Organized Play Initiative: Digitization

John Francis wrote:

It's not the GMs responsibility to report tables.

The GMs job is to run the game, and make sure the relevant information is recorded and made available to the reporter (typically, but not always, a venture officer).

And the last thing we need is to task a busy and overworked GM with an extra 15-20 minutes of work at the end of the game (especially if the store is trying to get everybody out so they can lock the doors).

It is the job of the GM to report the table. It has ALWAYS been the job of the GM to report the table.

As JTT points out, there is no requirement to report the table immediately, just timely. If you are a GM who can complete the reporting sheet and hand it to someone else to enter than that is cool for that GM.

And if they can manage to make reporting at the table a workable arrangement with the system, the burden on the GM goes DOWN as they don’t have to write up chronicles at all.

It's not the GMs responsibility to report tables.

The GMs job is to run the game, and make sure the relevant information is recorded and made available to the reporter (typically, but not always, a venture officer).

I've yet to see a method of reporting from DM to reporter that wasn't the same speed or slower as just reporting.

So the report/record distinction is kind of irrelevant.

John Francis wrote:

It's not the GMs responsibility to report tables.

The GMs job is to run the game, and make sure the relevant information is recorded and made available to the reporter (typically, but not always, a venture officer).

I've yet to see a method of reporting from DM to reporter that wasn't the same speed or slower as just reporting.

So the report/record distinction is kind of irrelevant.

I have, but only because the Paizo site is so buggy. (I can record the character numbers as I am doing chronicles, and hand it off to someone. But if I do chronicle sheets *in between* entering numbers on the paizo site, it times out on me and crashes.)

As a person who computes primarily on my cell phone at this point i would like to +1 the issue that the paizo reporting tool is basically non functional on mobile.

I also think Jared hit on the real area in which the fame elimination + treasure bundle elimination are linked.

If I can play in a tier 1-2 adventure and know I always gain 4 experience and 15 gold (+ whatever from Day Job if you insist paizo) that makes tracking my character infinitely easier.

I need a much simpler spreadsheet than I have now or even better a simpke single sheet ledger to do what a trio of accordion files are doing for me now.

It also makes reporting easier. Just org play number and character number for each player is all I need.

There is no rule stating that the GM has to be the one to report a session of play. Anyone who wishes to do the task and is capable of performing the task can be designated as the reporter of that session, or even multiple sessions.

So is a player needing a separate sheet of paper to keep track of gold and exp now? Why is EXP not being spent (kept) after leveling when it is spent in the CRB? From the wording in the Guide, a character can only ever get to level 2, as higher levels do not have the exp chart for 24,36,48 and so on EXP levels to reach the higher levels that the kept EXP climbs to.

A lot of players will not keep a running tally of Gold on the character sheet (specially if they use Herolab) if you only have the two HUGE BOXES as seen in the guide.

A lot of players will not keep a running tally of Gold on the character sheet (specially if they use Herolab) if you only have the two HUGE BOXES as seen in the guide.

That is fine.

Astos wrote:

The check-in doesn't need to happen pre-session. Check in could easily happen at the session's conclusion. "Congrats on beating the baddie! If you want rewards, here's the session id. Type it in so I can associate your downtime to you."

most groups use the same event code for the event, you'd have to designate everyone there a reporter for the entire event to do that currently.

Although if you're proposing a change to how the website works so its like a google sign in form, that would be awesome , but again... paizo website.

Yeah, the proposal would be new development. But maybe we don't have to rely on current Paizo web tech/constrained dev time. Perhaps an outside solution could be developed as part of the "Encouraging use of community developed tools for tracking and character management" idea in this blog or tools developed by the Organized Play Foundation task forces.

By way of example, here's a demo of the solution I use to have chronicles generated/distributed and the session reported before players leave the table/discord chat: https://youtu.be/Clb7Trip0NU (spoiler: SFS 1-22 chronicle). It's very close to the idea I proposed. The UI could be refined a bit and there's some edge cases it doesn't handle yet, but the point is that a tool like this is already saving me a ton of time and providing a better experience to my players.

