Inner Sea Gods: Divine Servitors

Mikaze wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

I think someone (possibly even you, James) once said that Rovagug's to-do list looked something like:

1) Escape
2) Destroy everything between self and Sarenrae
3) Murder Sarenrae
4) Destroy rest of multiverse

"Destroy everything" might be a simplistic plan, but it will certainly get all the mortals, as well as all the demons and anything else that might have been an obstacle.

I find it a bit funny that CE Demons seem way less destructive than CN Proteans and NE Daemons.

I dig it. Demons are slaves to their passions, and they love having victims. They wouldn't want to lose their toys. In their own twisted way, they need us. They can't quit us.

And Proteans...at least they're more about unraveling stuff just so it can be woven into something else. They don't want to see you removed from the universe, they just want you to stop being the same old pattern day after day...

But yeah, daemons? Man, screw those guys. Seriously. They're the worst.

The worst.

(ie: Good job making the oft-ignored NE fiends the most despicable villains of the setting, Paizo. ;) )

I agree, Mikaze. They do come across as the most nightmarish of the three major fiend groups. But there's a bit of a wrinkle in that.

1) Of all the petitioners in the evil-aligned realms, it seems like those in Abaddon suffer for the least amount of time. Devils torment their victims over eons, demons turn you into a horrible maggot, and Daemons just go om nom nom.

2) They're quite clearly the weakest of the three main fiend factions. The Abyss has a ton of demon lords, and each of the four horsemen is comparable in power to one of them.

3) I don't know about you, but I think you'd have to be Too Dumb to Live to even consider worshiping a horseman or harbinger.

They may have only the 4 Horsemen, but they were able to fight off Lamashtu when she invaded.

Keep in mind, what the Daemon's lack in numbers, they can make up for in economics (soul trade) and coordination. The Daemon's don't have to worry as much about the backstabbing and political maneuvers the Devils do, nor do they have to worry about the infighting and chaos the Demons exhibit.

Plus, the threat of the Oinodaemon is something that cannot be ignored. We really know nothing about the Oinodaemon, but we do know that who, or what, ever the Oinodaemon is, it scares the **** out of the Horsemen. Also, if I recall, simply being on Abaddon is hazardous, much like the Negative or Positive Energy planes, and that beings not of Abaddon will slowly be killed by the waters of Abaddon itself. Well, not so much 'killed' as much as being reduced to the soul energies of your being, which feeds into the wealth and power of the daemons itself.

Fighting the Daemons is much like humans armies fighting undead armies; every dead human becomes another undead soldier. So every being that dies on Abaddon only fuels the might of the Daemons.

1) Of all the petitioners in the evil-aligned realms, it seems like those in Abaddon suffer for the least amount of time. Devils torment their victims over eons, demons turn you into a horrible maggot, and Daemons just go om nom nom.

I find total cessation of existence to be the most horrible thing possible.

Axial wrote:

1) Of all the petitioners in the evil-aligned realms, it seems like those in Abaddon suffer for the least amount of time. Devils torment their victims over eons, demons turn you into a horrible maggot, and Daemons just go om nom nom.

I find total cessation of existence to be the most horrible thing possible.

Interesting, because I on the other hand see the eternal peace of oblivion to be a very calming state and end.

I find total cessation of existence to be the most horrible thing possible.

It's a personal taste thing, of sorts. I find the idea of annihilation sort of comforting, but infinity doing just about anything sounds awful.

Most visions of the Upper Planes head quickly into "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" territory for me. At least the Lower Planes are supposed to suck.

Cheers!
Landon

Qlippoth: The new wave religion for every Chelaxian teen wanting to get back at mom and dad.

Apsaras! YAY! I wasn't expecting to see those for Golarion anytime soon, to be honest, so this is a very nice surprise. I'll make sure to get that PDF as soon as it's out!

Now I only need to see Golarion-Gandharvas and Golarion-Ananta-Shesha to die happy.

