Any party manage to send Cthulhu back to R'lyeh?


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ShroudedInLight wrote:
Daw wrote:
Most of these aren't played for anything more than notches on a sword belt.
Which is a shame, because those notches are basically meaningless if the encounter isn't played well. Sure you "beat" the Cthulhu but where is the challenge? Its a false victory.

Why are the notches meaningless? I mean sure if the DM just threw Cthulhu at the players as a ball of numbers, then ya that's pretty meaningless. But even if Cthulhu is run properly, it's still plenty beatable by high level adventurers. At high levels, Cthulhu is exactly the sort of thing adventurers take one look at, roll their shoulders, and then get to the punching out Cthulhu.


Notches on your belt implies a devalued experience. If it isn't a devalued experience it is more than just a notch on your belt.


Anzyr wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:
Daw wrote:
Most of these aren't played for anything more than notches on a sword belt.
Which is a shame, because those notches are basically meaningless if the encounter isn't played well. Sure you "beat" the Cthulhu but where is the challenge? Its a false victory.

Why are the notches meaningless? I mean sure if the DM just threw Cthulhu at the players as a ball of numbers, then ya that's pretty meaningless. But even if Cthulhu is run properly, it's still plenty beatable by high level adventurers. At high levels, Cthulhu is exactly the sort of thing adventurers take one look at, roll their shoulders, and then get to the punching out Cthulhu.

I meant the ball of numbers thing, but Daw has a point too. I know Cthulhu can be stomped on by a part of mythic characters, or even just well built high level ones, or even just a single character ala beastmas. However, the idea that he is just a ball of numbers that will sit there, throw quickened spells, and full attack really devalues the whole experience of fighting a great old one. It should be a character chewing, dice breaking, apocalyptic event...not just another Tuesday.

You know?


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See, the problem is, that Cthulu is as published in Golarion and does not in any way represent the Cthulu published in the books.

This is what I was saying: those stats and playing him in that way in no way represents the spirit of essence of what Lovecraft wrote.

The monstrous Cthulu was an inhuman creature with no thought that related to anything like "sane" humanity. It's desires were (despite Lovecraft's claims in-book) relatively apparent: it wanted to live, breed, eat, and so on like any living creature; it just also was insane (and entirely ignorant of its own physical limits, unless it wanted to get popped and go back to sleepy-time, in which case... sure, yeah, I guess, mission complete) and drove those nearby mad.

This is what I meant: the Cthulu we consistently have in stats is not the Cthulu we have in the books. Look at his Starspawn. Now look at the Elder Things. There is no way a reasonable war could be waged between these two races. It makes no sense that the Elder Things would ever be able to last even a short time.

"But the Elder Things can get class levels."
"So can the Starspawn."
"They wouldn't need the levels."
"Of course they would: they're at war against high level opponents."

There is no such thing as level adjustment, so there is no reason for the two races to ever get to a stalemate.

The continuous escalation to make Cthulu and its related elements the biggest in the omniverse really doesn't capture Lovecraft's writing. Yes, he always claimed they were, but this is never really borne out all that much in-text, because the weirdness never actually, truly, for realsies runs into the kind of reality altering power that PCs wield.

It's like claiming Superman can beat Goku because Superman is the most powerful in his universe.

"Uh, that's nice, get back to us when he is casually destroying planets."

Superman's power and abilities are beyond our ken - but he's not on the same level as the rediculous creatures from Dragonball, and trying to put him there is an excercise in missing the point - his setting is smaller, so he is really big there; put him in a different setting and he will be smaller.

I think, as a result, the mythos elements have been badly inflated.

This does not make them terrifying, and it doesn't make them easy to use as GMs.

Make them smaller, but still terrifying and maddening as a matter of course. This's will make them creepier because it allows you to invoke the themes Lovecraft did on the scale that Lovecraft did. Set to Lovecraft's scale, get closer to his results.

Or you could pull a Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem, I suppose, but that, too, is a "smaller" setting than PF's.

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It isn's so bad. With Mythic, all you have to do is scout him out from the safety of Earth's upper atmosphere and have the Paladin throw a supertanker at him.


