Meet the Villains—Linxia Benzekri

Wednesday, December 30, 2015

The countdown to the Hell's Vengeance Adventure Path continues, as we reveal the next iconic villain that will appear in Paizo's first Adventure Path for evil characters! Today we get our first glimpse of the iconic Hellknight, Linxia Benzekri. Check out Pathfinder Adventure Path #104: Wrath of Thrune for Linxia's full stat block, and keep an eye out for the upcoming Hell's Vengeance Player's Guide, which contains all of the new iconic villains for use as pregenerated characters!


Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Linxia Benzekri was born and raised in Khari, the Chelish enclave on the northwest corner of Garund. Although ethnically Garundi, Linxia always thought of herself as Chelaxian. After all, Khari had been part of Cheliax since long before she was ever born, and though Linxia's parents kept their Garundi surname, they gave her a traditional Chelish first name. Her family long ago abandoned the clan ties that define many Garundi, and while Linxia's grandparents still occasionally spoke Osiriani in private, it was never spoken in her own home, and Linxia never bothered to learn her native tongue. To Linxia, the mighty ruins of the Arch of Aroden that tower above Khari were more a symbol of her heritage than the city's Rahadoumi sandstone architecture.

When Linxia was still a child, her parents sent her to an Asmodean convent. Both of Linxia's parents were successful merchants and traders, and though they were not religious, they felt it was important for their eldest child to receive a good education if she were to join the family business. At the convent, Linxia learned the grand history of Cheliax, how House Thrune unified a warring nation with the blessings of Asmodeus, and the necessity of laws based on those of Hell itself to preserve an ordered society.

Linxia returned home a teenager, now a loyal Chelish citizen ready to do her part to support the empire. But she was taken aback when she overheard her parents talking with an old family friend about a secret cabal of Garundi gentry who wanted to return Khari to "its rightful home" of Rahadoum. Horrified that her parents were involved in such a treasonous plot, Linxia reasoned that her parents' friend must have lured them into the conspiracy, so she immediately reported them to the city guard, the dottari.

That night, two Hellknights of the Order of the Rack—dressed in their characteristic night-black armor and flayed-skin cloaks—came to Linxia's house to arrest her parents for sedition. As her parents were hauled away in chains, loudly proclaiming their innocence and begging the impassive Hellknights to show mercy, Linxia only watched in silence. If her parents were truly innocent, then she trusted the law to exonerate them.

Linxia's parents were judged guilty that same night, and the next morning, Linxia went to the city square to witness their sentences: scourged with whips until their backs looked like the exposed musculature of the Hellknights' armor, crucified, and then disemboweled. Through it all, Linxia watched without emotion. She was not happy to see her parents' excruciation, but neither did she feel sadness. Even though she still believed her parents were duped, they had been found guilty of treason and had to be punished. The law had spoken.

Three days later, when her parents finally succumbed to their tortures and died, Linxia made a decision: she would become a Hellknight herself. Her parents' crime was not their own—they had been misled by a friend, and paid the price. As a member of the Order of the Rack, however, she could help protect other innocents from such dangerous whispers and prevent them from suffering the same fate. The Hellknights personified the law and order that guarded civilization and prevented it from sliding back into barbarity; people like the "friend" who had deceived her parents were criminals whose actions threatened the very fabric of society.

As a symbol of her dedication, Linxia shaved her head and got a tattoo of the Order of the Rack's symbol—a spiked torture wheel—on her forehead, so every time she looked in the mirror she would be reminded of her goal, her purpose, and the terrible consequences of failure. Linxia traveled to Avistan and presented herself at the gates of Citadel Rivad, headquarters of the Order of the Rack, and was accepted into the order as an armiger, a Hellknight squire in training.

Linxia devoted herself to her new calling, honing her mind and body for the trials that lay ahead. She had received basic combat training at the Asmodean monastery, but under the tutelage of the Hellknights, she learned to fight in heavy armor, mastered the sword and whip, and learned strategy, tactics, and engineering. When not practicing the arts of war, Linxia obsessively studied in Citadel Rivad's library, memorizing the tenets of the Hellknights' philosophy, the Measure and the Chain. To strengthen her resolve and desensitize herself to pain, Linxia regularly and willingly underwent the Order of the Rack's reckoning, purging herself of weakness and undisciplined thoughts by drinking boiling water until her throat scarred and left her voice a ragged rasp.

