Is the Oracle OP?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Silver Crusade

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I'm reasonably new to Pathfinder but i'm pretty sure I have the gist of it. But recently a friend of mind has started a campaign with the advance players guide and I decided to play as a oracle for the healer. And now the oracle is essentially banned in my other friends games because it's "OP", the DM has let me still play the oracle.

But I want to ask is the oracle OP? To me it seems to have enough downfalls to make it around balanced with the limited amount of spells being a spontaneous caster (especially compared to a cleric) gets his 2nd level spells at level 4 (instead of level 3) to even out the mystery that he get's.

So from the wise sage/veterans of pathfinder I ask. Is the oracle OP?


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Oracle is very good, although much of that goodness is in versatility rather than raw power -- you can build all sorts of things out of it, but they will all have some weakness. Not just the downside part of the Curse or limited number of spells known (and slow and very limited changeout process that only occurs with character advancement, so choose carefully), but also not having a good Fortitude Save, which you need to mitigate if you are going to be in melee. Also, being a Charisma-based caster hurts a bit by sucking build points away from Intelligence (which you need for skills and sometimes for feat prerequisites) and Wisdom (which you need for your Will Save, although at least you get a good Base Will Save). In contrast, Cleric is quite powerful (some would say even more powerful than Oracle, but tends to be boring by comparison (theoretically the combination of Domain Powers and Channeling gives you more total class features at the low and middle levels, but in practice it's hard to get all of these to be good on the same character -- even if you sacrifice other capabilities to make Channeling good while keeping good spellcasting, it's hard to get 2 good Domains unless you limit yourself to a handful of deities, and even harder to get 2 that have both good 1st level Domain Powers and good later (usually 8th level) Domain Powers (in contrast, with Oracles, you can choose any Revelation that you qualify for within your chosen Mystery, and get more with the Extra Revelation feat, although beware of getting them too fast and starving yourself on feats, and then having nothing but lousy Revelations to choose from later).


Oracle is hardly OP. They're less versatile in their spellcasting than the Cleric. Sure, they have more spells per day, but their general utility is very limited. Those sort of balance themselves out.
Oracles also get a Curse, which can be pretty debilitating. To make up for that, they get Revelations. While some are pretty good, most of them are generally inferior to spells, or are limited to once a day uses.

I'm not even sure they're more versatile, like UnArcaneElection says. Sure, they get more things to do with their Revelations, but most of them are pretty situational, I'd rather be able to choose my spell selection for the occasion than be stuck with the same generic ones and have some limited use Revelations.

What's you build like? I wouldn't say I could build a better Cleric, but I'd say that in most cases, any build you'd want for an Oracle, can be replicated with a Cleric or Shaman. The only real reason to absolutely prefer Oracle is if you want to be a support type ninth-level caster and also want to be party face.


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Tell me, does the friend who bans the Oracle also ban the Cleric? The Witch? The Wizard? All 3 of those classes can arguably give the Oracle a run for its money.

Silver Crusade

I'm playing a Lore oracle (seemed like a fun combination of healing and also knowing what to do) and the main things that are "OP" in their opinion is A. Sidestep secret, managing to get a very high AC very early, B. focused trance a +20 on knowledge checks and the last point they made is the final revelation which is essentially free "wish" without score increasing or expensive spells one per day. Are these reasonable points?


A You should have an AC comparable to a DEX build (since you're using CHA instead of DEX).
B Well, that depends on how crucial knowledge checks are in your campaign (excluding enemy identification, because you won't have time to do that unless you get to ambush them).
C That limited version of Wish looks like Miracle, except you can cast 8th-level Wizard/Sorcerer spells, but can't replicate any spell with an expensive material component (Miracle lets use up to 100 GP, and a normal Wish lets you use up to 10,000 GP). I don't think it's OP.


oracle is only kinda meh in power level there are many other classes that are more "powerful" than the oracle especially since oracle has reduced spell casting and some of the curses they have are just out right crippleing


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I've seen three Oracles and none of them have been particularly impressive.

Most cases of banned classes seem to be caused by one player bringing a heavily optimised character to a game where all the other characters are relatively weak, and the inexperienced GM assumes the class is to blame.

It's certainly possible to make a very powerful Oracle, but it's possible to make a powerful Fighter too.


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How do they feel about Witches, Wizards, Arcanists, Shamans, Clerics and Druids? Cause they're generally considered more powerful in their own way.

