Organized Play Initiative: Digitization

If they want to make reporting easy, set it up so I can copy paste an entire field of data from google docs into their system ala the paint special ability. Copy paste done.

To be fair, that’s pretty selfish. That assumes google docs is the preferred foundation from which to draw the data. Copy/paste might be YOUR preferred methodology, but depending on the digital device, it may not be the best option for everyone. There are a lot of ways they could make reporting easier and given this community’s history, I doubt there would be a consensus what form it would take.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

If they want to make reporting easy, set it up so I can copy paste an entire field of data from google docs into their system ala the paste special* ability. Copy paste done.

To be fair, that’s pretty selfish. That assumes google docs is the preferred foundation from which to draw the data. Copy/paste might be YOUR preferred methodology, but depending on the digital device, it may not be the best option for everyone. There are a lot of ways they could make reporting easier and given this community’s history, I doubt there would be a consensus what form it would take.

That isn't remotely fair at all. It doesn't have to be from google Docs. I'm just trying to describe what it is I'm looking for when it probably has a technical term that I don't know. I know when I copy from one spreadsheet to another I can keep the fields and copy the chart instead of everything plopping into one blank.

If it works from google docs it should work from any kind of spreadsheet. Or however my good twin Astos was doing it in his youtube video.

I'm having a hard time imagining something easier for the user that's doable from a technological perspective. Snapping a picture of the sign in sheet and having that be read by a computer would be nice, but I don't think that's doable. (after spending covid squinting at peoples hand written character sheets to throw them on roll 20 I'm not sure making a computer read that wouldn't qualify as AI abuse...)

Besides a spreadsheet, form, or hand written note how else would you have the data so you could easily transfer it to paizos website?

How could you make something more equitable than "has a web browser" ? You need one or you're not reporting anyway. That's all you need to access google sheets or something close enough to it to work.

The way you do it wouldn't get any harder just because the way other people do it gets easier.

If you made some other way of doing it as easy as what I"m asking for I'd definitely use that instead. Just not sure what other options there are.

*edit, meant that

I have plans to prototype a spreadsheet->reporting tool website at some point, and now that my local-online convention is over I have some time to start prioritizing the list of these types of projects. It does need to be fairly robust against a wide variety of ordering of fields and probably a couple of hueristics for faction name matching (abbreviations, one word, full name, typos, missing/extra apostrophes, missing/extra plurals, etc) I do think providing a choice of 2-3 GM->event-reporter tools would stream line things.

And in regards to my personal goals for my local-online event, mentioned upthread. We managed to get our 40 sessions reported by 9am the morning after the convention.(I think the timestamp was 1:40-am of the last session being reported, but I had already gone off to bed. I know it was done when I checked this morning.) I know its a small number of sessions compared to a PaizoCon or a GenCon sized event, but I'm still feeling very proud of my HQ team. We were tracking about 90% reported of a session by the end of the next session, normally gated on GM->us reports.

fields and probably a couple of hueristics for faction name matching (abbreviations, one word, full name, typos, missing/extra apostrophes, missing/extra plurals, etc) I do think providing a choice of 2-3 GM->event-reporter tools would stream line things.

On the collection side you could use a dropdown menu to keep the data consistent.

An easy way would be a web app, and using QR codes. All you would need to do is scan it and everything populates. That way all you need to do for reporting is add in the module, exp earned, rep earned and earn income and populates it into the system.

Which gm can see and players accounts.

Would allow reporter access to change up to 48 hours, after that admin access would need to make changes.

So, obviously not everyone may have a smartphone, so this comment isn't directed at them, but:

You don't need wifi to report from your phone, you just need a signal. I highly doubt that the number of games taking place in a signal dead zone is significant.

Logistically, reporting from your phone takes a few key strokes longer. Maybe a minute? Or two? I'm being literal, here.

That just really strikes me as a "first world problem" defense.

Sac Anime is *effectively* a dead zone. (15,000 excited anime fans with smart phones all in the same place is a little more than the local cellphone infrastructure can handle...)

An easy way would be a web app, and using QR codes. All you would need to do is scan it and everything populates. That way all you need to do for reporting is add in the module, exp earned, rep earned and earn income and populates it into the system.

Which gm can see and players accounts.

Would allow reporter access to change up to 48 hours, after that admin access would need to make changes.

But do you think such an app is in the realm of possibility for the paizo tech team on this website?

How is that supposed to work exactly. My group is sitting at the goblin hole. Grogthack decipitates the big bad on a crit. What happens from there?