Before Linxia could become a full Hellknight, however, the Order of the Rack had a test for her loyalty. One of Linxia's brothers had been arrested for attempting to rekindle the spark of rebellion that had been stamped out in Khari with her parents' execution. He had been tried, found guilty, and brought to Citadel Rivad for sentencing. Without hesitation, Linxia drew her sword, and looking straight into her brother's eyes, beheaded him without remorse. Like her parents, Linxia's brother had broken the law. Justice was served.

With her training complete, her loyalty and dedication to the law tested and found sufficient, Linxia faced her final task: single combat with a summoned barbazu. All around her, many of her fellow armigers failed in this final trial, slain by the devils' barbed glaives or succumbing to infernal wounds and infections they suffered at the hands of the fiends. But Linxia succeeded, emerging bloodied but triumphant, her studies, training, and most of all, her determination, leading her to victory.

When she had recovered from her ordeal, Linxia was accorded the full rank of Hellknight and granted the symbol of her station: a suit of Hellknight plate armor, bearing the same flayed musculature motif as the Hellknights who had arrested and executed her parents. Now Linxia serves as a righteous bastion of law against the chaos of insidious knowledge, corrupt philosophies, and rebellious thought. With her sword, she enforces conformity and justice to preserve a peaceful and ordered society—no matter the cost.

Stay tuned over the coming months as we reveal more of the villains you'll see in the pages of our first evil Adventure Path, Hell's Vengeance!

Rob McCreary
Senior Developer

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Tags: Hell's Vengeance Hellknights Iconics Linxia Meet the Iconics Pathfinder Adventure Path Wayne Reynolds
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Question: Lin-Sha or Links-ia?

Also: While, like all Hellknights, she seems to be Lawful first, the difference between neutral and evil is largely about how you pursue your principles and what means you find appropriate. She seems entirely willing to accept cruelty and enforcement by any means necessary regardless of degree of infraction, which definitely suggests evil to me, even if it is secondary to the lawfulness.

Silver Crusade

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Another thing is that while 'righteous' and 'innocents' are mentioned it's all from her point of view. Her completely effed up point of view, brought about by corruption and brainwashing from being sent to a church of Evil and went through a very biased and revised history and education.

I don't hate her as much as Lazarro, she's definitely not even in "douchebag" territory. But she is Evil with a capital E.

Ruthless, soulless, emotionless, broken, pitiful.

I actually feel sorry for her.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:

Another thing is that while 'righteous' and 'innocents' are mentioned it's all from her point of view. Her completely effed up point of view, brought about by corruption and brainwashing from being sent to a church of Evil and went through a very biased and revised history and education.

I don't hate her as much as Lazarro, she's definitely not even in "douchebag" territory. But she is Evil with a capital E.

Ruthless, soulless, emotionless, broken, pitiful.

I actually feel sorry for her.

Your first paragraph was my takeaway as well. Her whole point of view is so twisted and she is trying to justify to herself why things (including her evilness) were okay.

Silver Crusade

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Gerald wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Another thing is that while 'righteous' and 'innocents' are mentioned it's all from her point of view. Her completely effed up point of view, brought about by corruption and brainwashing from being sent to a church of Evil and went through a very biased and revised history and education.

I don't hate her as much as Lazarro, she's definitely not even in "douchebag" territory. But she is Evil with a capital E.

Ruthless, soulless, emotionless, broken, pitiful.

I actually feel sorry for her.

Your first paragraph was my takeaway as well. Her whole point of view is so twisted and she is trying to justify to herself why things (including her evilness) were okay.

Yeah, it's really messed up.

One of the reasons I hate most of the Hellknights, poor deluded souls who truly believe they're doing what's right.

Silver Crusade

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And it really doesn't help any that the Order of the Rack are just revisionists and professional asskissers for Thrune. Who brutally torture and murder people for expressing ideas outside a carefully and brutally cultivated image.

