even if you can "overcome" their Alignment stupidity, they will use it as a means to circumvent others' needs for their own selfish "needs."

Of course, anyone pulling this kind of crap is not welcome at any table I run, and I'd rather not participate at a table who has people pulling this kind of crap.

Scarab Sages

Part of my point is that it's not just about the game. This guy obviously has a poison personality that I doubt is restricted to gaming, and it will become stronger if he feels he has 'won' his war on BeefSupreme, whereas a good defeat, while it might not "fix his stupid," will do a lot to discourage his behavior and maybe, down the road, force him to think about who he is. This is about real-life monster-slaying.

As for what else you say there, Darksol, the fact that he is a terrible player should indeed be further leverage. The rest of the group would have to be nearly as bad as he is to honestly be okay with it. They're probably just putting up with it because each of them is afraid to come down on him as an individual. Sure, BeefSupreme is the new guy, but he could be the serpent in the garden, opening the eyes of the benighted - it is usually the new guy who leads a paradigm shift, especially when the others are secretly unhappy with the established order.

Grand Lodge

Pretty much every GM/DM I know has zero tolerance for players who act like that. Disruptive players ruin everyone's fun, and are not worth the effort of trying to accommodate. I would immediately disband the gaming group and let them all know exactly why.

On a personal level, I would also probably avoid even being a player in any group involving that person. I have actually packed up my stuff and left mid session due to players like that before.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Part of my point is that it's not just about the game. This guy obviously has a poison personality that I doubt is restricted to gaming, and it will become stronger if he feels he has 'won' his war on BeefSupreme, whereas a good defeat, while it might not "fix his stupid," will do a lot to discourage his behavior and maybe, down the road, force him to think about who he is. This is about real-life monster-slaying.

Trying to fix Jerk Player's entire personality really isn't BeefSupreme's job, though. Jerk Player's behavior is Jerk Player's responsibility. I mean, if BeefSupreme thinks that's a fight worth having, then by all means, have at it, but it's not an obligation. In my experience with these types of people, confronting them just doesn't change anything. People who behave like this generally will avoid viewing anything as their fault.

But I do think that it's worth reaching out to the other players, individually, and inviting them to a game that does not include Jerk Player (maybe letting them know this explicitly so no one invites him themselves). Don't be afraid to tell them why. Sure, maybe they'll all side with him, but maybe you'll find that there are other players who are sick of his behavior but were afraid to say anything because they thought they were the only one. With what you've described, it can't have gone unnoticed.

I definitely would not participate in a game with a player like this, either as a player or a GM.

Dark Archive

10 people marked this as a favorite.

Good news!!! I left the group & the player who was cool & liked my game, is quitting too. He couldn't handle the BS either. But from another player than the one I had trouble with. And I am with another group, that's a good group & the player that's cool said that once I move, & that if his schedule allows it, he will join our group.

Man I wished someone on this page would have bet me those 10gp that I mentioned eariler. Oh well.

We should be moved by around July to August.

This will be a good birthday.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm glad you can continue RPing with a better group! I hope you have a great time.

Silver Crusade

Yay!

*hugs*

Happy early birthday!

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thanks all


BeefSupreme wrote:

Good news!!! I left the group & the player who was cool & liked my game, is quitting too. He couldn't handle the BS either. But from another player than the one I had trouble with. And I am with another group, that's a good group & the player that's cool said that once I move, & that if his schedule allows it, he will join our group.

Man I wished someone on this page would have bet me those 10gp that I mentioned eariler. Oh well.

We should be moved by around July to August.

This will be a good birthday.

Well, at least he admitted there was a problem besides the obvious one you've brought to us. (Which is strange to say the least, since there was no clear indication of that being the case, but that's not the point here.)

At any rate, it's a good thing our advice worked towards your favor. That's what we're here for.

Also, even if we did make the wager, I'm curious how we'd constitute 10 gold pieces in real-world currency...

...Or would all of that money apply to your newly-created PC... :P


BeefSupreme wrote:
In his mind he is infallible. I think that is the main reason he doesn't like me. In me knowing the rules better than him & in the fact that his best friend said that I was a better GM than him. It showed that he wasn't perfect. I honestly believe that is his major problem with me.

I wouldn't believe you if something similar hadn't happened to me as well.

Really awesome that you solved your problem! Not often I see a positive outcome from these threads.