At best, try to imagine the increased number of entry errors from typing on a phone vs. typing on a keyboard.

While Paizo may just be looking for increased reporting, on the players end the player not only needs the DMs have to report, but that they have to report the player AND character numbers exactly correct every time or things get wonky.

Reporting cannot be, and should not be expected to be, infallible.

It isn't now, it wasn't yesterday, and it won't be tomorrow.

Any reporting system also needs follow up and error reporting.

tomc wrote:

An easy way would be a web app, and using QR codes. All you would need to do is scan it and everything populates. That way all you need to do for reporting is add in the module, exp earned, rep earned and earn income and populates it into the system.

Which gm can see and players accounts.

Would allow reporter access to change up to 48 hours, after that admin access would need to make changes.

But do you think such an app is in the realm of possibility for the paizo tech team on this website?

How is that supposed to work exactly. My group is sitting at the goblin hole. Grogthack decipitates the big bad on a crit. What happens from there?

Honestly, this would probably be implementable, all it would take would be for the Paizo Tech team to expose an API.

The problem is:

1. The Paizo tech team does not have the manpower / will / expertise / code base to create an effective API given the age and complexity of the system.

2. Spambots will probably instantly bring the reporting system to its knees.

It isn't now, it wasn't yesterday, and it won't be tomorrow.

Any reporting system also needs follow up and error reporting.

Currently the errors aren't that big a deal because if i transpose a number paizo still knows someone x number of people played Goblins Gobled the Grouper. Who isn't that big of a deal to paizo.

If the character number is wrong (which seems to be a big issue in reporting, usually from player error), or I don't report its no big deal because Billy has the sheet saying his character Ishmael has the gold from the scenario and the +2 bonus to his Profession Fishin' skill.

How many times have we had to tell the new its alright, you got the chronicle sheet it's all good?

Telling the paizo team about errors has been "push button to cross crosswalk" button that does nothing.

Dumping the rest of the correction process onto the DMs and event reporters to wade through backlogs to dot i's and cross ts is going to severely limit the bandwidth for the correction. The process needs some things to take that burden off of the Dms and reporters:

an easier reporting process (to get more reporting)

A reporting process more accurate than amateur, volunteer, sleep deprived DMs doing numerical data entry by hand (since accuracy matters a lot more now). The LAST thing that new process needs is people entering data from a phone or tablet.

Something the player can do on their side without bothering the DM/ if the DM can't be found or was mis reported.

I don't think its fair to players or Dms for paizo to yoink the safety net of chronicle sheets away from players to get them to hound the DM for more reporting as the only change to get more reporting.

No one is taking away the safety Net.

GMs are still required to issue chronicles.

No one needs to bother DMs or VOs or any of that. Just a simple email to pfsreportingerrors@paizo.com is sufficient.

Could we come up with an app solution that works as long as at least one person at the table has a smartphone, and everyone else either has a smartphone or a printout of a QR code for their character? Can it work for purely online (like roll20 etc.) games? Can it work for conventions where there is no immediate signal, but a buffered report could be uploaded as soon as your phone has signal again?

Certainly. This is 2010. Or thereabouts.

Could we report the results from that app to Paizo?

No. Not until Paizo has some kind of API for accessing their reporting database.

No one needs to bother DMs or VOs or any of that. Just a simple email to pfsreportingerrors@paizo.com is sufficient.

In my experience, VOs can fix the issue immediately while Paizo can take up to a month to fix an error, since they have such a long queue. My chronicles from Paizocon still aren't corrected, and they just need the correct faction applied to them.

No. Not until Paizo has some kind of API for accessing their reporting database.

How hard would the copy/paste thing I'm asking for be? Either someone at the table gets to google sheets, or you just save a spreadsheet and manually copy/paste it the next time you get a signal or get home.

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

No. Not until Paizo has some kind of API for accessing their reporting database.

How hard would the copy/paste thing I'm asking for be? Either someone at the table gets to google sheets, or you just save a spreadsheet and manually copy/paste it the next time you get a signal or get home.

It is much harder than you think. Paizo does not have their website designed to do that. It can be done. Just not with the current IT structure.

It is an easy ask but to impliment will take lots of money. Money on something that does not generate revenue.

If a GM would like to report, they can ask the event owner. If the event owner does wish to allow than the GM is stuck giving info to event reporter.

I don't think players should be allowed to report their adventure. What happens if the table is not reported by GM/event owner? There will be player reports hanging out there not connected to a table.

Too many errors. Too much will go wrong.