Oracles do make the best necromancers. lol.

That limited wish nonesense isn't very impressive given at that level one could spam miracle.


Not to mention that capstones are generally a pretty bad place to look at for game balance, considering a lot of capstones are really powerful and most campaigns either won't get that far or won't be at that level long enough for it to make a huge difference.


Berine wrote:
I'm playing a Lore oracle (seemed like a fun combination of healing and also knowing what to do) and the main things that are "OP" in their opinion is A. Sidestep secret, managing to get a very high AC very early, B. focused trance a +20 on knowledge checks and the last point they made is the final revelation which is essentially free "wish" without score increasing or expensive spells one per day. Are these reasonable points?

Sidestep Secret is fine. You have decent AC, but it'll even out in the end. You could pick up heavy armour proficiency and be quite tanky, but that's a feat and a revelation, both of which come in a limited number. There are a few revelations that are more powerful, I'd say, but this certainly is a good one.

Focused Trance is good in out of combat situations. You don't want to do it in combat, and it's as limited number of times per day, even worse than an Oracle's domain ability. Absolutely fine.
The capstone for most Oracle Revelations is pretty bonkers. This one in particular, but you don't need to focus on that. Level 20 is a long way off and most campaigns don't even go that far.

I wouldn't say your GM is overreacting, but certainly doesn't seem to know what an Oracle is capable of. As said above, there are classes that are more powerful than the Oracle.


If you're just doing a straight comparison of cleric to oracle, then yes the oracle is better...sort of. Clerics...are pretty boring to me and are hard to do much with aside from casting spells (IMO).

But Oracles offer a lot more ability to customize so that you can cast spells and do other interesting things too.

I wouldn't say that the Oracle is overpowered, except in the context that all 9th level spell casters are overpowered. But that isn't an Oracle problem, that's a problem of "spell levels 7-9 shouldn't exist".


I have an intense dislike for prepared spellcasting, so I'd take an oracle over a cleric any time (and a sorcerer over a wizard, though I might try the arcanist sometime). But that doesn't have anything to do with power levels.


In my experience in multiple games systems I have found that more often than not it is the player who is overpowered not the character. If one player has a good sense of tactics and knows the system well they will be more powerful than a less knowledgeable player. I have been in a game where my rogue was considered to be more powerful than the wizard. My rogue was heavily optimized and I used every trick I have learned in my 30+ years of gaming. The wizard on the other hand was made poorly designed by a first time gamer that had never system before, and no idea of tactics.

The biggest difference between a cleric and an oracle is the cleric is less focused and easier to play. Oracles tend to be specialists with the same options every day. They have a great deal of versatility as to what spell they cast, but don’t have a large selection. In their area of specialization they are better than a cleric, but they cannot do much outside their focus. If I am an oracle of battle and did not take restoration and a party member gets hit with a negative level than I am useless.

The cleric as a prepared divine caster has access to his entire spell list for any spell level he can cast. While this can be a big advantage it does require the player be familiar with his entire spell list. It also means he may not have the spells he needs memorized. But give an idea of what he is facing he has a lot more options and will probably be able to deal with the situation. By changing his spells the cleric can totally change the nature of his character from day to day. When you are expecting a big fight the cleric can prepare only his combat spells and go all out. The next day when everyone is beat up, with multiple conditions like negative levels, blind, diseased cursed, he prepares his healing spells and takes care of it. If the cleric does not know what to expect than he memorizes a little of everything and may not have what he needs if something comes up.

Grand Lodge

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Berine wrote:
So from the wise sage/veterans of pathfinder I ask. Is the oracle OP?

It's a 9th level caster class, so yes.


As far as 9 level casters go, no, it's not, between the curse and the restricted spell selection (compared to, say, clerics or druids), and of course the delayed acquisition of spell levels, the oracle is not quite as powerful as others can be, given proper preparation.


Honestly, the 9 level casters that I have the least concern about their ability to obliterate the plot through mystic might are the Oracle, Witch, and Shaman.

It is a very good chassis though, and in a lot of ways easier to play than a cleric.


Don't focus on using Charisma for AC, initiative, saves, attacks, and damage all at once, and you should be fine. To avoid scaring GMs, don't load up on the Extra Revelation feat.


QuidEst wrote:
To avoid scaring GMs, don't load up on the Extra Revelation feat.

Most mysteries don't have more than a couple of stand out revelations so taking lots of extra's is likely to reduce your effectiveness.