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I find total cessation of existence to be the most horrible thing possible.

It's a personal taste thing, of sorts. I find the idea of annihilation sort of comforting, but infinity doing just about anything sounds awful.

Most visions of the Upper Planes head quickly into "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" territory for me. At least the Lower Planes are supposed to suck.

Cheers!
Landon

Relevant

They may have only the 4 Horsemen, but they were able to fight off Lamashtu when she invaded.

Keep in mind, what the Daemon's lack in numbers, they can make up for in economics (soul trade) and coordination. The Daemon's don't have to worry as much about the backstabbing and political maneuvers the Devils do, nor do they have to worry about the infighting and chaos the Demons exhibit.

Plus, the threat of the Oinodaemon is something that cannot be ignored. We really know nothing about the Oinodaemon, but we do know that who, or what, ever the Oinodaemon is, it scares the **** out of the Horsemen. Also, if I recall, simply being on Abaddon is hazardous, much like the Negative or Positive Energy planes, and that beings not of Abaddon will slowly be killed by the waters of Abaddon itself. Well, not so much 'killed' as much as being reduced to the soul energies of your being, which feeds into the wealth and power of the daemons itself.

Fighting the Daemons is much like humans armies fighting undead armies; every dead human becomes another undead soldier. So every being that dies on Abaddon only fuels the might of the Daemons.

I want some more on the daemon, The Four Horseman, and escpecially the Oiondaemon. I want these things so badly.

2) They're quite clearly the weakest of the three main fiend factions. The Abyss has a ton of demon lords, and each of the four horsemen is comparable in power to one of them.

...Except maybe Charon. His deal is a little more complicated. I might consider him to be something like Hastur in Bestiary 4, with his Connection to the river Styx.

Also, that Oinodaemon Headcanon is definitely possible and pretty neat.

Ross Byers wrote:

The NPC wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

The daemons are the only planar powers who want to be the last ones to turn the lights off on the universe. Dark and quiet for all eternity.

Except maybe Groetus. But who knows what he wants?

A hug?

I'm not sure how to investigate that in a way that does not risk causing the end of the multiverse.

did you try opening your arms in a welcoming fashion?

Do you really wanna give a falling moon a motion that says "I'll catch you!"?

Landon Winkler wrote:

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I find total cessation of existence to be the most horrible thing possible.

It's a personal taste thing, of sorts. I find the idea of annihilation sort of comforting, but infinity doing just about anything sounds awful.

Most visions of the Upper Planes head quickly into "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" territory for me. At least the Lower Planes are supposed to suck.

Cheers!
Landon

Relevant

:)

I'm in the same boat as EvilMidnightLurker, along with some of the thoughts that went into that speech.

While some might interpret what the daemons do as the most merciful of fates to be found on the Lower Planes, to me it's the worst. Because no matter how terrible existence may become in Hell or the Abyss, whether you're some demon's chewtoy or just another brick in the wall of Dis, there is still, no matter how small, hope. Risen fiends are just one of hte proof of concepts for this. There is still that chance, and spread out across eons, some of thsoe small chances become inevitablities. Even the Upper Planes abhor final states, where souls from petitioners to gods eventually grow and evolve and become something different and sometimes move on to higher and stranger vistas.

Daemons, as presented at least, destroy that hope in their own selfish cosmic suicide attempt. Even when it was just the devourers and demiliches engaging in that sort of thing as a standard M.O., I always considered the destruction of souls to be the unforgivable sin in fantasyland. That daemonkind in the Pathfinderverse have actually institutionalized that puts them at the absolute top of my Cosmic Hitlist.

I would rather be crushed into living mortar or brick in Hell or merged into the Abyss' screaming landscape with even a chance of salvation than become nothing. I would rather be trapped under a kyton's knife or enslaved by efreeti than have any possibility for a future of any kind taken away. I'd simply rather be. Even if that means enduring the unthinkable, for the sake of the me that I would become beyond all that.