The Order of The Rack wrote:

The government of Cheliax is highly interested in how it is viewed by others, and rewrites history not only to suit its interpretation of both current and past events, but also to exact revenge upon those who have fallen out of favor by literally writing them out of the official history book. Every three months a new version of the history of Cheliax is produced by the imperial printing presses, and it is the sacred duty of the Order of the Rack to retrieve the outdated versions from all libraries, schools, and institutions. These older editions are then burned in so-called 'clarity pyres".[/quote

Dark Archive

Gleaming Terrier wrote:
DAAAAAAAMN.

(Quite Literally)

Dark Archive

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James Hunt 795 wrote:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

-Old Proverb

One forgets the most important part. The road to hell will still always lead to hell.

Silver Crusade

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baron arem heshvaun wrote:
James Hunt 795 wrote:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

-Old Proverb
One forgets the most important part. The road to hell will still always lead to hell.

One forgets as well that the most twisted of minds can twist even Hells into Heavens.

Sovereign Court Senior Developer

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The Golux wrote:

Question: Lin-Sha or Links-ia?

Answer: LINKS-ee-ah


Yeah seems pretty LN to me, oh well

it seems like a lot of people think "one evil act > evil, 100 good acts, no alignment change"

For example, she killed a devil, thats probably a good act right

Dark Archive Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere

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CWheezy wrote:

For example, she killed a devil, thats probably a good act right

"Another man's evil does not make you good."

She's definitely Lawful Evil. Laws are there to protect people- she has turned them to a tool of oppression and holds no qualms about killing her own family for their crimes. She thinks that her parents death was a right thing. All these sound like mind set of sociopath at least.

She sounds like a great character. I really like the design and her backstory is down right chilling. She sounds like a great villain, and those are always great characters.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

since we just dealt with the 2 lawful evils I wonder what alignments will be next? Chaotic Evil? Neutral Evil?


There's supposed to be 2 LE, 2 NE, and 2 CE, IIRC.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CWheezy wrote:
it seems like a lot of people think "one evil act > evil, 100 good acts, no alignment change"

Good acts? What good acts? She's enforcing the Hell-derived legal code espoused by Thrune loyalists, inflicting torture and death on people who might just, you know, not want to give ALL of their fruit cup to Thrune this week..

Quote:
For example, she killed a devil, thats probably a good act right

The Runelords of Thassilon killed all sorts of evil critters- especially each other, given the chance. That didn't make those acts good.

Slaying a summoned Devil (requiring the casting of a spell with the Evil descriptor, for the record) for the express purpose of joining an organization dedicated to infernalism isn't a "good" act, any more than a gang initiate shooting a member of a rival gang dead is.

She's not mustache-twirling, "bwah-hahahaha, I WILL RULE THE WORLD!" evil, but she is still evil- the petty, banal, everyday evil that lets a society like Cheliax function.


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There's way too much misinformation about Hellknights in this thread.

Hellknights are not an Asmodean organization, or even a Thrune-run organization. There are plenty of Asmodeans and Thrune-thugs in the Hellknights of course, because they're a Lawful organization that mostly operates out of Cheliax, but a Good person who joins the Hellknights to uphold righteous law is not deluded nor slowly succumbing to Evil any more than an Evil person who joins is being tempted by the light.

They're ridiculously hard on themselves, and they take their jobs very seriously, but whether you commit Evil to uphold the law or restrain yourself to walk the hard path to Heaven, it's on you. The Hellknights, as an organization, don't care either way as long as the law is enforced and stability is achieved.

The difference between Orders and their leadership is what will mostly determine this sort of thing. If you join an Order devoted to slaughtering anyone who voices dissent, then yeah, you're probably Evil... because you chose to join that Order. You could join any number of other Good-friendly orders (Order of the Chain, Order of the Scourge, Order of the Pike, Order of the Scar, Order of the Torrent, Order of the Godclaw).

Linxia's not Evil for choosing to join the Hellknights. She's Evil because she was raised by Asmodeans in Cheliax and drowned herself in the Kool-aid.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Society for Appreciation of Non-Evil Aligned Hellknights approves the above message.

Silver Crusade

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Order of the Chain is not a "good-friendly" Order. They protect slaves from overly sadistic masters true, but they also make sure they remain slaves and hunt down runaway ones.

"Congratulations, did you want a cookie for not being a complete monster? You don't even get that."

