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Bringing Out the Big Guns in Starfinder

Friday, June 16, 2017

As a science fantasy game, Starfinder has a wide range of high-tech weapons. Cryo guns, plasma weapons, lasers, full automatic projectile weapons, grenades, and many more categories of high-tech weapons cram the equipment chapter, ready for players to select what they need to stay alive in the adventures to come. But as soon as you mention that lasers are an option, and that Starfinder is supposed to maintain fair backward compatibility with the monsters of Pathfinder, players wonder how a goblin is supposed to be any kind of threat to PCs armed with advanced ranged weaponry. After all, realistically, a laser has to do more damage than a short sword, right.

Well, in a word, no.

Where realism impinges on making a fun and robust game, we're more than happy to deviate from realism—but in this case, it's not really necessary. Modern real-world laser pointers are lasers, for example, and do no damage to speak of when fired at your hand. And while it may seem unrealistic for laser pistols and plasma rifles to do low enough damage that you can be shot 4 or 5 times before you're in serious risk of death, that logic also applies to archaic weapons. It's not hard to make a 1st-level barbarian in Pathfinder who can easily survive four blows from a short sword and still be conscious. Certainly most people would agree that "realistically," being stabbed four times with 18 inches of sharpened steel isn't going to leave anyone in the condition where they can just walk away.

So, since we know lasers (and, by extension, most other energy weapons) can exist at a level where they do little to no damage, we can go ahead and make low-powered versions appropriate for the threats and foes low-level characters are most likely to encounter, letting your character start the game with that laser pistol they've been coveting.

But of course it wouldn't be any fun to restrict characters to such low-powered options forever.

Starfinder assumes there is almost always a better version of any weapon you can imagine—the trick is convincing people to sell it to you (and having the credits to afford it). In many cases the most advanced of these weapons don't make sense for rank-and-file troops. After all, why would an army buy a single avalanche-class zero rifle, when it can buy forty hailstorm-class zero rifles for the same amount of money? Sure, the avalanche-class does three times as much damage. But if you have an army to equip, it's better to have forty guns doing 2d8 damage than one gun doing 7d8 damage.

Of course there are exceptions to that thinking, including elite forces, commandos, assassins, snipers... and player characters.

As characters advance, they'll have the money, and connections, to buy more and more powerful versions of their early weapons. To keep this process simple, every piece of equipment in the game has an item level. That level has no effect on who can use the equipment—if a 2nd-level soldier gets hold of an 18th-level banshee sonic rifle, there's no reason he can't use it to full effect—just as a 2nd-level fighter could use a +5 flaming keen vicious bastard sword in Pathfinder. But by giving every piece of equipment an item level, we can tie numerous rules—including hardness, Hit Points, save DCs, and item creation rules, to name just a few—to a single mechanic. Item level is also a useful baseline to help determine what gear a character has the licenses, connections, and trust to buy. While circumstances and GM fiat can make any adjustment desired, in general a player character in a major settlement is free to buy any gear with an item level up to his character level +2. This gives characters freedom to decide if they are going to focus on just a few pieces of key gear, or do their best to have a variety of slightly less-effective options available, without a GM having to spend a lot of time checking tables and making availability rolls.

In general, there's no need to upgrade your weaponry at every level (though you certainly could if that was exciting for you), but over the course of a character's career they are likely to buy better, more dangerous, more powerful versions of their weaponry. The azimuth laser pistol is 1st level, and does 1d4 damage with an 80 ft. range increment and the ability to set things on fire with critical hits. The next lowest level laser pistol presented in the Core Rulebook is the corona model at 6th level, which does 2d4 damage. Of course, a player might run into a number of other weapon options along the way, ranging from the static arc pistol at 2nd level to the thunderstrike sonic pistol at 4th level or the frostbite-class zero pistol at 5th level.

Of course, for this system to work, feats and class features can't be tied to a specific model or level of a specific weapon. Instead, everything is geared to work with all the weapons for a specific proficiency, or all the weapons of the same category. Weapon Focus, for example, can be applied to all small arms, or all longarms, and so on. The soldier's gear boosts tend to work with categories of weapons, such as laser accuracy applying to all lasers, or plasma immolation working with all plasma weapons.

