Ancestries and Heritages Preview: A World of Possibility

SP3CT3R wrote:

keftiu wrote:

We all know that a bunch of draconic stuff is in Player Core 2, right?

…right?

And IIRC there's also a brand-new VH supposedly representing something the playerbase has wanted for a long time. The odds are pretty solid we're finally getting dragons.

That would be interesting, but I'm not going to hold out for it. Especially since BattleZoo has already hit the draconic options ball out of the park. :)

Not really. The Battlezoo stuff is way too sensationalist. Plus, the existence of a homebrew thing doesn't mean we can't have an official version of the thing.

Not really. The Battlezoo stuff is way too sensationalist. Plus, the existence of a homebrew thing doesn't mean we can't have an official version of the thing.

...sensationalist?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I honestly have no idea what that even means in this context. What do you mean when you say that thing?

What does "way too sensationalist" mean in the context of a game where you can Loony Toons yourself across a battlefield by shooting your old-timey muskets, turn into a bear with wings, or be a dancin, fiddlin' skelington?

keftiu wrote:

JiCi wrote:

I just wish they made Kobolds less of a joke and more of a "pint-sized draconic powerhouse".

"Hey! Look! A tiny red lizard!"
*belches a cone of flames*
*joker turns to ashes
"Oh, I'm sorry, who's tiny now?"

Kobolds have like two silly feats. They’re not any more comical than the average Ancestry, and we’ve seen them be totally-sincere roles like diplomats and craftsmen in published content… on top of also being the Paizo union’s logo.

I see a lot of “I wish Kobolds weren’t jokes!” and very little of Kobolds being jokes, y’know?

Then explain to me these:

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Others Probably... Assume that you are cowardly and won’t stick around in the face of danger.

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Cringe: With pitiful posturing, you cause your foe to pull back a deadly attack.

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Scamper: You instinctively know how to flee danger.

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Ally's Shelter: In stressful circumstances, you find strength in your allies' example.

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Grovel: With obsequious words and begging gestures, you convince your foe you're less of a threat.

which all goes against THIS tidbit:

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If you want a character with oversized confidence, deadly cunning, and the ancient power of dragons flowing through their veins, you should play a kobold.

What kind of "overly confident" character would fake weakness again???

- CRINGE should have been related to a Dragon's frightful presence, which would ASLO cause an enemy to recoil and "pull back" an attack.
- SCAMPER should be related to skirmishes, which would be in line with the kobolds' trap-making and "leading someone into it".
- ALLY'S SHELTER should be about a kobold's own draconic charisma to inspire in teamwork.
- GROVEL should have about mimicking how a dragon can be a smooth talker or an unpredicatble creature in order to feint.

I'm not talking about making kobolds OP, just NOT like Halo's grunts who run away after seeing Master Chief. They have draconic origins, but they're...

I feel you wish for a Draconic ancestry that revels in the might and aura of their forebears and appear as true scions of the mighty draconic legends of the world.

I feel this trope has been used in other settings and might make Golarion feel too close to those rather than its own thing.

I might be wrong though.

pixierose wrote:

Goblins literally have feats about bring pyromaniacs, being trash scavengers, and singing "annoying" songs. All things that i feel like show case their "flaws."

Those aren't flaws IMO...

One of them is literally described as annoying in the feat description, a word that is typically considered a negative one.

pixierose wrote:

1) some people do like the characterization of Kobolds as "whimpy" under-dogs. So having feats that reflect that characterization is fine especially since they arent the only ones.

When were kobolds ever wimpy?

It is argubably as Iconic feature as the draconic heritage. Scrawny critters who serve more powerful enemies(typically dragons). Cunning/crafty and community based are the other big two aspects you tend to see and that fits right in with the scrawny/wimpy themes. They use their skills and rely on their numbers/community to make up for what they may lack as indviduals. Now none of these have to define Kobolds, after all no ancestry is a monolith. You can have kobolds that are brave or physically mighty, or have kobolds that feel independent or kobolds who don'/ have a strong connection to dragons.(after all other media often portray them as dogfolk or ratfolk, or even more gnomish like creatures)

I also know people who perserve the whimpy aspect of Kobolds *more* then the dragon aspects, and personally see the dragon aspects as being a bit too defining for kobolds in 2e. So no matter what you choose you can't please everyone. So at least you can provide options for a wide variety.

pixierose wrote:

2) the feats mentioned can simply be parts of tactics, a kobold can lean into whimper without it being a genuine aspect of their character. Playing up the sterotypes so that others may underestimate them.