That solution could be further enhanced if it could integrate with Paizo data for authentication, organized play character data, and automated reporting. With the Organized Play Foundation task force route, maybe the Organized Play Foundation could be considered a Paizo partner like Lone Wolf/HeroLab and Roll20 to allow players to authorize access to their Paizo data.

Idea. Hear me out.

Paizo wants us to increase reporting. GMs have myriad incentives to report. Players need timely reporting for AcP and all of its associated rewards. Especially at Conventions.

But there are bottlenecks and catch-22s. The biggest one is that Leadership needs more reporting so they can get more resources to fix the problems that currently stymie reporting.

I believe event organizers should allow their GMs to report their games.

I already pushed this idea at my own Lodge, and my Venture Captain disagreed, but I have *always* been better at reporting my games than any of the designated reporters, so I know it can work.

For Lodges, this is a no brainer. GMs would be reporting their own games normally, don't toss up a roadblock by making them go through someone else. The more links in the chain, the weaker it's going to be.

For Conventions, I recognize that not every GM is savvy enough to report correctly. So. Organizers should be amenable to letting GMs report if they want to. Include a question on the signup sheet, asking your GMs if they're comfortable reporting their own games. I would happily check "Yes". If you're not one of those people, that's fine, you just hand off the reporting sheet to the organizer like usual.

Paizo seems super desperate to get games reported. Let's knock down as many barriers as possible to help them get more resources to develop a better system.

Heh. Apparently great minds stay up late ^_^

I find the idea hat adding an extra layer of bureaucracy for reporting by requiring a VO to do it makes things better is bizarre. As someone who mostly runs online and has always done his own reporting I wouldnt want it to be left to someone else. I am the person with the primary knowledge of what happened in the game, who played and what they obtained.

I believe event organizers should allow their GMs to report their games

I agree, but that kind of assumes they don’t. A lot of areas already do. All the organizer has to do is add them as reporters. One of my former local VOs never reported the events he coordinated. He left it to the GM to do it.

OTOH, for some events, without a significant change in how the website manages the process it would be impractical. Adding 300+ names to the reporting roster for Gen Con would be problematic. It would be incredibly difficult to verify all the GMs reported their table/s. It would also be much harder to follow up with errors since HQ would not have the reporting sheets to reference.

That being said, I did propose allowing the GMs to report at the table two years ago, but we determined it to be a variable that added an unnecessary level of inefficiency. However, they could have indicated on the sheet when they submitted it if they had already reported it. If I were a GM, because my rewards are just as important as my player’s I would like the opportunity, for my own piece of mind, to report my own tables. It is more likely for our data entry volunteers to make an honest mistake given the volume they have to address than it is for me to report my own table immediately after it was completed. I’m sure not many GMs would do it, but for every one that did, it’s that much less that the HQ staff have to. I just don’t know if it would actually work as intended.

There is no rule stating that the GM has to be the one to report a session

If you look up thread at Jared’s quote, there actually is a rule.

Jimmy Dick wrote:

There is no rule stating that the GM has to be the one to report a session

If you look up thread at Jared’s quote, there actually is a rule.

I read that more as a "default responsible person" that does it unless someone else takes over the responsibility, than as a carved in stone rule that the GM and only the GM is allowed to do it.

I think in practice that’s how it’s interpreted, but we cannot really say if that is the intention. Since this was a significant update to the Guide meant to clean up a lot of the language, it would have been the appropriate time to change that line to reflect which role or roles were responsible for reporting. Since they didn’t, we cannot be sure of their intention. However, since their website does not jive with the rule, it’s technically not enforceable since the only rule that makes any sense is for the event organizer to be the ultimate responsible party. They are the only one who can report unless they appoint otherwise by adding your name to the list.

There is no rule stating that the GM has to be the one to report a session of play. Anyone who wishes to do the task and is capable of performing the task can be designated as the reporter of that session, or even multiple sessions.

