Unchained Skills and Feats

Thursday, April 9, 2015

If classes are the main chassis of a character, skills and feats are its nuts and bolts. When they let us designers loose in Pathfinder Unchained, it's only natural that we wanted to play around with how the nuts and bolts attach, and even try changing the shapes of those nuts and bolts entirely! In Chapters 2 and 3 of Pathfinder Unchained, there are not only several daring subsystems that play with feats, there so many different options for restructuring skills that it's easy to lose yourself in all the possibilities. I've gathered some of the coolest tidbits from all those options to share with you today!

Starting with skills, the three major skills options each serve a different goal.


Illustration by Géraud Soulié

I Need More Skills to Flesh Out My Character
The background skills variant separates out certain skills as background skills as opposed to adventuring skills. It also adds some new background skills to the game, such as Lore, a very specific version of the Knowledge skill. To round it out, everyone gains 2 extra skill points to spend on background skills, no matter your class!

There Are Too Many Skills
The consolidated skills variant serves a somewhat opposite goal, combining current skill functionality into only 12 skills.

Assigning Skill Points Can Be Tough
The grouped skills variant makes it easier to assign skills, speeding up the level-up process. It also gives characters a middle tier of skills that they are pretty good at, rather than most characters having mostly max ranks, 1 rank, or no ranks.

As cool as the skill sections are, the sections involving feats are the showstoppers of today's blog!

Variant Multiclassing
Have you ever wanted to multiclass your character for flavor reasons—maybe pick up some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music one adventure—but then you realized that your character would be pretty significantly handicapped by taking those two levels in bard? It happens all the time, and it requires you to sacrifice something whichever choice you take. With the variant multiclassing option, you can choose a secondary class and trade out half your feats (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) to instead gain a progression of special abilities based on which class you pick. Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too. With variant multiclassing, you can open more combinations than ever before, without delaying your access to your main class's cool new features!

Stamina System
The stamina system offers new powers for every combat feat in the RPG line. Yes, you read that right: it specifically lists every combat feat in the whole line and then grants each feat new powers. Right from the start, the system offers options for you to just give the system to fighters or to give it to all martial characters, depending on your preference. Stamina is a new resource that allows martial characters to boost themselves and use their feats in new and exciting ways. It regenerates relatively quickly between battles, allowing you to enjoy an entirely new mindset to your daily exploration; a party of stamina-users benefits from hit and run guerilla tactics, emphasizing the value of mobility, stealth, and timing (as opposed to the mindset of "buff, buff, buff, speed through!"). Stamina lets you boost your effectiveness or change the rules of the feat in your favor. These special stamina powers are called combat tricks. While I'm sure that the ways to use stamina to boost your effectiveness will be quite popular (like Critical Focus, where under certain conditions, you can increase your critical multiplier, potentially multiple times if you roll high enough), I'm a fan of the combat tricks that let you retroactively apply an effect (like declare a Stunning Fist after you already know your attack connected), and my absolute favorites are the ones that let you trick your opponent through devious tactical play. For instance, the Combat Style Master combat trick allows you to spend stamina to switch your styles as an off-turn free action. So you can lure people into attacking you and then suddenly be in Snake Style before they can even call off the attack! In the same vein, I also really enjoy the combat tricks that let you use your powers when you normally couldn't, since that has two cool psychological effects: not only can it present great "gotcha" moments, but once your enemy knows you can, say, spend stamina to take a second attack of opportunity against them from the same opportunity, it changes the way they view your threat, and it might allow you to control their actions without even spending your stamina!

Tune in next time to learn more about magic—specifically, the new scaling magic items in Pathfinder Unchained that grow with your character!