And that's not even talking about magic weapons! The Starfinder Core Rulebook has several pages of weapon fusions, which are special magic abilities that can be added to a weapon to gain a bonus in specific circumstances, or grant new combat options. For example, the anchoring fusion allows a weapon to immobilize a foe on a critical hit, while the holy fusion allows a weapon to bypass DR/good and ignore all energy resistance of evil dragons, evil outsiders, and evil undead. Fusion can also be placed in fusion seals, special weapon augmentations that can be moved from weapon to weapon if you decide to change your primary attack preference.

Nor does all of a character's increase in damage come from buying bigger guns and more powerful melee weapons. At 3rd level, every character class grants specialization with all the standard weapons the class gives proficiency with. This allows the character to add their level to damage dealt (or to add half their level in the case of small arms or operative melee weapons, the latter of which have the special property that anyone can use their Dexterity rather than Strength to determine their attack bonus). And of course class features, feats, and spells can grant further bonuses, depending on the choices a player makes while building their character.

All of this is tied to our rebalancing of combat math to make the game faster and simpler, while keeping weapon choice important and keeping the importance of treasure acquisition as a feature of the game. It also gives us flexibility when working in the weapon creation design space. The various weapon categories mean that characters with no access to magic abilities can still pick up weapons that do various forms of energy damage; create cones, lines, or explosions; or even stagger, blind, stun, or ignite foes. A soldier might decide their primary fighting style is to use a big two-handed melee weapon, but still carry a few grenades and a flamethrower for situations where they need to affect multiple targets in an area, or just deal a different damage type. It also removes the need to constantly chase pure accuracy bonuses, since doing more damage in a round is no longer dependent on having a 3rd or 4th (or 6th!) attack in a full attack action reliably connect with foes.

Most of the math and design work behind how Starfinder's weapons, attacks, feats, and more isn't particularly obvious to a typical player—quite intentionally—but we've put a lot of time into creating options that work well together, and making sure equipment and weapons generally come into play right at the point when it's appropriate for characters to access them. Hopefully this will allow players to focus less on finding some theoretical perfect combination of game elements for effectiveness, and more on interplanetary adventure!

Owen KC Stephens
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As long as there's at least one robot dog with a laser in its nose, I'm happy.
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One question I have not seen anywhere else. Since you are trying to keep melee useful and have classes that specialize in it - will there be some form of bayonet that ranged focused characters can equip so they don't have to switch back and forth. What about rules on using the stock/barrel as an improvised weapon?

That is actually a good question
I totally hated the bayonet in Pathfinder since you had to use a standard action to attack them and couldn't use the gun with the bayonet attached to stab people (raw) which kind of totally took away the point of having a friggin bayonett
Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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We don't have bayonets in the core rules, but they are sure to pop up.

I guess one could houserule that with a little attachment most knife-like weapons could be used as bayonett in case of doubt...

Yeah, that should be easy to houserule as "dagger" type weapons that cost slightly more. So you get the basic bayonet that deals as much damage as the basic dagger, then the laser bayonet that deals as much damage as the laser dagger, or what have you.

That was pretty much the idea
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Something I asked about at PaizoCon that I think is relevant here is that for the game I played in, Owen told us that reloading a weapon is a move action. I then asked if there was a feat that could shorten that time, and he said there is not.

At first, my inner Brainy Smurf came out and was wondering why not (because reasons that don't take into account game balance), but Owen put Brainy back in his place. :)

What's the reason then?
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I'm happy to see that rolling to confirm crits is gone. Always thought it was a bad rule that always deflated the awesomeness of rolling a crit.

I have to agree with you odraude.
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Odraude wrote:
I'm happy to see that rolling to confirm crits is gone. Always thought it was a bad rule that always deflated the awesomeness of rolling a crit.

Just remember that it goes both ways--it's great as a player not to have to confirm when you're attacking, but it's not so much fun when defending and the GM doesn't have to confirm a crit :)

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It had some utility in the edge cases of attacking something that you could only hit on a 20, since without it you'd crit every time you did manage to hit.

Starfinder's solution of just not allowing crits if you only hit on a 20 works for me though.

Yeah, the other day a monster rolled a 20 in my 5th edition game and inflicted 26 ponts of damage on a 1st level charachter.

The crit confirmation is a genius rule for reasons I pointed out earlier some of them mentioned above. The Starfinder solution is acceptable.

I didn't see some info on it earlier. some random info earlier but thought I'd straight up ask~

proficiency.. So its still a feat to get a proficiency for weapons/armour and such.
But is it proficiency per weapon, or does the one feat grant you for all of the weapons in that category?

