The Mwangi Expanse

So did Gorilla King fail to become Nascent Demon Lord or die after he became one?

More opportunities for Good and non-evil orcs, their strength and hardiness makes them ideal for inhabiting hostile environments and demon haunted areas.

Makes me want to work on my Shackled City/Second Darkness/Serpent's Skull mash up campaign...

And now for something completely different: Vidrian has a flag. And I can't help but notice that it continues the pattern of revolutionary countries using blue and/or (usually...

Well of course it does. No flag, no country, right?

On a different tangent, I second the general sense of "Wait, WHAT?!" on the death of the Gorilla King. Was this announced somewhere else and I missed it, or was that an intentional Wham Line in this blog?

Thomas Seitz wrote:

So I don't suppose you could shed some like on the demise of poor Ruthazek and the rest of the demon haunted Usaro, Mike Seifter?

That depends. How familiar are you with all of the details of Serpent's Skull, including the extras? Though I'm not a Mike. Paizo Mike is very cool but a different person.

SsS is one of my favorite APs, Mr. Mark.

Well, was the extra used in the setting advancement? Did Ruthazek become a nascent demon lord? I hope that's the case. I really liked the Charau-ka and their Gorilla King. I had hoped for a playable version of the Charau-ka for a long time by now.

My favourite region!! Give some love to the jungle, AWESOME! :D

(who might be inclined to let them pass when they realize what the Chelish are up to).

While I doubt that Cheliax could totally conquer Vidrian, they could claim victory if they are able to seize even a single seaport such as Port Freedom or Crown's End.

After the events of Skulls & Shackles and with Tess as the Hurricane Queen I highly doubt the Shackles would be okay with allowing Cheliax to float a fleet through, much less gain a foothold right next to them.

For orcs specifically, I believe the idea that they are inherently evil is from Tolkien, where orcs are engineered to be evil descendants of elves. (Someone may have done the same earlier, but Tolkien is the popular source of it.)

Just for the record, Tolkien didn't handwave the evil of Orcs, he just didn't find space to address it.

One of his editorial regrets was not expanding on the motivations of Orcs.

The problem in relying on a simple statement of "Usually Evil" is that it needs to be backed up by evidence that the setting follows that breakdown. I never got the sense that in Lost Omens 1e that non-Evil orcs were anything other than vanishingly rare. Same for a lot of the other "Usually Evil" races. Just the fact that only half-orcs are a core PC race when you have both half-elves and elves feels telling.

I like the art.

I'm glad that giving a more sensitive and nuanced treatment to the Mwangi Expanse was one of the explicit design goals for the setting. Excited to see what you've done with it!

Really glad to see Paizo is elaborating more on the Mwangi, since most of the previous stuff has been very vague and purely from an outside (and often colonialistish) perspective. A few thoughts:
1. Mzali is so pretty aaaaaaaaa
2. I think its highly unlikely that Cheliax could conquer Vidrian, even if we assume that Vidrian is initially very weak, (which there's no guarantee that it is) given the events of Skull and Shackles I imagine that Cheliax's navy is severely weakened and the Shackles with its new Hurricane Queen is very hostile to them.
3. As Paizo elaborates more on Garund, I'm hoping to see more nations which parallel real African civilizations, perhaps in the 3/4ths of the continent that are not in the Inner Sea region map. For instance, a large trade-based empire in a savanna or sahel region based on Wagadu/Mali/Songhai.

David knott 242 wrote:

(who might be inclined to let them pass when they realize what the Chelish are up to).

While I doubt that Cheliax could totally conquer Vidrian, they could claim victory if they are able to seize even a single seaport such as Port Freedom or Crown's End.

After the events of Skulls & Shackles and with Tess as the Hurricane Queen I highly doubt the Shackles would be okay with allowing Cheliax to float a fleet through, much less gain a foothold right next to them.

No, my second plan (sacking a port city with their help and sharing the loot) would be more likely to work.