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
So I feel that the variant multiclassing and the change in how skills work will greatly help the fighter. The fighter gets so many feats that it's kinda easy to do the variant multiclassing, which can be taken for unique out of combat tools. And then the skills will either make his points go further or he'll get creative in is flavor skills.
You've picked up on a subtle underlying principle: Giving everyone more skill points helps the fighter most because it has fewer, and gaining a flat amount is comparatively better for the one with fewest. Similarly, spending feats for awesome stuff helps the fighter most because he has most and thus loses the least. So while the stamina system may have been the one everyone knew about before the blog, there are many different ways to give cool things for fighters ;)

Now people won't be able to say that the martial classes can't have nice things. :)

Designer

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knightnday wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
So I feel that the variant multiclassing and the change in how skills work will greatly help the fighter. The fighter gets so many feats that it's kinda easy to do the variant multiclassing, which can be taken for unique out of combat tools. And then the skills will either make his points go further or he'll get creative in is flavor skills.
You've picked up on a subtle underlying principle: Giving everyone more skill points helps the fighter most because it has fewer, and gaining a flat amount is comparatively better for the one with fewest. Similarly, spending feats for awesome stuff helps the fighter most because he has most and thus loses the least. So while the stamina system may have been the one everyone knew about before the blog, there are many different ways to give cool things for fighters ;)
Now people won't be able to say that the martial classes can't have nice things. :)

I like to think I'm optimistic about Unchained, but you, my friend, are even more optimistic than I am.


Variant multi-classing sounds cool. Like gestalt, but not. Nice. Hopefully my cleric will not have to level-dip wizard to become an awesome mystic theurge or my wizard will not have to level-dip cleric to become an awesome mystic theurge.
Hopefully my paladin can conceivably become a mystic theurge.
Hopefully my fighter (wizard) will not have to level-dip wizard (fighter) to become an awesome eldritch knight.
Hopefully my monk will not have to level-dip sorcerer to become an awesome dragon disciple.

And background skills sound cool too. Traits arguably do this as well by adding [skill] as a class skill and the +2 bonus. Shadowrun does something like this too, though the background skills were a separate list from other skills. I could see PFS Day jobs coming from background skills excepting massive changes to current Day Job system.

Stamina sounds cool, but the rest-to-get-it back doesn't. I liked the way Champs handled 'daily' use of abilities, which this might mimic. Yeah! I already think wands relieve characters of some of the dangers of adventuring, and a new [power] that resets so quickly will exacerbate that. However, if it easy enough to implement every goblin in my game will be using it :)


>only 12 skills
>multiclass without breaking advancement
>martials with expendable resources
>is dis 4e


Jucassaba wrote:

>only 12 skills

>multiclass without breaking advancement
>martials with expendable resources
>is dis 4e

? Martials have always had expendable resources in the form of x/day rogue talents and feats. It's just that now they are (hopefully) getting some expendable resources that aren't total garbage.


This is much more interesting than I had hoped for. I'm just missing one thing. Some way to have to worry about less feats as a fighter.

My ideal situation would be if you could use stamina to temporarily gain the benefit of feats you don't already have. This would give fighters greater flexibility in feat selection.

Designer

Ganryu wrote:

This is much more interesting than I had hoped for. I'm just missing one thing. Some way to have to worry about less feats as a fighter.

My ideal situation would be if you could use stamina to temporarily gain the benefit of feats you don't already have. This would give fighters greater flexibility in feat selection.

That's sort of the brawler class in a nutshell, but if your group wants to add that to stamina as a special fighter-only power? Sounds awesome! Unchained is the design team bringing you into the toolbox where we have all our tools and challenging you to come up with the coolest new variants your game has seen so far. Keep 'em coming!

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You know, if this ends up being as popular as I hope it does maybe we could see periodic updates for new classes and such in the other product lines?

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Since a frighteningly large percentage of my characters are multi-classed Rogue/Ninja plus Full Caster going into Arcane Trickster, I am *very* excited about the variant multi-classing rules.

And no longer unhappy there wasn't a magical rogue hybrid in the ACG.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I also wonder if there will be a book in the Player Companion line -- similar to Advance Class Origins -- which will Unchain some of the things that appeared outside of the RPG line. (Like all those *other* Combat Feats.)

Probably depends on how PU sells. <crosses fingers>

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Let me just say I'm really excited about this book.

I can't wait to play with all of these new rules.


*hangs upside down, looks in the mirror, squints real hard*

Nope, still no way to make Dimensional Dervish a good choice.


I dunno, being able to attack and flank everything in a rather large area (With Dimensional Savant, of course), and then DIVE KIC... I mean flying kicking somebody 30-60 feet away at the end of it....


