Monkeying Around

Count me among the people who's REALLY REALLY happy about this. And the PFS ruling refunding the difference in AoMF costs.

How long until someone complains that this buffs druids and summoners?

How long until someone complains that this buffs druids and summoners?

I was thinking of mentioning it about 8.5 hours ago. Helps out anyone who makes it a goal of having 3 or more natural attacks, really.

Thanks for all the work, Paizo-folk!

Druids and Summoners everywhere, rejoice!

Other than the flurry ruling reversal, I feel the rest of the changes were simply not needed. I love monks, and they were fine as is.

The Flurry revamp I have a problem with as it essentially gives a monk the same BAB of a fighter using the two-weapon fighting tree feats and lets him do stuff with his other hand. It seems unbalanced to me as the monk is good at skills and fighting making the monk able to fight on par with a fighter and do stuff the fighter can't at the same time just seems unbalanced to me.

Why do you think the changes weren't needed? Did you play a monk and feel like you were able to contribute meaningfully and monkey like against opponents with DR? How many times did you find yourself purchasing weapons rather than a amulet so that you could "keep up" with the guys?

These changes do not imbalance the game, they make monks actually do what they're advertised to do without causing undo optimization.

A few nich things get a boost (things with lots of natural attacks) but by and large now the monk is where other classes are option wise.

Brad the fighter still has unique feats and archetypes, and can also do more with his charges, higher base attack, higher hit point die, among other points.

I love monks and feel that help like this was totally needed.

I've had nothing but a bad time with my monk experience to this point. Nothing deflates the feeling of being a fantastic martial artist quite like not being good at martial arts. I'm eager to try and finally make the monk I've always wanted work now.

This doesn't eat into the fighter's niche at all. It just helps the monk actually live up to theirs.

The Flurry revamp I have a problem with as it essentially gives a monk the same BAB of a fighter using the two-weapon fighting tree feats and lets him do stuff with his other hand. It seems unbalanced to me as the monk is good at skills and fighting making the monk able to fight on par with a fighter and do stuff the fighter can't at the same time just seems unbalanced to me.

Monk . . . on par with the fighter?

Heh.

Heh-heh.

Heh-heh-HA.

Oh, that was good one. Exclusive of Strength and magic items, by 20th level (we can do this level by level if you prefer, but it still doesn't look good for the monk at any level), the fighter is +7 ahead of the monk on attack rolls, and gains a +8 bonus on damage rolls. (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Training 4 for attacks, Weapon Specalization, Greate Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training 4 for damage). He auto-crits every time he threatens, he moves without penalty in heavy armor (so 40' in plate mail with boots of striding and springing; 60' with haste), he basically ignores the first ten points of any DR, and he has feats out the wazoo. Plus more hit points.

No, friend, the fighter still hits more often, and harder than the monk.

MA

@Master_Arminas: Not all Fighter's can make use of all those bonuses.

On-Topic: Thank you Paizo!

well in all fairness not all monks have Ki and not all monks have flurry... but that's not really the point is it?

I love monks and feel that help like this was totally needed.

I've had nothing but a bad time with my monk experience to this point. Nothing deflates the feeling of being a fantastic martial artist quite like not being good at martial arts. I'm eager to try and finally make the monk I've always wanted work now.

This doesn't eat into the fighter's niche at all. It just helps the monk actually live up to theirs.

Now we only need official ascetic character alternate progression rules and that would also cover that niche. :)

Mikaze wrote:

I love monks and feel that help like this was totally needed.

I've had nothing but a bad time with my monk experience to this point. Nothing deflates the feeling of being a fantastic martial artist quite like not being good at martial arts. I'm eager to try and finally make the monk I've always wanted work now.

This doesn't eat into the fighter's niche at all. It just helps the monk actually live up to theirs.

Now we only need official ascetic character alternate progression rules and that would also cover that niche. :)

Ultimate Campaign?!

All good "changes" -- I don't consider the flurry of blows ruling a change -- and I am happy to see them. Ideally AoMF would be for unarmed only and priced identical to a weapon enhancement and work just like them (go up to +10, need a +1 before adding special properties) or even better get moved to the robe slot, with an item for natural weapons (including unarmed as well) like the current AoMF for natural weapon users, for whom the current AoMF is worth the money.