I'm asking cause in Pathfinder.. honestly rarely if ever did I get exotic weapons because it was really quite a costy to pick up a side weapon like a bolas, net, boomerang and the like when it cost a fair amount.

I'm hoping that the proficiency in this one nets you larger categories considering your sinking in a fair bit. and as mentioned a few pages earlier, to get decent damaging going it'll eat up a large percentage of your feats in a game.
Quote:
But is it proficiency per weapon, or does the one feat grant you for all of the weapons in that category?

The blog post says feats usually work for a whole category like 'smallarms' or 'longarms' because there are a LOT of weapons in each category and while in pf every bastard sword is in essence identical to the next one (stats and how to use it mechanically) there are lots of differences between different guns over the levels - so prophiciency will like weapon focus most likely be for the whole category of the weapon you want to wield

so it is a little like firearm prophiciency in pathfinder as far as I understand it
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
We don't have bayonets in the core rules, but they are sure to pop up.

Yes please, space shotgun with laser bayonet please.

IonutRO wrote:
Yeah, that should be easy to houserule as "dagger" type weapons that cost slightly more. So you get the basic bayonet that deals as much damage as the basic dagger, then the laser bayonet that deals as much damage as the laser dagger, or what have you.

I would price it at the same as a regular dagger of its type, apply a flat penalty to hit and a moderate bonus to damage to reflect it being an awkward short spear but getting better leverage and two hands on the thing. -1/+1 or -2/+2 maybe to keep it simple. Maybe apply the penalty to the shooting aspect too so there is some trade off to consider.

There should really be undermounting Bayonets in the Core Rules, given that they are something of a staple in trench warfare.
I don't think they should be penalized either, I think the opportunity cost should be financial. You simply have to pay for the Bayonet itself (which gets expensive for the same reasons duel-wielding is expensive in Pathfinder), and likely you should have to pay a reasonable surcharge for firearms of any given level designed to accommodate a bayonet.
Scarab Sages
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The core rulebook is at the printer, it's too late for bayonets.

Note the term "should".
Maybe they could give us a free PDF of s%*& they-should-have-but-didn't-think-to-put-in-Starfinder then? Like the Bonus Bestiary, but with a half a dozen Undermounting Bayonets (of various levels) and rules for mounting them... How about Gunblades, every Science-Fantasy universe needs Gunblades... and Space-Wizards, you can't have enough Space-Wizards.
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If your gun needs a bayonet, what you really need is more gun.
QuidEst wrote:
If your gun needs a bayonet, what you really need is more gun.

Yes but the stupid level tiered weapon system means i am pretty much locked into level +2 in guns and i really need a trans-dimensional diffusion torch on my quantum channelling ion bore to make up for that.

Also, Bayonets should be compatible with everything! Flamethrowers, rocket launchers, emplaced heavy machine guns... what doesnt get better with a knife taped to it?
Torbyne wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If your gun needs a bayonet, what you really need is more gun.

Yes but the stupid level tiered weapon system means i am pretty much locked into level +2 in guns and i really need a trans-dimensional diffusion torch on my quantum channelling ion bore to make up for that.

Also, Bayonets should be compatible with everything! Flamethrowers, rocket launchers, emplaced heavy machine guns... what doesnt get better with a knife taped to it?

A knife?? That's a waste, I'd rather fix an axe to my gun! Now that's the way to go!!

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Rannik wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If your gun needs a bayonet, what you really need is more gun.

Yes but the stupid level tiered weapon system means i am pretty much locked into level +2 in guns and i really need a trans-dimensional diffusion torch on my quantum channelling ion bore to make up for that.

Also, Bayonets should be compatible with everything! Flamethrowers, rocket launchers, emplaced heavy machine guns... what doesnt get better with a knife taped to it?

A knife?? That's a waste, I'd rather fix an axe to my gun! Now that's the way to go!!

I am not high enough level to tape an axe to my gun yet...

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I just thought of this:
Kasatha, 4 different handguns, 4 different types of gun mounted bayonets (its irregular but at least in borderlands I saw it) which means 4 ways to f*** s*** up in melee and ranged combat
And I bet it looks pretty cool too...well, maybe a little edgy
pun not intended

I don't think the delicate electronics in a laser rifle would like it if you started using it as a spear.
Fardragon wrote:
I don't think the delicate electronics in a laser rifle would like it if you started using it as a spear.