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I can see myself imitating Paul Hogan (Crocodile Dundee) here:

::Looks disdainfully at last week's preview ::

"That isn't a preview."

::Holds up this week's preview::

"THIS is a preview!"

This preview really has me excited.

It also gives an example of the problems raised by people talking about this book as though it presented a single coherent system. If somebody suggess, for example, "Let's use the Pathfinder Unchained skill rules", we already know enough to ask the question, "Which ones?" (Of course, nobody who is free to answer knows enough to provide a full answer to this question.)


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In before Combat Expertise's combat trick is shooting dragons out of your hands.


Well, that all depends. Are we talking wyrmlings, young dragons, adult dragons, mature dragons, ancients dragons, wyrms, great wyrms? That doesn't even begin to answer the other question of what type? Red, blue, gold, silver, shadow, green, black, etc. etc?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Secret Wizard wrote:
In before Combat Expertise's combat trick is shooting dragons out of your hands.

I LOLed at this one. Well done, sir or madam. *bows*


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I suppose the combat trick for Skill Focus (Swim) is shooting fricking laser beams from your head, correct? (Sorry, couldn't resist the Austin Powers/Doctor Evil joke)


Wait a minute....slashimg grace and barroom brawler would be getting stamina versions then?!? Yay!


Trying to imagine the stamina power for all the Pummeling Style feats. This will be fun to see.


Adam B. 135 wrote:
Trying to imagine the stamina power for all the Pummeling Style feats. This will be fun to see.

I know right! ANY style possibilities excite me here.


I really like the sound of the stamina system, background skills, and alternate multi-classing rules.


christos gurd wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
Trying to imagine the stamina power for all the Pummeling Style feats. This will be fun to see.
I know right! ANY style possibilities excite me here.

Flying Hokuto Shinken Flurry of Blows. You are already dead.

Though seriously, I wanna know what kind of crazy things I'll get access to with Panther, Turtle, Dragon, and many other styles. Probably Panther the most though. It was my favorite before.


10 cyber cookies says that Stamina system Crane Style is basically pre-errata Crane Style. Spend fatigue to auto-block an attack when you use Crane Wing.


Dragon Style!

You literally turn into a Dragon.


My my..

You know when people use the phrase "jaw dropping" when the thing they saw wasn't even close?

Well I literally finished reading that blog post and my mouth was hanging open...

So. Many. Ideas.

I wonder if either the variant multiclassing or the stamina system will make it into PFS?
I hope so or I'll have to start up a non PFS game some how and maybe cut back on my PFS (which is the only roleplaying I get to play nowadays).


I would like to see a variant spell system similar to what they did in D&D 5th Edition. That was the only part of that system that I really liked. It's sooooo good.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

This preview actually got me to subscribe so that I can see the PDF of this book a little sooner.


David knott 242 wrote:

This preview actually got me to subscribe so that I can see the PDF of this book a little sooner.

Whenever it ships.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I've said repeatedly that you can't fix the fighter, and likely the rogue, without fixing feats.

Let's see if they include some anti-magic options for the most non-magical class in the game.

I admit to being excited to see all the feat revisions, and still afraid they are going to drop the ball on the rogue and fighter class chassis themselves.

we shall see!

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:

I've said repeatedly that you can't fix the fighter, and likely the rogue, without fixing feats.

Let's see if they include some anti-magic options for the most non-magical class in the game.

I admit to being excited to see all the feat revisions, and still afraid they are going to drop the ball on the rogue and fighter class chassis themselves.

we shall see!

==Aelryinth

The new multiclassing helps fighters a lot, so I'd say they may be one of the strongest multiclassers available.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

I've said repeatedly that you can't fix the fighter, and likely the rogue, without fixing feats.

Let's see if they include some anti-magic options for the most non-magical class in the game.

I admit to being excited to see all the feat revisions, and still afraid they are going to drop the ball on the rogue and fighter class chassis themselves.

we shall see!

==Aelryinth

The new multiclassing helps fighters a lot, so I'd say they may be one of the strongest multiclassers available.