The key point would be whether Tess would be more hostile to Cheliax for their actions in this AP or to Vidrian for their more recent refusal to pay her tribute. Since both Cheliax and the Shackles are now enemies of Vidrian, the open question is whether they make any sort of common cause against that new nation.

Since both Cheliax and the Shackles are now enemies of Vidrian, the open question is whether they make any sort of common cause against that new nation.

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is an "enemy" of Vidrian. Cheliax lost Sargava long before Sargava became Vidrian, and the Shackles will just have to go back to getting money from the Vidrians the old-fashioned way—piracy. While they aren't necessarily allies, they don't have an oblique motivation to full-out conquer them either.

Really glad to see Paizo is elaborating more on the Mwangi, since most of the previous stuff has been very vague and purely from an outside (and often colonialistish) perspective. A few thoughts:

1. Mzali is so pretty aaaaaaaaa
2. I think its highly unlikely that Cheliax could conquer Vidrian, even if we assume that Vidrian is initially very weak, (which there's no guarantee that it is) given the events of Skull and Shackles I imagine that Cheliax's navy is severely weakened and the Shackles with its new Hurricane Queen is very hostile to them.
3. As Paizo elaborates more on Garund, I'm hoping to see more nations which parallel real African civilizations, perhaps in the 3/4ths of the continent that are not in the Inner Sea region map. For instance, a large trade-based empire in a savanna or sahel region based on Wagadu/Mali/Songhai.

100% yes. All of those, and analogues to the Swahili Coast city-states, the Kanem-Bornu Empire, Great Zimbabwe, the empire of Kongo, Benin, the Mutapa Empire, Aksum, the Ashanti Empire, etc would be great to have. Nubian and Amazigh/Berber inspired nations would be cool too, though that might be tricky with not-North Africa already covered.

David knott 242 wrote:

Since both Cheliax and the Shackles are now enemies of Vidrian, the open question is whether they make any sort of common cause against that new nation.

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is an "enemy" of Vidrian. Cheliax lost Sargava long before Sargava became Vidrian, and the Shackles will just have to go back to getting money from the Vidrians the old-fashioned way—piracy. While they aren't necessarily allies, they don't have an oblique motivation to full-out conquer them either.

Conquer them -- no, it wouldn't be worth it.

Punish them -- oh yes, they have plenty of motivation to do that. The idea of Cheliax taking action against Sargava is actually mentioned in the "Continuing the Adventure" section of one of the "Hell's" adventure paths -- I think it was "Hell's Vengeance". I don't think they would particularly care that there has been a revolution there.

100% yes. All of those, and analogues to the Swahili Coast city-states, the Kanem-Bornu Empire, Great Zimbabwe, the empire of Kongo, Benin, the Mutapa Empire, Aksum, the Ashanti Empire, etc would be great to have. Nubian and Amazigh/Berber inspired nations would be cool too, though that might be tricky with not-North Africa already covered.

The analogue to Axum's geographical location, unfortunately, is occupied by Geb. It could be further south, of course, but Casmaron starts getting prohibitively far away.

Darth Game Master wrote:

100% yes. All of those, and analogues to the Swahili Coast city-states, the Kanem-Bornu Empire, Great Zimbabwe, the empire of Kongo, Benin, the Mutapa Empire, Aksum, the Ashanti Empire, etc would be great to have. Nubian and Amazigh/Berber inspired nations would be cool too, though that might be tricky with not-North Africa already covered.

The analogue to Axum's geographical location, unfortunately, is occupied by Geb. It could be further south, of course, but Casmaron starts getting prohibitively far away.

IMO they don't have to correspond to the exact location, since there is quite a bit of geographical difference between Garund and Africa (The Sahara doesn't have mountains or rainforest immediately to the south, for instance)

Mark Moreland wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Since both Cheliax and the Shackles are now enemies of Vidrian, the open question is whether they make any sort of common cause against that new nation.

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is an "enemy" of Vidrian. Cheliax lost Sargava long before Sargava became Vidrian, and the Shackles will just have to go back to getting money from the Vidrians the old-fashioned way—piracy. While they aren't necessarily allies, they don't have an oblique motivation to full-out conquer them either.