Too little to call the monk fixed. But, definitely a start.

Thank you, Paizo.

Actually one could homerule similar items.

Personally I would rather see a hand slot or wrist slot item for those.

I mean no Hand-To-Hand Fighter goes into combat without some form of protection for their hand. At least not if they are expecting a confrontation.

I wouldn't want hand items if it restricted a monk's flurry to just punch-punch-punch though.

A huge part of the monk's appeal is that they can use their entire body as a weapon. Kicks should be just as viable as punches. And if flaming fists of fury are cool, searing kicks, blazing knee strikes, and explosive elbows are awesome.

I am just saying it takes those slots but empowers their whole body.

Sort of how the AoMF does.

like handwraps in everquest? =P

Or Handwraps in DDO.

How does this sound:

Handwraps: priced as a Club but requires 1 Minute to equip and a Move Action to remove. It has no penalty and only enhances the users Unarmed Strikes.

Or just make weapons like Cestus, Brass Knuckles, Gauntlets, etc use the increased Damage Dice. Which they should.

Looks like my "whatever changes to the Monk will be made, people will want more" prediction was spot on. :)

This is synonymous with predicting Paizo would not go for a complete fix. Anyone could have predicted that.

A complete fix would inevitably break published archetypes requiring changes across multiple books because the fundamental problem is how the dual BAB effects mobility and fixing that would involve going to full BAB which would break non-flurrying archetypes.

That was not going to happen. The monk is too fundamentally broken thematically and structurally to fix in this edition.

The unarmed monk still has either an AC or accuracy and damage problem depending on whether he wears an amulet of mighty fists or of mighty armor. If his saves balance that then the paladin and the superstition rage power and the favored class bonuses that boost it are errors in need of rectification. That could have been fixed, though perhaps at the risk of further breaking summoners, but there was essentially a 0% chance of Paizo fixing the mobility/flurry conflict.

Oh Frabjous Day! Calloh, Callay!

While it doesn't solve all problems, I am still delighted with these changes.

And manly tears were shed this day.

I like the changes, they make playing the monk a smoother experience in my oppinion.

So, I am happy, but I guess all the monk lovers won't be completely happy, until they get an archetype or two that removes a lot of the abilties monks don't desperately need and replace it with hitting people in an awesome agile way.....

Well I am happy ^^

Awesome. This is honestly more than I expected, and very helpful.

I like the changes, they make playing the monk a smoother experience in my oppinion.

So, I am happy, but I guess all the monk lovers won't be completely happy, until they get an archetype or two that removes a lot of the abilties monks don't desperately need and replace it with hitting people in an awesome agile way.....

Well I am happy ^^

Not really, at least, not in my case. My only other major beefs are the flurry/movement and MAD. The flurry/movement is an issue for every class in the game, either stand still and full attack, or move and attack once, so it's more an issue for the game as a whole, than just the monk. The ability score dependency is an issue that isn't easily solved, so it's not one that would be fixed any time soon.

Well that's an improvement - it doesn't go as far as I would have liked, but it's definitely an improvement!

Flurry-of-Blows - Yep, that's what a lot of people wanted, and it makes the monk work as intended for this feature and removes a lot of confusion. Definite plus.

Cold Iron/Silver DR bypass - was much needed, and is much appreciated. I think you could have gone further here, there is still alignment DR to bypass, but it's a step in the right direction.

Cost of AoMF - well that fixed half the problem with it. The other half remains, which is the +5 cap. Still a step in the right direction.

Overall, I can see why you've gone this road. It's small steps, seeing if they produce something unbalanced, then perhaps further small steps down the road if the monk is still suffering. I would have liked for something to address the +5 cap, the MAD issue, the remaining DRs, the joke that is wholeness of body, etc. but those are perhaps for further editions to resolve.

Thanks guys, for giving this some time and attention!

An improvement to be sure. I still think the Amulet of Mighty Fists is overpriced because weapons are functionally slotless. (An unarmed non-monk can TWF with brass knuckles for the same price without displacing his Amulet of Natural Armor, but a monk cannot do so without losing his unarmed strike dice.)