And being a bit of an Origenist at heart, I do find what the daemons do to be anathema to me. If I were to run a Mythic-Beyond-Mythic campaign involving actually killing an evil plane, it would definitely be Abaddon.

Hell, the heroes would probably be expected to rip it inside-out, undoing oblivion itself....

christos gurd wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

The NPC wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

The daemons are the only planar powers who want to be the last ones to turn the lights off on the universe. Dark and quiet for all eternity.

Except maybe Groetus. But who knows what he wants?

A hug?

I'm not sure how to investigate that in a way that does not risk causing the end of the multiverse.

did you try opening your arms in a welcoming fashion?

Do you really wanna give a falling moon a motion that says "I'll catch you!"?

Kinda worked in Majora's Mask didn't it? :)

granted it was a bunch of giants doing it IIRC...

SAMAS wrote:

christos gurd wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

The NPC wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

The daemons are the only planar powers who want to be the last ones to turn the lights off on the universe. Dark and quiet for all eternity.

Except maybe Groetus. But who knows what he wants?

A hug?

I'm not sure how to investigate that in a way that does not risk causing the end of the multiverse.

did you try opening your arms in a welcoming fashion?

Do you really wanna give a falling moon a motion that says "I'll catch you!"?

Kinda worked in Majora's Mask didn't it? :)

granted it was a bunch of giants doing it IIRC...

Hmmm, this gives me an idea for an experiment. Tell Groetus to stay where Its at; I'll be right back... I'm gonna go get a Chewbacca.

Mikaze wrote:

SAMAS wrote:

christos gurd wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

The NPC wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

The daemons are the only planar powers who want to be the last ones to turn the lights off on the universe. Dark and quiet for all eternity.

Except maybe Groetus. But who knows what he wants?

A hug?

I'm not sure how to investigate that in a way that does not risk causing the end of the multiverse.

did you try opening your arms in a welcoming fashion?

Do you really wanna give a falling moon a motion that says "I'll catch you!"?

Kinda worked in Majora's Mask didn't it? :)

granted it was a bunch of giants doing it IIRC...

Hmmm, this gives me an idea for an experiment. Tell Groetus to stay where Its at; I'll be right back... I'm gonna go get a Chewbacca.

That somehow straddles the line between @#$%ing awesome and TOO SOON.

You know, one of the things about the daemons though is how technologically advanced they are versus the other plains. The only one that could probably outdo them is Axis, but really, the daemons have it on everyone else. Alchemy, world ender machines, genocide machines, weapons to tempt, corrupt, and destroy mortals from within, all of it. Despite the fact that they're so omnicidal, or perhaps because of it, they're really industrious.

Mikaze, have you read Niven's version of Inferno?

And being a bit of an Origenist at heart, I do find what the daemons do to be anathema to me. If I were to run a Mythic-Beyond-Mythic campaign involving actually killing an evil plane, it would definitely be Abaddon.

Hell, the heroes would probably be expected to rip it inside-out, undoing oblivion itself...

Better yet, that would be an act of mercy. All Abaddon and it's Daemons wish for is the cessation of their existence. Just give it to them.

Mikaze wrote:

And being a bit of an Origenist at heart, I do find what the daemons do to be anathema to me. If I were to run a Mythic-Beyond-Mythic campaign involving actually killing an evil plane, it would definitely be Abaddon.

Hell, the heroes would probably be expected to rip it inside-out, undoing oblivion itself...

Better yet, that would be an act of mercy. All Abaddon and it's Daemons wish for is the cessation of their existence. Just give it to them.

They aren't suicidal: they're omnicidal. They won't be happy with non-existence unless they take the rest of the universe with them.

Patrick C. wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

And being a bit of an Origenist at heart, I do find what the daemons do to be anathema to me. If I were to run a Mythic-Beyond-Mythic campaign involving actually killing an evil plane, it would definitely be Abaddon.

Hell, the heroes would probably be expected to rip it inside-out, undoing oblivion itself...

