Organized Play Initiative: Digitization

Thursday, September 17, 2020

Starfinder Data Jockey, artist Alexander Nanitchkov

Starfinder Data Jockey by Alexander Nanitchkov

Several years ago, as part of the program assessment made at the time of the Pathfinder (second edition) Playtest, the team embarked on a huge initiative spanning several years: digitization. This year, with Covid-19 pushing us into our homes and away from our traditional spaces, we are both pleased to have started the process and dismayed that our timelines aren’t aggressive enough. But we’ve gotten through Phase 1 and we thought it would be a good time to talk over some of the items we’ve completed, as well as what Phase 2 looks like.

We are also making a huge plea to our GMs to report games and asking players to encourage their GMs to do so as well. Reported games give us our program data - how many people participated, what types of games did they play (scenarios/quests/bounties/Adventure Paths), where do they play (conventions, home games, FLGS). All of this data is necessary to plan for the program. We can’t argue we need to make more scenarios, for example, without the data that X number of people play scenarios. We’ve incentived the reporting through AcP, but we need the community to help us help them!


So where are we at with each program and where are we going?

Pathfinder Society (first edition): Its foundations lay in paper Chronicles, reporting sheets, character sheets, and boons. The emphasis on physical documentation made sense, as smartphones weren’t commonplace and computers expensive (and often not-portable). But as technology progressed, we stayed with paper, as that was what had been done. Twelve years on, we aren’t looking to change how we process Pathfinder Society (first edition) data. There is no benefit in trying to upload thousands of chronicles and boons. But we don’t want to limit those players that want to use digital tools. So we will maintain the hybrid state of the campaign, where you can either use digital or paper options and paper records (or digitized versions) remain the standard.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Society: As with Pathfinder Society (first edition) we have years of paper records for PACS. While the game is continuing in digital spaces during Covid, it is meant to be played in a physical environment. At this point, we don’t think bringing the records online is a necessity. If players wish to scan their Chronicles and boons to have a digital version, they are welcome to do so, but the program will continue within the hybrid environment. We will publish a Guide 7.0 via pdf that is in line behind the Pathfinder Society guide and should be sorted out in early October. At this time, there are no major program changes, so the guide will be a compilation of blogs.

Starfinder Society: This program started under the Pathfinder Society (first edition) format but is now existing alongside Pathfinder Society (second edition) and we want to shift them to be inline under organized play processes. This adjustment will happen by the launch of Year 4 and will do so in several chunks. We just issued Guide version 3.0 as a pdf, but Guide 4.0 is intended to be digital. We are phasing out boons and boon-slotting will end as of Year 4. Chronicle boons are moving online, as are Game Rewards, which take the place of Faction boons or other benefits that unlock once criteria are achieved. We will also be building an Achievement Points - SFS category that functions like the PFS version but draws on points earned for playing or GMing Starfinder games. We are not getting rid of Chronicles, but we will open up other methods of digital tracking. As we now have the bandwidth to correct reporting errors, including fixing factions, restoring deleted characters, adding missing AcP and refunding erroneous boons, we are confident we can keep our digital records clean.

Pathfinder Society (second edition): We’ve already implemented many of the items that Starfinder Society will embrace this year. Now that we have, we can remove some of the paper tracking that exists. The guide is online and had a facelift. Playing and GMing earns AcP-PFS and rewards for purchase appear on the Boons tab of your My Organized Play account. Chronicle Rewards are in and will go live next week. We’re converting the Faction Boons part of the guide to Game Rewards, which will be operational sometime in October. When it is ready to go live, we will let everyone know via blog and also how to convert boons purchased by Fame. We’ve simplified the Chronicle and the new version will appear in October scenarios. We plan to go back and put the simplified version into Year 2 by the end of 2020 as well as update all Year 1, though that is a larger project that will take longer due to resource need. The guide changes include language on how to track character progress. Chronicles will be one way, but a player may choose to track items via spreadsheet or other tool and keep that as their proof of play alongside their character sheet, making Chronicle sheets backups and relevant only to correct errors in the database. We’ve removed personally identifying information from the Chronicles as well (no more player name or GM signature) to help with player security and to make online completion easier.

So what is Phase 2?
  • Finishing streamlining Pathfinder Society (second edition) to make it easier to join and less cumbersome to track.
  • Bringing Starfinder Society in line with Pathfinder Society (second edition)
  • Overhauling reporting instructions/processes on paizo.com
  • Encouraging use of community developed tools for tracking and character management
  • Providing Organized Play Foundation volunteers with the tools/information they need to rebuild their site and generate community best practices documents.
What does this mean for the Pathfinder Society (second edition) Guide?

It will be available next Wednesday, September 23rd, after we wrap PAX Online/TPKon. This puts the release in the middle of the week instead of on top of major conventions. The guide underwent a major structural facelift in preparation for Year 2. While moving things around, we cut out duplicate text, revised the organization to make it read smoother, moved reference points/examples/longer descriptions to appendices, reformatted references to reflect publishing styles, and hyperlinked all of it. Once we know we don’t need to make further substantial changes, we will also manually compile a set of PDFs to go with it. While we will be able to update the digital guide, due to the amount of work involved, the PDF will not be updated throughout the year.