Then don't use a laser. Gauss rifles are just coils of wire along the barrels. Heck, you could probably skip any attachment and just sharpen the tips of a railgun.

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Seisho wrote:

... And I bet it looks pretty cool too...well, maybe a little edgy

pun not intended

I don't believe you. I think that was intentional... very intentional, indeed.

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am little curious to see how the item level of weapons work with class features. It seems that a big chunk of damage scaling is related to the weapon and its item level. I wonder how much class abilities scale.

I am hoping the sword that did 12d10 or hammer 14d10 are extreme weapons, I see they are level 20. Not related to the damage but the dice rolling and adding that goes with it. On crit it is 24d10 plus 6d6 bleed. Not sure how that speeds up combat. At high levels may have to do average damage.

Dave2
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Fardragon wrote:
I don't think the delicate electronics in a laser rifle would like it if you started using it as a spear.

Now don't be laser riflist. A laser rifle can whatever it sets its mind to do. I mean not everyone is like an arc pistol.

Ashanderai wrote:
Seisho wrote:

... And I bet it looks pretty cool too...well, maybe a little edgy

pun not intended
I don't believe you. I think that was intentional... very intentional, indeed.

no seriously, I read that and had to edit the pun not intended line in

I like puns but as german I am not always that good with the english ones...
Fardragon wrote:
I don't think the delicate electronics in a laser rifle would like it if you started using it as a spear.

Nopes. If it is too delecate to bash something over the head than it has no place on a battlefield. Although i could see a weapon property along the lines of "experiemental" or "delicate" that specifically calls something out as too fragile to accept any modifications from the user such as sighting systems, bayonets or fushions. Basically make them into specific named weapons or let players buy them a level or two earlier than their normal versions.

Dave2 wrote:

I am little curious to see how the item level of weapons work with class features. It seems that a big chunk of damage scaling is related to the weapon and its item level. I wonder how much class abilities scale.

I am hoping the sword that did 12d8 is an extreme weapon. Not related the damage but the dice rolling and adding that goes with it. On crit it is 24d8 plus 6d6. Not sure how that speeds up combat.

Dave2

well you roll once for damage and then a batch of dice for the damage

else it would be possible: hit, damage, hit damage, hit, damage - and a check if you hit every time... I am sure this is going to speed up things, especially for me as gm when i let my peeps fight against a horde of space goblins
Dave2 wrote:

I am little curious to see how the item level of weapons work with class features. It seems that a big chunk of damage scaling is related to the weapon and its item level. I wonder how much class abilities scale.

I am hoping the sword that did 12d8 is an extreme weapon. Not related the damage but the dice rolling and adding that goes with it. On crit it is 24d8 plus 6d6. Not sure how that speeds up combat.

Dave2

So they already explained that every class gets an ability to deal 1/2 level on each hit with their class granted proficiencies and Soldiers or those who buy in with enough feats will add they full level to damage rolls with longarms and heavy weapons, that is a decent chunk right there. The Deadly Aim feat has been explained as applying to both melee and ranged attacks, it imposes a flat penalty to accuracy and an undefined scaling bonus to damage on top of everything else. Granted that is far more noticeable with a 1D4 pistol than on a 12D8 sword but the 12D8 sword was a very high level item, wasnt it? level 18 or so?

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

True on some levels I get that. Rolling to hit then one damage roll is quicker maybe than 4 to 6 attacks then damage. I just wonder if the stigma will be bath tub full dice like Shadowrun. I did edit above post some 12d10 and 14d10 and level 20 weapons.

Dave2

if its number of dice, borrow from other players? i dont think many would mind.

if its about rapidly adding together all those numbers than, well you usually dont start out at level 16+ with end game gear so you'll have a good long while to scale up and get used to using larger and large dice pools. Or maybe just use a home rule that matching AC deals minimum damage, beating AC by 5 deals average damage and beating by 10 or more is maximum damage. you know, what ever basically if people arent having fun with all the rolling.

But...but...to see how the dice rolls and maybe falls from a bad to a good roll (or the other way around) is one of the most exciting things!

And if you use online tools they usually add up the dice either way
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would agree that the specialization are chunk damage if you average damage on 12d10 it is 60. Adding 20 for specialization is chunk damage. With feats and class ability scaling I think may be 60 weapon 40 class abilities and feats.