Better yet, that would be an act of mercy. All Abaddon and it's Daemons wish for is the cessation of their existence. Just give it to them.

They aren't suicidal: they're omnicidal. They won't be happy with non-existence unless they take the rest of the universe with them.

Will they care for that once they're obliterated, tough?

By definition, no. I'm just saying that being wiped out is not "giving them what they want".

Mikaze, have you read Niven's version of Inferno?

I've never read it but I know of it. A couple of folks have recommended it and it's been on my to-check-out list for a while. I've heard I'd be interested. :)

I'm a bit worried that reading it now would have me carrying some imagery over from Wayne Barlowe's Inferno/God's Demon*, which might color it a bit differently from what was intended.

*Hot damn, Wayne. Thanks for the nightmares.** Please never collaborate with Giger, ever. D:

**Like Hieronymous Bosch with less whimsy and more body horror...

It's pretty good if you like Niven: It takes his typical 'space tourist' type protagonist (which is also an author avatar in this case, and specifically of him and not co-author Jerry Pournelle) and runs him through Dante's Inferno.

But specifically, I'm referring to the ending, where the protagonists figures out how and why Hell can exist in the same universe as an omnipotent, benevolent God. It's much what you posted, that even in Hell there is hope, and given eternity, everyone will make it to Heaven eventually.

I've never read it but I know of it. A couple of folks have recommended it and it's been on my to-check-out list for a while. I've heard I'd be interested. :)

I'm a bit worried that reading it now would have me carrying some imagery over from Wayne Barlowe's Inferno/God's Demon*, which might color it a bit differently from what was intended.

*Hot damn, Wayne. Thanks for the nightmares.** Please never collaborate with Giger, ever. D:

**Like Hieronymous Bosch with less whimsy and more body horror...

I now feel compelled to check out this Wayne Barlowe fellow's work... Know that if it keeps me from sleeping any more than is normal for me, it's on your head Mikaze!

Seriously though, love me some body horror. It's one of the few things that can be relied upon to mess with my head and provoke fear responses, though not so much if it's supernatural body horror. Stuff like Martyrs though... *shudders*

I now feel compelled to check out this Wayne Barlowe fellow's work... Know that if it keeps me from sleeping any more than is normal for me, it's on your head Mikaze!

In addition to all that, Mr. Barlowe was the head kaiju designer on Pacific Rim.

(He also did the designs for an obscure late-eighties toy line called Power Lords.)

It's pretty good if you like Niven: It takes his typical 'space tourist' type protagonist (which is also an author avatar in this case, and specifically of him and not co-author Jerry Pournelle) and runs him through Dante's Inferno.

But specifically, I'm referring to the ending, where the protagonists figures out how and why Hell can exist in the same universe as an omnipotent, benevolent God. It's much what you posted, that even in Hell there is hope, and given eternity, everyone will make it to Heaven eventually.

Thanks for the info!

That honestly clicks pretty tightly in line with my actual relgious beliefs. Really going to have to check that out and see his take on it.

It also bleeds through with certain takes I'd like to run with in fantasy games. ;)

It also reminds me of one of my favorite quotes(and accompanying implications) from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman, which ran in a similar yet slightly different take...

Lucifer: Why do they blame me for all their little failings? They use my name as if I spend my entire day sitting on their shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive. 'The Devil made me do it.' I have never made one of them do anything. Never. They live their own tiny lives. I do not live their lives for them. --- And then they die, and they come here having to transgressed against what they believed to be right, and expect us to fulfill their desire for pain and retribution. I don't make them come here. They talk of me going around and buying souls, like a fishwife come market day, never stopping to ask themselves why. I need no souls. And how can anyone own a soul? No. They belong to themselves...they just hate to face up to it.

I now feel compelled to check out this Wayne Barlowe fellow's work... Know that if it keeps me from sleeping any more than is normal for me, it's on your head Mikaze!