In addition, we are migrating the Guide from static pages to a Wiki-format to make finding items even easier. If everything goes well, we hope to have this ready for version 3.0 next GenCon. After a small period of testing and configuration, we should then be able to turn on the automated print to PDF feature, allowing the PDF of the Guide to be updated every time there is a significant change.

What are the major program changes appearing in the Pathfinder Society (second edition) Guide v2.0?
  • Tiers/subtiers are now levels/level ranges
  • Faction reputation system like in the Gamemastery Guide
  • Removal of boon slotting from the beginning of play. Some boons (advanced, minion, promotional) have limits.
  • How to use AcP to purchase Boons.
  • Pathfinder training is now simplified and has a chart for benefits.
  • Call out to slow track milestone leveling with less zeroes that does not reset.
  • Removal of Fame.
  • Characters gain Reputation with an individual faction and Total Reputation over all factions.
  • GMs have a Challenge Point reference section
  • Treasure Bundle Table
  • Expanded Downtime instructions and tables for easy reference

Fame is going away. As a GM, should I give out Fame on Pathfinder Society (second edition) Chronicles?
Short answer: No, GMs should not be adding Fame to any Chronicles earned.

Longer answer:

From Year 2 launch forward, Pathfinder Society adventure (or sanctioned adventure) do not award Fame. With AcP as a purchasing currency, we don’t believe the added complexity of tracking Fame necessary. We are working on how to convert already purchased Fame items into the digital environment as well as making sure we have AcP or Faction benefits that cover items that used to be available to purchase with Fame, such as Restorations or Infamy removal. We will have more information on how to convert Fame in an October blog.

Wow, that was quite a bit of information. As always, we are working towards delivering a quality organized play program and value input from our community. We do ask for any feedback to be constructive and that it be posted in forums or emailed so that we can see and respond

Until next week, when we preview our September Society scenarios (say that five times fast)
- Explore, Report, Cooperate!

Tonya Woldridge
Organized Play Manager

Alex Speidel
Organized Play Associate

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Organized Play Pathfinder Adventure Card Society Pathfinder Society Starfinder Society
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Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think eliminating fame is absolutely the right way to go - though I might suggest, since it maps 1 to 1 with AcP anyway, it might be useful for players and GMs to still track that number anyway so they know how many ACP per character they SHOULD have to make self auditing and figuring out where reporting errors have happened easier

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

Neat!

1/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Overall, great news and I am happy with this direction.

OP wrote:
Removal of boon slotting from the beginning of play. Some boons (advanced, minion, promotional) have limits.

Does this mean that boons without those traits are now effectively "slotless"/unlimited?

OP wrote:
We are working on how to convert already purchased Fame items into the digital environment as well as making sure we have AcP or Faction benefits that cover items that used to be available to purchase with Fame, such as Restorations or Infamy removal.

Where does this leave faction boons? There are a lot of really cool ones and I like buying them for my PCs.


To clarify...fame has been this stupid thing I've been tracking forever on all my sheets and it's just going to 'go away' and you think this is a good idea?

I worked for that resource. It took my time and all the other players time, and now you are just going to throw it out with this as the explanation.

Good thing I like pathfinder 2nd edition enough to deal with your society nonsense. You guys need to get your act together.

For future notice if your Player community works for something, then tracks it, you could at least give them something for it. Seriously this week alone I played 5 games, each one the DM had to note fame, and track it. Now it's garbage. I'm betting that this was 5 hours of combined human effort. How many hours do you think players have tracked this if you add up all their combined sheets. You could at least let them spend it on gold or boons. You literally make all this up. Just make something up to replace their hard work.

So disrespectful to your community.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ****

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Douglas Edwards wrote:
I think eliminating fame is absolutely the right way to go - though I might suggest, since it maps 1 to 1 with AcP anyway, it might be useful for players and GMs to still track that number anyway so they know how many ACP per character they SHOULD have to make self auditing and figuring out where reporting errors have happened easier

Fame doesn't map 1 to 1 with AcP though, as you get additional AcP for playing at conventions, when you don't get additional Fame.

Paizo Employee 5/55/5 * Organized Play Associate

caps wrote:

Overall, great news and I am happy with this direction.

OP wrote:
Removal of boon slotting from the beginning of play. Some boons (advanced, minion, promotional) have limits.
Does this mean that boons without those traits are now effectively "slotless"/unlimited?

More information on this will come with the Guide update.

caps wrote:
OP wrote:
We are working on how to convert already purchased Fame items into the digital environment as well as making sure we have AcP or Faction benefits that cover items that used to be available to purchase with Fame, such as Restorations or Infamy removal.
Where does this leave faction boons? There are a lot of really cool ones and I like buying them for my PCs.

Some Faction boons will become "automatic unlocks" once you reach certain Reputation tiers with a faction. Others may go away, or become purchasable for minimal cost once a character fulfills certain requirements.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

Fame really should be tracking through the reporting system as to what you have acquired. The issue right now is how do we report what we've already spent to this point?