Rosc wrote:
It isn's so bad. With Mythic, all you have to do is scout him out from the safety of Earth's upper atmosphere and have the Paladin throw a supertanker at him.

This.

This makes me so daggum happy.

Thank you.

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Tacticslion wrote:
Rosc wrote:
It isn's so bad. With Mythic, all you have to do is scout him out from the safety of Earth's upper atmosphere and have the Paladin throw a supertanker at him.

This.

This makes me so daggum happy.

Thank you.

Each one of Lightwarden's articles is a treasure.

- Toot toot


TOOT-TOOT~!


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Superman said to Darkseid,"I've lived my life being careful with my powers, but now I can go all out."

It's like when Goku takes off the weights. Either one could and may have transported R'lyeh to pluto or Yuggoth.


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Showed him the rent rates for Jersey City. Sent him packing more rapidly than an Elder Sign.

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Tacticslion, I agree with that post, but I think mentioning Superman vs Goku nerdfight is bit annoying me since it prompts my nitpicking side to point out that Superman has bs no limits power in comics. I mean, seriously, the guy is pretty reasonable super powered in movie or animated cartoon adaptions, but in comics superman using his full power is basically Deus Ex Machina were writers make any bs up. Seriously, I'm not kidding, nothing in DBZ can match the bs of bad comic book writing(seriously, I don't get how depending on writer Superman can be so op in comics yet he still is sometimes challenged by multiversal threats :P). Though yeah, if someone argued with "this character is most powerful in his universe in this series", that is by itself bad argument since different settings have different power scales.

Better example of pointless vs discussion to me would be any discussion about over powered character vs Saitama from One Punch Man because Saitama's running gag is that he is bored because there is no foe that can challenge him so we are completely unaware if he even has any upper limit to his power. So discussing whether over powered character could beat him is pointless since its impossible to say objectively whether Saitama could or couldn't beat them since by OP Man's main gag, he would one shot them, but viewer can't prove what Saitama's limits are because we haven't ever seen them.


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CorvusMask wrote:

Tacticslion, I agree with that post, but I think mentioning Superman vs Goku nerdfight is bit annoying me since it prompts my nitpicking side to point out that Superman has bs no limits power in comics. I mean, seriously, the guy is pretty reasonable super powered in movie or animated cartoon adaptions, but in comics superman using his full power is basically Deus Ex Machina were writers make any bs up. Seriously, I'm not kidding, nothing in DBZ can match the bs of bad comic book writing(seriously, I don't get how depending on writer Superman can be so op in comics yet he still is sometimes challenged by multiversal threats :P). Though yeah, if someone argued with "this character is most powerful in his universe in this series", that is by itself bad argument since different settings have different power scales.

Better example of pointless vs discussion to me would be any discussion about over powered character vs Saitama from One Punch Man because Saitama's running gag is that he is bored because there is no foe that can challenge him so we are completely unaware if he even has any upper limit to his power. So discussing whether over powered character could beat him is pointless since its impossible to say objectively whether Saitama could or couldn't beat them since by OP Man's main gag, he would one shot them, but viewer can't prove what Saitama's limits are because we haven't ever seen them.

That's fair.

Supes has a metric ton of weaknesses, though, even in the comics (which has had a great deal of inconsistencies with his portrayals, over the years, and thus highly fluctuating limits).

So, over-all, based on the average of his various representations, I stand by my comparison.

But depending on the era (or world or whatever) you're discussing, I submit that supes may, in fact, win.

Also, I chose Supes specifically for his weakness to magic. He's got a really high DR/magic. PF would... not go well with him.

(I have never seen the kind of shenanigans DBZ fighters get up to in Supes comics, but, eh, whatevs, I was more a Marvel fan back in the day. Feel free to substitute Thor, if you like, or the Hulk - who, it should be noted, canonically defeated Superman in a comic punch-fight by holding his eye beams until they hurt Supes that one time Marvel/DC tried a crossover. And Hulk ain't all that, compared to some of PF stuff, even if he can punch and carry more than anyone in PF ever could.)