I find Oracles are extremely powerful in actual play but then so are all of the 9 level casters. There are many ways of adding extra spells to your spells known making them much more flexible than when they initially came out.

As far as curses go, don't take the crippling ones. Plenty of them offer significant benefits with downsides which are easily mitigated.


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Which curse were you thinking of taking? The only one that the GMs I know ever have problems with is Legalistic.

Shadow Lodge

David knott 242 wrote:

Which curse were you thinking of taking? The only one that the GMs I know ever have problems with is Legalistic.

  • 'Blackened' is a non-curse if you don't intend to melee anyway.
  • 'Haunted' is often a non-factor.
  • 'Tongues' is fairly manageable with a steady group who learns your language (PFS play might be an issue).
  • 'Wasting' seems managable if you aren't the party 'face'


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The biggest difference between a cleric and an oracle is the cleric is less focused and easier to play.

I simultaneously agree and disagree with you....!

Whenever I see someone playing a cleric I think one of 2 things:

1) He's totally new to the game and sees the cleric as being easy to play

2) He's an expert and realises the hidden complexity of the class and the absolute need for system mastery


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Taja the Barbarian wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Which curse were you thinking of taking? The only one that the GMs I know ever have problems with is Legalistic.

  • 'Blackened' is a non-curse if you don't intend to melee anyway.
  • 'Haunted' is often a non-factor.
  • 'Tongues' is fairly manageable with a steady group who learns your language (PFS play might be an issue).
  • 'Wasting' seems managable if you aren't the party 'face'

But note that three of these curses are negated only by the character limiting his activity in some way. The Tongues curse requires a minor expenditure of resources (a language slot) on the part of the rest of the party to negate, so it is closer to being a freebie -- it is only an ongoing issue in PFS games or in home games where the party frequently has short term allies joining the party in combat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

My Winter Oracle with the Wasting curse was just fine, by the end all it meant was that he had an effective 25 Cha for everything but Intimidate. His Diplomacy bonus was still very high.


QuidEst wrote:
Don't focus on using Charisma for AC, initiative, saves, attacks, and damage all at once, and you should be fine. To avoid scaring GMs, don't load up on the Extra Revelation feat.

How do you get Charisma to attacks and damage? Asking for a friend. :D


Desna's Combat Style (for star knives) is the easiest way. Annoying on oracles due to proficency issues, but plenty doable. Extra goofiness if you use a Large star knife and that item that offsets size penalty (iron grip gauntlets or something) so you can 2h it

Silver Crusade

My Fiance is very good at making characters. I can tell you that almost any class can be "OP" with a smart enough player. It's not always about raw power, sometimes it's about just knowing the class really well and being able to see how things mesh. Sometimes it might take a few levels to get going, but always interesting in the end.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Desna's Combat Style (for star knives) is the easiest way. Annoying on oracles due to proficency issues, but plenty doable. Extra goofiness if you use a Large star knife and that item that offsets size penalty (iron grip gauntlets or something) so you can 2h it

Kitsune just puts four FCBs in for proficiency, with reduced penalties along the way.


QuidEst wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Desna's Combat Style (for star knives) is the easiest way. Annoying on oracles due to proficency issues, but plenty doable. Extra goofiness if you use a Large star knife and that item that offsets size penalty (iron grip gauntlets or something) so you can 2h it
Kitsune just puts four FCBs in for proficiency, with reduced penalties along the way.

Varisian Tattoo (the trait) also gives free proficiency in it if you're using traits.


First of all, I'm among those arguing that the oracle is much, much easier for a novice to play than cleric. A cleric is only able to grab the right spells for the situation if the player knows the entire blankety-blank list. And can make decisions quickly. An oracle player is in that situation at level-up, but usually, they can do their research and pondering at home. Mid-game, they've got a short list to pick from that they hopefully do know well. It's not fair for a GM, IMHO, to ban the easier option.

Second of all, you can point out to the knee-jerk GM that it's the Lore mystery he should be banning if he bans anything, not the Oracle class. The mysteries are IMHO very, very uneven in effectiveness. But there's no real reason to ban even the one mystery. I admit, I squawked "Unfair!" when my highly-optimizing player first showed me his 5th-level Lore Oracle. I had never looked at the mystery before! So I have to sympathize with your second GM. But... I swallowed hard and let my player do it, and his PC is NOT breaking my game. For instance, Sidestep itself doesn't let you use Cha to land ranged attacks, or add to damage. So if you want to inflict melee damage, you're still splitting your attribute points between Str & Cha. (Unless you use some other game-twisting ability, which I can't comment on.)