There is and Jared commented on it up-tread. I am quoting his post again here:

Technically it is the GMs duty, but they can report either to the Paizo site, or to their event coordinator.

Your Duties as a GM

Communicate with your local event coordinator.
Prepare an adventure to offer to players, including gathering the necessary supplies such as maps, miniatures, and reference materials.
Provide a welcoming environment for players.
Deliver session results to the player via established recording mechanisms.
Report the results of the game.

Your Duties as an Event Coordinator

Communicate with your local venture-officer network.
Schedule games and communicate about the event with prospective players.
Organize GMs and register players.
Provide a welcoming environment for players.
Arrange for player tools to be present.
Ensure reporting is complete for all games.

Yes, it is the GM responsibilities. Some areas, like mine, a VO takes that responsibility from the table GM to report the table. In other areas, it remains the GM's task.

Idea. Hear me out.

Paizo wants us to increase reporting. GMs have myriad incentives to report. Players need timely reporting for AcP and all of its associated rewards. Especially at Conventions.

But there are bottlenecks and catch-22s. The biggest one is that Leadership needs more reporting so they can get more resources to fix the problems that currently stymie reporting.

I believe event organizers should allow their GMs to report their games.

I already pushed this idea at my own Lodge, and my Venture Captain disagreed, but I have *always* been better at reporting my games than any of the designated reporters, so I know it can work.

For Lodges, this is a no brainer. GMs would be reporting their own games normally, don't toss up a roadblock by making them go through someone else. The more links in the chain, the weaker it's going to be.

For Conventions, I recognize that not every GM is savvy enough to report correctly. So. Organizers should be amenable to letting GMs report if they want to. Include a question on the signup sheet, asking your GMs if they're comfortable reporting their own games. I would happily check "Yes". If you're not one of those people, that's fine, you just hand off the reporting sheet to the organizer like usual.

Paizo seems super desperate to get games reported. Let's knock down as many barriers as possible to help them get more resources to develop a better system.

Ok, I am listening.

The decision at the lodge level should remain with the VOs. We are here to help facilitate the running, and reporting, of tables.

As for cons, especially the larger ones, those are a different beast. It has to be centralized to ensure that ALL tables are reported. For the big cons, I have often thought about a reporting sheet that is machine scan able, much like an answer sheet for a standardized test. But designing the lay out and getting the necessary equipment to do it onsite may not be practical.

The importance of reporting is, finally, becoming clear at all levels. Player are holding GMs accountable, and GMs are holding event coordinators accountable.

Idea. Hear me out.

I believe event organizers should allow their GMs to report their games.

At a large con under current tech wouldn't that give DMs access to a large amount of player data?

Nefreet wrote:

Idea. Hear me out.

I believe event organizers should allow their GMs to report their games.

At a large con under current tech wouldn't that give DMs access to a large amount of player data?

Huh?

Same amount of player data I have access to running my own PbP events. I.e. I have access to all the public, which isn't much, player data right this moment. Heck, even if I never GMed a game, I have access to it. Efficiently? No. But I definitely have access.

Nefreet wrote:

Idea. Hear me out.

I believe event organizers should allow their GMs to report their games.

At a large con under current tech wouldn't that give DMs access to a large amount of player data?

No really. Being a reporter on an event just lets you report. You can't see much about the other tables that have been reported by other reports. In fact, it is difficult for the event coordinator to see much about what a reporter has reported for their event.

It can be as easy as asking your GMs if they want to report.

----------------------------------------------

Potential GM: "Hey! Mind if I GM next week? I could use the extra AcP!"

Organizer: "Happy to see the enthusiasm! Would you like to report the game, or should I?"

Would generate two different responses. Either:

"I'd like to report it! I need my Lizardfolk ASAP!"

Or

"Can you do it? Every time I try, Paizo's website crashes."

-----------------------------------------------

Then scale that up depending on the Event. If an Event Organizer doesn't feel comfortable with either the idea, or certain individuals, then obviously use your discretion, but I think we should be more open to the idea than is currently handled.