((I'm aware that Screw Attack did a thing with these two; I've never seen it, and don't hold much interest.))

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Tacticslion wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

Tacticslion, I agree with that post, but I think mentioning Superman vs Goku nerdfight is bit annoying me since it prompts my nitpicking side to point out that Superman has bs no limits power in comics. I mean, seriously, the guy is pretty reasonable super powered in movie or animated cartoon adaptions, but in comics superman using his full power is basically Deus Ex Machina were writers make any bs up. Seriously, I'm not kidding, nothing in DBZ can match the bs of bad comic book writing(seriously, I don't get how depending on writer Superman can be so op in comics yet he still is sometimes challenged by multiversal threats :P). Though yeah, if someone argued with "this character is most powerful in his universe in this series", that is by itself bad argument since different settings have different power scales.

Better example of pointless vs discussion to me would be any discussion about over powered character vs Saitama from One Punch Man because Saitama's running gag is that he is bored because there is no foe that can challenge him so we are completely unaware if he even has any upper limit to his power. So discussing whether over powered character could beat him is pointless since its impossible to say objectively whether Saitama could or couldn't beat them since by OP Man's main gag, he would one shot them, but viewer can't prove what Saitama's limits are because we haven't ever seen them.

That's fair.

Supes has a metric ton of weaknesses, though, even in the comics (which has had a great deal of inconsistencies with his portrayals, over the years, and thus highly fluctuating limits).

So, over-all, based on the average of his various representations, I stand by my comparison.

But depending on the era (or world or whatever) you're discussing, I submit that supes may, in fact, win.

Also, I chose Supes specifically for his weakness to magic. He's got a really high DR/magic. PF would... not go well with him.

(I have never seen the...

Yeah, that example with Hulk is pretty much what I mean: Superman's power limit is what writers want it to be, so Death Battle's style of "Let's check all incarnation of character to see most impressive feats and them determine based on them who wins" style of thing is non sense to me since comic book writing is really inconsistent.(I'm annoyed with basis of death battle in general since I find "who would win" debates/arguments kind of dumb since different settings work in so different ways you could argue they have complete different sets of laws of physics :P So fair comparison doesn't exist really)

But yeah, sorry about this minor derail away from Cthulhu hype power inflation :'D


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At least Superman doesn't have a power-up indistinguishable from constipation that can go on thru several episodes.


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anddddd tacticslion kills hours of my life with his awesome links that go on and on.

Thanks buddy.


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the only "who would win" rendition I think of as even remotely true is the one Superman-Batman comic where the two heroes are eavesdropping a pair of fanboys having their own debate.


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Honestly I think there's two situations where Cthulhu would be fought:

- An epic lovecraftian campaign, in which case the GM can lovingly set up the Cthulhu encounter the way he wants to in order to provide the experience he wants to provide. In this sort of campaign, a full battle against Cthulhu probably isn't going to happen.

- An "lol let's kill Cthulhu" beer and pretzels session. Probably a one shot, or a generally less serious campaign. In which case his stats are fine.

The problem then, would be inexperienced GMs seeing the stats and thinking that they should use Cthulhu as the final boss of a Lovecraftian themed campaign. In that sense, it's definitely a trap option. But as someone familiar with Lovecraftian works, my thoughts on seeing Cthulhu went immediately to the second type of encounter, because that's the only type of session where a full slug out with Cthulhu remotely makes sense.

In other words, my reaction to Paizo Cthulhu was "lol, sweet!"


Scavion wrote:

anddddd tacticslion kills hours of my life with his awesome links that go on and on.

Thanks buddy.

Any time, buddy! Any time!

We all do what we can... XD


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Someone's group killed all the AD&D gods... including the good aligned ones?! That's just nuts. What sort of GM would even have that as a possibility in the campaign?! Generally speaking, when you have a god personally show up in an RPG campaign it's as a Plot Device.

It's just the high-level version of the same mentality that leads players to kill the entire population of the Village of Hommlet. "It's got stats, so it's here for us to kill it, right?"

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