Sovereign Court

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Rysky wrote:

Another thing is that while 'righteous' and 'innocents' are mentioned it's all from her point of view. Her completely effed up point of view, brought about by corruption and brainwashing from being sent to a church of Evil and went through a very biased and revised history and education.

I don't hate her as much as Lazarro, she's definitely not even in "douchebag" territory. But she is Evil with a capital E.

Ruthless, soulless, emotionless, broken, pitiful.

I actually feel sorry for her.

The complexity of her character that allows anyone to feel sorry for her, while she is still definitely a villain/evil is part of why I really like this iconic - heck, part of why I have liked all of the Iconics so far.

Silver Crusade

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Leandro Garvel wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Another thing is that while 'righteous' and 'innocents' are mentioned it's all from her point of view. Her completely effed up point of view, brought about by corruption and brainwashing from being sent to a church of Evil and went through a very biased and revised history and education.

I don't hate her as much as Lazarro, she's definitely not even in "douchebag" territory. But she is Evil with a capital E.

Ruthless, soulless, emotionless, broken, pitiful.

I actually feel sorry for her.

The complexity of her character that allows anyone to feel sorry for her, while she is still definitely a villain/evil is part of why I really like this iconic - heck, part of why I have liked all of the Iconics so far.

Agreed. Linxia's story has so far risen the bar ever so slightly for this AP in my eyes, granted it was almost rock bottom after reading the synopisis of it and completely went rock bottom after reading Lazarro's story so that's not saying much but still.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't understand the problem some people have with the very existence of an evil AP.


Actually, how does her story work for a starting character? I find it a bit hard to square her having defeated a Barbazu with still being a level 1 figher, cavalier or whatever else she is.

Silver Crusade

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Gorbacz wrote:
I don't understand the problem some people have with the very existence of an evil AP.

I have absolutely no problem with an evil AP. I just have no interest in a story where you work for House Thrune, who I despise, against a group that was built up in the previous AP who I happen to like but apparently it was for naught since they were introduced solely to get knocked down.

Silver Crusade

The Shaman wrote:
Actually, how does her story work for a starting character? I find it a bit hard to square her having defeated a Barbazu with still being a level 1 figher, cavalier or whatever else she is.

Her backstory as presented is for her at 7th level I believe.


Rysky wrote:

Order of the Chain is not a "good-friendly" Order. They protect slaves from overly sadistic masters true, but they also make sure they remain slaves and hunt down runaway ones.

"Congratulations, did you want a cookie for not being a complete monster? You don't even get that."

They only enforce slavery if that's the law. So find work in a country where slavery isn't legal. Find work in a prison where you can be reasonably sure the prisoners all deserve their incarceration.

Act as the internal affairs of this justice system and weed out authority figures who would abuse their power over the citizenry.

There's a million Good ways to operate in all those Orders I listed.

Silver Crusade

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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Order of the Chain is not a "good-friendly" Order. They protect slaves from overly sadistic masters true, but they also make sure they remain slaves and hunt down runaway ones.

"Congratulations, did you want a cookie for not being a complete monster? You don't even get that."

They only enforce slavery if that's the law. So find work in a country where slavery isn't legal. Find work in a prison where you can be reasonably sure the prisoners all deserve their incarceration.

Act as the internal affairs of this justice system and weed out authority figures who would abuse their power over the citizenry.

There's a million Good ways to operate in all those Orders I listed.

The Order of the Chain is based in Cheliax, where Slavery is legal.

Besides, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't let you join if you did have a problem with slavery and/or ask to go somewhere where it is illegal.

I can bet there have been instances where they've been attacked or arrested while trying to "apprehend" a runaway slave who made it to a country where it's illegal.


Hellknight #685,340 wrote:
The difference between Orders and their leadership is what will mostly determine this sort of thing. If you join an Order devoted to slaughtering anyone who voices dissent, then yeah, you're probably Evil... because you chose to join that Order.

It is so sad to see such internalized anti-Hellknight propaganda...

The Order of the Rack has 3 leaders, two of which are Lawful Neutral. The one we know anything about hates Wizards not specifically because they deal in forbidden knowledge or anything, but because they are stealing magic from its rightful users (Sorcerers, like her). When we have gotten stats for generic Rack armigers and Hellknights they have also been Lawful Neutral (in the cases of which I am aware), even ones watching over torture of possible dissidents.