Third of all, if you're already playing a Lore Oracle, don't you want to branch out anyway? At least try a different mystery? Variety can be the spice of life, you know. And you'll probably have fun being well-optimized with something else. When the second GM realizes that you're still giving him conniption fits, he may have an easier time sorting out player abilities from class abilities.

Silver Crusade

Thanks for your thoughts on if the oracle's OP.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Any class your GM believes is overpowered will be so in that GMs eyes forever.

With that said, Arcanist seemed overpowered at first yet I slowly adjusted to accepting them. The APG summoner has a case for being overpowered, and my personal opinion is that the unchained summoner is the pendulum swinging too far the other way.

Oracles are more specialized than clerics, yet I would hesitate to say overpowered. A life oracle makes a better heal bot than a cleric, yet healing is the only exceptional thing a life oracle can do while the cleric can retool all of their spells for a different role.


Oracle is far from OP. Curse aside (since those, in general are boons), the Oracle suffers from the same symptoms of a sorcerer with a worse base spell list. Lore is one of the better mysteries, but it's hardly gamebreaking. (Side note: the level 20 ability will never come up. If you ever do reach that level, congrats. You have one extra 9th level spell slot.) You get medium armor and sidestep secret. If you want to pump your save DCs, you're moving down to light armor, anyway, so your AC evens out. You don't get the cleric's good Fort save, nor do you get the ability to grab spells like Remove Blindness without burning character wealth. Is it better than a fighter? Probably, depending on the build. Is it going to outdo a cleric in the support department? No. Can it outcast a sorcerer? No. At the end of the day, the Oracle is a flavorful way of playing a divine caster. But it's usually the inferior option if your goal is to just run support. It simply doesn't have enough tricks up its sleeve.

If you do want to scare a GM with an Oracle, though, try one of he following:
- Heavens mystery + Awesome Display + Gnome
- Battle/Time + (initiative revelation) + (AoE debuff)
- Dual-Cursed archetype + Blackened curse + Consumed Curse + Oracle's Burden spell

Shadow Lodge

David knott 242 wrote:
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Which curse were you thinking of taking? The only one that the GMs I know ever have problems with is Legalistic.

  • 'Blackened' is a non-curse if you don't intend to melee anyway.
  • 'Haunted' is often a non-factor.
  • 'Tongues' is fairly manageable with a steady group who learns your language (PFS play might be an issue).
  • 'Wasting' seems managable if you aren't the party 'face'
But note that three of these curses are negated only by the character limiting his activity in some way. The Tongues curse requires a minor expenditure of resources (a language slot) on the part of the rest of the party to negate, so it is closer to being a freebie -- it is only an ongoing issue in PFS games or in home games where the party frequently has short term allies joining the party in combat.

Well, it's not really a 'limitation' if it's penalizing something you aren't going to do anyway. My Oracle 11 has a 9 strength and logically should have taken the 'blackened' curse, but I locked onto 'Tongues' and got this image of a character who gets flustered in combat and forgets how to speak all languages other than Celestial (technically, I didn't even get the level 1 bonus language from it, as she's an Aasimar and already knew Celestial). I don't think she has swung a weapon since level 3, and her contribution with her spear was never really needed.

Heck, her Charisma is 32 right now (semi-mythic, so lots of stat buffs) so her Diplomacy should be in the +27 range, which makes the 'wasting' penalty fairly meaningless at this point (though it might have been annoying at low level).

Personally, I avoid 'Haunted' because I figured I'll be juggling scrolls, metamagic rods, wands, and even the occasional staff, so that curse could limit your options significantly (I am the only caster in my group, so I can't rely on anyone else for magical support beyond the spell-less paladin's mercies), but this is also one of those curses that everyone forgets about in my limited experience.

Basically, not all curses are created equal...

Now, you can put some effort into using Charisma for just about everything, but I'm not convinced that is a particularly good idea: By the time is all comes online, your spellpower is getting to the point that you shouldn't need to swing a weapon much.