Conquer them -- no, it wouldn't be worth it.

Punish them -- oh yes, they have plenty of motivation to do that. The idea of Cheliax taking action against Sargava is actually mentioned in the "Continuing the Adventure" section of one of the "Hell's" adventure paths -- I think it was "Hell's Vengeance". I don't think they would particularly care that there has been a revolution there.

I would argue that while both the Shackles and Cheliax certainly have a motive to raid Vidrian on a large organized scale, I think they both hate each other too much to actually ally together to do it. And I don't think either could do it on a large scale, with the Shackles being very loosley organized and Cheliax being far away and having much of its navy destroyed as of Skull & Shackles.

The Gorilla King is dead?! :(

I'm running Serpent's Skull at the moment, just getting started on book 2. I guess I'll just need to ensure my players understand that this is now set several years prior to this book, when Sargava/Eleder was still under colonial control and the Charau'Ka still ruled in Usaro.

As long as the year is not 4719, you don’t have to worry about it

I would argue that while both the Shackles and Cheliax certainly have a motive to raid Vidrian on a large organized scale, I think they both hate each other too much to actually ally together to do it. And I don't think either could do it on a large scale, with the Shackles being very loosley organized and Cheliax being far away and having much of its navy destroyed as of Skull & Shackles.

Cheliax lost 40-odd ships in Skull and Shackles. If that was "much of its navy," it was never a naval power to begin with - and since it has been consistently been portrayed as a strong naval power, we can safely say that they did not lose a great part of their fleet. Moreover, that was eight years ago. More than enough time to have rebuilt, and then some, in the Age of Sail.

And neither power has ever demonstrated a problem allying with other powers due to differing principles. Cheliax allied with Andoren against goblinoid nationalism, for instance. And of course the Free Captains are motivated only by profit and self-preservation. Offer them a bug enough bribe, and they'll do anything that's not obviously suicidal. This is entirely true to life. Principles don't mean very much in international politics.

I'm not sure what the lizardfolk are doing to the poor human. Are they raiding her?

I'm not sure what the lizardfolk are doing to the poor human. Are they raiding her?

They're having her examine markings on the ground. Glyphs or tracks, probably.

. . . You were being facetious, weren't you?

Haha, of course I was kidding. But that art also looked like the lizardfolk are harassing her, so I cannot help but write that post anyway.

I mean I wouldn’t call the Goblinblood War, Cheliax and Andoren working together.

I’d call it Andoren, Druma and the Hell Knights working to pick up the Thrune’s slack.

Also Cheliax lost ships to the Rahadoumi and the Andorens much more recently than what happened in Skull and Shackles.

Their grip is tenuous at home I doubt Abrogail and her toadies are focusing on a failed colony that’s been giving that little other than tentative trade much thought.

It is stated that the pirates in the Shackles are raiding the waters near Vidrian, but I really doubt after the World Fic we got referring to the High Seas that many of the Free Captains are up to working with Cheliax. Hell one of the Free Captains I’m very sure would go out of his way to f%+~ them over at any chance he got.

South of the Sodden Lands, the former nation of Sargava has undergone incredible change in the last few years. A revolution mounted by the nation's native population overthrew the Chelish colonial government that had ruled for centuries, establishing the new land of Vidrian in Sargava's place.

I've been waiting to see this.

... the Mwangi Expanse no longer be described from an outsider's perspective...

Paizo seems to be making a conscious effort to tone down the colonialist viewpoint and the "Darkest Africa" elements of the Expanse, which always kind of ruined the fun of the region for me.

Thats been my experience as well. I am also excited to see this effort.

As Paizo elaborates more on Garund, I'm hoping to see more nations which parallel real African civilizations, perhaps in the 3/4ths of the continent that are not in the Inner Sea region map. For instance, a large trade-based empire in a savanna or sahel region based on Wagadu/Mali/Songhai.

Very much this. I always looks for ways to represent specific cultures with my Garundi/Mwangi characters.

