Rarity and Availability in Organized Play

Thursday, August 27, 2020

A dhampir human who wields sword and flame. A leshy vigilante who patrols the streets in a bright mask. A hobgoblin champion who looks positively dashing in his Golden Legion epaulets. Today, let’s take a bit of a look into how rarity and access combine to show what options are legal for use in Organized Play (and how you can play that dhampir leshy vigilante dragon disciple, if that’s what you want!).

A dhampir in red and black armor, holding a staff

Art by Warmics Mario Vazquez

What is Rarity?

Rarity is built into the ground level of Pathfinder Second Edition, which makes it very easy to use in the Pathfinder Society campaign. The Core Rulebook describes rarity:

"If no rarity appears in the traits of an item, spell, or other game element, it is of common rarity. Uncommon items are available only to those who have special training, grew up in a certain culture, or come from a particular part of the world. Rare items are almost impossible to find and are usually given out only by the GM, while unique ones are literally one-of-a-kind in the game. The GM might alter the way rarity works or change the rarity of individual items to suit the story they want to tell.

It’s important to note that uncommon or rare options are not inherently stronger than common ones—talking corpse is no more powerful than other level 4 divination spells—just that they might not mesh well with certain story concepts or they might require a certain level of GM buy-in. After all, a murder mystery wouldn’t really make sense if anyone in the world knew how to cast talking corpse on the victim to ask who the culprit was.

What is Availability?

You might notice that the Core Rulebook references the GM in several places. Since Pathfinder Society doesn’t have just one GM, the organized play team acts as campaign GM, using a system of availability to show what options are legal for play. There are three kinds of availability for Pathfinder Society:

Standard: Standard availability just means that the option’s rarity for Organized Play is unchanged from the rarity printed in its sourcebook. If the option is common in the sourcebook, that means it’s common for Pathfinder Society, so you can take it as-is (assuming you meet all the usual prerequisites). If the option is uncommon in the sourcebook, that means it’s uncommon for Pathfinder Society, so you need to gain access to it somehow (see below for more on that!). Almost all options are standard availability unless otherwise stated.

Limited: Limited availability means that the option won’t be seen as often in Society play. If an option is limited, it means that you can’t select it unless you have a boon that specifically allows it—even if the option is common or if you have access to it. Options are limited if we want to save them for special rewards (usually for scenarios with heavy ties to certain regions or factions), or if we’re not allowing them in the campaign at this time.

Restricted: A restricted option functions exactly like a limited option—you can’t select it unless you have a boon that specifically allows it. The main difference, though, is to signal that these options shouldn’t be expected to enter Society play anytime soon, either because they don’t make sense for large numbers of players to be running around with (such as unique weapons), require above-average amounts of GM adjudication (such as the Plot the Future feat, which requires the GM to give advice to the player about future actions within the next week), or are outside the tone of the shared campaign setting (such as certain evil deities or spells). Restricted options usually enter the campaign in small numbers, such as via charity boons, if at all.

Rather than saying options are allowed or banned, as was the case in Pathfinder First Edition, we designate them as standard or limited/restricted instead. This helps to keep everything working within the same rarity system as used in all other Pathfinder products, and it also makes it easier for us to allow options later down the line if things change.

Dragon Disciple with red robes and wings

Art by Kiki Moch Rizky

Gaining Access to Uncommon Options

So, what should I do if I want to use an uncommon option for my Pathfinder Society character? There are five main ways to gain access:

  1. Automatic Access: Pathfinder Society players gain automatic access to a variety of options—such as the kobold ancestry, the vigilante archetype, or Pathfinder-specific equipment like the wayfinder—just by being part of the Pathfinder Society! Check the Character Options Blog to see if you already have access to the option you want to take.
  2. Character Origin: Just like in non-Society play, your character’s backstory—such as their ethnicity, region of origin, or any groups they belong to—might give them access to certain options.
  3. Player Options: Some common feats, ancestries, classes, or the like can grant you access to uncommon options further down the line. For instance, the dragon disciple archetype is uncommon, but if you’re a dragon instinct barbarian or a draconic bloodline sorcerer, you gain access. Similarly, many uncommon ancestral weapons, such as gnome flickmaces or elven curve blades, can be accessed with common ancestry feats.
  4. Achievement Points (AcP) Purchase: Achievement Points earned by playing and GMing games can be used to purchase access to uncommon or rare options. You can check the total AcP you’ve unlocked for Pathfinder Society (2e) and the boons available to purchase by signing in to your My Organized Play account and going to the “Boons” tab. This is also the main way to select an uncommon ancestry or heritage.
  5. Adventure Unlocks: Lastly, boon unlocks from completing certain adventures or achieving Faction goals grant access to thematically related uncommon or rare options. In Year 1, these boons were located on the Chronicle Sheet of each adventure, but moving forward into the future, you’ll now find these boons in the same place as those purchasable with AcP on the “Boons” tab of your My Organized Play page.