Verdant Wheel 1/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Ningasak wrote:

To clarify...fame has been this stupid thing I've been tracking forever on all my sheets and it's just going to 'go away' and you think this is a good idea?

I worked for that resource. It took my time and all the other players time, and now you are just going to throw it out with this as the explanation.

Good thing I like pathfinder 2nd edition enough to deal with your society nonsense. You guys need to get your act together.

For future notice if your Player community works for something, then tracks it, you could at least give them something for it. Seriously this week alone I played 5 games, each one the DM had to note fame, and track it. Now it's garbage. I'm betting that this was 5 hours of combined human effort. How many hours do you think players have tracked this if you add up all their combined sheets. You could at least let them spend it on gold or boons. You literally make all this up. Just make something up to replace their hard work.

So disrespectful to your community.

Please read the entire article.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I am worried about the limiting of "minion" Boons.

My -2001 regularly slots the Ally Boon from the We Be Goblins playtest adventure, and two Hirelings that he's flavored as his kids.

In fact, when I rebuilt him for free, I factored the skills from those Hirelings into his rebuild so there wouldn't be any overlap.

Are these the "minions" you're speaking of? If they are, I'm probably not alone. How do we handle "refunds" of Boons?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 ***

Ningasak wrote:

To clarify...fame has been this stupid thing I've been tracking forever on all my sheets and it's just going to 'go away' and you think this is a good idea?

I worked for that resource. It took my time and all the other players time, and now you are just going to throw it out with this as the explanation.

Good thing I like pathfinder 2nd edition enough to deal with your society nonsense. You guys need to get your act together.

For future notice if your Player community works for something, then tracks it, you could at least give them something for it. Seriously this week alone I played 5 games, each one the DM had to note fame, and track it. Now it's garbage. I'm betting that this was 5 hours of combined human effort. How many hours do you think players have tracked this if you add up all their combined sheets. You could at least let them spend it on gold or boons. You literally make all this up. Just make something up to replace their hard work.

So disrespectful to your community.

Wow, that's a lot harsher than I feel about this change!

While I can understand your frustration a little bit, don't you think the living campaign of Pathfinder Society 2 should grow and adapt in order for things to get better? Sure we tracked and spent fame for a year or two and now we won't. I happen to like geeking out on all the paperwork and accounting sometimes (at least when I am not falling way behind on it), so I am worried I will miss Fame.
In the long run though, are you not being a little unreasonable considering I am sure they are spending their time trying to make this system the best it can be for all of our benefit? In my humble opinion, NOT being afraid to adapt and make changes to the system is a good thing, especially for a living campaign where things should be more free to change and adapt. Kudos for you guys working on this and thank you for your hard work. (Now don't screw it up and make me look bad (JK) :)
I am having a lot of fun with Society Play and am not opposed to change and trying new things.

4/5 5/5 * Contributor

Not gonna lie, I've been hoarding fame on PF2 and SF characters since those campaigns came out, and I don't think I've bought anything with them. I'm interested to see a new system that's streamlined and hopefully more transparent. The part that always lost me was having to referencing the Guide to OP.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ciphermagi wrote:
Ningasak wrote:

To clarify...fame has been this stupid thing I've been tracking forever on all my sheets and it's just going to 'go away' and you think this is a good idea?

I worked for that resource. It took my time and all the other players time, and now you are just going to throw it out with this as the explanation.

Good thing I like pathfinder 2nd edition enough to deal with your society nonsense. You guys need to get your act together.

For future notice if your Player community works for something, then tracks it, you could at least give them something for it. Seriously this week alone I played 5 games, each one the DM had to note fame, and track it. Now it's garbage. I'm betting that this was 5 hours of combined human effort. How many hours do you think players have tracked this if you add up all their combined sheets. You could at least let them spend it on gold or boons. You literally make all this up. Just make something up to replace their hard work.

So disrespectful to your community.

Please read the entire article.

I read the entire article. It looks like I have a bunch of characters with fame, and I planned on building up that fame to do things separate from what I was doing with achievement points, it now that plan is worthless, because I can’t get the few more points of fame I need to make that happen.

*

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Does this apply to Starfinder as well?

The article text only mentions Pathfinder, but "Starfinder Society" is one of the tags and the illustration is a Kasatha in a space suit using a computer interface.

Horizon Hunters 2/5 **** Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Were-wraith wrote:

Does this apply to Starfinder as well?

The article text only mentions Pathfinder, but "Starfinder Society" is one of the tags and the illustration is a Kasatha in a space suit using a computer interface.

Click the line that says "So where are we at with each program and where are we going?" and it will expand.

*

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Cordell Kintner wrote:
Were-wraith wrote:

Does this apply to Starfinder as well?

The article text only mentions Pathfinder, but "Starfinder Society" is one of the tags and the illustration is a Kasatha in a space suit using a computer interface.

Click the line that says "So where are we at with each program and where are we going?" and it will expand.

Ah, thanks. I thought those were just bullets, didn't realize I needed to click on them.

Scarab Sages 3/5 **** Venture-Lieutenant, Nebraska—Bellevue

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I think I get where you are going. But I do have some questions.