Beef don't quit unless you are sure about this. From what you tell us the group seems to like and want you. Thy don't have an issue with you or your style of play. It's just one guy probably whining because at heart he's a bully and you stood up to him. Suggestions have been made to talk to him and the group, I'd recommend you do that. Maybe if you can talk to some members out of game alone. From the way it sounds the group has had issues with this guy for some time. The person that needs to quit or get booted is him.
It's obvious he doesn't know the rules probably making them up or seriously misreading them. Hates to be corrected. He b*+~%es about Pathfinder but plays 5E? I'm not getting that really. 5E is an extremely lowered powered system compared to 3.5. I have played 5E don't much care for it rather play Pathfinder. His style of play and GM suggest video game mentality. Probably plays them with cheat codes. In short this is not the kind of player Pathfinder or mot other RPGs need. I'd rather have a lot less good players then a lot of bad players. Bad players always, always cause problems simply because they can.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Stuff

Just so you know, he left the game. If you had read the whole thread you would have known that. Try to keep that in mind for the future :)


Garlic I think that is sad because you have someone who is a good player quitting because of what is essentially a bully. I hate bullies because they never contribute to anything except themselves. I hope Beef finds a group and the Bully eventually learns to grow up or gets kicked from his group.


There are people that you cannot change. You can only stay away from them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kileanna wrote:
There are people that you cannot change. You can only stay away from them.

Aye. And I'm really glad to hear that you've found a good group now, OP! It's always nice to see these situations end on a happy note :D


Derek Dalton wrote:
Garlic I think that is sad because you have someone who is a good player quitting because of what is essentially a bully. I hate bullies because they never contribute to anything except themselves. I hope Beef finds a group and the Bully eventually learns to grow up or gets kicked from his group.

he already found a new group which he has said is way better than the old one so that's a pretty big plus for him, his campaign does sound interesting tho wouldn't mind reading an update once everything gets started up again


Love to hear if the shmuck from the other group got his just rewards. I am glad Beef found a new group. It does piss me off when guys like the one he ran into seem to get their way though.


By now you've already made your choice and feel good about it, that's the important part taken care of. But to add a little something to the problem in general as likely other people are dealing with less extreme versions of a similar problem.

I've been GMing for 42 years now and have had fantastic and craptastic groups, the dynamic you describe is one I've encountered several times in the love of the hobby throughout the various regions of the USA. I'm not of the opinion that my many years makes me better than anyone else, just means I've been doing it long time, nor do I worry about being politically correct. I'm not a jackass with my views, but I don't mollycoddle people's sensitivities either.

Over the years I've encountered this type of person more times than I care to recount, I call'em "Zealots". Zealots aren't like devoted fans, whom you actually can reason with and have a talk about their behavior over. You can sit down with'em over a beer or coffee and say "look man, I know you'd prefer if we did X instead of Y, but this is what I run and I promise you I will always try to be fair and consistent with this body of rules. If I'm not call me out on it and I'll hear what you have to say, but otherwise lets work with what we got and if you got suggestions or complaints, let me hear them off the table where I can be more receptive." A devoted fan will at the minimum, respect that you'll do your best to be fair and consistent.

You can't do that with a Zealot. In their mind, you are literally speaking blasphemy, and further they tend to narrow their view of how something should be done to their way and none other. Their egos are fragile things with a hatred and rage towards anything that challenges their beliefs simmering beneath at all times. They don't reason, they lash out and "punish" transgressors. Zealots are also frequently emotionally disturbed in other areas as well and thus tend to be powderkegs, often to the detriment of our collective hobby.

The most practical thing to do with a Zealot is to shoot them. But since that carries grave consequences you'll have to settle for a symbolic shooting and kick them from the group if possible. In your case, that wasn't possible because the group he belongs to has already come to terms and accepted the Zealot as part of their normal. So instead you shoot the group (figuratively) and move on, a equally wise solution. Had you not chosen to remove yourself already its what I would've advocated.

One thing I can say as a old fart in this hobby, true group chemistry is a rare thing to encounter and if you do, definitely cherish and nourish it. But never be afraid to pack bags and move on if even the most basic chemistry and courtesy isn't present, life is too short to put up with any of that.


Well said Seeker, well said. There is another problem with Zealots, they breed like roaches. Not literally but figuratively. The group Beef was in was accepting of the Zealot's behavior. In time they will be fellow zealots like him. I've met a few and regret saying I know them. They tend to explain themselves by saying things like some eastern philosopher. Rules are rules and they do need to be followed not interpreted like they wish it to be.


BeefSupreme wrote:
Good news!!! I left the group & the player who was cool & liked my game, is quitting too. He couldn't handle the BS either. But from another player than the one I had trouble with.

Yup, yup. Makes sense. I should have guessed that the whole group would be somewhat toxic, since they put up with the a&@@$~! this long.

Also, it's nice to see an advice thread this clear-cut and simple. No huge argument over minutia, no protracted story—the OP posted a problem, people posted support and advice, and the OP got themselves out of a s+@%ty situation. Threads like these, in my opinion, are why the Advice subforum exists.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / I don't know what to do with a player All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.