How high of a spell level should this paladin spell be? Is it a bad idea?


Advice


Blind Eye of Heaven
Abjuration
Personal
Casting Time 1 round
Duration 10 minute + 1 round or until discharged
You are temporarily cut off from any of your deities, orders, and vows. You may not use any abilities or benefit from any features associated with a divine spellcasting class or any class whose abilities are taken away upon breaching an oath or vow. Any actions you take while casting this spell and while under the effects of this spell will not incur an alignment shift and cannot be witnessed by divination effects from good creatures. Further, any pact, vow, or moral obligation that would be affected by your actions are considered otherwise kept, unless another creature bears witness. When the spell ends, any abilities or benefits from class features suppressed by this spell are returned unless otherwise revoked.

You may choose to end the spell early. If you do, roll a Will save or be subjected to Memory Lapse as the spell except that you forget the events of the entire duration of the spell. You cannot take an automatic failure on this roll.

This spell is not on the Paladin's spell list until the Paladin witnesses another spellcaster under its effects. Once witnessed, the Paladin learns everything about the spell and can cast it spontaneously in place of a spell of the same level. After casting this spell, permanently remove it from your Known spells list. The Paladin can only cast this spell once in their lifetime. Reincarnation, resurrection, and magic items do not grant additional castings. Learning this spell intentionally can be considered a breach of the oath with the Paladin's deity and should be done with utmost secrecy.

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So, why this spell? I was considering adding moral temptations to a future campaign and I thought I start with Paladin, as the obvious beacon of LG. The idea behind this spell is that a Paladin player may find themselves in a position where they witness a falling paladin under the effects of the spell and then the spell instantly becomes an "option" to the player.

They get one freebie. One chance to be as bad as they possibly could be. Think of it like a The Purge moment. This will test their faith quite well. On one side, it looks like a low-risk high-reward button. On the other, they're actually faced with a high-risk scenario. After utilizing the spell, they're likely to have been noticed by their party doing something bad. If confronted or if the witness prays to their god, the shows over. You've been caught. Worse yet is that the paladin will not be able to lie about the events that transpire if they remember them.

Considered another way, this allows a Paladin to use an evil means to a good end. One that would normally be unavailable to them. Such as pulling the lever at a railway fork to kill one person instead of five, lying to and deceiving the big-bad, or utilizing necromancy in a way that desecrates a dead body.

Is including such a spell a bad idea? Is going about baiting these types of moral quandaries from players too much?

Sovereign Court

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A paladin already has the ability to break the rules to do what he thinks needs to be done. Risking your personal purity for the greater good is the ultimate sacrifice.


Paladins already can do this when performing a chaotic act, after the fact. They become a lesser version of a fighter until they get Atonement cast.

Mechanics:
1. It does not make sense to allow this for an evil act, nor [generally] for a premeditated one.

2. Paladins know all the spells on their list, since they are prepared casters. Only spontaneous casters have a Spells Known mechanic.

3. Paladins don't get spells until 4th level. If you are going to allow a "get out of jail free" type of opportunity, it should really apply at level 1, or at least very early in the career.

If a Paladin is going to commit an evil act and not fall, that's the GM hand-waving the rules, which is effectively what this spell does.

The only existing item I see that is from Craft Wondrous Item and the spell of Atonement is this Zonzon Doll. It's highest ability is about getting forgiveness after the fact (while caring for the doll for a month), and the recipient is still alive:
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Zonzon% 20Doll%20of%20Forgiveness

If you are looking to create a mechanic that's a one-and-done type of thing, but not as readily available as a potion or scroll (and would work for a spell of level 5), you could create a Manual of Atonement. Like stat-boosting books use the line "Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book." Add enough GP cost, and this would most likely be a once-per-lifetime limitation.


Yeah, I'm going to agree that this doesn't make sense to exist.

A paladin isn't supposed to have the idea of premeditating an act that would cause them to fall, which is what this spell would be.

"I might need to do something evil, so I should prepare this spell to avoid the ramifications."

No, it just doesn't make sense.

Paladins sometimes choose to do things that result in their fall, and when they do so they should be fully prepared to face the ramifications of doing so.

If a paladin really wanted to prepare they should invest in UMD and a scroll of atonement.