I want to see a prosperous path for Vidrian, after playing Serpents Skull and numerous scenarios in/around Sargava, I'm happy to see a change for the region.

What would Cheliax gain from attacking Vidrian that would make it worth the expenditure ? If a significant part of its navy is far from its shores, will other powers try to attack Cheliax ? Is it worth the risk ?

And how much can you trust pirates anyway ?

For the pirates, how much can they trust the slaves of Hell ?

Also if Cheliax launches such an attack and some foreign power wants to take advantage of this, what prevents said power from paying the pirates to destroy or steal Cheliax's ships ?

I guess this is why the king of France sent ships and soldiers to the help of the American revolutionaries who were fighting the armies of the king of England.

Thomas Seitz wrote:

So I don't suppose you could shed some like on the demise of poor Ruthazek and the rest of the demon haunted Usaro, Mike Seifter?

That depends. How familiar are you with all of the details of Serpent's Skull, including the extras? Though I'm not a Mike. Paizo Mike is very cool but a different person.

:D

Thanks Mark!

If the colonial government was overthrown by the natives, what happened to the Order of the Coil that established their headquarters near Eleder? The order is very hostile to the native people and seeks to wipe out all evidence of Sargava's native cultures. Do they still live in Vidrian?

Also, what happened to Pridon's Hearth, the newest colony of Sargava? Did the native people conquered this town too?

Do they still live in Vidrian?

I'ma say no.

Also, what happened to Pridon's Hearth, the newest colony of Sargava? Did the native people conquered this town too?

Liberated, and probably. Vidrian has the same frontiers as Sargava.

I'd imagine the Order of the Coil went the way of Louis XVI if I will be perfectly honest.

And I'd say they deserved it.

Love the art.

Also the 2 Mualijae portrayed are very cool - I particularly like that they seem to have wide noses and full lips, like many Black people - elves are always drawn with very thin, white features, because they must be the epitome of grace and beauty and that obviously can't include PoC (/sarcasm), so I really appreciate this artistic choice.

Fan of Garundi orcs here - mainly because the Avistani ones in Belkzen correspond to the trope of the evil savage, which I despise. Hoping all orcs in the setting become more varied in alignment and culture and we avoid depicting whole ethnicities of them as almost uniformly evil, going forward, Rovagug or not.

Exciting backgrounds, love the Magic Warriors, looking forward for the Magaambyan arcanist archetype too further on.

And the effort in writing setting details without a colonialist bias is very very much appreciated as well.

Two thumbs up, Paizo. Two thumbs up.

Good stuff. I've noticed the trend towards nuance for traditional monster ancestries in other things for PF2, and a moving a bit back from human-centrism and it certainly looks like it's a trend that's continued here. The mention of lizardfolk living and working with the human refugees from Lirgen is very cool, and helps explain their upcoming status as a PC ancestry. The artwork is cool too, I love the fins on their heads. In reference to the above question: I interpret that picture as showing the cooperation, I think the woman is an astrologer (note the telescope) who the lizardfolk are consulting about some ancient carvings they found (and more jokingly, it looks like the second from the left is checking her out and his friend is trying to encourage him to ask her out "Come on dude, ask her to go stargazing. You know she likes stars, she's an astrologer.") It also sounds like we'll be getting more detail on the Mwangi orcs. We'd heard that they're less aggressive and get along better with their neighbors than the Belkzen orcs, so getting fleshed out will also help with more nuance and more hooks for orc PC backgrounds without having to be a unique case. I also agree with Roswynn on the portrayal of the elves. Black elves with actual black features is a welcome change. Overall, it shows that there is more care going into treatment of the area and a real effort to remedy some problematic past material.

The revolution in Sargava and death of he Gorilla King are also both interesting develpoments, which as far as I know happened "off camera," and not in an AP. Very curious to hear about what happened with the Gorilla King.

