Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I mention the Main hand because a Two Handed weapon needs a Main hand to wield it with. When a character wields it with One Hand (being able to do so with a feat), it needs to be with the main hand, as the weapon normally needs a main and off hand to wield it. The character only has one Main Hand. (One Handed weapon can be wielded with an Off Hand)Hmm...
You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.So there shouldn't be any issues, what with it being used as a one-handed weapon (much like longswords and battleaxes). ^_^
Hopefully the Curse of the Crimson Throne Hardcover will give them an excuse to reprint the feat with new wording that matches their intentions.
You can use it as a one handed weapon, but the weapon itself is still Two Handed.
Thunder and Fang also has the fact that it is supposed to be with the Klar, using both in concert as a single double weapon. The wording was changed to "One Handed" so that the Earth Breaker would not be doing 1.5 str mod damage and other two handed stuff while using it with only One Hand.
To make it Clear, you need a Main Hand to wield a Two Handed Weapon. It doesn't matter if you use one hand to wield it (With the ability granted be a feat or class) or both, a Two Handed Weapon can not be wielded in the Off Hand alone.
Wield One. Not Two. Not an Oversized One.
Last post, I went through this on three other threads.
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That's because you're making up rules at this point. Of course a two handed weapon can't be wielded in the offhand. Just like a two handed weapon can't be wielded in a single hand. But one handed weapons can be wielded in one hand--which is what that feat says it is. And one hand is one hand--at this point it doesn't matter if it's "main" or "off".
Honestly what's it matter if someone does try to dual wield them? One, the text says you can (because one handed weapons can be used in either hand). Two, their to-hit is going to suck. It sounds like a self-correcting problem to me. And even if they can get around their attack rolls sucking, it's more of a gimmick than something worthwhile. There are plenty of ways a melee character can be built that will outperform someone trying to use two of these. And even then the best melee character is outperformed by the most mediocre caster so I don't see why you're so adamant about this not working.
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I'm curious where this idea about "must be main hand" is coming from?
If a TWF with a longsword and a dagger decides to more he and single attack, they could declair their dagger hand as their "main" hand attack that round. It does not automatically day fault to be the longsword or right hand or larger weapon (category).
It doesn't even really need to be a hand at all, such as armor spikes.
Contributor
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You can use it as a one handed weapon, but the weapon itself is still Two Handed.
I don't see anything to support that in Thunder and Fang. It pretty clearly says "as a one-handed weapon", not "a two-handed weapon used in one hand".
Thunder and Fang also has the fact that it is supposed to be with the Klar, using both in concert as a single double weapon. The wording was changed to "One Handed" so that the Earth Breaker would not be doing 1.5 str mod damage and other two handed stuff while using it with only One Hand.
Interesting. Do rules-as-intended override rules-as-written in Pathfinder Society? I was under the impression that they didn't - see the titan mauler and Blood of the Night. Hopefully Paizo prints a corrected version, like they did with the latter.
To make it Clear, you need a Main Hand to wield a Two Handed Weapon. It doesn't matter if you use one hand to wield it (With the ability granted be a feat or class) or both, a Two Handed Weapon can not be wielded in the Off Hand alone.
Wield One. Not Two. Not an Oversized One.
Good thing the T&F character wields an earth breaker "as a one-handed weapon", then. See: longswords, battleaxes.
Last post, I went through this on three other threads.
Not sure what the number of threads you've participated in has to do with this, but fair enough. Enjoy your day. ^_^
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Contributor
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If you're talking about this line:
You have mastered the ancient Shoanti Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.
I'm not sure that constitutes a mechanical limitation, since it comes before the Prerequisites line, in the section usually treated as flavor. Do you require characters with the Divine Protection feat to worship a specific deity?
Your deity protects you against deadly attacks.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks.
Does that feat have a third, unwritten prerequisite? Or does it only work that way for specific feats? Which feats follow this rule, and which don't?
It's rather confusing. Perhaps someone could furnish us with a list. ^_^
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'm not sure that constitutes a mechanical limitation, since it comes before the Prerequisites line, in the section usually treated as flavor. Do you require characters with the Divine Protection feat to worship a specific deity?
Yes, actually.
It's a roleplaying game. Flavor is what the mechanics are built on, not something optional to be discarded at whim.