Yes, losing 1/2 your base feats stings a LOT less when you're getting lots of bonus ones.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Truthfully, I don't care about multi-classing rules.
While it would be nice to give a non-caster class a default spellcaster level advance like they get BAB, it's secondary.

the fighter has fewer class features then any other class.
It gets bonus combat feats, which it must qualify for with stats. Pretty much every other class that gets bonus feats gets them regardless. Especially the ranger. Which is totally embarrassing.

The fighter gets bravery, weapon training and armor training. That's 3 features.
It gets armor movement. That's 1.
It gets a false armor capstone at 19 (suddenly DR enters the equation at level 19?), and a false weapon training capstone at 20 (because the capstone applies to a weapon, not a weapon class). That's 2 more.

So, 6 class features. Only 3 of them scale, and one of them (Bravery) is basically worthless.
Combat feats are half the strength of class features, don't scale, and must be qualified for. UGH.

We'll see if they change things. But since they have never mentioned actually changing/updating the fighter CLASS...I have my doubts.
The fighter's problem has never been his combat and damage output. it's been his versatility, his defenses, and his movement.
Basically NONE of those are covered by combat feats.
So, I don't have high hopes. Makinig the combat feats powerful is nice, but all it makes him is even more of a glass cannon.

relying on other classes to actually be strong/versatile is a cop-out. We'll see what shakes out, I guess.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

knightnday wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
So I feel that the variant multiclassing and the change in how skills work will greatly help the fighter. The fighter gets so many feats that it's kinda easy to do the variant multiclassing, which can be taken for unique out of combat tools. And then the skills will either make his points go further or he'll get creative in is flavor skills.
You've picked up on a subtle underlying principle: Giving everyone more skill points helps the fighter most because it has fewer, and gaining a flat amount is comparatively better for the one with fewest. Similarly, spending feats for awesome stuff helps the fighter most because he has most and thus loses the least. So while the stamina system may have been the one everyone knew about before the blog, there are many different ways to give cool things for fighters ;)
Now people won't be able to say that the martial classes can't have nice things. :)

Well, if you use multiclassing to pick up spellcasting ... you aren't exactly a martial character any more...^^ So no worries.... I might have to reduce the rogue bashing a fair bit.

Sovereign Court

classes that get bonus feats or who can live with fewer feats (classic support cleric) are going to benefit a lot from multiclassing. I can already see support cleric grabbing favored enemies (Undead) and (Evil Outsiders) to be the classic cleric which kills undead without actually losing much. (Selective channeling, Sacred Summons is frankly all you need on a basic support cleric.)


Eltacolibre wrote:
classes that get bonus feats or who can live with fewer feats (classic support cleric) are going to benefit a lot from multiclassing. I can already see support cleric grabbing favored enemies (Undead) and (Evil Outsiders) to be the classic cleric which kills undead without actually losing much. (Selective channeling, Sacred Summons is frankly all you need on a basic support cleric.)

now we dont know what the options are yet, but if any are rage powers...probably can call the fighter fixed.

Sovereign Court

actually seems like they pretty much said that rage is an option:

Quote:


Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too.


I have a question regarding the variant multiclassing..

Let's say you're playing a barbarian and at first level I opt for the variant multiclass thing into.. I dunno, Druid.

Can I swap my "multiclass" class choice, or opt out of multiclassing entirely?

Let's say I make it to 7th level as a barbarian (Druid). Can I swap my Druid option to ranger (keeping the druid progression to level 6 and starting the ranger one from level 1), or ditch the multiclass all together and just take my bonus feat instead?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'm excited for this!

My initial impression is that variant multiclassing will be stronger for casters than martials, because they have fewer necessary feats. 2handers can get away with it, but everything else is pretty intensive.

Meanwhile, a wizard can snag hexes without really missing out on anything.

Question: Will Stamina be a closed system, or will we see new content (feats/archetypes/rabbits that affect stamina) for it as well?


Apocryphile wrote:

I have a question regarding the variant multiclassing..

Let's say you're playing a barbarian and at first level I opt for the variant multiclass thing into.. I dunno, Druid.

Can I swap my "multiclass" class choice, or opt out of multiclassing entirely?