I would agree that I do not have big issue with it. When pulling players over from Apocalypse World and Savage Worlds the number of dice makes them not want to do high level play, Average damage may work.

Dave2
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It would be the adding rapidly. Online tool good idea.

Dave2
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Seisho wrote:
Ashanderai wrote:
Seisho wrote:

... And I bet it looks pretty cool too...well, maybe a little edgy

pun not intended
I don't believe you. I think that was intentional... very intentional, indeed.

no seriously, I read that and had to edit the pun not intended line in

I like puns but as german I am not always that good with the english ones...

Dude, my remarks were intended to be humorous. I forgot to put up a smiley face. Please relax. My comments were just a sarcastic show of support for the pun. I did not intend to make you feel uncomfortable. I am sorry if I have done so.

Soap Box Moment about Puns:
I applaud the use of puns because I do enjoy them and I think it shows social courage to use them since they require a mastery of language most native english speakers do not seem to have any more these days. So they deride puns as low brow humor and groan at those who use puns. Bucking that attitude and showing your humor and intellect working in unison should be applauded. Puns are witty and a clever pun is a sure sign of intelligence in my book.
Grand Lodge
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Dunno. It's not like people aren't used to rolling lots of dice, it's just that instead of (usually) a ton of d6's you get different dice now.

So no more CL 15 disintegrate for 30d6 or an intensified fireball for 15d6, or any other highlevel AoE spell with level times d6, or for some druids with vital strike tree and wildshaping into a carnivorous crystal for loads of d8's on their damage dice.

Now everyone gets lots of dice to roll their damage with.
Dave2 wrote:

I would agree that the specialization are chunk damage if you average damage on 12d10 it is 60. Adding 20 for specialization is chunk damage. With feats and class ability scaling I think may be 60 weapon 40 class abilities and feats.

I would agree that I do not have big issue with it. When pulling players over from Apocalypse World and Savage Worlds the number of dice makes them not want to do high level play, Average damage may work.

Dave2

Average on 12d10 is 66, not 60.

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Damanta wrote:

Dunno. It's not like people aren't used to rolling lots of dice, it's just that instead of (usually) a ton of d6's you get different dice now.

So no more CL 15 disintegrate for 30d6 or an intensified fireball for 15d6, or any other highlevel AoE spell with level times d6, or for some druids with vital strike tree and wildshaping into a carnivorous crystal for loads of d8's on their damage dice.

Now everyone gets lots of dice to roll their damage with.

To me this is a good thing... a very good thing. I genuinely cannot wait to roll a handful of d8s or d12s like have been able to do for years in other games with d6s and d10s. I just know that those d8s and d12s have been jealous all these years and they can now finally get their turn to be on a homogeneous team of dice rolling over the fingertips of two cupped hands... It's wonderful!

No, I really am half-serious here; it's a good thing.

I dont see how 12d10 is worse than a wizard having to roll 15-20 dice at high levels.
Jhaeman wrote:
Odraude wrote:
I'm happy to see that rolling to confirm crits is gone. Always thought it was a bad rule that always deflated the awesomeness of rolling a crit.
Just remember that it goes both ways--it's great as a player not to have to confirm when you're attacking, but it's not so much fun when defending and the GM doesn't have to confirm a crit :)

I am a okay with that. Good to have the threat of death looming over every so often :D

One major problem I'm seeing with leveled weapons is just how badly a PC can be neutered if they're forced to use whatever they can scrounge up instead of what's level appropriate. A high level Starfinder character being forced to ditch their 12d10 weapon and use a 1d10 weapon is suffering way more then a Pathfinder character going from a +5 longsword to a standard longsword.
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I prefer damage gated behind money rather than accuracy. In PF that +5 could be half or more of your damage if you only hit on 11 or higher. Round by round, you'll have a lot of 0 damage rounds.

In SF, you'll still hit with lower gear and still do a decent chunk of damage. I prefer this.

Maybe there are class abilities that let you do level based damage by spending resolve points?
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well the simple way to do that is 120/2=60. Most would take the simple approach rather than 6 point damage difference when going for speed.

I would agree I had same thought. I do not think high level weapons would be super hard to get once you get the item level access. So loosing the 12d10 weapon would not be as hard to replace as magic weapons in Pathfinder. Also scaling of class abilities will come into play. Case Soldier fighting style and gear boosts.

Dave2
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