It’s important to note that, while you can use these methods to gain access to many uncommon options, not all options yet have a way to gain access to them. Many of these are things we’re waiting for the right adventure to give out as a reward; for instance, it seems underwhelming to grant access to a Baba Yaga feat or a Jatembe spell without interacting with Irrisen or the Magaambya in some way to learn these legendary techniques.

As the campaign’s ongoing storyline progresses and evolves, the actions of you, the players, will also influence what is made available in the Pathfinder Society campaign. Be sure to report your scenarios and check any boxes—after all, your successes and choices can shape the world of Golarion, and with it, the options your characters can find within it!

James Case
Organized Play Developer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Organized Play Pathfinder Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Second Edition Pathfinder Society
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For adventure unlocks of boons in the future, can we expect the chronicle sheet to at least indicate that there's a boon associated with the scenario? Or will it kind of silently show up on the AcP page?

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That's really exciting that boon unlocks from playing recorded games will automatically show up on our My Organized Play tab!!

HUZZAH!

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Quote:
Just like in non-Society play, your character’s backstory—such as their ethnicity, region of origin, or any groups they belong to—might give them access to certain options.

So I don't need to spend fame on Secondary Initiation if my character was a member of the Knights of Lastwall if they want to buy a Crimson Brand?

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Let's see, working through the list of requirements:

The crimson brand is uncommon, but in the section that says" The following equipment is available to Knights of Lastwall. The fauchard and armored skirt are common items."

Knight of Lastwall requirements are:
"Membership Requirements any of the following: refugee of Lastwall, previous membership in the Knights of Ozem, sponsorship by a knight in good standing and approval from two others"

I'm of the opinion the at the Lastwall Refugee background should count to match the first criteria, but when I asked about it in the past I think I was told only secondary initiation covered it....

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I have to admit that I am very intrigued to see how all this will come together, but thanks for writing up some long overdue clarifications! It will be good to be able to point to this blog whenever new people come asking how to get access to uncommon options!

Dark Archive 3/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Jasper

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It wasn't until I saw this blog that I realized that I should play a leshy dragon disciple.

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Hmm wrote:

I have to admit that I am very intrigued to see how all this will come together, but thanks for writing up some long overdue clarifications! It will be good to be able to point to this blog whenever new people come asking how to get access to uncommon options!

Likewise - a great blog post today. Thank you for that, James!

Also, given how much I enjoyed Russian folklore even before I discovered Pathfinder (and how much more GMing all of Reign of Winter enhanced that), I would literally jump (not an easy task for me, mind) at just the chance for that one potential option you mentioned, there!

Grand Lodge ***

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A translation into german can be found on my blog at http://pfs2.talonzorch.de/?p=212

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Dustin Knight wrote:
Quote:
Just like in non-Society play, your character’s backstory—such as their ethnicity, region of origin, or any groups they belong to—might give them access to certain options.
So I don't need to spend fame on Secondary Initiation if my character was a member of the Knights of Lastwall if they want to buy a Crimson Brand?

Not quite correct -

If you are a member of the Knights of Lastwall, then you have access to a Crimson Brand. That much is clear.

What does it take to become a member of the Knights of Lastwall? You'd have to fulfill the entry criteria to join the organization, and then "take the option" to join the organization. What option is that? The Secondary Initiation boon.

Now, the Secondary Initiation boon overrides the usual entry criteria, so while normally you'd have to do one of the following:
- Be a refugee from Lastwall (perhaps with the Lastwall Refugee background?)
- Have been a member in the Knights of Ozem (no clear way to do that apart from GM say-so)
- Get sponsored by two knights in good standing (also a nebulous RP requirement)

This isn't really different from the Hellknight test which required you to fight a duel against an appropriately difficult devil. The only real difference is that the Lastwall Refugee seems to be a less-nebulous workaround, but that still just gets you past the requirements, it doesn't actually make you a member. It's not like there's actually a feat you can take saying "I'm a member now".

That's what Secondary Initiation does: it basically says "your powerful friends in the Pathfinder Society talked to some people and got you into the [Knights of Lastwall] and now you're a member".

Grand Lodge 4/5

How will some of these requirements be treated ? Either direct GM oversight ou waived off like some were in PFS 1 ?


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So, I had a look on my boon section out of curiosity of how this will potentially look, and discovered I have a Chronicle Boon relating to an adventure (indicated by the name) I haven't done. I'm also not sure how it'll play out having to buy said Chronicle Boon before you play an adventure, unknowing who gained it and if it'll relate to the current adventure before you're at the table. I'm definitely curious and keen for a digitalisation of the Organised Play process, but looks like there's a few natural odd little kinks to things.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Philippe Lam wrote:
How will some of these requirements be treated ? Either direct GM oversight ou waived off like some were in PFS 1 ?