While the name, outfits, and incredibly strict devotion to Law (even when absolutely horrible) can make them seem purely and obviously Evil, even the Order of Booking Burnings and Dissident Torture manages to have piles of Lawful Neutrals in their ranks.

Dark Archive

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Gorbacz wrote:
I don't understand the problem some people have with the very existence of an evil AP.

I have a problem with the over abundance of good APs.

Liberty's Edge

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Rysky wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I don't understand the problem some people have with the very existence of an evil AP.
I have absolutely no problem with an evil AP. I just have no interest in a story where you work for House Thrune, who I despise, against a group that was built up in the previous AP who I happen to like but apparently it was for naught since they were introduced solely to get knocked down.

As has been stated by Paizo in numerous panels and posts. The Glorious Reclamation, the Antagonists from Hell's Vengeance, have nothing to do with the Silver Ravens, The good guy organization the PCs will be running in Hell's Rebels.

This was done specifically so that that one AP would not be undoing the other. Hells Rebels is almost exclusively in Kintargo. Hell's Vengeance NEVER goes to Kintargo.

You appear to be operating under incorrect information.

Silver Crusade

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Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Hellknight #685,340 wrote:
The difference between Orders and their leadership is what will mostly determine this sort of thing. If you join an Order devoted to slaughtering anyone who voices dissent, then yeah, you're probably Evil... because you chose to join that Order.

It is so sad to see such internalized anti-Hellknight propaganda...

The Order of the Rack has 3 leaders, two of which are Lawful Neutral. The one we know anything about hates Wizards not specifically because they deal in forbidden knowledge or anything, but because they are stealing magic from its rightful users (Sorcerers, like her). When we have gotten stats for generic Rack armigers and Hellknights they have also been Lawful Neutral (in the cases of which I am aware), even ones watching over torture of possible dissidents.

While the name, outfits, and incredibly strict devotion to Law (even when absolutely horrible) can make them seem purely and obviously Evil, even the Order of Booking Burnings and Dissident Torture manages to have piles of Lawful Neutrals in their ranks.

If you participate in torture you're evil. Not neutral, evil.

Silver Crusade

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graywulfe wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I don't understand the problem some people have with the very existence of an evil AP.
I have absolutely no problem with an evil AP. I just have no interest in a story where you work for House Thrune, who I despise, against a group that was built up in the previous AP who I happen to like but apparently it was for naught since they were introduced solely to get knocked down.

As has been stated by Paizo in numerous panels and posts. The Glorious Reclamation, the Antagonists from Hell's Vengeance, have nothing to do with the Silver Ravens, The good guy organization the PCs will be running in Hell's Rebels.

This was done specifically so that that one AP would not be undoing the other. Hells Rebels is almost exclusively in Kintargo. Hell's Vengeance NEVER goes to Kintargo.

You appear to be operating under incorrect information.

Um, no. I was talking about the Glorius Reclamation, not the Silver Ravens. My apologies for not specifically naming them in my post.

I like the Silver Ravens too, but they're built up by the actions of the players whereas the Reclaimers are built up in-story.

Liberty's Edge

Rysky wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I don't understand the problem some people have with the very existence of an evil AP.
I have absolutely no problem with an evil AP. I just have no interest in a story where you work for House Thrune, who I despise, against a group that was built up in the previous AP who I happen to like but apparently it was for naught since they were introduced solely to get knocked down.

As has been stated by Paizo in numerous panels and posts. The Glorious Reclamation, the Antagonists from Hell's Vengeance, have nothing to do with the Silver Ravens, The good guy organization the PCs will be running in Hell's Rebels.

This was done specifically so that that one AP would not be undoing the other. Hells Rebels is almost exclusively in Kintargo. Hell's Vengeance NEVER goes to Kintargo.

You appear to be operating under incorrect information.

Um, no. I was talking about the Glorius Reclamation, not the Silver Ravens. My apologies for not specifically naming them in my post.

I like the Silver Ravens too, but they're built up by the actions of the players whereas the Reclaimers are built up in-story.

I have not read that AP, I am only going on what we were told.

Silver Crusade

graywulfe wrote:
Rysky wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I don't understand the problem some people have with the very existence of an evil AP.
I have absolutely no problem with an evil AP. I just have no interest in a story where you work for House Thrune, who I despise, against a group that was built up in the previous AP who I happen to like but apparently it was for naught since they were introduced solely to get knocked down.