We need to focus our efforts on getting tables reported by GM / event owners in a timely manner.

Agree table side reporting is a great goal but we are there yet. Internet conductivity is the top issue. It is not universal.

Re... Reporting.

I pass the paper form around to have everyone sign in, do the reporting things on that paper at the end of the session, then take it home with me. I then report the game when I get on the desktop computer with steady internet and a proper browser that is not Microsoft involved.

Usually, this is within a couple of days of the game.

At game reporting? Do we actually want to try and mess with this type of SNAFU? (Situation Normal all ----ed Up)

Conventions are impossible, such as Gen Con with paid WiFi or nothing a lot of the time, or intermittent signals. Cell service is spotting in places (Gen Con has some data problems here in Indy) and not everyone has an Ipad or tablet to work with, or has the smart fone skillz to fat thumb their way through the process.

Local stores usually have time constraints where one needs to pack up and go after the evening game so the workers can go home for the night, and reporting at the table is another complication that can wait until one gets home.

I do not see why this is a rush to get done by the hour or minute.

Who said it is a rush?

We need to focus our efforts on getting tables reported by GM / event owners in a timely manner.

The definition of insanity OOO squirrel.

Is doing the same thing ooo squirrel

and expecting different resul.. OO squirrel

This has been a focus for a decade. Its been an effort for a decade.

Have focus, effort, trying really really hard, or wanting it gotten results that are good enough?

So why would that change now?

How is it supposed to result in more accurate reporting, which is going to be a lot more important?

I do not see why this is a rush to get done by the hour or minute.

Presumably because scenario boons are moving online, so if you're at a convention and you can't purchase the boon for the scenario you just played, then you can't use it in anything else at that convention.

Hillis Mallory III wrote:

I do not see why this is a rush to get done by the hour or minute.

Presumably because scenario boons are moving online, so if you're at a convention and you can't purchase the boon for the scenario you just played, then you can't use it in anything else at that convention.

Well, if part of the reason to not put out the boon is to delay it, aren't some people going to be out of getting the boon right away no matter what?

I didn’t know that was a reason they gave for not putting boons on the chronicles. I thought any current delays were just a result of switching to the new system, but that essentially at some point boons will be online alongside the release of the scenario. But, I mean, you’re not always going to be playing brand new scenarios at a convention anyway. Or just think about it in terms of AcPs. If that’s where our raise deads and similar things are going to come from going forward, you may want the AcPs from the games that weekend.

So why would that change now?

How is it supposed to result in more accurate reporting, which is going to be a lot more important?

I have no idea how representative I am but I can say that I personally am now doing a much better job of timely reporting of games than I used to.

It used to be a deeply unpleasant chore with no real upside for me or players.

It is still a deeply unpleasant chore but it now has upside for me and (more importantly in my case) for players.

Now, that was all before these new guide changes. For me, the new changes will probably have no effect at all. If they have any effect it will be to irritate me at what I see mostly as bad changes (languages) or irrelevant changes which just waste the web teams time

Gary Bush wrote:

We need to focus our efforts on getting tables reported by GM / event owners in a timely manner.

The definition of insanity OOO squirrel.

Is doing the same thing ooo squirrel

and expecting different resul.. OO squirrel

This has been a focus for a decade. Its been an effort for a decade.

Have focus, effort, trying really really hard, or wanting it gotten results that are good enough?

So why would that change now?

How is it supposed to result in more accurate reporting, which is going to be a lot more important?

Yes Yes, Albert Einstein's definition of insanity.

The thing is, something has change. As pauljathome points out, there is now something real for GMs/event owners to gain from reporting timely.

I know in my lodge, we report tables with a day or two. Most are reported the same day. This is a despite an interface that has not changed in a decade. Several have commented on how much they hate the interface.

I dislike feeling like I am being yelled at because of other bad actors. I can't change how others act. And frankly, continually complaining about it is not going to get it corrected. That is just a different form of insanity.

I think by what he meant when he said that nothing has changed is that there is still no financial incentive for Paizo to spend money on improving the software used to report.

We're part of the population that hops on the internet daily, reads the blogs, reads the PFS forums, and writes out our thoughts on issues. So, yes, we complain here that people need to report, and we're all thinking, "Hey! I report!"

There are--in my physical region, so I'm sure many more than that--plenty of GMs who don't report in a timely manner or at all, they never get on the Paizo website, they don't care about boons or AcP, they just want to play the game (and they could be brilliant GMs). So all the incentive in the world isn't going to get these GMs to report. When all that mattered was your paper chronicle, nobody cared, but now their players are going to get shorted boons and AcP.