- GMs don't award Fame. As of today, I assume? The article references "as of season 2 launch", which was over a month ago. We aren't planning to go change chronicles since GenCon, right?

- Your edict is GMs don't award Fame. You don't deliberately say "Players can no longer spend Fame". Can a player binge on Fame spending between now and the Guide release?

- Will we be able to keep and use those boons we spend our fame on? Maybe a question for conversion. But until your projected October blog, are those things available for use? Will items (ie, wayfinders) purchased with fame still available to players?

I honestly don't mind changes to the campaign. However, it seems a little abrupt to kill Fame now and then tell us we'll find out what comes next sometimes in October. It leaves an awkward period where players are left hanging.

1/5 * RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Where do we report boon errors?

The last time I tried to purchase boons, it kept spending the wrong currency and applying to the wrong character.

*

10 people marked this as a favorite.

So, I'm very open to these changes. But I'm really scratching my head at the decision to do this now.

The AcP system is still riddled with bugs. I submitted a request two months ago asking for my Achievement Points to be corrected, and nothing has happened.

But in spite of its flaws, you're deciding to put even MORE of Society's boon system into the AcP system.

I'm really sorry to be such a grouch here, but I'm just bewildered by the team's continued insistence on making immediate systemic changes, when an actual, reliable technology solution won't be reliably in place for months or years.

I would feel a lot more faith in y'all's decision making if you followed the very simple order:

1) Set a long term goal for using the website

2) Come up with an interim solution that doesn't require the website

3) Develop and test the website solution

4) FINISH the website

5) Only THEN change the policy in a way that relies on the website

Michael, Tonya, and Alex, could you please explain why this is not the case today?

The only thing I can imagine is that you feel you must update the policy at the beginning of a season, even if the tech solution won't be finished until partway through the season (or, as in the case of AcP last year, the following season).

If that is your reasoning, I would urge you to abandon this thinking — either make changes part way through the season, or simply wait until the following year to institute the policy.

2/5 5/5 *

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I hope that there is a non-escalating raise dead option since the character-specific Fame version is being removed.

Grand Archive *

SO . . . here's a stupid question. How does one purchase a "secondary initiation?" Has that simply gone poof?

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Will the digital versions of campaign resources (eg; The Guild Guides) have an easy-to-print version since they are no longer .pdf?

Kind of important for me and I'm sure others.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 ** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Will the digital versions of campaign resources (eg; The Guild Guides) have an easy-to-print version since they are no longer .pdf?

Kind of important for me and I'm sure others.

The goal is to have easy to print pdf versions of the Guide not long after the changes are made. In the meantime, the facelift to the sight should make it far easier to search, a problem that has plagued the present website. I keep pushing for a printable copy... and I'm not gonna let up until we have one!

**

2 people marked this as a favorite.
NeverWinning wrote:
It looks like I have a bunch of characters with fame, and I planned on building up that fame to do things separate from what I was doing with achievement points, it now that plan is worthless, because I can’t get the few more points of fame I need to make that happen.

It's pretty clear in the article that they want to move everything that you could do with Fame to be done with AcP.

I agree it would have been better for them to finish the revision before the annoucement, but complaints about Fame being useless and wasting hours/days/decades of your life tracking it are probably going to be moot when they show up in the AcP boon list next week.

So at the very least, wait a week before declaring Paizo ruined your life.

1/5 *

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I read this blog and thought "they're going to stop making GMs write fame on Chronicles and then phase it out, neat." I did not understand that would mean I no longer get fame. There are several faction boons I was gearing up to buy, but I was waiting until I actually needed them. Now I *can't buy them at all*? That's... Pretty s#~+ty. I use the faction boons a lot on all of my characters, and even plan my builds around them. I get that at some vague point in the future there will be a new system that gives me access to (some of?) Those things, but not having access to them in the meantime is very upsetting.

I'm also not a fan of having to spend my AcP on those boons. Race boons are *expensive* and many of the faction boons are, in my opinion, must have. I don't like having to sacrifice race boons to get cool things related to my faction, and thematically I liked that my fame was tied to my *character's* achievements, rather than my achievements as a player/gm.

Is there a plan to hand out more AcP or reduce the cost of AcP things to make up for collapsing the two currencies into one?

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Cyrad wrote:

Where do we report boon errors?

The last time I tried to purchase boons, it kept spending the wrong currency and applying to the wrong character.

I believe Alex said to send the details to him at pfsreportingerrors@paizo.com.

I have found that once I am on the boon tab, if I reload the page it will display correct and will not make wrong choices.

Scarab Sages 4/5 ***

12 people marked this as a favorite.

I love PFS 2. The scenarios have been so engaging. Not gonna lie--you had me as a complete convert at The Mosquito Witch (my favorite adventure in at least the past 10 Years).

I'm not surprised to see changes in Organized Play, as the system is still new, kinks and bus are being worked out, etc. There are, ah, other systems that have had MUCH more radical changes made, for sure. I do echo some of the frustration about, well, dropping the change to fame on the player base. It's a bit unclear as to why I should be no longer awarding fame--what exactly is replacing it? I'm not privy to all the VO discussions, so I don't really know what's going on, and I can't tell my players anything.

