Pathfinder Encounter: Massacre on the Hill

HUZZAH!
Nice encounter to show off the new Ghoul rules. :P

Those new ghouls rule! Their abilities make them much better align with their depiction as creatures of unending craving. Also, Forbidden Cravings is nasty. You think you're managing it, eating meat to keep the effects down, but if you do the curse gets you in the end.

I also like that, if the curse kills you some other way, you don't rise as a ghoul. If you can resist its urges then you still die, but at least you stay dead.

Forbidden Cravings (curse) Saving Throw Will, using the high spell DC for the ghoul’s level (GM Core 121); Stage 1 carrier with no ill effects (1 day); Stage 2 2d6 void damage and the target is sickened 1 until it consumes raw meat (1 day); Stage 3 as stage 2; Stage 4 as stage 2 unless the target has consumed raw meat in the past 24 hours, then it takes 4d6 void damage and is sickened 2 until it consumes raw meat; Stage 5 if the creature has eaten raw meat in the past 24 hours, it dies and rises as a ghoul, if not, it returns to stage 4

How, exactly, does a victim consume raw meat while Sickened?

Beware any place named Red Rose.

(That's is a dapper looking ghoul!)

Quote:

Forbidden Cravings (curse) Saving Throw Will, using the high spell DC for the ghoul’s level (GM Core 121); Stage 1 carrier with no ill effects (1 day); Stage 2 2d6 void damage and the target is sickened 1 until it consumes raw meat (1 day); Stage 3 as stage 2; Stage 4 as stage 2 unless the target has consumed raw meat in the past 24 hours, then it takes 4d6 void damage and is sickened 2 until it consumes raw meat; Stage 5 if the creature has eaten raw meat in the past 24 hours, it dies and rises as a ghoul, if not, it returns to stage 4

How, exactly, does a victim consume raw meat while Sickened?

It is assumed that this specific sickened condition will let you eat the only thing that conteract it. It's the rule of specifics. "You can't eat when sickened" is a general rule. "You get over this particular instance of the sickened condition by eating raw meat" is the specific rule. Specific trump general. :O

Finoan wrote:

Quote:

Forbidden Cravings (curse) Saving Throw Will, using the high spell DC for the ghoul’s level (GM Core 121); Stage 1 carrier with no ill effects (1 day); Stage 2 2d6 void damage and the target is sickened 1 until it consumes raw meat (1 day); Stage 3 as stage 2; Stage 4 as stage 2 unless the target has consumed raw meat in the past 24 hours, then it takes 4d6 void damage and is sickened 2 until it consumes raw meat; Stage 5 if the creature has eaten raw meat in the past 24 hours, it dies and rises as a ghoul, if not, it returns to stage 4

How, exactly, does a victim consume raw meat while Sickened?

It is assumed that this specific sickened condition will let you eat the only thing that conteract it. It's the rule of specifics. "You can't eat when sickened" is a general rule. "You get over this particular instance of the sickened condition by eating raw meat" is the specific rule. Specific trump general. :O

As detailed on page 88 of the GM Core, when an affliction like a disease gives you the sickened condition in a way that prevents you from reducing it below 1, you can still slowly and carefully eat or drink as long as you aren't in an encounter.

As detailed on page 88 of the GM Core, when an affliction like a disease gives you the sickened condition in a way that prevents you from reducing it below 1, you can still slowly and carefully eat or drink as long as you aren't in an encounter.

Ah. Very nice.

Elfteiroh wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Quote:

Forbidden Cravings (curse) Saving Throw Will, using the high spell DC for the ghoul’s level (GM Core 121); Stage 1 carrier with no ill effects (1 day); Stage 2 2d6 void damage and the target is sickened 1 until it consumes raw meat (1 day); Stage 3 as stage 2; Stage 4 as stage 2 unless the target has consumed raw meat in the past 24 hours, then it takes 4d6 void damage and is sickened 2 until it consumes raw meat; Stage 5 if the creature has eaten raw meat in the past 24 hours, it dies and rises as a ghoul, if not, it returns to stage 4

How, exactly, does a victim consume raw meat while Sickened?