Let's say I make it to 7th level as a barbarian (Druid). Can I swap my Druid option to ranger (keeping the druid progression to level 6 and starting the ranger one from level 1), or ditch the multiclass all together and just take my bonus feat instead?

It was pretty much said up thread that it was all or nothing.


The more I think about this variant multiclassing the more I like it. I love playing multiclass characters, so this will definitely scratch this itch..

Will you be able to multiclass, and use this as well?? That'd be awesome!

Designer

Apocryphile wrote:

I have a question regarding the variant multiclassing..

Let's say you're playing a barbarian and at first level I opt for the variant multiclass thing into.. I dunno, Druid.

Can I swap my "multiclass" class choice, or opt out of multiclassing entirely?

Let's say I make it to 7th level as a barbarian (Druid). Can I swap my Druid option to ranger (keeping the druid progression to level 6 and starting the ranger one from level 1), or ditch the multiclass all together and just take my bonus feat instead?

As mentioned earlier, it's an all-in kind of thing, kind of like an archetype that your character takes that trade out some of the character progression abilities for others...at least by default. In Unchained, the answer to a question is almost never "No," since we give you the tools to build all sorts of different variants, so if you tinker with the default settings and come up with an even more mix-and-match version that your group loves, then rock on! I'd love to hear about it.

Sovereign Court

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Lancer fighter with Ninja tricks...dragoons are coming.


Eltacolibre wrote:

actually seems like they pretty much said that rage is an option:

Quote:


Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too.

rage was confirmed, rage powers weren't. Although they would make sense to out the progression.

Dark Archive

This makes me so happy, I love background stuff(I spend half my character creation writing the background) so those background skills sound like everything I've wanted from the skill system. Multi-class stuff makes me drool with possibilities... Just imagine with me for a second: You are the new monk(who is totally radsauce) and you think you're cool with your kung-fu and your stamina flips, but then you realize you can give up a bunch of feats to be a ninja/monk and you realize you have all the wicked sick jumps in the world so you just flying kick that dragon out of the sky.


I wonder if this will offer a way to allow spellcasters to multiclass into other spellcasting classes, without losing as much as they do now...


Mark Seifter wrote:

As mentioned earlier, it's an all-in kind of thing, kind of like an archetype that your character takes that trade out some of the character progression abilities for others...at least by default. In Unchained, the answer to a question is almost never "No," since we give you the tools to build all sorts of different variants, so if you tinker with the default settings and come up with an even more mix-and-match version that your group loves, then rock on! I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks for the reply Mark. Even if you're locked in, it still sounds great.

How would retraining work with this? If you're 7th level would that be the equivalent of retraining two feats?


The variant multiclassing really does sound great for Fighters. The extra skill points to flesh out a PC also appeals to me. One of my current PCs is a Viking. Despite his 12 Int, Captain Arnvarg wasn't wise and skilled enough to use a rowboat while taking a 10, so he had to swim out to his ship in armor. When he got there he could barely sail the darned thing since he was only able to afford a few ranks in Profession (Sailor). No wonder the poor guy flies into a Rage a lot. Soon maybe he'll actually be good at things one might expect Vikings to be good at!


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1) Will there be new character sheets to represent the skill changes?

2) I assume the variant multiclassing system will cover only the core classes. Or will it be all of them?

3) I notice that a lot of archetypes are designed by taking features from other classes that the vanilla class doesn't have. Will the variant multiclassing make some of these irrelevant?


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Thinking on the Variant Multiclassing a bit more. This is of course based off what little we have been told mind you.

Wiz + Cler = Mystic Theurge
Rog + Wiz/Sor = Arcane Trickster
Ftr + Wiz/Sor = Eldritch Knight (Third Type)
Ftr. + Wtch = Hexblade
Monk + Wiz/Sor = Arcane Fist (or Dragon Ball Z character)
Monk + Cler = Enlightened Fist
Cav/Ftr + Cleric = Holy Warrior/Warpriest/ "Any Alignment Paladin"
.... Gunslinger + Wiz/Sor = Spellslinger

Also, "Class of Choice" + Oracle = Basic Demigod before mythic is added.

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