At least test it out and maybe GMs that have never reported before will surprise you.

Hillis Mallory III wrote:

A lot of players will not keep a running tally of Gold on the character sheet (specially if they use Herolab) if you only have the two HUGE BOXES as seen in the guide.

That is fine.

So a 1st level character with 20k gold can't be audited because there is no tally, what do we tell that player?

Is that really a situation we expect to deal with?

I mean, I have seen players rock up with dire wolves because "they fed it a lot" but...

Jared Thaler wrote:

Hillis Mallory III wrote:

A lot of players will not keep a running tally of Gold on the character sheet (specially if they use Herolab) if you only have the two HUGE BOXES as seen in the guide.

That is fine.

So a 1st level character with 20k gold can't be audited because there is no tally, what do we tell that player?

Why can't they be audited?

Upon completing an adventure, players each receive a Chronicle sheet from the GM. This sheet includes a summary of the adventure; indications of any choices made along the way which may impact the future of the campaign, and a log of rewards earned while exploring. It also provides areas for notes, purchases, and the acquisition/removal of conditions. Players using other tracking methods should ensure all the data on the Chronicle is reflected in their records.

Players may choose to keep their records digitally or in paper files. If stored digitally, players must be comfortable with GMs handling their device while reviewing records. If in paper files, all pages must be carried to games.

The audit trail just doesn't have to be on their chronicle sheets. It can be on hero lab, it can be on a seperate spread sheet, it can be whatever format is easiest for the player, and which they are able to share with the GM.

At least test it out and maybe GMs that have never reported before will surprise you.

I am not saying I am not open to the idea. We have a small number of regular GMs with most are already a reporter. Not every GM needs to be a reporter.

Different lodges have different dynamics. Decisions made by VCs are influenced by many factors, some of which the players/GMs don't know about and likely really don't care about.

Players should not expect tables reported with minutes of the table ending. That is not realistic for most tables. Those who pull it off, great job!

Personally I hold myself to the standard of "for tables I run at events for which I'm a reporter, I will report the evening of, or at worst within 24-hours." I don't have any GMs who aren't reporters at my local lodge that I need to get sheets from. If I did I would probably add 24 hours to my personal deadline.

I'm curious to see if I can hit that standard at the con I'm running tomorrow or not, where I'll be one of three reporters for ~40 tables. We're requiring GMs to report by noon the following day. So theoretically I could still hit my 24 hour goal, but I suspect we will need to chase some GMs.

My volunteer efforts before PFS were in another hobby and we always saw if results weren't posted within 48 hours of the event end, people decided you didn't care about them, and that the people responsible for posting would put it off longer and longer. Ie there's an initial peak between 6 hours and 48 hours post event, then a void until the next weekend with another peak, then a long, long tail after that.

Players should not expect tables reported with minutes of the table ending. That is not realistic for most tables. Those who pull it off, great job!

Players should demand at-table reporting. The fact that someone could go several slots at a convention without getting use of a 0AcP scenario boon is such a feel-bad.

Players should demand at-table reporting. The fact that someone could go several slots at a convention without getting use of a 0AcP scenario boon is such a feel-bad.

I don't think this is feisable

Many places don't have wi fi,
people clear out of game stores as the place is closing
At conventions the DM has lunch and other slots to get to
The website sometimes derps
Many conventions want the reporting and the DMs will all finish at the same time.

I mean, I have seen players rock up with dire wolves because "they fed it a lot" but...

I approve this plan!

Jimmy Dick wrote:

There is no rule stating that the GM has to be the one to report a session of play. Anyone who wishes to do the task and is capable of performing the task can be designated as the reporter of that session, or even multiple sessions.

There is and Jared commented on it up-tread. I am quoting his post again here:

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:

Technically it is the GMs duty, but they can report either to the Paizo site, or to their event coordinator.

Your Duties as a GM

Communicate with your local event coordinator.
Prepare an adventure to offer to players, including gathering the necessary supplies such as maps, miniatures, and reference materials.
Provide a welcoming environment for players.
Deliver session results to the player via established recording mechanisms.
Report the results of the game.