It is assumed that this specific sickened condition will let you eat the only thing that conteract it. It's the rule of specifics. "You can't eat when sickened" is a general rule. "You get over this particular instance of the sickened condition by eating raw meat" is the specific rule. Specific trump general. :O

As detailed on page 88 of the GM Core, when an affliction like a disease gives you the sickened condition in a way that prevents you from reducing it below 1, you can still slowly and carefully eat or drink as long as you aren't in an encounter.

Oooh! I still need to finish rereading all the remastered core books! xD

You folks keep telling us to speak up when we like something you do so this is me speaking up:

This is my new favorite kind of blogpost.

The last one (Sea Hag) had me smiling for days.

Almost missed this until someone pointed it out. Absolutely love the new 'ghoul fever'. So flavourful and horrifying to be consumed by. I know I won't miss rolling paralysis checks ad infinitum when a bunch of lower level ghouls swarm the party to see if one of them happens to crit fail (and won't really be upset that an higher-level ghoul doesn't randomly turn lethal when a party member is hard-locked for a round).

Only thing is, I half feel like stage 4 should punish you worse for not feeding on raw flesh, so that you're continually motivated to keep up the feeding while in that danger zone just before stage 5. On the other hand, there's a lot of thematic impact factor going in favour of your 'treatment' becoming thing that makes it worse, forcing you to double down until it kills you.

Hungry Hungry Ghouls…
Always liked the idea that ghouls gain something from those they eat; memories, maybe even their form for higher level variants? And that its a curse they apply to others rather than just the old werewolf-bite contagion. "Hey lil' mama lemme whisper in ya ear… doesn't some rare pork sound good?"

Hungry Hungry Ghouls…

Always liked the idea that ghouls gain something from those they eat; memories, maybe even their form for higher level variants? And that its a curse they apply to others rather than just the old werewolf-bite contagion. "Hey lil' mama lemme whisper in ya ear… doesn't some rare pork sound good?"

It'll probably be a long time before I get a chance to run some ghouls again considering that we just did March of the Dead and my next project is probably going to be Season of Ghosts when the stars schedules align, but I can already picture how I'll introduce this feature to my players. "Do you know which meat is the most tender?" Or you could always do the Gollum line, "Raw and wriggling!"

... but this line of inquiry may soon be more than is suitable for the general forum-going audience.

Sidenote, I do hope ghouls didn't lose their pathfinder unique super long tongue x'D It always makes me sad when art loses features unique to pathfinder (I still remember what happened to human face on spider)

Great. Love moar content. This is particularly useful since relying on 6 x 1 makes it easy to tune the scene lower in difficulty (or higher, I suppose).

Only one criticism: the gnomes are depicted as green circles. This is a major faux pas. The only acceptable scribble-shorthand symbol for 'gnome' is circle with a pointy hat.

Almost missed this until someone pointed it out. Absolutely love the new 'ghoul fever'. So flavourful and horrifying to be consumed by. I know I won't miss rolling paralysis checks ad infinitum when a bunch of lower level ghouls swarm the party to see if one of them happens to crit fail (and won't really be upset that an higher-level ghoul doesn't randomly turn lethal when a party member is hard-locked for a round).

Yeah, I'll kind of miss the paralysis, since it's been so iconic for D&D ghouls for so long, but mechanically it didn't work too well in PF2e.

The incapacitation made it annoying to roll constantly, but ineffective for lower level ghouls, but then suddenly devastatingly effective when the ghoul boss shows up. It's far more of a shift in difficulty than you'd expect for the level difference.

I'm also interested in seeing what knock-on effects this change to ghouls will bring.

Like, will the ghoul archetype be gaining feats to reflect this new kind of ghoul? I think they got some feats to reflect some of these powers in Blood Lords but I haven't checked again yet.
Also, with ghouls being more about consuming knowledge--brains--is that going to alter zombie lore? That'd be neat to see, but our current popular understanding of what a zombie is came from misidentifying ghouls in a horror movie, so I could see them staying the same as a nod to that, too.

"Will, using the high spell DC for the ghoul’s level (GM Core 121)"
Is not using concrete numbers for a creature a new convention? I hope it's just a drawback of this blog post.