That's the point of the Secondary Initiation boon - you pay the 2 Fame to have those requirements handled off-screen because there's no good way to do them on-screen in an organized play campaign.

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:


...
Now, the Secondary Initiation boon overrides the usual entry criteria, so while normally you'd have to do one of the following:
- Be a refugee from Lastwall (perhaps with the Lastwall Refugee background?)
- Have been a member in the Knights of Ozem (no clear way to do that apart from GM say-so)
- Get sponsored by two knights in good standing (also a nebulous RP requirement)

This isn't really different from the Hellknight test which required you to fight a duel against an appropriately difficult devil. The only real difference is that the Lastwall Refugee seems to be a less-nebulous workaround, but that still just gets you past the requirements, it doesn't actually make you a member. It's not like there's actually a feat you can take saying "I'm a member now".

That's what Secondary Initiation does: it basically says "your powerful friends in the Pathfinder Society talked to some people and got you into the [Knights of Lastwall] and now you're a member".

I think that phrases it in a way that I'm more comfortable with why Lastwall Refugee doesn't count on its own. Memberships requirements are fundamentally filling the same goal as Access. So fulfilling them makes it available to join the organization, but the actual joining always happens 'off-screen' as its not a player option. Therefore Secondary Initiation covers three things a) fulfilling any membership requirements, b) actually joining, c) counting as any 'rank' requirements in the organization.

Now they could print a General Feat of 'Join an Organization' AccessFulfill the memberships requirements for the desired org.
You're now a member of the organization.

This could separate steps a,b,&c. And Secondary Initiation would still be valuable since its the only way to achieve the specific named ranks that some of the archetypes require. But a & b alone would be enough for many of the equipment access paths. (Of course Secondary Initiation is cheap enough to make such a feat not really needed, and SI is set up to block unintended combos of things between differents orgs.)

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Riobux wrote:
So, I had a look on my boon section out of curiosity of how this will potentially look, and discovered I have a Chronicle Boon relating to an adventure (indicated by the name) I haven't done. I'm also not sure how it'll play out having to buy said Chronicle Boon before you play an adventure, unknowing who gained it and if it'll relate to the current adventure before you're at the table. I'm definitely curious and keen for a digitalisation of the Organised Play process, but looks like there's a few natural odd little kinks to things.

I definitely suspect they're testing. Now if I understand their plan, it should not show up to people who haven't GM/played it, so its a bug if you're seeing it, but at least its a fairly harmless one.

I've played that scenario. (The following spoiler talks about 'types' of boons but doesn't give any details.)

About the listed boon, in re. 1-04:

The 'Chronicle boon' listed is one of the 'this boon may come up later' style boons, that we've been told are going away and will be tracked via the checkboxes on the chronicle or just by having played the scenario.

This makes it particularly good to test with, as it reveals practically nothing. '[named npc] will remember you'. If a person clicks it by accident, they learn the name of an NPC. The word-play nature of the title of the boon/NPCs name helps provide cover for even what role the NPC plays. It doesn't promote metagaming at the table, and it doesn't promote boon-hunting ahead of time by looking through the list before they're locked down properly.

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Not sure about others but I've been notoriously bad about remembering to check the boxes for scenario outcomes when I report an event, especially at a convention where I am rushing to get all the paperwork done at the end of a slot. It's nearly impossible to catch unless they are structured in a way going forward that at least one will always be checked. But it does create one more thing that convention organizers will have to track down if a GM forgets.

So now I worry that players are going to miss out on boons if they are tied to those checkboxes.

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The other thing that requiring the Secondary Initiation boon (and also the Home Region boon) provide is reining in (lower case 'b')-background advantages.

Else there would be nothing to control this:

I'm a half-Varisian, half-Tian who lived among the Eratuki and then came south and joined the Knights of the Lastwall before heading to Nantambu to join the Mygaambyan Academy after which I moved to Jalmaray and studied under the Houses of Perfection in order to infiltrate the Red Mantis Assassin organization and then I became a Pathfinder.

** Venture-Lieutenant

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I would like some definitions to be clearly laid out please, as some of this is still unclear to me. Which would be nice if the editing team stayed with the same layout across all the books and entries.

So in some cases it looks like I can gain access via the access entry in the uncommon item:

IE Lastwall Sentry Access you must be from the Eye of Dread region.

Easy enough take the 0 Fame Home Region boon, I meet the access requirements and all feats under it are not listed as uncommon so I am good.