I think as long as AMF is inferior to weapons (takes the neck slot without a price discount relative to TWF, only goes up to +5 total enhancement) unarmed monks are going to have issues matching the other low skill classes. Barbarians can probably still be built to one up nearly any unarmed monk. Cavaliers and Oracles aren't strictly superior because of poor will and fortitude saves respectively, but have other advantages that can be quite substantial.

I disagree.

Weapons aren't 'slotless'. TWF or THF preclude a shield, can't switch weapons w/o dropping, etc. A monk like the zen archer can flurry with fists, knees, feet etc while holding (and using!) a bow, a fighter can't do that with his weapons. Hand slots have been discussed before.

I disagree.

Weapons aren't 'slotless'. TWF or THF preclude a shield, can't switch weapons w/o dropping, etc. A monk like the zen archer can flurry with fists, knees, feet etc while holding (and using!) a bow, a fighter can't do that with his weapons. Hand slots have been discussed before.

"Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons."

Ah, I've not looked at the zen archer archtype at the same time.

So make it "Any monk except the zen archer can flurry... while holding a bow" (or wand, or potion bottle or anything).

It doesn't change that weapons aren't slotless.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I like the changes, they make playing the monk a smoother experience in my oppinion.

So, I am happy, but I guess all the monk lovers won't be completely happy, until they get an archetype or two that removes a lot of the abilties monks don't desperately need and replace it with hitting people in an awesome agile way.....

Well I am happy ^^

Not really, at least, not in my case. My only other major beefs are the flurry/movement and MAD. The flurry/movement is an issue for every class in the game, either stand still and full attack, or move and attack once, so it's more an issue for the game as a whole, than just the monk. The ability score dependency is an issue that isn't easily solved, so it's not one that would be fixed any time soon.

I understand the frustration with the flurry/mobility issue, but in practice I've personally not seen it be a big deal. Mind, I've not played a monk myself, but I've seen them played in two campaigns, including one I am in right now.

In the current campaign, often on the turn the monk needs to move, she activates stunning fist since she only has a standard action. Then when she can stand still, then she flurries. Seems like a fine tactic to me, and stunning fist can only be used as a standard anyway, so may as well use it when you can't flurry. Monk could also initiate a combat maneuver as a standard which is a very good use of her time, usually. So switching back and forth does not seem to be a huge deal to me, IMHO.

Now I know the real issue is that sometimes (I think?) the monk hits better while flurrying at higher levels, and thus when you have to make a standard action attack, the monk is gimped. I wonder if you could allow the monk to choose to make an unarmed strike (only) as a standard attack with the same bonus as his first flurry attack. Otherwise is why I'd rather see the monk as a full BAB class with fewer special abilities. (Heck, I've yet to be convinced the monk would be overpowered if it were full BAB with nothing else changed.) That will not likely be seen as a revision in this version of the game, however.

So is the remaining "issue" simply that monks are too versatile?

In the current campaign, often on the turn the monk needs to move, she activates stunning fist since she only has a standard action. Then when she can stand still, then she flurries. Seems like a fine tactic to me, and stunning fist can only be used as a standard anyway...

Where is that limitation spelled out? I see a restriction that stunning fist can only be used once in a round, but nothing that says you can only use it with a standard attack, and not with one of the attacks in an iterative sequence or a flurry of blows.

DeathQuaker wrote:

In the current campaign, often on the turn the monk needs to move, she activates stunning fist since she only has a standard action. Then when she can stand still, then she flurries. Seems like a fine tactic to me, and stunning fist can only be used as a standard anyway...

Where is that limitation spelled out? I see a restriction that stunning fist can only be used once in a round, but nothing that says you can only use it with a standard attack, and not with one of the attacks in an iterative sequence or a flurry of blows.

Truth. You must declare stunning fist before the attack is rolled, but it does not take an action; although you are limited to one attempt each round. You could use stunning fist on an attack of opportunity if you wish. However, you must hit with your attack AND deal damage in order for stunning fist to go into effect; so if DR reduces your damage to 0 or less, the attempt is wasted.

MA

I understand that folks still have some frustrations with a few aspects of the monk. At this time, we are not considering any further changes. We want to see how these shake out over time and let things normalize a bit before any further considerations are made.

This is how we work on these issues. Small adjustments let us better gauge progress and understand impact. Big changes just lead to more big changes down the road and that is no way to manage a rules set.