I realize that this is going to sound like a criticism, and I suppose it is, but--

Paizo isn't exactly known for its website capability.

I don't understand why we'd want the website to handle more complexity, when it historically hasn't been able to handle its current level of complexity.

Who cares what I think? It really doesn't matter. But Paizo hasn't demonstrated the credibility that gives the player base confidence in its website being the final arbiter of Organized Play. I hope that, moving forward, it can.

1/5 *

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Not a big fan of this when there are so many weak points in the website - between the bugs and how hard it is to get accurate reporting (I have some sessions from two years ago that are wrong here despite multiple attempts to contact both the GM and Paizo), I have no faith that my records online will be accurate.

1/5 *

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Saint Bernard de Clairveaux wrote:
I'm just bewildered by the team's continued insistence on making immediate systemic changes, when an actual, reliable technology solution won't be reliably in place for months or years.

You and me both. Paizo could do some neat stuff if they could just get out of their own way...

3/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
caps wrote:
I'm also not a fan of having to spend my AcP on those boons. Race boons are *expensive* and many of the faction boons are, in my opinion, must have. I don't like having to sacrifice race boons to get cool things related to my faction, and thematically I liked that my fame was tied to my *character's* achievements, rather than my achievements as a player/gm.

^this

I'm all for moving onward with progress and digitizing stuff, but yeah...I'm very conflicted about this

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

1 person marked this as a favorite.

My concern is that with the elimination of Chronicles for the player, GM's will suddenly get new players with 16th level new characters joining games.

With everything going on, I wouldn't think the paper chronicle is the thing to jettison from the game as we make things easier with digital record keeping.

From all that is being looked at, from the Fame being removed (a move that seemed to be coming anyway, since there was no real use for it until the character was in danger of being perma dead) to the Boons of old being regulated to minor benies on the site and Ancestry/Race boons for AcP hoarders (Like me), I am not sure how this will translate to new players being able to get into this "Pen and paper" game.

Is there something being looked at for rewards for the players turning in their tokens for Gen Con, or is that going away as well?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Sean Montgomery 7819 wrote:
Ningasak wrote:

To clarify...fame has been this stupid thing I've been tracking forever on all my sheets and it's just going to 'go away' and you think this is a good idea?

I worked for that resource. It took my time and all the other players time, and now you are just going to throw it out with this as the explanation.

Good thing I like pathfinder 2nd edition enough to deal with your society nonsense. You guys need to get your act together.

For future notice if your Player community works for something, then tracks it, you could at least give them something for it. Seriously this week alone I played 5 games, each one the DM had to note fame, and track it. Now it's garbage. I'm betting that this was 5 hours of combined human effort. How many hours do you think players have tracked this if you add up all their combined sheets. You could at least let them spend it on gold or boons. You literally make all this up. Just make something up to replace their hard work.

So disrespectful to your community.

Wow, that's a lot harsher than I feel about this change!

While I can understand your frustration a little bit, don't you think the living campaign of Pathfinder Society 2 should grow and adapt in order for things to get better? Sure we tracked and spent fame for a year or two and now we won't. I happen to like geeking out on all the paperwork and accounting sometimes (at least when I am not falling way behind on it), so I am worried I will miss Fame.
In the long run though, are you not being a little unreasonable considering I am sure they are spending their time trying to make this system the best it can be for all of our benefit? In my humble opinion, NOT being afraid to adapt and make changes to the system is a good thing, especially for a living campaign where things should be more free to change and adapt. Kudos for you guys working on this and thank you for your hard work. (Now don't screw it up and make me look bad (JK) :)
I am having a lot of fun with Society Play and...

There’s a difference between being “afraid to adapt to change” and being frustrated with a change that actively takes away from an investment you’ve made. For instances all of the people that have been playing characters that have planed paths for them that accounted for fame can no longer fulfil the paths of their characters. Any plans that involved using both fame and Achievement points seem to effectively no longer be valid, meaning a lot of wasted time for a lot of players. That’s hundreds of hours of investment gone for what are probably your most dedicated players.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Watery Soup wrote:
NeverWinning wrote:
It looks like I have a bunch of characters with fame, and I planned on building up that fame to do things separate from what I was doing with achievement points, it now that plan is worthless, because I can’t get the few more points of fame I need to make that happen.

It's pretty clear in the article that they want to move everything that you could do with Fame to be done with AcP.

I agree it would have been better for them to finish the revision before the annoucement, but complaints about Fame being useless and wasting hours/days/decades of your life tracking it are probably going to be moot when they show up in the AcP boon list next week.

So at the very least, wait a week before declaring Paizo ruined your life.

Way to read a reasonable complaint and interpret it as Paizo is “ruining my life”. Kudos on being completely unable to accept criticism.

As for the article stating that you’ll be able to do everything with ACP that you can with fame, I never said otherwise. What it doesn’t say is that ACP costs will be reduced to compensate for the need to use them as a fame replacement in addition to their intended use. If that’s the intent, great, but it is neither stated or implied.