That's ONE interpretation though, because at its core, you fake weakness, because you can, not because you immediately trick the opponent afterward.

I never said you it was the only interpetation, but that is avalid interpetation one that expands the themes and options of Kobolds.

Chocolate Milkshake wrote:

Not really. The Battlezoo stuff is way too sensationalist. Plus, the existence of a homebrew thing doesn't mean we can't have an official version of the thing.

...sensationalist?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I honestly have no idea what that even means in this context. What do you mean when you say that thing?

Sorry, sensationalist wasn't the right word. It's more, I guess, on-the-nose? Surface-level? (Open to suggestions) Nearly all the feats are just things dragons can do. Whereas, if you look at the official ancestries, lots of them have feats grounded in things like their culture, their history, or the environment they grew up in.

But wouldn't one want their dragon PC do what a dragon would do? Also, as this is 3PP this way it's an easier ancestry to drop into your setting without having to worry if it is a cultural fit.

Yeah. At least when it comes to dragons I'd argue that's more of a feature than a bug. Dragons, at least in D&D-esque games, are largely defined by what natural gifts they have; natural flight, claws and fangs, armored scales, natural spellcasting, innate abilities tied to their particular natures, etc. If somebody wants to play as a dragon then they would pretty understandably want at least some of those abilities. Heck, as it stands the draconic abilities had to spill over from the ancestry into a pair of bespoke dragon archetypes.

Do dragons even have a culture to speak? Don't you need a society for that? Dragons don't have one of those. Unless you are talking about Mengkari and we don't talk about Mengkari.

For regular PF2E Automatons are also just what they can do for feats and such so it's not like it's something that wouldn't happen

Each to their own, then. The Battlezoo dragons aren't what I personally want out of a draconic character.

There's, like, an entire nation of people with dragon blood or something. I have to imagine there would be some neat culture bits for those who have more of it than others, if they keep that setup or decide to make new ones! They include culture bits for ancestries with defined cultures in their setting, broadly speaking — there isn't much of a concentration of automatons or fleshwarps.

Also, there were a good few popular 3PP renditions of Kineticist, for years before the book where it's so big it's the only class was announced, so y'know. It's okay to publish stuff people want sometimes.

If I remember write Mengkere is... not a good place to live, despite being ruled by a gold dragon. The lore hinting at how its not good (aside from just being a human eugenics experiment) makes me think the gold either isn't really a good dragon or is going insane.

As for feats from BattleZoo not having enough 'culture' I don't think I can agree. A lot of them have cultural flair in them. Especially the ones where you have to choose just how much of yourself, if any, you are willing to sacrifice for power.

Mengkare is the dragon; Hermea is the island nation, and he's no longer in charge of it.

Thanks for clearing that up. Glad he's not in charge anymore!

Mengkare is the dragon; Hermea is the island nation, and he's no longer in charge of it.

Mengkare is also not a good place to live though.

For more information on "what exactly happened here" see Age of Ashes.

keftiu wrote:

Mengkare is the dragon; Hermea is the island nation, and he's no longer in charge of it.

Mengkare is also not a good place to live though.

For more information on "what exactly happened here" see Age of Ashes.

I forget which, but a recent-ish book described Hermea as being under new management post-AoA.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Mengkare is the dragon; Hermea is the island nation, and he's no longer in charge of it.

Mengkare is also not a good place to live though.

For more information on "what exactly happened here" see Age of Ashes.

I forget which, but a recent-ish book described Hermea as being under new management post-AoA.

The Lost Omens Travel Guide book mentions rumors about this.

The Lost Omens Travel Guide book mentions rumors about this.

So... reasonably likely, but not guaranteed.

Here custom mixed ancestry moment: Generator Rex fan could make half Android to use Nanite part
(Note: Nanite is generic term.)

Kinda reminds me of a character I had back when Inventor was in playtest. I'm expecting/hoping Human with Mixed Ancestry Amurrun or Kitsune will be a new alternative for my catgirl/foxgirl needs than the old Versatile Human > Adopted Ancestry hack I used then. Heck, maybe even get really crazy and do Human with MA Kobold for some Dragon Girl shenanigans, especially if I go Dragon Disciple for eventual proper wings...

Edit: The lore would be... interesting... to justify, but Human + Leshy = Makeshift Dryad Aesthetics.