Thanks for the comments folks.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Thank you sir! And for the other recent FAQ!

Oh Frabjous Day! Calloh, Callay!

Argh, you beat me to it.

I understand that folks still have some frustrations with a few aspects of the monk. At this time, we are not considering any further changes. We want to see how these shake out over time and let things normalize a bit before any further considerations are made.

This is how we work on these issues. Small adjustments let us better gauge progress and understand impact. Big changes just lead to more big changes down the road and that is no way to manage a rules set.

Thanks for the comments folks.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

LONG LIVE REASON! LONG LIVE PAIZO!

I understand that folks still have some frustrations with a few aspects of the monk. At this time, we are not considering any further changes. We want to see how these shake out over time and let things normalize a bit before any further considerations are made.

This is how we work on these issues. Small adjustments let us better gauge progress and understand impact. Big changes just lead to more big changes down the road and that is no way to manage a rules set.

Thanks for the comments folks.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Thanks, I figured as much. We'll see how the discussion is in a year or two. :)

JohnF wrote:

DeathQuaker wrote:

In the current campaign, often on the turn the monk needs to move, she activates stunning fist since she only has a standard action. Then when she can stand still, then she flurries. Seems like a fine tactic to me, and stunning fist can only be used as a standard anyway...

Where is that limitation spelled out? I see a restriction that stunning fist can only be used once in a round, but nothing that says you can only use it with a standard attack, and not with one of the attacks in an iterative sequence or a flurry of blows.

Truth. You must declare stunning fist before the attack is rolled, but it does not take an action; although you are limited to one attempt each round. You could use stunning fist on an attack of opportunity if you wish. However, you must hit with your attack AND deal damage in order for stunning fist to go into effect; so if DR reduces your damage to 0 or less, the attempt is wasted.

MA

Ah, I was confusing once per round with standard. Not my character and I didn't bother to double check the rule so my bad. Still a decent option if you can only make one attack a round. I really feel, personally, having a way to move and multi-attack could break things very quickly (and if you want to do multi-attack damage with one hit, that's what Vital Strike is for), so for me the bigger issue is the lower to-hit for the monk.

It would be nice if monks had an ability when they flury that for every successful hit against an enemy that they get a cumulative bonus on there next attack and evey attack after until they miss.

For example 1st attack+0 2nd+1 3rd+2 4th+4 5th+8 etc.

It would be nice if monks had an ability when they flury that for every successful hit against an enemy that they get a cumulative bonus on there next attack and evey attack after until they miss.

For example 1st attack+0 2nd+1 3rd+2 4th+4 5th+8 etc.

That wouldn't work at all! A Monk's iteratives are at a -5 penalty just like everyone else. The successive attacks are already less likely to hit, so it's very unlikely to get the chain going.

Mythic Champion Monks with Precision however....

My two cents...

Flurry of Blows: Nice change, which adds attack options to a still too static special ability...

Ki Pool: I'm not sure I like this one. A monk already does more damage with its fists than with any other monk weapon and this change basically removes the only thing that made weapons viable for a monk: to bypass RDs that unarmed strikes were unable to bypass...
Maybe it would have been better to modify the whole monk damage mechanics or making bypassing RD a ki point burning ability (similar to how a paladin's smite ability works)...

Amulet of Mighty Fists: Not sure what to think about this. I always thought that such an object should not exist and there should be other ways to bypass RDs with natural attacks and unarmed strikes. Besides, the rule about enhancement bonuses as equivalent to materials looks really silly to me, since it removes the need for those special materials to exist in the first place: you just need a bigger bonus, like in the past, a thing which was thankfully removed with 3.5 and needed not to be brought back...

While talking about the Amulet of Mighty Fists: I couldn't find an answer on if fixed cost enchanments can be put on it. Such as Dueling from ultimate equipment. Fixed cost of 14000. How much is that (and nothing else) on the amulet? 16000?

Bracers of armor don't allow it at all, but there's no such wording here.

These are awesome news! Thank you, Paizo!

Druids and Summoners became slightly more powerful thanks to the reduced price of AoMF, but it doesn't really matter.

Can't wait for HeroLab to update these changes! ^^

You cannot bypass me, Mad Master, not ever. I'm too glorious.

You cannot bypass me, Mad Master, not ever. I'm too glorious.