Seriously though, love me some body horror. It's one of the few things that can be relied upon to mess with my head and provoke fear responses, though not so much if it's supernatural body horror. Stuff like Martyrs though... *shudders*

I'd link to some specific examples, but I absolutely am not looking that up at work. D:

;)

To clarify though, Inferno is the artbook, God's Demon is his novel. And I believe there's one more artbook in the equation. Brushfire?

(He also did the designs for an obscure late-eighties toy line called Power Lords.)

can never unsee

Hey, Power Lords were awesome! I had all of them :D

In addition to all that, Mr. Barlowe was the head kaiju designer on Pacific Rim.

(He also did the designs for an obscure late-eighties toy line called Power Lords.)

How did I not know about the Kaiju kaiju design! He already has all my love!

It also reminds me of one of my favorite quotes(and accompanying implications) from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman, which ran in a similar yet slightly different take...

Lucifer: Why do they blame me for all their little failings? They use my name as if I spend my entire day sitting on their shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive. 'The Devil made me do it.' I have never made one of them do anything. Never. They live their own tiny lives. I do not live their lives for them. --- And then they die, and they come here having to transgressed against what they believed to be right, and expect us to fulfill their desire for pain and retribution. I don't make them come here. They talk of me going around and buying souls, like a fishwife come market day, never stopping to ask themselves why. I need no souls. And how can anyone own a soul? No. They belong to themselves...they just hate to face up to it.

I love Gaiman's take on Lucifer, and the spin-off graphic novel series that he received was brilliant too.

Another really interesting portrayal of Lucifer, if you haven't read it already, is Glen Duncan's novel 'I, Lucifer'. It's about Lucifer being offered a second chance at Heaven, if he can live a sinless month in the body of a failed mortal author who attempted to take his own life (basically God takes his soul into Heaven, and heals the body to allow Lucifer to inhabit it). Lucifer thinks it's a laugh and treats it as a holiday, using his knowledge and powers to become an overnight success, publishing books, getting movie deals, and getting his demons to influence the stock market and so on so he can get rich and powerful...

I won't spoil any more of it, but it goes into a pretty fascinating discussion of why he chooses to throw the chance of redemption away for a month of fun, and why exactly he feels it's better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven.

Glen Duncan actually writes some pretty interesting novels. Weathercock is another really good one, as is Death of an Ordinary Man (kind of a similar concept to The Lovely Bones if you're familiar with that, the narrator is a man who has died and is basically haunting his family unnoticed, trying to understand what happened to him).

arggghhh mikaze beat me to the majoras mask reference, thats what i get for forgetting about this.

I want some more on the daemon, The Four Horseman, and escpecially the Oiondaemon. I want these things so badly.

You really want more despair-inducing, heart-numbing, daemon-fueled horror to kill and devour your PCs?

... I could totally get on board that crazy train. >:D

Hell, the heroes would probably be expected to rip it inside-out, undoing oblivion itself....

Spoiler:

...and leaving only a desoloate Gray Waste where the black hole of Abaddon once stood. And somewhere in that Waste a baernoloth would appear, coldly considering the turn of events as simply being the next step in their grand experiment to turn all of reality into a negativity well reflecting their own empty souls. Those damned tricky horse-faced bastards.

>:)

... and I still want some more info/stats on those Baernoloths. Were they only ever mentioned in passing during the various versions of Planescape/the Great Wheel, or is there some resource out there with more information?

... and I still want some more info/stats on those Baernoloths. Were they only ever mentioned in passing during the various versions of Planescape/the Great Wheel, or is there some resource out there with more information?

2e 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends', 'Hellbound: The Blood War', and 'Planes of Conflict'

3.x has some scattered references to them in Fiendish Codex I, and some Demonomicon and other pieces in Dragon/Dungeon.

And a metric ton of fan-fic by myself. ;)

But back to Pathfinder.

Relevant to talk about baernoloths...

Relevant to talk about baernoloths...