As for waiting for the details to react, if they wanted people to react To the details, they should have made the details available when making the change. Think about how long it took to get the last few books of PF1 to be integrated into organized play, and you’ll probably have an idea why I’m not waiting for them to finish a job half done.


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The basic idea of these changes seems to be great. Of course, I do expect that not everyone can be happy, but making things easier for GMs and staff is always good.

I also have my concerns about the capacity of the Paizo website. And the coding required. I wish them the best, but I know how hard it is, especially with the current state of the software the site is running. It just doesn't make changing/adding things easy from what I can see.

I hope that they deal with the differences between the current fame/ACP systems. Fame is earned per character and spent that way, a reward for that one character and to benefit that one character. ACP is earned per player as a reward for playing Paizo's games and spent differently. Those are two different pools. I hope that they are not combined without an additional increase. I do NOT want to have to leave behind what I want for one character to get another unrelated character something else. I should be able to keep one character well supplied without losing the chance to choose a new ancestry/background/boon/whatever for a new character.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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NeverWinning wrote:
Way to read a reasonable complaint and interpret it as Paizo is “ruining my life”. Kudos on being completely unable to accept criticism.

*holds up mirror*

Grand Lodge

Starfinder Superscriber

I do like the .pdf versions of the guides (I print and collect those in a binder), and anticipating the boons achieved at the end of a completed scenario is fun. But I’m willing to keep an open mind on this.

2/5

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

From Phase 2:

Tonya and Alex wrote:
Encouraging use of community developed tools for tracking and character management

I look forward to seeing what kind of support there will be to encourage community developed tools. I think it would be great if Paizo could act as an identity provider to these community developed tools, sharing limited data with user permission.

Player information is collected over and over again, but Paizo typically has all this information already (organized play id, character name, default championed faction, etc.).

For example, I have a software solution that collects player info, generates chronicles, and reduces reporting to just a few clicks. But that system is still a pain for users to have to fill in their info and is susceptible to data entry error. A better experience would be if they could just select their character based on their Paizo organized play data (and fallback to manual entry in the case of new player/new character).

4/5 * Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston

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Yeah, I'm not against this change at a conceptual level, but... Three points:

Announcing a change prior to implementing it, and implementing it prior to releasing it would seem to be the way to go. This was just done in an extremely blundering manner, and there's literally no good reason for that, and it unfortunately speaks, for me, to Paizo's competence on a whole on implementing things like this. The exact same thing happened with ACP, and apparently no lessons were learned. Can someone at Paizo address this? Issue some sort of statement as to their approach on these issues?

Beyond this, if there's any plan to grandfather in boons, I *highly* suggest some overlap between this announcement and people's ability to earn these boons. There were obviously people outside of Paizo more aware that *something* was happening here, and they've had at least some time to plan/come to grips with this, and... that is also pretty terrible. Not to mention people who were saving/building for something that now can no longer purchase it, but if they had just 2 more Fame could have had it grandfathered.

Finally, what's to be done about the plethora of incorrect reporting out there. For the record, I have 70 tables under my belt. I've ensured my chronicles are correct on all of those. However, basically each character I have with multiple factions are reported incorrectly. Namely two characters:
* One should have a 30/22 split, and has a 47/4 split.
* One should have a 31/59 split, and has a 53/33 split.
Like, these aren't even *close* to correct. You're giving me two options here, try to spend hours trying to reach out to lots of GMs across multiple venues/conventions to get this fixed... or lie and just say I have boons I don't "qualify" for. Let's be honest here, I'm doing the second, because this mistake isn't on me, it's on Paizo. Was there *any* effort to gauge the accuracy of chronicles relative to online reporting prior to releasing this? I have trouble believing I'm an anomaly in this regard, though it is possible.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern

tivadar27 wrote:

Yeah, I'm not against this change at a conceptual level, but... Three points:

Announcing a change prior to implementing it, and implementing it prior to releasing it would seem to be the way to go.

First, let's both acknowledge that there are things that happen behind the scenes at Paizo that neither players nor volunteers get to see that can influence decisions like this. In that same breath, I cannot speak for Tonya or Paizo, but I can share what I do know to help alleviate your concerns.

That said, because all season 2 adventures and bounties, starting with #2-00 that debuted at Gen Con Online (early August) do not award fame, questions had already started to arise as to what was up with that. I am very glad to know what the future is for fame in 2nd edition now, rather than being left to wonder as I continue to GM season 2 games for my players and field "why does this award reputation but no fame?" without having a good answer for them other than to watch for a future announcement.

The announcement of AcP and its implementation being delayed were due to technical issues. This change, as far as I'm aware, is using a framework that has almost all of the bugs worked out of it.

Quote:
Beyond this, if there's any plan to grandfather in boons, I *highly* suggest some overlap between this announcement and people's ability to earn these boons. There were obviously people outside of Paizo more aware that *something* was happening here, and they've had at least some time to plan/come to grips with this, and... that is also pretty terrible.