  • My Oracle 11 does have 'Noble Scion (War)' to uses Charisma instead of Dexterity for Initiative: I didn't know what to take at first level, and this turned out to be a very good choice (My +16 init. is not the best in the party, but it means I do have a chance at going before the Ninja or Gunslinger kill everything).
  • Charisma to all saves is either a capstone or a two-level paladin dip: A great option, but I'm devoted to Desna, which means I'm not paladin material (as a Heaven's oracle, it's in my capstone anyway) and this is more of a Paladin issue than an Oracle issue.
  • Charisma to hit and damage with a Starknife is nice, but you are probably not going to be much better than 'Okay' with it (Medium BAB, no bonus feats, mediocre HPs, and it's still a starknife). I was supposed to get a '+1 Holy Cold Iron Starknife' in our AP (Wrath of the Righteous) but we determined I was never going to actually use it even if I got proficiency for free, so we swapped it out for a Spherewalker's Staff instead (our group is notoriously bad for loot drops, with three light armor dex based characters using Kukris, Clawblades, and Pistols, plus my light armor Oracle).
  • Dex to AC is offered by about 3 different mysteries, but I personally probably wouldn't take a mystery just to get this (unless I'm just dipping). Of course, your mileage may vary...
Now, my experiences are shaded by the fact that we are playing 'WotR' which means outsiders with SR are extremely common: In any other campaign, I could probably could have swung taking the Desnan Fighting style, but as it is, my feat 'wish list' is pretty much overstuffed...

As for the original question, I don't find Oracles to be OP in general. They are strong, but a 'genre savvy' cleric could probably be much more powerful for the group (such as, by preparing a 'Remove Paralysis' or two when you think you might be running into ghouls, or a 'Delay Poison' for the trap-springing rogue) but probably not as flashy.


Hehehe. Really, there's one part of the oracle that's OP. Omniscience via the Legalistic curse


Haunted loses to a handy haversack and gives you some great spells in return, there's no real reason to avoid taking it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

My Battle Oracle, after one-shotting an Ogrekin in Giant Slayer last weekend would have told you yes. But since she died several rounds later under a reign of blows from a Hill Giant, instead she will tell you no.


Caius The Disillusioned wrote:
My Battle Oracle, after one-shotting an Ogrekin in Giant Slayer last weekend would have told you yes. But since she died several rounds later under a reign of blows from a Hill Giant, instead she will tell you no.

Disillusioning indeed! My condolences on your loss. Hopefully, temporary?


I'm playing with an oracle of life focused on healing. Does almost nothing other than healing. It was powerful at low levels, was on track for getting weaker, but is now massively overpowered.

What changed?

One mythic rank.

When you have a 22 CHR and use mythic selective channeling (and have a party with a familiar, an eidolon, an animal companion and a few mostly non-combatant NPCs which we do...), you can heal all the wounded people a crazy amount. At 5th level it's 3d6+12. That's more than half the hit points for most of the party. And that's generally every wounded party member (range and the like matters). And he saves spells for out-of-combat healing (we really don't need a wand of CLW).

We've had people go from negative hit points to nearly full health in 2 rounds. Regularly. Not something you see in pathfinder too often.

That said A) that's a special case (mythic) and B) the spells known is a hugely limiting factor (though less in a mythic game).


Now from not only most of what I've heard on these boards, but from reading the Mythic Rules themselves, Mythic IS overpowered. Especially once you get to Tier 3. If I ever get into a Wrath of the Righteous game, I want it to be non-Mythic . . . and then supposedly this AP's okay.


It is definitely considerably harder to balance a encounter if mythic is involved ill say that. Its not so bad when useing mythic vrs mythic but mythic vrs regular is very sad for the non-mythic unless you use a lot. I now only use it for a way to go above level 20 instead of the as they level up they gain tiers thing.


^Even Mythic vs Mythic turns into more rocket tag than high level Pathfinder has already.


I've run Oracle in both mundane and Mythic flavors, and to me they are a solid, but fair option. Bear in mind they are always going to be measured against Clerics in effectiveness, so that OP's DM should have a mitigating view on Clerics if he is going to be fair/impartial.

That being said (I admit, I am making assumptions) though, it would be sheer cheese/munchkin past experience that may be the yardstick being measured against.

Exploiting Curses to be a positive boon. Legalistic can only be exploited only if the DM lets it be so (I've seen this escalate, and the House, as in the DM, has deeper reserves to pull from to win that tit-for-tat wording war a la Wish/Contract boiler-plate). Another way to mitigate is taking Vampiric as a lesser curse while a Dhampir (the negative energy healing already came from the Race, so the Curse is moot)... Synergy is the key, and the Oracle NEEDS to focus and synergize to optimize the build. Unless the DM has a problem with optimizing in the first place, and that's its own bag of worms to address outside of this thread.