Steps around Ravingdork what was that?

On-Topic: Magic Enhancements by-passing Material DR doesn't bother me. Though I play Martial Characters where the whole Golf Bag of Weapons becomes annoying.

AoMFs boosting Druids and Summoners(especially Summoners and Brood Masters) makes me happy. I feel like the Cheshire Cat right now.

Just what the summoner needed too!

You know, I was thinking about these, and after some reflection, I am not sure if they were well thought out.

This is Pathfinder, not 3.5. RAI trumps RAW in PF.

Let us start with the FAQ that isn't here: the one about :
"Can I make multiple sunder attempts in one round as part of a full-attack action? The sunder text says that I can make sunder attempts in place of melee attacks in an attack action, which is not technically a full-attack action.
Yes you can. The text is a little unclear here. Instead of saying "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack", the text should read "in place of a melee attack", which would allow you to make multiple attempts in one round, or even make a sunder attempt as an attack of opportunity."

Now yes, this appears to make sense, it clarifies and goes along with the wording of what is a "attack action" as opposed to a "melee attack". Great.

But let us think it out. What does it really do? It allows more Sundering in the game. This will allow some hasted Giant with TWF to strip some fighter of all his worldly possesions in a single round. Is this a Good Thing? The problem isnt with "attack action" as opposed to "melee attack", the problem is - Sunder is part of a broken, unbalanced and unrealistic attacks that was brought over willy=nilly from 3.5, when it should have been dropped.

How about this? Sunder is a special Standard action, that in many ways acts as a melee attacks, except that it can never be done more than once a round.

In other words, the new ruling is great by the RAW, but I don;t think was fully thought out as to long term consequences.

The Amulet of Mighty Fists fix is great for monks. But you know, I see few monk builds anyway. What is going to happen is not that the Monk-ophiles will stop complaining (not even if you give them full bBAB and a D30 for HP!), but now this will be standard equiptment for every Eidolon, and every broken build (which I have seen here) that has a PC making attacks with head butt, horns, 4 claws, 4 vestigial arms, 4 tentacles, a tail, a bite, wing buffets and Thoth knows what else. And, I have actually seen those very builds here.

In other words, the new ruling is great by the RAW, but I don't think was fully thought out as to long term consequences.

Instead how about this? Monk Unarmed Strike enhancement: a monk can take any slot (usually hands or feet) and enhance a set of wrappings, sandals or whatever seems appropraite to the genre. They are enhanced in cost exactly as any other magic weapon, but they apply their bonus to all of a Monks Unarmed strikes- and only a monks normal Unarmed strikes. They work just like any other weapon enhancement for bypassing DR, cost etc. If by some chance a Monk gains additional natural weapons, such as claws, they do not benefit from this enhancement.

Oh and guys? the FAQ and this Blog differs in one critical point, per the FAQ the flurry only works with "monk weapons" or an unarmed strike. Not that vorpal falcata your monk has picked up and is profient with from dipping a level of Fighter, etc.

Oh and guys? the FAQ and this Blog differs in one critical point, per the FAQ the flurry only works with "monk weapons" or an unarmed strike. Not that vorpal falcata your monk has picked up and is profient with from dipping a level of Fighter, etc.

Oh. Well, darn. I guess I didn't realize that Flurry previous to this FAQ worked with Falcata... since... you know.. Falcatas aren't Monk weapons and Flurry has only ever worked with Monk weapons and unarmed strike...

Odd how that works out.

==========================

There's also something else you need to pay attention to. Anyone that wants to show up with some guy that has min-maxed his character to hell and back so he can be some form of Rage-Pounce Druid with 27 natural attacks and a beefed up AoMF or munchkining his Eidolon to ungodly levels, isn't there to play an RPG, he's there to win the game.

People that play that way are going to play that way no matter how much you nerf the rules. They will always desire to play the most brokenly powerful character in the game.

Also, the majority of those builds are nothing more than theory-craft not meant for actual game play. This kind of stuff happens in real life all the time. Nascar has working cars, but none of them are actually meant to be driven like a car. They exist solely to race and no other purpose. Those theory-craft characters submitted to the DPR Olympics exist for arena combat and DPR theory-fights and no other purpose. They aren't 'real' characters, they're numbers in a calculator.