I'm also interested in seeing what knock-on effects this change to ghouls will bring.

Like, will the ghoul archetype be gaining feats to reflect this new kind of ghoul? I think they got some feats to reflect some of these powers in Blood Lords but I haven't checked again yet.
Also, with ghouls being more about consuming knowledge--brains--is that going to alter zombie lore? That'd be neat to see, but our current popular understanding of what a zombie is came from misidentifying ghouls in a horror movie, so I could see them staying the same as a nod to that, too.

pathfidner zombies were never about eating brains. You actually even need to swap in an optional "ability" for them to be contagious. Otherwise, the default are zombies raised by necromancer, and are mindless and just mechanically eat anything living it can put their hang on... Which, surprisingly, is way closer to actual voodoo beliefs sources than the "movie" ones. xD

"Will, using the high spell DC for the ghoul’s level (GM Core 121)"

Is not using concrete numbers for a creature a new convention? I hope it's just a drawback of this blog post.

So, in the book, that part is part of the general ghoul rules to create new ones, the specific DCs are mentioned in the specific stat blocks, while referencing that "full" text to save word count. Here, they copy pasted the generic one cause "see Book page X for full text" wouldn't make a good preview. xD

Here, they copy pasted the generic one cause "see Book page X for full text" wouldn't make a good preview. xD

Yeah. Though '17' would make a good one more easily :)

Oof. That's a tough encounter! The text says that the bodies are "fresh kills" - which presumably means the bodies marked on the map died within the last hour? Lots of 1-action heals for an adjacent ghoul. Combine that with swift leap to get out of trouble... a 3rd level party could have real problems putting these things down.

Also, I love the art of the dapper ghoul with the cane - undead, not unsophisticated!

Oof. That's a tough encounter! The text says that the bodies are "fresh kills" - which presumably means the bodies marked on the map died within the last hour? Lots of 1-action heals for an adjacent ghoul.

All the tables/chairs could favor leaping movement too, depending on the GM. Three of them being right next to the gnomes creates an AoE challenge. The party probably needs to draw them out if they can. Get them in one place away from the Gnomes if possible.

Also, I love the art of the dapper ghoul with the cane - undead, not unsophisticated!

Yes, clearly the Red Rose special of the day was fava beans served with a nice Chianti.

Ruling question, cuz I'm dumb! When it says 2d6 void damage and sickened 1 until you eat raw meat, does that mean you can't heal the void damage either until you eat the raw meat? Cuz if so, siiiiick.

Ruling question, cuz I'm dumb! When it says 2d6 void damage and sickened 1 until you eat raw meat, does that mean you can't heal the void damage either until you eat the raw meat? Cuz if so, siiiiick.

I feel like it would be spelled out explicitly in this section, but it isn't: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2396

So for now I'm assuming the damage doesn't persist.

One argument is that "any other effect of the stage that doesn’t list a duration" includes damage, but I doubt it, I think the intent for that is to handle any unusual condition, as the paragraph first covers how damage is handled, then conditions. The title for the paragraph section clearly distinguishes between damage and conditions.

Ruling question, cuz I'm dumb! When it says 2d6 void damage and sickened 1 until you eat raw meat, does that mean you can't heal the void damage either until you eat the raw meat? Cuz if so, siiiiick.

Nothing says you cannot heal the void damage, so you can.

With the removal of paralysis from their touch, should the requirement for Ghoul Whispers still have "A grabbed, paralyzed, restrained, or unconscious creature is within the ghoul’s reach" part of it's effect? It looks like a legacy line, since Ghouls no longer cause paralysis... unless there is something in the Monster Core entry that is missing from this encounter. I'm guessing that the elven ancestry feat Elven Verve from the Lost Omens Character Guide is no longer relevant.

Aside for that small niggling, I am really liking both the early reveal and the encounter! I look forward to seeing more of these.

With the removal of paralysis from their touch, should the requirement for Ghoul Whispers still have "A grabbed, paralyzed, restrained, or unconscious creature is within the ghoul’s reach" part of it's effect? It looks like a legacy line, since Ghouls no longer cause paralysis... unless there is something in the Monster Core entry that is missing from this encounter. I'm guessing that the elven ancestry feat Elven Verve from the Lost Omens Character Guide is no longer relevant.