Your Duties as an Event Coordinator

Communicate with your local venture-officer network.
Schedule games and communicate about the event with prospective players.
Organize GMs and register players.
Provide a welcoming environment for players.
Arrange for player tools to be present.
Ensure reporting is complete for all games.

Yes, it is the GM responsibilities. Some areas, like mine, a VO takes that responsibility from the table GM to report the table. In other areas, it remains the GM's task.

I disagree. The GM can delegate authority for reporting. It is called doing what works. Not only that, but players can and should step up when GMs don't report. If a GM has to be the one that reports a session, then that's a dumb rule. I don't follow dumb rules.

It is the GM's responsibility to make sure the table is reported.

How they go about that is not restricted.

I disagree. The GM can delegate authority for reporting. It is called doing what works. Not only that, but players can and should step up when GMs don't report. If a GM has to be the one that reports a session, then that's a dumb rule. I don't follow dumb rules.

Hmmm. Only those who has the responsibility can delegate that responsibility to someone else.

I never said the GM has to be the one to report. Only that they are responsible for the reporting being done. Who are the player going to contact first? The GM. The person responsible.

We are saying the same thing. Not sure why we appear to be not in agreement.

The thing you are missing is that to report the person has to be a reporter for event. A player is not likely to be setup as a reporter.

Plus I don't want just anyone reporting on my events.

I had heard a rumor that after Gencon, GMs would recieve a Chronicle Sheet every time they ran a scenario, not only for repeatable scenarios. It would still fall under the rules of one scenario credit per character, but it would further incentivise GMs to run the same non-repeatable scenario again for another set of players. I know I've run some of them 5 or 6 times. But, I see on the current version of the guide that this not the case.

Can it be? Please?

Yes, we get ACP. Yes, we get a table credit. But if the local players currently playing have not played Mosquito Witch and really want it, I guess I'll run it a 10th time. It would be nice if I could assign that CS to another character.

That's just my pair of coppers, take it or leave it.

Well, we had inventory sheets in PF1 taking the place of the on chronicle tally earlier. Still using those in Starfinder?

So, with the return of the item tracking on the chronicle in the first season of PF2, I begin to become confused as the item squares (tiny as they are) are still around but no way to do the math for the gold spent or gained.

Should we bring out the separate gold tracker sheet now?

As far as reporting goes, one of the stores here in my area has the GM's give the reporting sheet to the clerk/owner of the store for them to do the reporting.

I think everyone in this thread wants sessions reported quickly (for slightly different definitions of quickly, but still quickly)!

Parts of this thread have been talking about removing the barriers surrounding quick reporting. I think barriers can be removed by letting the people closest to the problem solve it (i.e. table GMs). One of those barriers is definitely VO/event organizer required reporting. I ran 4 games for an RSP event code recently and they're unreported back to July 4. They would be reported by now if I were a reporter on the event or if it were my own event code. Yes, I have been VO poking. I don't want to VO poke. I want to get the games reported.

I see a desire for VO/event coordinator oversight of reported events; there's an argument there for tools that give them a better view of the data so they could review sessions after they're reported. I don't want it, but you could even have an approval step in there where the GM reports and a VO/event coordinator just has to click an Approve button. A good view of the data would help event coordinators make sure all events were getting reported.

Nefreet's idea of per-GM delegation is great. Maybe if enough GMs at an event self-report, it could take enough load off of an HQ scorekeeper to get the rest of the games reported before the next slot starts (with potential assists from GMs that ran a 3 hour session).

Yes, events without connectivity can fall back to current ways. I'm just sharing my experience: I have connectivity at the stores, small regional conventions, and major conventions that I attend. I frequently use my phone to google rules or kill time between sessions. I don't know if the no connectivity experience is more prevalent to mine. But that's why a hybrid approach can be valuable.

One of those barriers is definitely VO/event organizer required reporting.