Tonya did mention that there would be a blog in October explaining how fame can be converted. As a VC, I can assure you that venture officers being "more aware" was pretty much the same as any GM - we noticed the lack of fame in season 2 scenarios, asked the powers that be if that was a typo or intentional, and were told to wait for a public announcement. Also, nothing is stopping anybody from using the fame rewards they've earned between now and October. Whether or not that's advantageous or not is something we'll all learn together next month.

Personally, I'm going to spend some fame on one of my PCs, but hold off on the rest to see what the future holds for conversion options. Given just how much work and late-hours Tonya, Alex, and the OPF team have put in to make this whole system player-friendly, I refuse to believe that those same players will find themselves getting a raw deal with this process.

Quote:
Finally, what's to be done about the plethora of incorrect reporting out there. For the record, I have 70 tables under my belt. I've ensured my chronicles are correct on all of those. However, basically each character I have with multiple factions are reported incorrectly. Namely two characters:

Snipped the rest, because this one is much easier to answer! Just reach out to your local Venture Captains. VCs can fix most reporting errors (outside of home-games played for PFS credit marked "private" on paizo.com), though your VC might need to ask for a few pieces of information; such as OPF/character number, event codes, and "Table #" (this will appear on the session tab under "My Organized Play").

I hope this allays your concerns a little bit. I know that systemic changes can be jarring (and sound even moreso when we don't have all the details yet), but please rest assured that the goal here is for everyone to have a more streamlined and fun playing experience - not to mess around with anybody's earned points for the sake of informatics or something! :)

4/5 * Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston

Mike Bramnik wrote:
...

To point one: No, there's no reason not to announce before releasing. I don't care what's going on behind the scenes. End of argument here. If you disagree, then I, personally, don't want to participate/be involved in any product you release.

To point two: You contradict yourself here. You state both that everyone had the same knowledge, and that you both noticed the lack of fame in season 2 scenarios which only GMs who have run season 2 might notice (I personally haven't played any yet), and you mention the late nights put in getting this system ready... perhaps that's rhetorical?

To point three: Wrong, as I said, multiple venues, both local and remote, as well as conventions. This, at a minimum, requires me (or someone) to sift through 70 tables of data, and then reach out to contact... I believe at least 4 or 5 people individually. It's not "easy".

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern

tivadar27 wrote:
To point two: You contradict yourself here. You state both that everyone had the same knowledge, and that you both noticed the lack of fame in season 2 scenarios which only GMs who have run season 2 might notice (I personally haven't played any yet),

GMs noticed, and thus players noticed.

Quote:
and you mention the late nights put in getting this system ready... perhaps that's rhetorical?

An over-generalization on my part. I was referring to Playtest Points, Achievement Points, digital boons - the system as a whole rather than any particular facet of it.

Quote:
To point three: Wrong, as I said, multiple venues, both local and remote, as well as conventions. This, at a minimum, requires me (or someone) to sift through 70 tables of data, and then reach out to contact... I believe at least 4 or 5 people individually. It's not "easy".

I'm afraid on this one you may simply be misreading what I'm saying.

A Venture Captain can fix reporting errors from any public game; be it a store event, a special game-day, an online game, or a convention. This means that you would only need to speak to your local VC, plus any GMs with whom you played with at private events that those GMs hosted themselves and marked their sessions "private" when they reported them (which your VC would be able to determine in the process of doing error-fixes).

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

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As I've had time to sleep on this, I would say that my chief worry is that this does encourage a haves and have-nots situation between those who frequent this website and those who don't.

I have players who have participated in dozens of starfinder scenarios and hundreds of pathfinder 1 scenarios who have like 1 or maybe 2 characters registered tops.

I worry that this will end up creating a gulf in power and create resentment.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

Mike Bramnik wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
To point two: You contradict yourself here. You state both that everyone had the same knowledge, and that you both noticed the lack of fame in season 2 scenarios which only GMs who have run season 2 might notice (I personally haven't played any yet),

GMs noticed, and thus players noticed.

Quote:
and you mention the late nights put in getting this system ready... perhaps that's rhetorical?

An over-generalization on my part. I was referring to Playtest Points, Achievement Points, digital boons - the system as a whole rather than any particular facet of it.

Quote:
To point three: Wrong, as I said, multiple venues, both local and remote, as well as conventions. This, at a minimum, requires me (or someone) to sift through 70 tables of data, and then reach out to contact... I believe at least 4 or 5 people individually. It's not "easy".

I'm afraid on this one you may simply be misreading what I'm saying.

A Venture Captain can fix reporting errors from any public game; be it a store event, a special game-day, an online game, or a convention. This means that you would only need to speak to your local VC, plus any GMs with whom you played with at private events that those GMs hosted themselves and marked their sessions "private" when they reported them (which your VC would be able to determine in the process of doing error-fixes).

Honest question can they? - in light of the results of the Michael Eshleman situation i thought a lot of that power got rolled back

2/5 5/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston

In regards to Tivadar's corrections, I'm a local VL with reporting access to the lodge events (and was the GM for probably a large fraction of them. I know I saw some errors early on where the website would submit the default faction even after selecting a different one, I can no longer recreate that error, so I think they fixed it). I'm working with him to get a list of either corrections needed, or ground truth from chronicles and I'll work through finding the deltas.