Man, you know Facebook has hit peak when even the fiends are on there... makes it easier for their cultists to find them at least... so, yay? I think? Is that a good thing? I don't even know any more...

*grumbles* Too early for this... can't even get my morning coffee and get to work before the fiends show up these days.

I was under the impression that this book would have rules on creating a deity's herald. It appears I am mistaken and I'm a little disappointed that I misunderstood this blog post. Does Paizo have any suggestions or guidelines that I'm overlooking outside of 'Appendix 1: Monster Creation' of Pathfinder RPG Bestiary?

Thanks!

I was under the impression that this book would have rules on creating a deity's herald. It appears I am mistaken and I'm a little disappointed that I misunderstood this blog post. Does Paizo have any suggestions or guidelines that I'm overlooking outside of 'Appendix 1: Monster Creation' of Pathfinder RPG Bestiary?

Thanks!

They're CR 15, 18 Hit Die Outsiders, for the most part. Beyond that...not really, no.

If we are pitching books that deal with hell/Lucifer, I can recommend the Bobby Dollar series by Tad Williams. The second book chronicles the titular angel's trip to Hell to find his girlfriend, and has some pretty brilliant descriptions of the different levels. Actually the whole things is pretty interesting in how it envisions a fantasy cosmology based on Old Testament angels, demons, and the afterlife.

Relevant to talk about baernoloths...

*chuckle* When I first heard the story about that figurine being the inspiration for them, so much amusement :D

... and I still want some more info/stats on those Baernoloths. Were they only ever mentioned in passing during the various versions of Planescape/the Great Wheel, or is there some resource out there with more information?

2e 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends', 'Hellbound: The Blood War', and 'Planes of Conflict'

3.x has some scattered references to them in Fiendish Codex I, and some Demonomicon and other pieces in Dragon/Dungeon.

And a metric ton of fan-fic by myself. ;)

But back to Pathfinder.

Thanks! Are there any particular links to the fanfic? :)

Thanks! Are there any particular links to the fanfic? :)

They were hosted on Planewalker.com, which is currently recovering from a database crash. Here's one of them that google managed to locate somewhere: Daru ib Shamiq

To avoid cluttering this thread, once they're back up I can PM links, or PM me your email address and I'll email you all of them.

Relevant

Score one for the Proteans!

Reincarnation in general works out pretty well for me, although topsy-turvy fluidness is definitely a different take than I am used to :)

I think Redemption Engine does a pretty good job addressing this, though.

Cheers!
Landon

DM Pendin Fust wrote:

I want some more on the daemon, The Four Horseman, and escpecially the Oiondaemon. I want these things so badly.

You really want more despair-inducing, heart-numbing, daemon-fueled horror to kill and devour your PCs?

... I could totally get on board that crazy train. >:D

Perfect! All aboard!

Did Shelyn get a new Herald?

DM Pendin Fust wrote:

I want some more on the daemon, The Four Horseman, and escpecially the Oiondaemon. I want these things so badly.

You really want more despair-inducing, heart-numbing, daemon-fueled horror?

YES. Yesverymuchpleaseandthankyou.

Did Shelyn get a new Herald?

New artwork, but not a new Herald. She's no longer a statue.

Does the Night Monarch have Starflight? I just noticed that the old stat block didn't, but the Star Monarch, which is a lesser, mortal version of it, does.

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Did Shelyn get a new Herald?

New artwork, but not a new Herald. She's no longer a statue.

Ok, thanks...

I was a little disappointed in the treatment of the gods after the core 20. A full page might of been good on each of these, half a page does not seem enough.

I was a little disappointed in the treatment of the gods after the core 20. A full page might of been good on each of these, half a page does not seem enough.

yes, especially the lack of full treatment for Besmara... i know she's not core, but she's no minor either... ;)

Several of those non-core deities DO have full writeups in AP volumes. Besmara, for example. And we will continue to do those articles for other gods in the future, likely heading more toward the new format we established in Inner Sea Gods.