So lets move on to the Knights of Lastwall where the problem starts creeping in:

Knights of Lastwall entry sidebar P88 Lost Omens Character Guide:
Membership Requirements any of the following: refugee of Lastwall, previous membership in the Knights of Ozem, sponsorship by a knight in good standing and approval from two others

Ok so if I am reading the secondary initiation correct buying that boon for 2 fame takes care of the above. IE I am now a member of the Knights of Lastwall.

So here is where it becomes unclear, mainly because there is not an access entry for the individual items. The books says:
Knights of Lastwall Class Feats
The following class feats are available to Knights of Lastwall. Those with the champion trait are champion class feats. Those with both the champion and fighter traits are both champion class feats and fighter class feats; when you take one of these feats, it loses the trait that doesn’t apply to your class.

So does this paragraph and the above boon mean I have access now? Unlike the Lastwall Sentry where it spells out what I need to do with an access entry, these feats do not other than the above paragraph.

Lets take this problem a step further.
Knight Vigilant Archetype:
Prerequisites trained in Religion, any good alignment, member of the Knights of Lastwall of knight rank

Ok first there is a paragraph similar to the Feat one above so assuming the answer is yes I have access because of my Secondary Initiation Boon we run into another problem, what is my rank?

Do I need to buy another Secondary Initiation boon to get the Rank of Knight? Is my first one good enough?

In conclusion it would be nice if the OPF staff took a couple of these situations and put out concrete examples with the references to the text of the rules so we can model off those.

--Chris

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Chris Johnson wrote:

I would like some definitions to be clearly laid out please, as some of this is still unclear to me. Which would be nice if the editing team stayed with the same layout across all the books and entries.

So in some cases it looks like I can gain access via the access entry in the uncommon item:

IE Lastwall Sentry Access you must be from the Eye of Dread region.

Easy enough take the 0 Fame Home Region boon, I meet the access requirements and all feats under it are not listed as uncommon so I am good.

Correct.

Quote:


So lets move on to the Knights of Lastwall where the problem starts creeping in:

Knights of Lastwall entry sidebar P88 Lost Omens Character Guide:
Membership Requirements any of the following: refugee of Lastwall, previous membership in the Knights of Ozem, sponsorship by a knight in good standing and approval from two others

Ok so if I am reading the secondary initiation correct buying that boon for 2 fame takes care of the above. IE I am now a member of the Knights of Lastwall.

So here is where it becomes unclear, mainly because there is not an access entry for the individual items. The books says:
Knights of Lastwall Class Feats
The following class feats are available to Knights of Lastwall. Those with the champion trait are champion class feats. Those with both the champion and fighter traits are both champion class feats and fighter class feats; when you take one of these feats, it loses the trait that doesn’t apply to your class.

So does this paragraph and the above boon mean I have access now? Unlike the Lastwall Sentry where it spells out what I need to do with an access entry, these feats do not other than the above paragraph.

Yes, Secondary initiation takes care of the membership requirements and makes you a member, so you have access to all those feats/items.

Quote:


Lets take this problem a step further.
Knight Vigilant Archetype:
Prerequisites trained in Religion, any good alignment, member of the Knights of Lastwall of knight rank

Ok first there is a paragraph similar to the Feat one above so assuming the answer is yes I have access because of my Secondary Initiation Boon we run into another problem, what...

Yes, one secondary initiation takes care of all rank requirements.

** Venture-Lieutenant

Eric can you point out exactly where that is said within the guides or blog entries, I tend to agree with your assessment, but again that is my oppinion over concrete facts.

--Chris

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To see if I’ve got this right.

In order to gain access to Aldori Duelling Swords (And the ability to improve proficiency with them alongside your other weapons) you could do so through the Human Ancestry Feat Unconventional Weaponry.
This feat gives a character who is trained in martial weapons the ability to select an uncommon advanced weapon. You gain access to that weapon, and for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a martial weapon.
This seems to be all you need. It doesn’t seem to require you to be a native of Brevoy or the broken lands as it allows for selection even if it is “potentially from another ancestry or culture” so there is no need to use any boons to gain access.

If you wanted to take the Archetype Aldori Duelist you would first need to be trained in the Aldori Duelling Sword.
The only current way I can see you meeting that prerequisite is taking the feat above or the Fighter class feat Advanced Weapon Training.
You then need to be from the Broken Lands. This seems to be as straightforward as saying your character is from the Broken Lands as you are allowed to specify one region at character creation and you are considered to be from there in order to access uncommon options. You could also take the World Traveller boon and be considered as being from the Broken Lands in addition to the region specified at character creation.
Finally, as the Aldori Duelist is part of an organisation (In this case a sword school which requires you to make a swordpact) you also need to take the Secondary Initiation boon.

Is this correct?