I feel like there was a Pathfinder Society adventure at some point that dealt with the Gorilla King, but I have never actually played in PFS so I don't know for sure

I feel like there was a Pathfinder Society adventure at some point that dealt with the Gorilla King, but I have never actually played in PFS so I don't know for sure

Yeah, I've never done PFS either, and do get the impression that some of the setting movement that I'm unfamiliar with does come from PFS scenarios. But I know a lot of PFS players do post here, so I'd have expected one of them to chime in and say it was a PFS thing.

Darth Game Master wrote:

I feel like there was a Pathfinder Society adventure at some point that dealt with the Gorilla King, but I have never actually played in PFS so I don't know for sure

Yeah, I've never done PFS either, and do get the impression that some of the setting movement that I'm unfamiliar with does come from PFS scenarios. But I know a lot of PFS players do post here, so I'd have expected one of them to chime in and say it was a PFS thing.

James Jacobs addressed the Gorilla King question in his thread.

I...I’ve read that Adventure Path and went back to check, the Gorilla king definitely shows up in that in the Fourth part, but it never actually states that he dies he’ll you don’t even get into a fight with him. Unless I missed/forgot something.

I mean the writing itself holds that a fight is possible but it seems to be written in a way that makes it appear the players should try and avoid a fight. Guess Paizo decided that things went poorly in canon.

Doktor Weasel wrote:

Darth Game Master wrote:

I feel like there was a Pathfinder Society adventure at some point that dealt with the Gorilla King, but I have never actually played in PFS so I don't know for sure

Yeah, I've never done PFS either, and do get the impression that some of the setting movement that I'm unfamiliar with does come from PFS scenarios. But I know a lot of PFS players do post here, so I'd have expected one of them to chime in and say it was a PFS thing.

James Jacobs addressed the Gorilla King question in his thread.

Thanks Joana, that clarifies everything. Didn't know it happened in Serpent's Skull!

I...I’ve read that Adventure Path and went back to check, the Gorilla king definitely shows up in that in the Fourth part, but it never actually states that he dies he’ll you don’t even get into a fight with him. Unless I missed/forgot something.

I mean the writing itself holds that a fight is possible but it seems to be written in a way that makes it appear the players should try and avoid a fight. Guess Paizo decided that things went poorly in canon.

Check the final book and continue the campaign section

(it wouldn't be first time they canonized continue the campaign section articles, Lord of Runes mentioned the necromancer taiga giant from shattered star that collected 2 out of 3 books)

If the canon plot was anything like how my group did things, Pridon's Hearth didn't take much liberating...

"We're done with this colonialist crap."
"Oh. Good!"

I'd like to think canon result for Pridon's Hearth would involve working together with local lizardfolk populace, at least with emphasis on lizardfolks in general in 2e

(BTW, what was name of that ancient lost lizardfolk city rediscovered in one of pathfinder tales books?)

If the canon plot was anything like how my group did things, Pridon's Hearth didn't take much liberating...

"We're done with this colonialist crap."
"Oh. Good!"

Yeah, decolonization doesn't work that way.

It does if you kill every colonizer.

It does if you kill every colonizer.

That is something like the opposite of what Cole Deschain described, which was the colonizers simply giving up on colonialism and things working themselves out neatly thereafter. This is not a thing that happens.

Not how I read it.

This is a fantasy game, random good things can happen.

This is a fantasy game, random good things can happen.

YMMV on whether colonizers "seeing the light," as it were, and being allowed to keep their homes and other ill-gotten property as a reward is in fact a good thing. TOZ may have the right idea in wanting a bloody purge of a decolonization program.

I was more inferring them leaving or working to make up for what they did rather than "okay now that I'm ahead we're even".

I was more inferring them leaving

To where? Another part of the country? That doesn't actually amount to decolonization. They couldn't leave for Cheliax, they're traitors for having lived in independent Sargava at all, and liable to execution.

or working to make up for what they did

Setting aside that no colonizer has ever voluntarily agreed to such a thing, reparation is impossible outside of a regime of expropriation and forced ex-colonizer labor. In which case you might as well just expropriate and execute and have a regime of free native labor thereafter. Would probably be better for the economic development of the country.