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Contributor
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I'm not sure that constitutes a mechanical limitation, since it comes before the Prerequisites line, in the section usually treated as flavor. Do you require characters with the Divine Protection feat to worship a specific deity?Yes, actually.
It's a roleplaying game. Flavor is what the mechanics are built on, not something optional to be discarded at whim.
And do you enforce that houserule at PFS tables?
(I don't disagree with that decision in home games, for the record.)
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Contributor
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I should also note that I'm talking purely about PFS, given the blog post we're commenting on. Whether I agree with a lot of these decisions (or their flavor) is, in my mind, largely irrelevant when people can show up to my table with an eidolon described as "a gorilla in a three-piece suit, carrying a briefcase".
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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And do you enforce that houserule at PFS tables?
It's never come up, but I would tell the player that (despite his lack of worship) some deity has taken an interest in his character. That still makes it "your deity", even if you don't personally know (yet) which deity it is.
Conversely, I would consider it a houserule to claim that a feat that clearly states "wielding an earth breaker and klar" can be used while wielding something else.
Where in the rules are "handedness", "primary hand", "main hand", and "off hand" defined? What if the character is ambidextrous?
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Where in the rules are "handedness", "primary hand", "main hand", and "off hand" defined? What if the character is ambidextrous?
The rules for handedness only come into play in the section on two-weapon fighting and full-attack actions. Ambidexterity was removed because almost everyone was becoming ambidextrous.
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2
Where in the rules are "handedness", "primary hand", "main hand", and "off hand" defined? What if the character is ambidextrous?The rules for handedness only come into play in the section on two-weapon fighting and full-attack actions. Ambidexterity was removed because almost everyone was becoming ambidextrous.
** spoiler omitted **
Seems to me the fix to "everyone was becoming ambidextrous" is to make handedness a die roll, not a free choice. Something like a d100:
85 or less: right handed.
86 to 95: left handed.
96+: ambidextrous.
That also takes care of defining the primary or main hand and the secondary or off hand.
Seems to me you should be better at things like deflecting (or catching) arrows with your primary hand, too. There are probably other situations that could be affected by handedness.
Just reading the "Thunder and Fang" feat description, it provides for using an Earthbreaker and a Klar. Two Earthbreakers is a different thing, and I would rule that the Thunder and Fang feat is irrelevant; this is a straight TWF application, using two two-handed weapons. Which brings up another question: absent feats, what are the penalties, if any, for using a two-handed weapon in only one hand? Maybe you're right handed, and your left arm is broken — or your right arm is broken, you're wielding the weapon left handed, and so you get "off hand" penalties as well as whatever penalties might apply for using a two-handed weapon one handed.
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Where in the rules are "handedness", "primary hand", "main hand", and "off hand" defined? What if the character is ambidextrous?The rules for handedness only come into play in the section on two-weapon fighting and full-attack actions. Ambidexterity was removed because almost everyone was becoming ambidextrous.
** spoiler omitted **
Seems to me the fix to "everyone was becoming ambidextrous" is to make handedness a die roll, not a free choice. Something like a d100:
85 or less: right handed.
86 to 95: left handed.
96+: ambidextrous.That also takes care of defining the primary or main hand and the secondary or off hand.
Seems to me you should be better at things like deflecting (or catching) arrows with your primary hand, too. There are probably other situations that could be affected by handedness.
Just reading the "Thunder and Fang" feat description, it provides for using an Earthbreaker and a Klar. Two Earthbreakers is a different thing, and I would rule that the Thunder and Fang feat is irrelevant; this is a straight TWF application, using two two-handed weapons. Which brings up another question: absent feats, what are the penalties, if any, for using a two-handed weapon in only one hand? Maybe you're right handed, and your left arm is broken — or your right arm is broken, you're wielding the weapon left handed, and so you get "off hand" penalties as well as whatever penalties might apply for using a two-handed weapon one handed.
None of this is relevant to discussing Pathfinder rules. All of what you said is strictly homebrew territory.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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It's very basic.
I look at the feat, I can do this.
It never does say I can wield two Earth Breakers, nor that I can wield an oversized one.
The main thing to remember is that the weapon itself is still Two Handed. Except with the particular in the feat, it still has the limitations of a Two Handed Weapon. It also keeps the damage die of a Two Handed Weapon when using it as described in the feat, that is, the Earth Breaker is still doing 2D6 damage instead of a step down because of being a One Handed Weapon.