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So what do you actually have to do to get a gnome swinging a katana in organized play?

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Chris Johnson wrote:

Eric can you point out exactly where that is said within the guides or blog entries, I tend to agree with your assessment, but again that is my oppinion over concrete facts.

--Chris

The link in my post there should cover all the secondary initiation related cover.

For the members of the organizations having access to their equipment/feats, I'm not sure why you think you need more than the paragraph in the books such as

LOCG page 91 wrote:


Knights of Lastwall Equipment
The following equipment is available to Knights of Lastwall.

Sure they probably should have said "Knight of Lastwall have access to the following equipment" to make it more clear. But I don't think its controversial.

And for the Home Region boon, what more are you looking for than:
http://www.organizedplayfoundation.org/encyclopedia/pathfinder-2-0-faction- boons/#Home_Region

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
So what do you actually have to do to get a gnome swinging a katana in organized play?

I don't think there's a way at present. We're still waiting on the blog post/ruling/book/whatever that details what weapons are common to what regions. At which time adopted ancestry (human) -> Unconventional Weaponry, can get you there.

Or you can play a particular scenario, gain access to the weapon, but lack proficiency.

** Venture-Lieutenant

Eric Nielsen wrote:
Chris Johnson wrote:

Eric can you point out exactly where that is said within the guides or blog entries, I tend to agree with your assessment, but again that is my oppinion over concrete facts.

--Chris

The link in my post there should cover all the secondary initiation related cover.

For the members of the organizations having access to their equipment/feats, I'm not sure why you think you need more than the paragraph in the books such as

LOCG page 91 wrote:


Knights of Lastwall Equipment
The following equipment is available to Knights of Lastwall.

Sure they probably should have said "Knight of Lastwall have access to the following equipment" to make it more clear. But I don't think its controversial.

And for the Home Region boon, what more are you looking for than:
http://www.organizedplayfoundation.org/encyclopedia/pathfinder-2-0-faction- boons/#Home_Region

You are right, I missed that you put a link in your post, my apologies and thanks. It still needs to be spelled out specifically in the players guide, vs. having to find an obscure reply within a forum thread. I still want specific examples spelled out too within the same players guide. This is one of the more important aspects of character advancement and as long as it is confusing, which it is, it is going to cause problems.

Also my complaint is that Paizo has done this differently in different books of the same line. Hence the need to spell out exactly what grants access in the guides.

To be more specific there are 3 ways uncommon access can be granted outside boon access and you have to look in different places for it:
1. Access via Feat, which is in the text of the feat. (Racial Weapon Feats for example)
2. Access via Access requirement, spelled out in the uncommon feature. (Access listing in Lastwall Sentry Archetype for example)
3. Access via Membership in organization, spelled out somewhere in the text outside of the uncommon feature. (Access to Knights of Lastwall feats for example)

This is an Editorial problem, but since Paizo has decided to do it 3 different ways (at least) OPF is going to have to clarify and do so within their players guide.

--Chris

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Helvellyn wrote:
Is this correct?

Not entirely.

Helvellyn wrote:
Finally, as the Aldori Duelist is part of an organisation (In this case a sword school which requires you to make a swordpact) you also need to take the Secondary Initiation boon.

No. The requirements are stated in the book.

LOWG pg. 35 wrote:

Prerequisites trained in Aldori dueling swords

Access You are from the Broken Lands region.

So you cannot access the Aldori Duelist archetype unless you are from the Broken Lands (Home Region boon--i.e. gained when you select a region at creation--or World Traveler boon) as you have stated.

It does not require an initiation or other RP requirement necessitating the Secondary Initiation boon.

Now, working backwards on the prerequisite of being trained in Aldori dueling swords:

Access to Aldori dueling swords requires Broken Lands home region or you are trained in all Martial weapons and you take the Unconventional Weaponry human feat.

Proficiency in the Aldori dueling sword can be gained by being trained in all Martial weapons and taking the Unconventional Weaponry human feat (it becomes a martial weapon for you and you are trained in all Martial weapons), being trained in all Martial weapons and taking Weapon Proficiency general feat (to gain proficiency in one specific Advanced weapon), or being trained in all Simple weapons and taking Weapon Proficiency general feat twice (first time to gain all Martial weapons and the second time to gain proficiency in one specific Advanced wepaon). You could be a fighter and wait until 6th level to take Advanced Weapon Training, but that's not required.

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Chris Johnson wrote:


You are right, I missed that you put a link in your post, my apologies and thanks. It still needs to be spelled out specifically in the players guide, vs. having to find an obscure reply within a forum thread. I still want specific examples spelled out too within the same players guide. This is one of the more important aspects of character advancement and as long as it is confusing, which it is, it is going to cause problems.