I'm guessing you don't manage your own event, so not as an argument for or against anything but to provide information. If I have read into statements you've made and you do know this, just ignore.

GMs don't have an automatic ability to report (even though they have the responsibility).

The person who creates the "event" on the Paizo site is the reporter.

That person can add reporters (e.g. other VOs or the local GMs), one by one, I believe, I've never added someone to my events.

When a random person signs up to GM at a game day, you've got to add them.

I had heard a rumor that after Gencon, GMs would recieve a Chronicle Sheet every time they ran a scenario, not only for repeatable scenarios. It would still fall under the rules of one scenario credit per character, but it would further incentivise GMs to run the same non-repeatable scenario again for another set of players. I know I've run some of them 5 or 6 times. But, I see on the current version of the guide that this not the case.

Can it be? Please?

Yes, we get ACP. Yes, we get a table credit. But if the local players currently playing have not played Mosquito Witch and really want it, I guess I'll run it a 10th time. It would be nice if I could assign that CS to another character.

That's just my pair of coppers, take it or leave it.

No. This was never made a rule. I believe someone proposed discussing whether this *should be* a rule, but I believe that is as far as it went.

Well, we had inventory sheets in PF1 taking the place of the on chronicle tally earlier. Still using those in Starfinder?

So, with the return of the item tracking on the chronicle in the first season of PF2, I begin to become confused as the item squares (tiny as they are) are still around but no way to do the math for the gold spent or gained.

Should we bring out the separate gold tracker sheet now?

As far as reporting goes, one of the stores here in my area has the GM's give the reporting sheet to the clerk/owner of the store for them to do the reporting.

There is plenty of room elsewhere on the sheet to do it. Or you can have your own sheet. It is entirely up to you. That is the whole point. Do it however *you* find the easiest to manage.

Also, I am neither lugging a laptop to a convention or trying to do data entry from my kindle.

Also, I am neither lugging a laptop to a convention or trying to do data entry from my kindle.

Tablets are the answer :-). Lighter and longer lasting than a laptop and far bigger screen than a Kindle.

Inexpensive too, depending on what you need. I picked one up for $100.

Really don't like trying to do data entry on any kind of tablet.

Well, we all have different preferences. I’ve done reporting from my phone before.

The point is having a system the focuses on 21st century technology to make functionality to be as efficient as possible, while allowing options for those without said technology. We should strive for “table side” reporting and 100% digital document tracking, but have options for those who cannot/will not follow that standard.

Well, we all have different preferences. I’ve done reporting from my phone before.

Damn you and your tiny opposable thumbs!

I certainly don't recommend it!

The point is having a system the focuses on 21st century technology to make functionality to be as efficient as possible, while allowing options for those without said technology. We should strive for “table side” reporting and 100% digital document tracking, but have options for those who cannot/will not follow that standard.

If they want to make reporting easy, set it up so I can copy paste an entire field of data from google docs into their system ala the paint special ability. Copy paste done.

So, obviously not everyone may have a smartphone, so this comment isn't directed at them, but:

You don't need wifi to report from your phone, you just need a signal. I highly doubt that the number of games taking place in a signal dead zone is significant.

Logistically, reporting from your phone takes a few key strokes longer. Maybe a minute? Or two? I'm being literal, here.

That just really strikes me as a "first world problem" defense.

So, obviously not everyone may have a smartphone, so this comment isn't directed at them, but:

You don't need wifi to report from your phone, you just need a signal. I highly doubt that the number of games taking place in a signal dead zone is significant.

Logistically, reporting from your phone takes a few key strokes longer. Maybe a minute? Or two? I'm being literal, here.

That just really strikes me as a "first world problem" defense.

A surprisingly large number of hotel ballrooms that conventions take place in are dead signal zones.

That just really strikes me as a "first world problem" defense.

At best, try to imagine the increased number of entry errors from typing on a phone vs. typing on a keyboard.

While Paizo may just be looking for increased reporting, on the players end the player not only needs the DMs have to report, but that they have to report the player AND character numbers exactly correct every time or things get wonky.