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It's very basic.
I look at the feat, I can do this.
It never does say I can wield two Earth Breakers, nor that I can wield an oversized one.
The main thing to remember is that the weapon itself is still Two Handed. Except with the particular in the feat, it still has the limitations of a Two Handed Weapon. It also keeps the damage die of a Two Handed Weapon when using it as described in the feat, that is, the Earth Breaker is still doing 2D6 damage instead of a step down because of being a One Handed Weapon.
No it doesn't. That's just nonsense. You can wield it like a 1 handed weapon. So now treat it like a longsword (or any other 1 handed weapon). With two hands can you wield a longsword in each? "With this particular feat" you are now wielding it as though it is a one handed weapon. So you can do anything with an earthbreaker that you could do with a one handed weapon.
Of course the damage isn't decreased. The feat doesn't it say it decreases. Nor are there any rules anywhere that says damage dice increase/decrease based on how you wield a weapon. Are you implying that a longsword should jump up to a larger damage die if I wield it in both hands? Saying this is just going to add to the confusion because nothing anywhere does anything similar to this. Yes, there may be an exception somewhere that I'm unaware of, but again that's just an exception and doesn't change the overall point.
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Contributor
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Speaking of homebrew territory...
It's very basic.
I look at the feat, I can do this.
"You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon."
With you so far.
It never does say I can wield two Earth Breakers, nor that I can wield an oversized one.
Technically, it also "never does say" that you can wield a two-handed weapon and a klar when two-weapon fighting. By your interpretation (see the next portion), the feat does literally nothing.
The main thing to remember is that the weapon itself is still Two Handed. Except with the particular in the feat, it still has the limitations of a Two Handed Weapon.
That limitation being "you must use two hands to wield this weapon". See my previous point re: useless feat.
It also keeps the damage die of a Two Handed Weapon when using it as described in the feat, that is, the Earth Breaker is still doing 2D6 damage instead of a step down because of being a One Handed Weapon.
Interesting. Can you show me where, in the rules, changing the number of hands you use for a weapon affects its damage die? This is completely new to me.
None of this is relevant to discussing Pathfinder rules. All of what you said is strictly homebrew territory.
I disagree on both counts. And you didn't answer my questions. Let me restate them:
1. Can you, absent a feat, using just the core rules*, wield a two-handed weapon with one hand?
2. If so, is there a penalty to your attack or damage roll?
3. If there is such a penalty, what is it?
*Bonus question: if there's something in another book (not a feat) that changes the core rules, what is that and which book is it in?
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None of this is relevant to discussing Pathfinder rules. All of what you said is strictly homebrew territory.I disagree on both counts. And you didn't answer my questions.
I disagree with your disagreement on one count. But you're right, I didn't answer your one question. It depends on your perspective. There are two answers which are both the same answer.
1) You don't get any penalties for using a two-handed weapon in one hand because you can't do it.
2) The penalty for using a two-handed in one hand is that you can't use it.
This is the general rule and without specific circumstances overriding it this is how it is. The rest of your post is just making up rules that don't have a place in this conversation.
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We cross-posted. :-)
You're being awfully dismissive. I'm just trying to have a conversation here. You don't want to have one, fine. But don't dismiss what I say like that. It's rude.
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None of this is relevant to discussing Pathfinder rules. All of what you said is strictly homebrew territory.I disagree on both counts. And you didn't answer my questions. Let me restate them:
1. Can you, absent a feat, using just the core rules*, wield a two-handed weapon with one hand?
2. If so, is there a penalty to your attack or damage roll?
3. If there is such a penalty, what is it?*Bonus question: if there's something in another book (not a feat) that changes the core rules, what is that and which book is it in?
1) no
2) see 13) see 1
* there's the Thunder and Fang feat that lets you wield an earthbreaker, normally a 2HW, as a 1HW. And a Barb Archetype, titen mauler, that can wield a 2HW as a 1HW.
But since we are discussing PFS rule clarification. Talking about handedness and penalties with handedness aren't really appropriate in this thread. It's homebrew ideas which are specifically not allowed in PFS. Since is prohibited, talking about it here is just clutter to the main point of clarifying PFS rules.