As has been stated by Paizo in numerous panels and posts. The Glorious Reclamation, the Antagonists from Hell's Vengeance, have nothing to do with the Silver Ravens, The good guy organization the PCs will be running in Hell's Rebels.

This was done specifically so that that one AP would not be undoing the other. Hells Rebels is almost exclusively in Kintargo. Hell's Vengeance NEVER goes to Kintargo.

You appear to be operating under incorrect information.

Um, no. I was talking about the Glorius Reclamation, not the Silver Ravens. My apologies for not specifically naming them in my post.

I like the Silver Ravens too, but they're built up by the actions of the players whereas the Reclaimers are built up in-story.

I have not read that AP, I am only going on what we were told.

Reading about the GR made me like them a lot. Finding out they were made pretty much to be destroyed in this AP as the designated antagonists made me sad.


Rysky wrote:
If you participate in torture you're evil. Not neutral, evil.

That is fine. Please call up the Order of the Rack armigers in Turn of the Torrent and tell them to correct their character sheets accordingly. Also all the other members I mentioned.

Silver Crusade

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Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Rysky wrote:
If you participate in torture you're evil. Not neutral, evil.
That is fine. Please call up the Order of the Rack armigers in Turn of the Torrent and tell them to correct their character sheets accordingly. Also all the other members I mentioned.

If you torture someone, you're evil. But then all Rackers might not be torturers, moreso for the rank and file shock troops.

Or they're could be a typo. N instead of E is easy enough.

Or maybe they're just that completely f!+$ing broken in the head.

Whatever the reason, if you torture someone. You. Are. Evil.

No matter what organization you might happen to belong to.


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It never ceases to amaze me how easily... even eagerly... people try to cast unrepentant, murderous torturers as anything other than pure evil. It doesn't matter who you torture or why... merely whether you do it. And if you do, you are tainted and evil. Whatever else you are and do. Ticking bombs and other simplistic scenarios designed to prove torture to be good are completely meaningless.

Incidentally, this is why not allowing an administration to start using torture is of paramount importance, because it taints everything it comes in contact with, and gets more and more people to try to look the other way, to explain it away, or issue apologetic screed about it.


I think the issue is a disconnect between the theoretical idea of the Hellknights and the details. In theory, they are supposed to be an incredibly strict Lawful Neutral organization, with a big dose of Lawful Evil members and some Lawful Good ones. The problem is when you get down to what these organizations actually do for many of them it is overwhelmingly horrible.

I'd personally call the armigers guarding brutal torture "evil." I honestly can't think of any published examples of "of the Rack" stuff I wouldn't, personally, consider "evil." They theoretically destroy dangerous magical knowledge, but I can't think of that ever coming up when they appear in modules. Similarly everyone in the Order of the Chain that doesn't exclusively punish the powerful, and even that is in support of the institution of slavery so at very best incredibly questionable (but again, leadership is Lawful Neutral).

However, the game has chosen to depict these as organization with "Lawful Neutral" members and even leaders. So you either recalibrate alignment so that "second in command an organization that executes people for verbal political dissent" (as mentioned in Bastards of Erebus), "leader of slave catchers," or "guards torturers" is "evil" that can be taken part in by "LN" characters, or the idea these people and groups are really Lawful Neutral needs to be abandoned and we need to finally give up and write "LE" on their sheets.

Sidenote: is it possible to unflag a post? I read something wrong, but can't seem to change it.


People also tend to forget that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective.
For game purpose, it is a mechanic that determines certain effects.
In reality...it's not so "clear cut" a concept ;)

Silver Crusade

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nighttree wrote:

People also tend to forget that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective.

For game purpose, it is a mechanic that determines certain effects.
In reality...it's not so "clear cut" a concept ;)

Nope, torture's evil in real life too.

Silver Crusade

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Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
However, the game has chosen to depict these as organization with "Lawful Neutral" members and even leaders. So you either recalibrate alignment so that "second in command an organization that executes people for verbal political dissent" (as mentioned in Bastards of Erebus), "leader of slave catchers," or "guards torturers" is "evil" that can be taken part in by "LN" characters, or the idea these people and groups are really Lawful Neutral needs to be abandoned and we need to finally give up and write "LE" on their sheets.