What is the recourse for these players?

How do you make someone who has no reason to report, report?

I dislike feeling like I am being yelled at because of other bad actors. I can't change how others act. And frankly, continually complaining about it is not going to get it corrected. That is just a different form of insanity.

But thats what you're doing: yelling at the DMs for some not reporting and continually complaining that they're not reporting. You call it a push and a focus but it's the same thing.

form filling aps are a thing. I think one computer geek doing a thing is more likely than a mass change in behavior and ability across the board. The push doesn't just require reporting, it requires reporting with every I dotted and T crossed.

I would love to have a (simple, reliable) form-fillable interface that would report the game.
In fact I see no reason to stop there - why doesn't it auto-generate the chronicles as well?

That would be a real incentive to get GMs/reporters to use it.

But I'm not holding my breath waiting for it.

An app with auto-generated chronicles? Sign me up and TAKE MY MONEY!

Hmm

An app with auto-generated chronicles? Sign me up and TAKE MY MONEY!

Hmm

Honestly that seems like the *easy* part. Especially with PFS2 treasure bundles.

That is exactly what I'm hoping to build, it may not be able to report to Paizo. But even if its merely reporting to an event reporter, generating chronicles, and having a simpler table GM reporting interface it should be a win. For the cases where the Table GM is a reporter, its harder to know if it will be enough of an improvement, to in effect have to double enter. But if it works and is popular, perhaps Paizo could consider an API it could use.

That is exactly what I'm hoping to build, it may not be able to report to Paizo. But even if its merely reporting to an event reporter, generating chronicles, and having a simpler table GM reporting interface it should be a win. For the cases where the Table GM is a reporter, its harder to know if it will be enough of an improvement, to in effect have to double enter. But if it works and is popular, perhaps Paizo could consider an API it could use.

I have a talented local GM who has developed a website that is in beta now that will generate PDFs for 2e. If you wish, I can give him your name. Maybe together you can work some magic.

We plan to use his website for generating chronicles during Nuke-Con this weekend.

How do you make someone who has no reason to report, report?

That's the great philosophical question of every generation—getting people to care about others.

You can't get everyone to care. Even after you've explained all of the benefits to them, tried explaining why Paizo needs reporting, pointed out that it benefits their players, or that it's simply important to you, there will always be someone who lets you down.

Those are the people who, hopefully, will still let you take over responsibility.

For those who remain, they probably won't be a part of the community for much longer anyways.

How do you make someone who has no reason to report, report?

Science has not figured out how to make a horse take a drink even though it has been lead to water.

I am not going to worry too much about those GMs. If players don't play with those GMs, than they will go away. And people who are organizing events need to watch for non-reporting and not allow those GMs to run a table until the prior tables have been report.

Other than this, I don't see what you can do about a GM who refuses to report.

Eric Nielsen wrote:

That is exactly what I'm hoping to build, it may not be able to report to Paizo. But even if its merely reporting to an event reporter, generating chronicles, and having a simpler table GM reporting interface it should be a win. For the cases where the Table GM is a reporter, its harder to know if it will be enough of an improvement, to in effect have to double enter. But if it works and is popular, perhaps Paizo could consider an API it could use.

I have a talented local GM who has developed a website that is in beta now that will generate PDFs for 2e. If you wish, I can give him your name. Maybe together you can work some magic.

We plan to use his website for generating chronicles during Nuke-Con this weekend.

Please, have him contact me. Its useful either if I can skip that prototype and work on one of the other ideas I had for streamlining online convention management, and/or bring his efforts to the Online Integration Task Force's attention for wider use/recommendation.

Let me know if you want me to DM you an email address or Discord username for direct communication.

Gary Bush wrote:

Eric Nielsen wrote:

That is exactly what I'm hoping to build, it may not be able to report to Paizo. But even if its merely reporting to an event reporter, generating chronicles, and having a simpler table GM reporting interface it should be a win. For the cases where the Table GM is a reporter, its harder to know if it will be enough of an improvement, to in effect have to double enter. But if it works and is popular, perhaps Paizo could consider an API it could use.

I have a talented local GM who has developed a website that is in beta now that will generate PDFs for 2e. If you wish, I can give him your name. Maybe together you can work some magic.

We plan to use his website for generating chronicles during Nuke-Con this weekend.

Please, have him contact me. Its useful either if I can skip that prototype and work on one of the other ideas I had for streamlining online convention management, and/or bring his efforts to the Online Integration Task Force's attention for wider use/recommendation.