If you have a rule question the RULES forum is the best place to post those, while if you're wanting to discuss Handedness and potential penalties for wielding weapons differently go to the HOMEBREW section.
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But since we are discussing PFS rule clarification. Talking about handedness and penalties with handedness aren't really appropriate in this thread. It's homebrew ideas which are specifically not allowed in PFS. Since is prohibited, talking about it here is just clutter to the main point of clarifying PFS rules.
If you have a rule question the RULES forum is the best place to post those, while if you're wanting to discuss Handedness and potential penalties for wielding weapons differently go to the HOMEBREW section.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at by saying it's not relevant to the conversation. I see that I may have been overly dismissive without saying why but this is what was going through my head.
I'm not sure where chess pwn pulled that quote from but I didn't see those original questions and wasn't specifically responding to that post. I also didn't realize that you didn't know we were talking about "a one handed earthbreaker" within the context of the feat Thunder and Fang.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Interesting. Do rules-as-intended override rules-as-written in Pathfinder Society? I was under the impression that they didn't
I've seen lot of examples of "yes they do" and not a single one of "no".
I can give many examples, but I'll give one.
The gunslinger archetype combo that granted Dex to damage with a pistol but didn't explicitly take away gun training. There were lots of debates on whether or not RAW you get Dex to damage from both Pistol training and Gun Training. Mike Brock made it clear you didn't and make it clear that any character using this to get double dex to damage would be UN-retrainably dead and no free retrain would be granted. Because it should be obvious what the intended reading of the rules.
But since we are discussing PFS rule clarification. Talking about handedness and penalties with handedness aren't really appropriate in this thread. It's homebrew ideas which are specifically not allowed in PFS. Since is prohibited, talking about it here is just clutter to the main point of clarifying PFS rules.
If you have a rule question the RULES forum is the best place to post those, while if you're wanting to discuss Handedness and potential penalties for wielding weapons differently go to the HOMEBREW section.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at by saying it's not relevant to the conversation. I see that I may have been overly dismissive without saying why but this is what was going through my head.
I'm not sure where chess pwn pulled that quote from but I didn't see those original questions and wasn't specifically responding to that post. I also didn't realize that you didn't know we were talking about "a one handed earthbreaker" within the context of the feat Thunder and Fang.
The PFS point is fair enough. Those three questions were in my reply where I said I disagree with you. To be fair, I added them via edit, though it was right after I submitted the original post. You may have missed them.
So to summarize:
1. Absent a feat, you cannot use a two-handed weapon one-handed (this applies to both PFS and the wider game).
2. With just Two Weapon Fighting (TWF), you still can't use a two-handed weapon in one hand (again, both PFS and the wider game).
3. With TWF and Thunder and Fang (T&F), there is a question whether "You can use an Earthbreaker as if it were a one-handed weapon" allows you to use two Earthbreakers via the "two-weapon fighting" feat, which you must have since it's a prerequisite for T&F.
Is this a fair summary?
Assuming it is, point three seems to have two possible interpretations:
3a. No, you can't use two Earthbreakers via TWF, because T&F only allows you to use an Earthbreaker as if it were one-handed when using it with a Klar.
3b. Yes, you can, because the T&F feat allows you to use an Earthbreaker one-handed, whatever is in your other hand. So TWF allows you to use two Earthbreakers.
If this is an accurate summary of the question, then I'd personally go with 3a, because it makes more sense to me on several levels. But I suppose the definitive answer is going to have to come from the folks in charge - and that ain't me.
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3a. No, you can't use two Earthbreakers via TWF, because T&F only allows you to use an Earthbreaker as if it were one-handed when using it with a Klar.
3b. Yes, you can, because the T&F feat allows you to use an Earthbreaker one-handed, whatever is in your other hand. So TWF allows you to use two Earthbreakers.
Yes, you are correct on all now. 3a was obviously the intent. But it plainly allows 3b. I don't have a horse in this race (as in none of my characters do this in one way or another), but the feat very plainly allows 3b even though the intent is very plainly 3a. And if a player wants to do 3b there shouldn't be any issue with it.
Sure, IF they hit they'll hit hard, but between the iteratives and neither being a light weapon there will be huge penalties (i.e. they won't hit often past their first swing, if that one even hits). There are more efficient melee characters (both in terms of damage and actual efficiency) that this shouldn't even matter. And in a world where magic exists, this by far is one of the less broken things players try to pull off (and far more broken things are perfectly legal).