Also my complaint is that Paizo has done this differently in different books of the same line. Hence the need to spell out exactly what grants access in the guides.

To be more specific there are 3 ways uncommon access can be granted outside boon access and you have to look in different places for it:
1. Access via Feat, which is in the text of the feat. (Racial Weapon Feats for example)
2. Access via Access requirement, spelled out in the uncommon feature. (Access listing in Lastwall Sentry Archetype for example)
3. Access via Membership in organization, spelled out somewhere in the text...

Agreed, I think this blog post should have had a couple of more concrete examples.

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Eric Nielsen wrote:
We're still waiting on the blog post/ruling/book/whatever that details what weapons are common to what regions.

Michael discussed quite a bit about that HERE (in a series of replies).

FWIW, he liked my post below where I said "I am one of those GMs who has been extrapolating the Katana ruling to other Uncommon weapons as well".

So a Gnome adopted by Humans could gain access and proficiency with a Katana, but he agrees that it's a silly proposition.

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Michael Hallet wrote:

Not sure about others but I've been notoriously bad about remembering to check the boxes for scenario outcomes when I report an event, especially at a convention where I am rushing to get all the paperwork done at the end of a slot. It's nearly impossible to catch unless they are structured in a way going forward that at least one will always be checked. But it does create one more thing that convention organizers will have to track down if a GM forgets.

So now I worry that players are going to miss out on boons if they are tied to those checkboxes.

They could print a unique code that you input when you want to purchase the boon, or make it auto appear, but show up in an audit if someone had it crossed off their chronicle as an option.

Scarab Sages Pathfinder Society Developer

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Helvellyn wrote:


If you wanted to take the Archetype Aldori Duelist you would first need to be trained in the Aldori Duelling Sword.
The only current way I can see you meeting that prerequisite is taking the feat above or the Fighter class feat Advanced Weapon Training.
You then need to be from the Broken Lands. This seems to be as straightforward as saying your character is from the Broken Lands as you are allowed to specify one region at character creation and you are considered to be from there in order to access uncommon options. You could also take the World Traveller boon and be considered as being from the Broken Lands in addition to the region specified at character creation.
Finally, as the Aldori Duelist is part of an organisation (In this case a sword school which requires you to make a swordpact) you also need to take the Secondary Initiation boon.

Is this correct?

No. Proficiency/Access are not related to each other, at all. They are two separate buckets. Every single fighter in the game right now meets the prerequisite "trained in Aldori dueling swords" because they are automatically trained in advanced weapons and the Aldori dueling sword is an advanced weapon.

To take the Aldori Duelist archetype you need two things:
1) Trained proficiency in advanced weapons or Aldori dueling swords specifically

2) The zero-cost Home Region boon associated with one of the Broken Lands nations.

That's it, since Aldori Duelist does not require you to be a member of the organization like Lastwall Sentry (which would require Secondary Initiation since it requires you to be a member of the Knights of Lastwall) does.

5/5 ***

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:
Helvellyn wrote:


If you wanted to take the Archetype Aldori Duelist you would first need to be trained in the Aldori Duelling Sword.
The only current way I can see you meeting that prerequisite is taking the feat above or the Fighter class feat Advanced Weapon Training.
You then need to be from the Broken Lands. This seems to be as straightforward as saying your character is from the Broken Lands as you are allowed to specify one region at character creation and you are considered to be from there in order to access uncommon options. You could also take the World Traveller boon and be considered as being from the Broken Lands in addition to the region specified at character creation.
Finally, as the Aldori Duelist is part of an organisation (In this case a sword school which requires you to make a swordpact) you also need to take the Secondary Initiation boon.

Is this correct?

No. Proficiency/Access are not related to each other, at all. They are two separate buckets. Every single fighter in the game right now meets the prerequisite "trained in Aldori dueling swords" because they are automatically trained in advanced weapons and the Aldori dueling sword is an advanced weapon.

To take the Aldori Duelist archetype you need two things:
1) Trained proficiency in advanced weapons or Aldori dueling swords specifically

2) The zero-cost Home Region boon associated with one of the Broken Lands nations.

That's it, since Aldori Duelist does not require you to be a member of the organization like Lastwall Sentry (which would require Secondary Initiation since it requires you to be a member of the Knights of Lastwall) does.

Thanks for the clarification as I clearly haven't understood this. Is my first bit right about using Unconventional Weaponry or have I got that wrong as well?

Scarab Sages Pathfinder Society Developer

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Helvellyn wrote:

Thanks for the clarification as I clearly haven't understood this. Is my first bit right about using Unconventional Weaponry or have I got that wrong as well?

