The Mwangi Expanse

Not having any good orc gods means that a good orc's religious practices are just going to be adopted from human cultures.

There are plenty of cultures on Golarion that are not human. But even if you mean an evil ancestry has to discover goodness from from another humanoid culture, that's not true either. Sarenrae is not and never was a human (even if that's how she is depicted). There's no reason an orc culture can't adopt a religion through epiphany just like many other cultures on Golarion (both good and evil) did.

(I also get the impression that people who play orcs/half-orcs want to play the monster--either to play to type or to disprove genetic determinism--and I'm OK with having an ancestry specifically to oblige that.)

It just feels weird to me to have a culture which is thousands of years old which has not developed religious traditions both good and evil specific to that culture.

It just feels weird to me to have a culture which is thousands of years old which has not developed religious traditions both good and evil specific to that culture.

That's totally fair - I guess I just feel that rather than an orc "pantheon," particularly in a place with such porous borders as the Mwangi Expanse, I'd expect to find that every group has adopted some of each other's gods. So maybe some new gods that clearly originated with the orcs (and are worshiped by some Mwangi groups) and some that the orcs worship and clearly are non-orc in origin.

It just feels weird to me to have a culture which is thousands of years old which has not developed religious traditions both good and evil specific to that culture.

They could have their own traditions and rituals, but Golarion is also a world where the existence of gods is objective fact and most of those gods have been around an incredibly long time and that kind of makes the waters murky in terms of outright brand new and different religions entirely, I think.

Sarenrae is one of the oldest gods in existence, basically one of the original major deities. She's as valid of an orc god as she is a human god and she dramatically predates both of those species. Even calling her a human deity feels disingenuous.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

It just feels weird to me to have a culture which is thousands of years old which has not developed religious traditions both good and evil specific to that culture.

That's totally fair - I guess I just feel that rather than an orc "pantheon," particularly in a place with such porous borders as the Mwangi Expanse, I'd expect to find that every group has adopted some of each other's gods. So maybe some new gods that clearly originated with the orcs (and are worshiped by some Mwangi groups) and some that the orcs worship and clearly are non-orc in origin.

I think I would like that, actually. It wouldn't make much sense for them to totally ignore the "major" deities.

I didn't even know there was that significant a presence of Orcs around the Mwangi. How cool. And yeah it would be cool if they were portrayed somewhat differently that than the archetypical Orc.

They've been mentioned before, but not much, and only briefly. I believe they're stated to be less aggressive than their cousins in Belkzen and often get along with the local humans. They're not seen as a threat in the same way as other orcs are. Bastards of Golarion, mentions Mwangi half-orcs being prized by many human tribes as strong heroes, and they will often arrange temporary marriages with orcs to produce them. That certainly implies some cooperation with the locals, and a lack of stigma. So they're been described before, but detail has been lacking. Getting a more complete treatment of them will be nice. It gives an alternate, and less nasty, orc culture. They'd be a great source of heroic orcs that don't have to go the Drizt route of being the unique rebels against their evil kin. Also a good source of half-orcs who don't have the unfortunate implications of rape that often goes with the territory.

Having only evil orc deities is a bit different from having only good elf deities; it goes back to my issue with the one "Good" orc tribe in Belkzen being devoted to Sarenrae, and Gorum being retconned to no longer accept Chaotic Good worshipers. Not having any good orc gods means that a good orc's religious practices are just going to be adopted from human cultures. It'd work well enough if Mwangi orcs have always shared a cultural heritage with their non-orc neighbors, but making it so they have to be "saved" by a human deity to be good comes with a whole host of problems.

Agreed. I'd like for there to be at least one good orc god, and several neutrals. Perhaps their worship has been largely stamped out in Belkzen but continues in secret, and openly in the Mwangi Expanse. And while I actually agree with the decision not to have CG clerics of Gorum, I can see the problem that none of the traditional orc gods allow good clerics. Having the only good orcs follow traditionally human religions does feel a bit problematic. It might be well intentioned, but brings the unfortunate implication that all goodness from orcs comes from outside, by making them less orcish. Although on the other hand, as was pointed out, Serenrae predates humans, orcs and the planet. And her status as the deity most directly involved in the defeat of Rovagug does seem fitting for good orcs who reject their kin's worship of Rovagug.

The goddess of the Sun does not strike me as a likely ancient traditional deity for creatures who had always lived underground.

The goddess of the Sun does not strike me as a likely ancient traditional deity for creatures who had always lived underground.

Especially considering her physical manifestation is the source of non-stop, agonizing pain and discomfort for the average orc, even if orcs are not natural evil I doubt 'light' and 'the sun' would have as positive connotations as they do in human society.

And honestly I'm thrilled for there to be more emphasis on non-evil orcs, I just wish they weren't so localized and confined to one specific geographic area.

And honestly I'm thrilled for there to be more emphasis on non-evil orcs, I just wish they weren't so localized and confined to one specific geographic area.

From the Broken Lands description, it did sound like Belkzen orcs might be getting some nuance to them as well.

There is a tribe in Belkzen that worships Sarenrae.

I feel the archetypical Evil Belkzen Orcs are now showed as an exception whereas they were often thought of as representative of the average Orcs in years past.

And even them did not blindly fall in line behind Tar-Baphon when he came calling.

The goddess of the Sun does not strike me as a likely ancient traditional deity for creatures who had always lived underground.

