Definitely interesting. I like the art too. I'm also glad Paizo's not going the whole Games-Workshop/Wizards of the Coast route of literally nuking the entire setting and starting from scratch. Slight incremental change in these sorts of things I think is preferable to chucking everything in the trash bin and telling people who are upset 'you think you want that, but you don't'.
I particularly like the bit about non-evil goblinoids, and former enemies finding common ground. Also, what happened to Lastwall is strangely similar to the idea for a home campaign I had once, where agents of the Whispering Way engineered an eruption from Droskar's Crag that spread plague-tainted ash across all of Isger, killing nearly everything and reanimating them as shambling horrors. Though it was less about the horrors the living had to face, as many humanoids who were killed and raised retained their memories and free will. The players were going to be among the 'Twice-Born', and set adrift in a ruined world of perpetual twilight where even former loved ones wanted them destroyed, and people who had lost everything were left to pick up the pieces of a shattered society and try in vain to put them back together. At least now I have a canonical part of the setting to do that in, rather than having to blow up poor, tortured Isger.
The Raven Black wrote:
The goddess of the Sun does not strike me as a likely ancient traditional deity for creatures who had always lived underground.
Especially considering her physical manifestation is the source of non-stop, agonizing pain and discomfort for the average orc, even if orcs are not natural evil I doubt 'light' and 'the sun' would have as positive connotations as they do in human society.
And honestly I'm thrilled for there to be more emphasis on non-evil orcs, I just wish they weren't so localized and confined to one specific geographic area.
Diego Valdez wrote:
Removed some posts and the replies to them. Many of the posts in this thread have gone way off topic. Additionally this is not the thread to discuss real world politics (and in fact the Paizo.com forums have a standing moratorium on political threads).
I would like to apologize. I did not realize when I originally spoke out that it would lead to such inflammatory back-and-forths. At certain points I lost my cool, and I am sorry.
To me, Sargava seemed more like the 'real' Cheliax, or at least all that was left of it, then that abomination that Thrune's cobbled together out of oppression, fear, and blind arrogance. Not everything equated with Chelish ideals were negative. Organization and perseverance can be used for good, or at least, uh, less bad. It's joked in at least in one book that while other peoples form angry mobs, Cheliaxians organize a disapproving que. Most of Cheliax's 'imperalism phase' was during the Ever-War, under the very aptly named King Haliad the Mad, so I don't necessarily think racism was central to their culture.
As for the 'Old Guard' of Sargava, old is the operative word. Lady Madrona Daugastana controls pretty much everything in Eleder, and probably by extension, Sargava, but she's also described as the oldest living colonial. She's one nasty piece of work, like a leathery Marie Antoinette wrapped in a burnt piece of bacon that vaguely resembles Joseph Stalin. I'm guessing that the 'Old Guard dying out' would just be her passing on when sheer spite can no longer stave off the cold embrace of the grave, and then everyone, Chelish and Mwangi alike, can heave a sigh of collective relief and chuck the whole colonial oppression thing in the dust bin of history now that all of Sargava is out of her wrinkly, varicosed grip.
Well, for a change of topics, I note the “Magic Warrior” archetype. Do we think this will replace Magus class, or at least push back the need for one for several books?
Well, in 1e, the magic warriors were specialized wizards who wore stylized animal masks in honour of the Ten Magic Warriors of Old Mage Jatembe. They weren't really martial based, but more wizards who blended arcane, druidic, and goodly magic, with a special focus on utilizing the spell mastery feat. Making them just mwangi magi would get rid of one of the more unique and interesting kinds of character archetypes. That and the fact the magic warrior art in the blog post isn't wearing s mask makes me sad. :(
zimmerwald1915, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue here. In this hypothetical fantasy world, what are you saying should be the ideal outcome? One point you're saying all those in power should be killed, the next you're saying the people in power shouldn't be challenged. What point are you trying to make? Or are you just feeling argumentative and spoiling for a fight of some kind?
Agreed. While still wearing their full plate. Being covered in chum with shackled ankles would also be a bold fashion choice.
Darth Game Master wrote:
Yeah, I personally don't think that inspiration from industrial-era European imperialism was a good idea, especially since several real world countries are still dealing with the effects of that. It also raises the question of why the native people weren't able to resist more easily, as there'd be little (if any) difference between how much magic the Chelaxians and Vidrians? had. I do think something like Phoenician-style colony would have made for a more interesting Sargava. But not much point lamenting that now, seeing that they've already fixed it.
All depending on context, which admittedly is unknown to all of us at the moment, 'fixed' isn't exactly the word I'd use, depending on what happens to the average Sargavan. 'Different' is what I'd say. I thought it wouldn't have needed to be said that genocide based solely on race is bad. Even a hand-wavey 'we kicked out all the white people and things are better now' seems kinda tone-deaf, but I suppose my opinion is somewhat biased.
I cannot favourite this post enough. Thank you.
Darth Game Master wrote:
I really never got the feeling that Utilinus was the source of all the bigotry. More that it was the entrenched nobility like the aformentioned Lady Madrona, and that the Baron had far too much on his plate to deal with every issue, as they were barely scraping by. In fact, there's a very 'let's all work together because this is our home' quote from him specifically in 'Sargava, the Lost Colony'. And there's plenty of reasons for him no longer being an autocrat. He could step down for various reasons, become a member of the new governing council, or the more obvious of him dying in the Siege of Eleder.
And yeah, I wasn't suggesting Paizo try and do an AP about it. No matter how they could write it, it would make someone angry. This was more for a home game of mine. I understand there's a lot of sensitive topics, I'm just trying to rationalize the whole decolonization campaign in a way that doesn't leave me with a sour taste in my mouth. Deposing the obvious bigots and racists in power is something I can absolutely get behind, but calling leaving thousands of innocents dead/homeless/destitute and persecuted a 'righteous and justified revolution' doesn't sit well with me. Call me a racist if you want, but I don't think punishing everyone of a group for the actions of only a portion is fair.
EDIT: This is the quote I was talking about. That part about 'servants' could've been left out, but I think overall the sentiment is very positive.
Baron Utilinus wrote:
Darth Game Master wrote:
It was probably left purposely vague so individual GMs should decide, but I think that exiling the noble class and keeping the rest of the Chelaxians would make sense. Though of course, having the issue of what to do with the colonists stay unresolved could open up a chance for interesting political conflict...
It actually gives me an interesting idea for a homebrew campaign of how the revolution plays out. I'll leave it in a spoiler tag for people who are interested. Either way, I am glad that under-utilized parts of the setting are getting more love, especially in ways that help broaden perspectives. My previous comments were meant only to address a general feeling I'd gotten, and though that feeling hasn't really been addressed in the way I would've liked, I am still glad that overall Paizo is making an effort to be more inclusive. As a society, our primary goal should be the advancement of all peoples, at the expense of none.
Campaign Idea: Hearts of Darkness:
Basically the current Custodian of Sargava, Baron Utilinus, hopes to introduce sweeping reforms intended to modernize the country, end persecution, and help bring about racial parity. Unfortunately, this does not sit well with colonial hardliners like Lady Madrona Daugustana, and she and a cabal of wealthy, bigoted nobles arrange a coup to depose the Baron, while being unknowingly supported by the Priests of Walkena from nearby Mzali in an attempt to weaken Sargava from within. The PCs must mount a resistance against the new regime, who've been performing brutal pogroms of racial violence and segregation, hopefully free Baron Utilinus and form an alliance of colonials and native tribespeople to stop Walkena's fanatics before they carve a path of bloodshed across Sargava to Eleder, where the streets would be paved with the heads of innocents, mwangi and chelish alike.