Aside for that small niggling, I am really liking both the early reveal and the encounter! I look forward to seeing more of these.

I mean, if the in-'verse requirement is "the person can't move away from you", then "paralyzed" would still make sense there, because it's the result (person can't book it) that's more important than whatever caused that condition.

Just like vampires. They can't cause someone to be paralyzed, but when the creature is paralyzed from another reason (like a spell or another monster), the vampire can Drink Blood from them.

So they are more Occult now? I like this very much, the curse is amazing.

Just to come back to the new ghouls since my players have run afoul of them and one got cursed: How do you run the actual curse? Figuring out what caused it? Should they know that raw meat will fix the sickened condition?

Just to come back to the new ghouls since my players have run afoul of them and one got cursed: How do you run the actual curse? Figuring out what caused it? Should they know that raw meat will fix the sickened condition?

They probably know something is wrong as someone got damaged and sick. Then it goes the normal pf2 way: they Recall Knowledge and then probably Identify Magic as this is a curse. Successful IM definitely simply gives full information.

I would think that the cravings for raw meat are sometime the GM would tell them about, too. Tell them nothing else they eat really tastes as good as it should. Tell them the smells wafting from the butcher shop smell amazing, but that any meat's flavor is bland and disappointing after being cooked.

I would think that the cravings for raw meat are sometime the GM would tell them about, too. Tell them nothing else they eat really tastes as good as it should. Tell them the smells wafting from the butcher shop smell amazing, but that any meat's flavor is bland and disappointing after being cooked.

Ah, and this, absolutely. Forgot about this.

thejeff wrote:

Just to come back to the new ghouls since my players have run afoul of them and one got cursed: How do you run the actual curse? Figuring out what caused it? Should they know that raw meat will fix the sickened condition?

They probably know something is wrong as someone got damaged and sick. Then it goes the normal pf2 way: they Recall Knowledge and then probably Identify Magic as this is a curse. Successful IM definitely simply gives full information.

The fun part of "someone got damaged and sick" is that Stage 1 has no symptoms and they did a lot of stuff in the 24 hours since the fight with the ghouls. :) Several sessions, including messing with weird stuff in old shrines. So the ghouls aren't an obvious source.

I hadn't considered curses as detectable and thus identifiable magic. Cursed items certainly, but not curses like this.

I would think that the cravings for raw meat are sometime the GM would tell them about, too. Tell them nothing else they eat really tastes as good as it should. Tell them the smells wafting from the butcher shop smell amazing, but that any meat's flavor is bland and disappointing after being cooked.

I'll probably lean into that.

He only failed the save that got to Stage 2 at the end of last session. They know he's sickened and hungry, but regular rations just made him more nauseous. Have to decide if I want to hint that the dead enemies lying around look tasty or not.

I mean, "raw meat" is basically everywhere in an adventurer's life.

So the ghouls aren't an obvious source.

I hadn't considered curses as detectable and thus identifiable magic. Cursed items certainly, but not curses like this.

Yeah, but they are. PF2 is not a game to run on zero information :) The moment some effect is somehow detected players can ask GM a question 'What is this?' and most of the time get a Recall Knowledge attempt (provided it's possible at all, but RK doesn't even require Trained). How does Identifying Magic work? Unless you have some strong preference (and probably even in this case anyway), better if players decide how this looks. PCs feel something in trance/meditation? See something looking 'the right way'? Probe it with magic runes drawn on air? Look at it through a crystal? Mostly anything works.

But does that mean they should have picked up some new magical effect the first time they cast Detect Magic afterwards? Even in Stage One, with no symptoms?

But does that mean they should have picked up some new magical effect the first time they cast Detect Magic afterwards? Even in Stage One, with no symptoms?

Very probably. DM detects everything which doesn't conceal itself (illusions and traps do). But as there's no actual 'detecting afflictions' rules apart from general ones, I guess you could consider the curse concealed until it comes into effect, if you want.