It is right, though with the caveat that it is not necessary to access Aldori Duelist since Aldori Duelist Dedication does not require that you already have access to Aldori dueling swords, specifically grants access to them, and increases your proficiency with them whenever you would increase your proficiency in any other weapon. So you could either retrain Unconventional Weaponry after taking the Aldori Duelist dedication, or you could just use e.g. a longsword until you take the feat at 2nd level and gain access that way, at which point the dedication will completely overwrite any benefit from Unconventional Weaponry.

2/5 5/5 **

You see how much I pay attention to the Fighter class. I didn't even realize Fighter had proficiency in Advanced Weapons.

So Advanced Weapon Training bumps your proficiency with group of Advanced Weapons to be the same as your Martial proficiency (i.e. better).

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Michael Sayre wrote:


2) The zero-cost Home Region boon associated with one of the Broken Lands nations.

I am now quite confused. I thought that you had previously stated that, at this moment in time, the Broken Lands nations do NOT necessarily consider the Aldori Dueling Sword as a common weapon. I thought that you'd said that Paizo was planning on putting out a list at some point dealing with what weapons were common in what regions but this list had not been put out.

So
1) Is this a change in position?
2) Is there now a list of what weapons are common in various nations? If there is, where is it?
3) If there is NOT such a list, who decides?

Scarab Sages Pathfinder Society Developer

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pauljathome wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:


2) The zero-cost Home Region boon associated with one of the Broken Lands nations.

I am now quite confused. I thought that you had previously stated that, at this moment in time, the Broken Lands nations do NOT necessarily consider the Aldori Dueling Sword as a common weapon. I thought that you'd said that Paizo was planning on putting out a list at some point dealing with what weapons were common in what regions but this list had not been put out.

So
1) Is this a change in position?
2) Is there now a list of what weapons are common in various nations? If there is, where is it?
3) If there is NOT such a list, who decides?

That quote is in reference to the Aldori Duelist archetype, which requires:

"Prerequisites trained in Aldori dueling swords
Access You are from the Broken Lands region."

Fighters are automatically trained in Aldori dueling swords, because fighters are trained in advanced weapons. The Home Region boon fulfills the access requirement "You are from the Broken Lands region". At this point, you qualify for the Aldori Duelist Dedication, which then gives you access to Aldori dueling swords (access and proficiency are not the same thing).

We're still working on assembling a list of what weapons are common in what regions.

2/5 5/5 **

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pauljathome wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:


2) The zero-cost Home Region boon associated with one of the Broken Lands nations.

I am now quite confused. I thought that you had previously stated that, at this moment in time, the Broken Lands nations do NOT necessarily consider the Aldori Dueling Sword as a common weapon. I thought that you'd said that Paizo was planning on putting out a list at some point dealing with what weapons were common in what regions but this list had not been put out.

So
1) Is this a change in position?
2) Is there now a list of what weapons are common in various nations? If there is, where is it?
3) If there is NOT such a list, who decides?

Character Options Blog: LOWG wrote:
Characters from the Broken Lands have access to the Aldori dueling sword (page 28).

Broken Lands grants access to the weapon. That's not technically the same as being Common in that region because I can't buy one while on a mission in Brevoy with my Zenj swashbuckler.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Michael Sayre wrote:


That quote is in reference to the Aldori Duelist archetype, which requires:
...
We're still working on assembling a list of what weapons are common in what regions.

Ah. Thanks,I misinterpreted you.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Michael, based on the earlier conversation I linked to, I was under the impression that a regional list was no longer being considered.

Society doesn't have a good track record of updating such lists, it increases your workload, and, I honestly don't see a need to have one.

Scarab Sages Pathfinder Society Developer

Nefreet wrote:

Michael, based on the earlier conversation I linked to, I was under the impression that a regional list was no longer being considered.

Society doesn't have a good track record of updating such lists, it increases your workload, and, I honestly don't see a need to have one.

This was my last comment in that thread and it's still in pretty much the same place.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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I would just figure that, if your primary request is for more time, cancelling the creation of a regional list that needs constant upkeep would fulfill that need.

I also, really, do not understand why a regional list must be created. Flavor? Is there something mechanical about saying X is available only in Y region that I'm missing? Isn't it the goal of Society NOT to create houserules of that big a scale?

I spend my life, both professionally and personally, trying to make things easier, not harder, and just assume everyone else desires that same outcome.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

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It is explained in the post prior to that one:

Quote:
Not just for any kind of game balance or immersion perspective, but also as a way of having some cultural nuance and sensitivity. It is probably not strictly true that katanas are common throughout all of Tian-Xia (or even that anyone from any part of Tian-Xia would have access to them), since katanas are part of just one real-world culture and Tian-Xia has many diverse cultures within it.

The goal is to not create reductive stereotypes, such as "they are all Asian, they all go around wielding Katanas and dressed like Samurai." But to take the time, figure out what best models the world they want to create, and not use racial or western stereotypes to build their world.