We know why Sarenrae was picked: because the tribe was "redeemed" from Rovagug's worship and Nocticula hadn't adopted her new persona yet.

And her status as the deity most directly involved in the defeat of Rovagug does seem fitting for good orcs who reject their kin's worship of Rovagug.

I actually really like this angle. What better way to thumb your nose at Rovagug than to celebrate the god that cast him down?

Considering that Orcs spent their previous existence underground, just coming out of a cave and seeing the sun for the first time must have been a religious experience for some orcs. It would be awesome in the classical sense.

Doktor Weasel wrote:

And her status as the deity most directly involved in the defeat of Rovagug does seem fitting for good orcs who reject their kin's worship of Rovagug.

I actually really like this angle. What better way to thumb your nose at Rovagug than to celebrate the god that cast him down?

Worship Asmodeus ?

Squiggit wrote:

Doktor Weasel wrote:

And her status as the deity most directly involved in the defeat of Rovagug does seem fitting for good orcs who reject their kin's worship of Rovagug.

I actually really like this angle. What better way to thumb your nose at Rovagug than to celebrate the god that cast him down?

Worship Asmodeus ?

Asmodeus didn't strike at Rovagug with a flaming scimitar.

I can see that part of the story appealing to even a fairly "traditional" orc who values martial prowess as a cardinal virtue.

The Raven Black wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Doktor Weasel wrote:

And her status as the deity most directly involved in the defeat of Rovagug does seem fitting for good orcs who reject their kin's worship of Rovagug.

I actually really like this angle. What better way to thumb your nose at Rovagug than to celebrate the god that cast him down?

Worship Asmodeus ?

Asmodeus didn't strike at Rovagug with a flaming scimitar.

I can see that part of the story appealing to even a fairly "traditional" orc who values martial prowess as a cardinal virtue.

Even the painfulness of the sun could feed into that. Respect for something so awesome that you can't even look at it without massive pain. So yeah, I'm actually starting to really like the idea of Seranrae as a deity for good orcs. It is keeping with the emphasis on strength and power. Why worship Rovagug, when Seranrae smacked him down? It's the traditional thing of the leader is the one who defeats the old leader.

It'd certainly be a minority faith. But I'm seeing more and more points in it's favor. There should still be some non-evil, natively orc deities too though.

^Agreed

I missed this until now!

I'm overjoyed by the hints that we'll get more about the Orcs of the Mwangi Expanse. Culturally, the Orcs of Belkzen are primarily Evil and that can't change quickly without weird retcons, but we know so little about the Mwangi Orcs (and the little we do know involves them being chill), that they serve as an excellent opportunity to showcase a more pleasant and friendly group of Orcs.

Which is what Paizo seems to be doing. And that's wonderful.

I have no objection to the rare Good Orcs from Belkzen worshiping Sarenrae, as the Goddess of Redemption and foe of Rovagug, that makes a lot of sense. I would likewise, however, expect the Orcs of Lake Ocata to have entirely different faiths bearing no relation to either of those Gods. After all, why would they care about either?

Orcs aside, the rest also sounds quite good (particularly presenting the area from the perspective of someone who lives there), and I'm very interested in the new nation replacing Sargava. That's cool.

Aenigma wrote:

Also, what happened to Pridon's Hearth, the newest colony of Sargava? Did the native people conquered this town too?

Liberated, and probably. Vidrian has the same frontiers as Sargava.

I ran Ire of the Storm last year; Pridon's Hearth is south of Sargava, and wasn't much of a colony. They had also freed all of their slaves, and depending on the PC's actions, possibly made peace with both the local Song'O Halflings and the Lizardfolk. Regardless, Pridon's Hearth was never under the administration of Sargava in the first place, and it didn't sound like the colony's only valuable export (Malaria-curing potatoes? Something like that) was common knowledge.

Mark Moreland wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Since both Cheliax and the Shackles are now enemies of Vidrian, the open question is whether they make any sort of common cause against that new nation.

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is an "enemy" of Vidrian. Cheliax lost Sargava long before Sargava became Vidrian, and the Shackles will just have to go back to getting money from the Vidrians the old-fashioned way—piracy. While they aren't necessarily allies, they don't have an oblique motivation to full-out conquer them either.

Conquer them -- no, it wouldn't be worth it.

Punish them -- oh yes, they have plenty of motivation to do that. The idea of Cheliax taking action against Sargava is actually mentioned in the "Continuing the Adventure" section of one of the "Hell's" adventure paths -- I think it was "Hell's Vengeance". I don't think they would particularly care that there has been a revolution there.

I think the part that strikes me as unlikely is the Shackles Pirates rolling over for Cheliax so soon after the Chelaxians tried to outright murder them with Devils. I can see them taking (very high) bribes to allow trade ships through, but nothing the size of an invasion force, because doing so would threaten the pirates' own sovereignty.

I think more likely threats to Vidrian would be wealthy Sargavans trying to cling to their power in the region, Bekyars and other hostile neighbors looking to invade while they're still weak, and various factions vying for control of the country. I'm thinking about setting my 2E campaign in the region, starting around the transition period, so the players can experience the chaos, trying to protect their friends during the transition, choose what part of the revolution they support, etc.

Waaiit a second. Is that magic warrior . . . Bonali Kwazeel?

Bonali?! Yay!