For other people going through a similar audit, the most useful view IMO, is go to the character's section on the summary, click Show Sessions, and then screenshot/printout and annotate corrections needed. This will show all the information needed by reporters as you pass it up the chain.

The only thing missing from the view, is it doesn't show bonus reputation yes/no checkbox. So some off by 2 errors can be hard to diagnose if a person has multiple factions that have received full credit, plus a mix of overlapping bonus reputation.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

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I also want to ask a tech question on reporting...

Is the outlier that has every session being reported saying "this scenario can be replayed for credit" despite that most are not evergreens/repeatables being reported being looked into?

4/5 ***

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There are a lot of posts on here making assumptions from incomplete information. I do not have time to address them all. I will answer some questions here, and the rest will have to wait till the guide comes out on Wednesday.

These clarifications are in regard to the PFS2 Guide *Only*

caps wrote:
OP wrote:
Removal of boon slotting from the beginning of play. Some boons (advanced, minion, promotional) have limits.
Does this mean that boons without those traits are now effectively "slotless"/unlimited?

Yes, All boons are now slotless.

You can only benefit from one of the above per game. You do not need to chose which one at the beginning of the game.

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Will the digital versions of campaign resources (eg; The Guild Guides) have an easy-to-print version since they are no longer .pdf?

Kind of important for me and I'm sure others.

This is answered in the blog post

[Season 2]

Quote:
We will also manually compile a set of PDFs to go with it. Unfortunately, due to the amount of work involved, this PDF will not be updated through-out the year.

[Season 3]

Quote:
After a small period of testing and configuration, we should then be able to turn on the automated print to PDF feature, allowing the PDF of the Guide to be updated every time there is a significant change.

I would like to point out that despite all the complaining about this, there has been a pdf of the guide (maintained by volunteers) since almost a week after the original guide released.

Nefreet wrote:
I am worried about the limiting of "minion" Boons.

PFS2 is moving to a "one pet per PC" structure, similar to PFS1.

Pathfinder Society (Second Edition) Guide to Organized Play (ver. 2.0) wrote:

Minions

With the exception of temporary creatures, such as those created by summon spells, No character can benefit from more than one minion pre scenario. Purchased Mounts do not count as minions, provided they do not take part in combat.
Pathfinder Society (Second Edition) Guide to Organized Play (ver. 2.0) wrote:
Ally: A boon with the Ally trait often places a Minion. An Ally boon cannot be used if the PC has already benefitted from a Minion.<<links to minion>>

(This is really just a reminder.)

Pathfinder Society (Second Edition) Guide to Organized Play (ver. 2.0) wrote:

]

Hireling Boon
Replace: “Special You can purchase this boon multiple times.”
With:“Special You can purchase this boon multiple times, but may only benefit from one hireling boon on any given adventure”

There is also some cleanup of the hireling language to clarify their use.

Ningasak wrote:


I worked for that resource. It took my time and all the other players time, and now you are just going to throw it out with this as the explanation.

I read the entire article. It looks like I have a bunch of characters with fame, and I planned on building up that fame to do things separate from what I was doing with achievement points, it now that plan is worthless, because I can’t get the few more points of fame I need to make that happen.

Fame is going away as a *spendable* resource. Instead, the reputation you earned will now unlock some things for free. Other things will get moved to ACP.

Existing fame based boons will be migrated to the new system.

There will be a grace period to spend fame while the new web system gets the bugs ironed out.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Getting a title without having to 'pay' for it would be kinda cool.

Escalating 'back from the dead' costs seems like it will promote a failure spiral and drive people away.

Thank you for assistance in clarification on what is intended JTT.

Now we hope it happens.

Parting thought -- what happens in the time between 'electronic' format and the POD .pdf?


TOZ wrote:
NeverWinning wrote:
Way to read a reasonable complaint and interpret it as Paizo is “ruining my life”. Kudos on being completely unable to accept criticism.
*holds up mirror*

I would be happy to accept criticism if it was grounded in fact, as opposed to just, assume that there are things happening that are in no way implied in the article. There’s a difference between criticism and disagreeing without adding anything to the discussion.

For instance, maybe take a look in that mirror of yours.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:


Yes, All boons are now slotless.

You can only benefit from one of the above per game. You do not need to chose which one at the beginning of the game.

Whoa there.

I don't know for sure about Pathfinder 2 (though I suspect it'll be similar) but for Starfinder this stands to bring about a HUGE shift in power.

There are a large number of fairly potent Ally and Personal boons out there and being able to use ALL of them....

Scenario Spoilers:
I would almost certainly blow some replays on a certain scenario within Salvations End....and make sure to play Dreaming of the Future on every character

1/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thank you for the clarifications! I am relieved for the time being.

Interesting. So I cannot slot the Ally boon from a certain playtest chronicle *and* a hireling *and* my eager protege at the same time? Eager Protege disallowing a hireling seems particularly disappointing.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

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Also while we're eliminating completely pointless mechanics why don't we get rid of School as well.

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