At the same time, just shrugging and saying "oh, well they are all cultural weapons somewhere" and thus making "Unconventional weaponry" the *only* way to access them, would lock a lot of character concepts out of ever accessing those weapons (or as Michael said, it "forces an entire rules subsection to become subservient to a human ancestry feat. Sorry Korakai! Your entire backstory is invalidated for org play unless we murder your parents and give you some human fosters.")

Envoy's Alliance *

Michael Sayre wrote:


So you could either retrain Unconventional Weaponry after taking the Aldori Duelist dedication, or you could just use e.g. a longsword until you take the feat at 2nd level and gain access that way, at which point the dedication will completely overwrite any benefit from Unconventional Weaponry.

But you couldn't pick aldori with unconventional weaponry in the first place no?

From the guide

Pathfinder Core Rulebook
Common:
Connections skill feat – not legal
Experienced Smuggler skill feat – Allows you to always Earn Income with the Underworld Lore with tasks of your level -1 (instead of the normal level -2).
Dwarves: Dwarves have a clan dagger (for free) as part of their starting gear. This change is retroactive.

Uncommon:
Wayfinder – all Pathfinders have access.
Katana: Unconventional Weaponry can be used to access the katana

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Jared Thaler wrote:

It is explained in the post prior to that one:

Quote:
Not just for any kind of game balance or immersion perspective, but also as a way of having some cultural nuance and sensitivity. It is probably not strictly true that katanas are common throughout all of Tian-Xia (or even that anyone from any part of Tian-Xia would have access to them), since katanas are part of just one real-world culture and Tian-Xia has many diverse cultures within it.

The goal is to not create reductive stereotypes, such as "they are all Asian, they all go around wielding Katanas and dressed like Samurai." But to take the time, figure out what best models the world they want to create, and not use racial or western stereotypes to build their world.

At the same time, just shrugging and saying "oh, well they are all cultural weapons somewhere" and thus making "Unconventional weaponry" the *only* way to access them, would lock a lot of character concepts out of ever accessing those weapons (or as Michael said, it "forces an entire rules subsection to become subservient to a human ancestry feat. Sorry Korakai! Your entire backstory is invalidated for org play unless we murder your parents and give you some human fosters.")

Umm. Creating a regional list does exactly that? It also creates a lot of arguing over regions that are left out, that maybe an obscure Pathfinder Tale had included, and just amounts to creative differences that I don't see as being helpful.

Leaving Unconventional Weaponry as it currently stands - simply granting access to any uncommon weapon - avoids that.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

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Nefreet wrote:
Leaving Unconventional Weaponry as it currently stands - simply granting access to any uncommon weapon - avoids that.

I think PFS also needs to add an option where there is some other easy way for other characters to add access. Nonhumans, people who were raised with the cultural weapon, etc.

Could be via ACP, could be via faction boons. It would be easiest to just add a generic option of some kind. While I sympathize with the desire to define the world more exactly I think that is going to take too long and will always significantly lag as new items are released

Lantern Lodge

How much interaction between cultures is there? With Patherfinders going all over the world, adventurers everywhere, magic traveling, and so on, how hard is it to come by items?

Items should be coming in and out of the Inner Sea at a frequency that if an original item can't be had, a reasonable copy of one shouldn't be that hard to find.

You may not be able to get an Aldori dueling sword made in Rostland by a family of smith who have done for hundreds of years, but the local sword smith can bang one out that close enough. Maybe some Rare items have to come from a specific area by a small group of makers, but anything uncommon shouldn't require a stack of boons and a DC 30 mental acrobatics check to come up with.

The amount of game material locked away from use has made me want to give up on all future PFS play. The effort just isn't worth the end results.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

pauljathome wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Leaving Unconventional Weaponry as it currently stands - simply granting access to any uncommon weapon - avoids that.
I think PFS also needs to add an option where there is some other easy way for other characters to add access. Nonhumans, people who were raised with the cultural weapon, etc.

Not PFS, because as I've said, and as Michael has said, they don't like doing things like that, but I believe Paizo will eventually release some sort of player option that will do the same thing.

To be clear, I agree access shouldn't be gated behind being adopted by humans. That was, ironically, also a problem in PF1 and Traits.

But what makes more sense? Committing the unforeseen future to maintaining a Blog for the sole purpose of clarifying one feat, or leaving it open as it is now and wait for Paizo to release something down the road?

If PFS wants to waste that time, I obviously can't stop them, but I can be vocal about how unwise it is.

Vigilant Seal 1/5

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Thanks for the awesome post that answers all the questions in one place. I love those things! And thank you Michael Sayre for answering a bunch of questions and making me want to create a fighter. :D

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