Ounce of prevention:
Phylactery of Faithfulness:
1,000 gp
warns of potential alignment shift or adverse standing with diety

Pound of cure:
Find a level 9+ Cleric/Druid and pay for the spell-casting service for Atonement after the fact.
450 gp = Atonement spell casting (Spell level 5 * Caster level 9 * 10 gp)
2,500 gp = Atonement component cost in rare incense and offerings
------
2,950 gp

Scroll of Atonement, requires a UMD check of 25 or a level 9+ Cleric/Druid/Oracle
1,125 gp = Atonement spell casting (Cleric Spell level 5 scroll)
2,500 gp = Atonement component cost in rare incense and offerings
------
3,625 gp


Claxon wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to agree that this doesn't make sense to exist.

A paladin isn't supposed to have the idea of premeditating an act that would cause them to fall, which is what this spell would be.

The spell is added as a spontaneous casting option. The idea is that the spell won't be premeditated, it's that when the Paladin ends up in a situation where he may fall, the Paladin has the option of hiding the event from their God in that split-second.

JoeElf wrote:


If you are looking to create a mechanic that's a one-and-done type of thing, but not as readily available as a potion or scroll (and would work for a spell of level 5), you could create a Manual of Atonement. Like stat-boosting books use the line "Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book." Add enough GP cost, and this would most likely be a once-per-lifetime limitation.

This is a much better option for an after-the-fact. I want them to be more tempted in the moment. For example, a paladin player may not commit an evil act at the cost of their morality, but given a get-out-of-jail free option, they might be tempted to use it in these moments where they otherwise wouldn't.

I'll consider this type of item after a Paladin falls when they don't expect to. But I'm still looking for that split-second temptation.

JoeElf wrote:
3. Paladins don't get spells until 4th level. If you are going to allow a "get out of jail free" type of opportunity, it should really apply at level 1, or at least very early in the career.

I could make it a virulent once-ever ability that they can gain at any level. The idea is that the temptation comes later specifically because the moral high-ground is easy to keep in the early levels. In later levels, the scale is grander and PCs are going to be dealing with far greyer matters than "Protect our village from obvious threats."


This should not be a spell at all. It does not fit with the idea of the paladin at all and makes absolutely no sense.

I would say that any paladin who cast this spell falls instantly. By beginning to cast this spell the paladin has broken his code and therefore instantly falls. Since he is not under the effect of the spell until after it is cast he does not get the protection for it for casting the spell.

This is an incredibly bad idea.


Have to agree with everyone else that it's not great idea. Honestly, before doing something like that I'd just tell my Paladin player that I'll be pretty lenient when it comes to handling alignment issues.


This sounds like an inquisitor spell to me. Maybe inquisitors use it on the paladins of their faith when the dirty work needs to be done.


Dislike it. Goes against every bit of the paladin class. I do like the idea of it being an inquisitor spell. Perhaps a divine boon given only to the truely devout after some incredible test. I might also use a fake version as a temptation for the bad guy to use on him. After all it isn't a heroic sacrifice when it isn't a sacrifice. You just screwed up.


I'd say casting this is an automatic fall. There would be no reason to cast it unless you were planning to do something you know is wrong. Clear premeditation.


For me as a GM the spell is essentially impossible. I consider all divine spell casters as gaining those spells directly (or indirectly thru their deity's divine servants). The divine caster prays to his or her deity and the spells are the resulting gift. This would mean the deity itself would be granting its loyal(?!) follower (i.e. the Paladin) the means to do something the deity (paradoxically) wouldn't want or allow and hide that fact from them. Anything that might "require" the deity to do that would be so unusual that, at least for me as a GM, it falls outside the idea of what the spells represent and more into the realm of a special story line or something similar.

99.99% of the time I don't as the GM intrude on a players choice (divine casters) of spells or what they do with them. In fact I don't recall ever having actually done so. I do however, warn and make clear to any divine caster that all their spells come from their deity and reserve the right for the deity, in character so to speak, to alter or place a specific spell or spells on the PC character's list. Call it if you will the deity giving the player/PC a very strong and not so subtle hint about what may be about to occur to them. A divine caster is a tool used by a deity and those spells are the way the deity intervenes in worldly affairs the vast majority of the time.

Sovereign Court

As an inquisitor spell it makes a lot more sense (PF inquisitors tend to be in charge of cloak and dagger, not like the real world where they'd be about maintaining orthodoxy).

As an inquisitor spell it could be a spell that introduces a sort of fugue in paladins, lets them do some black bag operation, and remember nothing of it afterwards. Because paladins who actually know they've been doing bad stuff would be rather traumatized.

The side effect would be that any guilt for actions committed by the paladin while under the influence would fall on the inquisitor...

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