No disrepect intended, claude, but in my last post I said "that ain't me". Far as I know, it ain't you either. :-)
Should this question be submitted as a faq request? How do we do that?
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No disrepect intended, claude, but in my last post I said "that ain't me". Far as I know, it ain't you either. :-)
Should this question be submitted as a faq request? How do we do that?
I take no disrespect from you restating what you've already stated. I don't see what necessitated restating it, but I don't take any disrespect from it.
Ideally yes but unfortunately there's no point to it. Paizo, as a general rule, doesn't revisit material outside the Core line (Thunder and Fang is from a player companion). That's why it's being debated in this thread--so that PFS can get a specific ruling for it.
For what it's worth, I would be perfectly fine with the PFS-powers-that-be implementing a rule that Thunder and Fang only works how it was intended.
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Thank you, Kinevon.
I believe that Adopted had always been intended to be used with all the "racial" traits, though this was a part of the confusion of giving them the basic trait categories in the first place.
Hope it is clarified, still crossing fingers.
John and I reviewed the posts in this thread and discussed the interactions between Gnomes of Golarion and the Adopted trait. We will be including them in the next update of the Clarifications Document.
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This thread is a useful place for us to review what people want clarified. We appreciate being able to bring your discussions and rules citations into our discussions of how to handle ambiguities. To make this thread as useful as possible, if you notice that a discussion on a specific topic is taking more than a few posts, please move it to another thread and link that thread in here. That way, a post on a different topic won't get buried in the middle, and we can find and follow the discussion more easily.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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This thread is a useful place for us to review what people want clarified. We appreciate being able to bring your discussions and rules citations into our discussions of how to handle ambiguities. To make this thread as useful as possible, if you notice that a discussion on a specific topic is taking more than a few posts, please move it to another thread and link that thread in here. That way, a post on a different topic won't get buried in the middle, and we can find and follow the discussion more easily.
Thank you, Linda!
Hmm
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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This thread is a useful place for us to review what people want clarified. We appreciate being able to bring your discussions and rules citations into our discussions of how to handle ambiguities. To make this thread as useful as possible, if you notice that a discussion on a specific topic is taking more than a few posts, please move it to another thread and link that thread in here. That way, a post on a different topic won't get buried in the middle, and we can find and follow the discussion more easily.
Awesome, thanks!
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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There is a discussion about the "As a One Handed" for Two Handed weapons in a variety of thread. There is one that I have commented on recently here....Two Handed Archtype and Cleave
It is a bit off topic to the thread, but something the OP was trying to effect in some way. I believe the OP got his answer some time upthread.
The basics are, the character size and the weapon designation never changes, the character skills with those weapons do.
Thanks, Linda!! Last post on this one in this thread.
An issue that has bothered me quite a bit is how to read Dragon Totem Resilience. RAW it adds 2 to a barbarian's DR per Dragon Totem rage power (plus some other things), but due to how powerful that would be and the general context of the rage power many think it's a typo, and was supposed to be energy resistance. I know that as is I would feel very dirty bringing it to a PFS table without some official source saying how I should read it.
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An issue that has bothered me quite a bit is how to read Dragon Totem Resilience. RAW it adds 2 to a barbarian's DR per Dragon Totem rage power (plus some other things), but due to how powerful that would be and the general context of the rage power many think it's a typo, and was supposed to be energy resistance. I know that as is I would feel very dirty bringing it to a PFS table without some official source saying how I should read it.
You read it as written. Just because some feel it's over powered doesn't mean it's ambiguous.
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Since I have an Oread boon and very strong motivation to make one of these, another useful clarification would be: Does Shaitan Binder "modify" an eidolon's base form?
My belief is that it doesn't... but it depends on how one uses the term "modifies", and in what context.
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Since I have an Oread boon and very strong motivation to make one of these, another useful clarification would be: Does Shaitan Binder "modify" an eidolon's base form?
My belief is that it doesn't... but it depends on how one uses the term "modifies", and in what context.
I'm pretty sure modify is any change to the base form. Any addition, subtraction, or sideways change.
I'm not sure how adding a +2 to a stat can be viewed as not modifying the base form, since its no longer the same as it was before.