I've been doing that.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
CWheezy wrote:

Yeah seems pretty LN to me, oh well

it seems like a lot of people think "one evil act > evil, 100 good acts, no alignment change"

For example, she killed a devil, thats probably a good act right

Well, you haven't actually done any particular harm to the devil you killed, since a Hellknight Signifer summoned it for you to fight -- and that Hellknight Signifer did perform an evil act when he summoned it.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
nighttree wrote:

People also tend to forget that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective.

For game purpose, it is a mechanic that determines certain effects.
In reality...it's not so "clear cut" a concept ;)
Nope, torture's evil in real life too.

Torture is an evil act -- but people who are neutral with regard to good and evil can and do occasionally commit evil acts. The question is how much torturing you can do before your alignment shifts to evil.


Rysky wrote:
nighttree wrote:

People also tend to forget that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective.

For game purpose, it is a mechanic that determines certain effects.
In reality...it's not so "clear cut" a concept ;)
Nope, torture's evil in real life too.

In your subjective opinion....an opinion I happen to share...but it is still a subjective opinion non the less.

Silver Crusade

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nighttree wrote:
Rysky wrote:
nighttree wrote:

People also tend to forget that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective.

For game purpose, it is a mechanic that determines certain effects.
In reality...it's not so "clear cut" a concept ;)
Nope, torture's evil in real life too.

In your subjective opinion....an opinion I happen to share...but it is still a subjective opinion non the less.

Again, no. Torture is evil. Full stop.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Rysky wrote:
nighttree wrote:

People also tend to forget that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective.

For game purpose, it is a mechanic that determines certain effects.
In reality...it's not so "clear cut" a concept ;)
Nope, torture's evil in real life too.

In your subjective opinion....an opinion I happen to share...but it is still a subjective opinion non the less.

Again, no. Torture is evil. Full stop.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
Rysky wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Rysky wrote:
nighttree wrote:

People also tend to forget that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective.

For game purpose, it is a mechanic that determines certain effects.
In reality...it's not so "clear cut" a concept ;)
Nope, torture's evil in real life too.

In your subjective opinion....an opinion I happen to share...but it is still a subjective opinion non the less.

Again, no. Torture is evil. Full stop.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

They also deal in torture.


Can you prove to me that torture is lowercase evil in real life? I think it's lowercase good.

Silver Crusade Contributor

4 people marked this as a favorite.
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Can you prove to me that torture is lowercase evil in real life? I think it's lowercase good.

If you think that causing pain and suffering makes you a better person (as "good" implies), then I'm pretty sure your moral compass runs counter to that of most of humanity.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Rysky wrote:
Reading about the [Glorious Reclamation] made me like them a lot. Finding out they were made pretty much to be destroyed in this AP as the designated antagonists made me sad.

To be fair, I'm guessing they wanted a newly made organization so that they didn't have to kill off an existing group with existing fans.

As for the Reclamation, I'm waiting for Hell's Vengeance to see what I think of them. I may replace them with the servants of the up-and-coming paladin deity in my Wrath of the Righteous campaign... we'll have to see.

Silver Crusade

Kalindlara wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Can you prove to me that torture is lowercase evil in real life? I think it's lowercase good.
If you think that causing pain and suffering makes you a better person (as "good" implies), then I'm pretty sure your moral compass runs counter to that of most of humanity.

Ninjaed by Kali.

Silver Crusade

Kalindlara wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Reading about the [Glorious Reclamation] made me like them a lot. Finding out they were made pretty much to be destroyed in this AP as the designated antagonists made me sad.

To be fair, I'm guessing they wanted a newly made organization so that they didn't have to kill off an existing group with existing fans.

As for the Reclamation, I'm waiting for Hell's Vengeance to see what I think of them. I may replace them with the servants of the up-and-coming paladin deity in my Wrath of the Righteous campaign... we'll have to see.

Which is somewhat fair, but what of the already established villains in other APs that players go up against?

I probably wouldn't be having that much of a problem with this development if they only detailed the GR in HV instead of in the AP directly before and other places. They got me to like them. And then they try to make them antagonists.

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