Let me know if you want me to DM you an email address or Discord username for direct communication.

I can find you on Discord and connect the two of you.

So I just saw the new raise boon. That is an awful lot of AcP for the initial cost, and it going up every time makes it to where the only thing anyone is going to spend AcP on is raising characters.

I know in PFS1, I had to raise one (of 50) of my characters at least 5 times in his carreer. (He is 16th level now, kaw)

That this is on the player instead of the character means that after three or so raises, the cost will be out of most casual players means to get.

Where are you seeing the new Raise Boon?

It's the same old AcP Second Chance.

I'm hopeful that part of the "you get some of the stuff for free from your faction" is at least one free raise dead if you have enough rep with a faction.

So, like, instead of spend X fame for a raise, it would hopefully be something like if you have 40 rep with a faction, they will raise you once for free.

I also feel like I might be overly optimistic with that hope, but the alternative is just incredibly punishing after a decade plus of "save 16 prestige for a raise" and a year of something close in 2E.

Since we've been talking about venue connectivity and raise dead, does there need to be a change to the guide about clearing negative conditions before the adventure ends?

The Pathfinder Society takes care of its members by removing most ongoing nonpermanent negative conditions and repairing agents’ damaged gear to the condition it was in at the start of the scenario.

The following conditions are not automatically removed and must be cleared from the character before the end of the adventure or the character ceases to be available for organized play:

* Death
* Permanent petrification, polymorph effects, or negative conditions
* Curses

Seems punishing for those at venues without connectivity if this gets locked behind the AcP system, especially if the forthcoming faction benefits are part of the AcP system. Or does the AcP system let you apply boons to characters who are marked dead?

Since we've been talking about venue connectivity and raise dead, does there need to be a change to the guide about clearing negative conditions before the adventure ends?

Since at table reporting isn't a goal, I don't think the timing of the ACP matters all that much re condition removal.

For people not getting their 0 ACP boon right away, its going to happen to some people. Part of the listed reason for the switch was so the boon can come out later so either

1) The boon isn't out yet (in which case you can't get it)
2) The boon is out, the DM should tell you what it is. (Hopefully with Baseball card sized handouts)

If 2 doesn't happen you're just in the same boat as 1

If a player raises a character with the "Second Chance" boon (spending anywhere from 40 to 160 AcP), will that clear the Dead status online?

Or is it something entrusted to player/gm conversation of "yes, I will spend the AcP to raise my character..."

When I've asked that before, they said nothing would clear the condition if it is reported dead, so it has to be handled at the table. Which is awkward.

When I've asked that before, they said nothing would clear the condition if it is reported dead, so it has to be handled at the table. Which is awkward.

So as a matter of practicality it would be

DM "You're going to go home and get yourself raised?"
Player "Sure"
DM "Okay i DON"T mark you dead"

?

How do you make someone who has no reason to report, report?

There is no “one-shot” solution that works everywhere. It really comes down to that GM’s community taking action. If a GM refuses to report, then don’t play with them and don’t let them play either. When their bad behavior starts to impact their experience, maybe, they’ll get on board. That’s an extreme reaction, but so is refusing to report when it’s part of the agreement you make to participate in org play.

I guess I just don’t understand how these reports of such wantonly bad behavior are allowed to continue. Or maybe they are exaggerated reports. Dunno. Kind of like “every time I use the drive-thru my order is wrong.” It’s not every time, but frequent enough that is seems like it. And if the situation truly is “that” bad, then why do you continue to allow it to occur? As some suggested up thread, repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

I guess I just don’t understand how these reports of such wantonly bad behavior are allowed to continue.

At least one reason is that the choice in quite a few locations is between a GM who doesn't do the virtual paperwork and no game at all. GMs are often a very scarce resource.

Even now, you don't NEED the GM to report to continue to play at PFS. The chronicle sheets are still sufficient.

TwilightKnight wrote:

I guess I just don’t understand how these reports of such wantonly bad behavior are allowed to continue.

At least one reason is that the choice in quite a few locations is between a GM who doesn't do the virtual paperwork and no game at all. GMs are often a very scarce resource.

Even now, you don't NEED the GM to report to continue to play at PFS. The chronicle sheets are still sufficient.

In my local case, we put up with blatantly bad behavior because we have few GMs and relatively few players. You take the couple of habitually bad reporters away and you might not have a game every week.

I would love to cherry pick who GMs for me. I don't have that luxury. But at least for PFS1, I had the chronicles.