Even Tongues isn't a bad lesser curse. Do I need to talk in combat? Does my spoken spells NEED to be a in a specific language? I'm pretty sure seeing Rogue spurting blood all over the place is my cue to tamp down with some kind of heal, or if I succeed at Spellcraft, I may get a chance to understand what debuff is/will hit my comrades and ready my response. I used to maintain a list of Morgan Freeman quotes so I could roleplay being only able to speak Celestial when under duress.

The really debilitating ones like Clouded Vision I can play for RP effect. My comrades are encouraged to always have at least one battle buddy near me so I don't get left behind or isolated. Talk about never having to whine about being covered by an ally. And if you're near the healer, you may be prioritized most for their divine aid.

Before Kineticist and Vigilante, Oracle to me had the most FLAVOR as a class. Not all Revelations are good, the better to trade them out for archetype bonuses and such. Dual-Cursed is the perfect way to winnow out what some may feel are excessive poor Revelations within a given Mystery. I'd take THRICE-Cursed (no Thrune!) just to get Dual Mystery in a Paizo archetype. I salivate at that cheese!

Try taking one of the non-combat Mysteries like Heavens and traipse through your DM's Magical Realm. Screw Combat bonuses, I FLOAT!(and pray the DM does not remember there are penalties attached to that. Is there water? Yesssssss! Reach Weapon/Ranged Oracle FTW! Gotta spend full-round actions to Metamagic? Somebody hold/rope me and tow me into position, Mush!(in the event of the Tongues Oracle, "Andy!") Never get lost outside at night? (Once convincing a DM with a high enough Profession-Astronomer check that "Technically" the stars are always out, especially that big one in the sky that provides us this daylight effect-okay I admit that was pure exploitation going Anaxagoras on the poor guy, but that NAT20 had to go somewhere dammit). A scaling armor that frees up money to spend on other items? Inducing a hostile caster or somebody that may need it into a touch-AC no-save rage? A free nightly Commune? Judging by Capstones is a limited viewpoint unless you're seeding at 20. Best prioritize utilities that can go from acquirement to retirement.

There was such a character to being weak-sighted, but always able to perceive the most distant stars as Dual-Cursed (Clouded Vision, Lesser Tongues-Celestial) Heavens Mystery widdle Gnome wandering through Golarion's wilds. The tiny "Pathfinder" guiding the team whenever, wherever, outdoors as the Dhampirs preferred to travel overland at night. I am a Wayfinder lol. Gnome Positioning from Stars GPS. Too bad I got em all killed on a snowy mountain... floating down the avalanche that TPKed that campaign.

The one thing I regret is that the Oracle is faced with the dilemma of splitting Combat/Metamagic Feats because they are designed to be a Caster able to wade into the Line and take some heat off buddy Martials. Only ways I've found viable was DEX->DMG builds for shield Oracle, or gambling on STR and being a primary Caster on a Reach-Weapon Oracle build, which still needed to run Combat Reflexes for action economy purposes. We're not a SAD class.

Considering the fact that Oracles progress slightly slower than Clerics in terms of spellcasting tier unlocks, could it just be the 9-Tiers of spells that bothers your DM? I don't mean to insinuate -we all have comfort levels of what mechanics we can deal with (simpler Grapple, crafting, etc.), and I latched onto Oracle after transferring over from 3.5 specifically because it was something different from Cleric/Favored Soul.


Thank you, everyone, for putting your two sense into this discussion, it has now been mostly sorted, the main problem i had as the dm was that Bernie was the only character who was playing with an APG class ( since i stopped useing apg because it made my first game to complex), so i let him keep his class. the first few level of the game he was by far the most powerful character but now i have done some tweaking and now its fine. the reason i didn't like the focus trance is because my campaign is very knowledge based and being able to pass all the knowledge checks make the game boring.


Avaricious wrote:

Synergy is the key, and the Oracle NEEDS to focus and synergize to optimize the build. Unless the DM has a problem with optimizing in the first place, and that's its own bag of worms to address outside of this thread.

some of the players were relatively new, so optimizing would mean that those players would feel bad because they aren't as powerful as the other people, and i want all the characters to feel like they are on the same level and that the are useful in the party

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