I’ve never been a fan of ABP as I feel it does two things - abstracts from actual items, where I’m definitely wanting less abstraction in the narrative AND ruleset; and removes the pleasure of fun items. I also don’t really gel with the idea of “needing certain items” to stay relevant. Having said that, runes that add dice to weapons are kinda expected at higher levels, so….I guess you have to actually accept the reality of the ruleset. I’ll go with whatever folx want.
I actually agree with you on the points you just made I know it's a miricle ... just my experience with PbP since interactions between players is already tough, that it might be a way to try. I'd never adapt this in a tabletop game, but find that distribution of Loot, and shopping are challenging in PbP. I would still offer cool items and things, just not the typical "expected for this level type of thing". I'll definitely go along with the players decision, and not trying to push this option.
@SB: As for your question upthread about favored playstyles, in no order:
1: I *like* Combat, but not endless samey combats for combat’s sake. Which thankfully hasn’t happened here. This game’s combats have been narratively useful and moreover, w. I like interesting terrain, a mix of combatants, minions with bosses, sub bosses, recurring villains, hazards, time-sensitive tasks etc. The more chaos and changing of equilibrium between sides the more I like it. I don’t like “winning for winning’s sake” either. I want a narratively satisfying loss, or a great, hard fought win. Nothing bores me more than endless combats where the party is never really in danger. It’s like watching paint dry. Going through the motions, and in PbP that is agonising.
2: Exploration? Umm, I guess? I would hazard to agree that I’m unsure of the difference between dungeoncrawling and exploration in a sense, though dungeon crawling kinda evokes a whole other genre of game - tight, fraught, combat and tricks and traps and treasure. But exploring facets of the world, and the world as it relates to my character’s experiences with the party while in it? Yep. I like that.
3: Dungeon Crawl? As above. I like it, especially if the dungeon: makes sense as a living ecosystem (or unliving as the case may be); is interesting with lore and mystery; isn’t just loads of combats; has tactically satisfying environments; has factions; has multiple levels; has tricks and traps and treasure. Fun times.
4: Role play? Sure. But this is more in the hands of the players. I like interesting party dynamics - rivalries, jealousies, friendly bantering, competition, generosity, respect, hatreds, vendettas, blessings, synergy, teamwork, good days, bad days, pecking orders, upset pecking orders, misconceptions, insults, accolades, awesome stories shared and personal demons expelled by friends. You know, like any social group.
As for the current situation:
I’m not personally very invested in intrigue and investigation - I don’t oftrn play “skill monkeys” and I find the dissonance between player and character knowledge and what to do with it frustrating to navigate. And that’s at face to face tables. In PbP, with the time dilation involved it can be very hard for the party to stay “on task” unless someone (usially the GM) keeps a very good questlog on the campaign page - similar to GMNabu’s game that Supreme Being and I are in together. I think I often play outsiders with no “skin in the game” as it were as a subconscious crutch to avoid such activities. So, one orc witch who doesn’t understand civilisation at your service. I admit to finding the asylum a little anachronistic to my sense of the Lost Lands as presented so far, and Adayil sin’t exactly au fait with what is going on. Luckily the scaled rider piqued her limited interest, and she is doing what she can to assist, as clearly *something* ain’t right.
I would add “Intrigue and Investigation” to your list:
Combat
Roleplay
Intrigue/Investigation
Dungeon Crawling
Exploration/Hexploration.
(Just realised I meant to talk about Hexploration in my previous post. Because Hexploration is akin to Dungeon Crawling in that it is essentially it’s own game. And one I very much enjoy - a West Marches style approach where hazards are hidden out there in the land, are not balanced nor appropriate to your level and have differing levels of impact to the overall “plot” on a scale between “meh, this was fun but also random and advanced nothing to the plot” and “the plot is most definitely involved here”.)
As for the current situation:
I’m not personally very invested in intrigue and investigation - I don’t oftrn play “skill monkeys” and I find the dissonance between player and character knowledge and what to do with it frustrating to navigate. And that’s at face to face tables. In PbP, with the time dilation involved it can be very hard for the party to stay “on task” unless someone (usially the GM) keeps a very good questlog on the campaign page - similar to GMNabu’s game that Supreme Being and I are in together. I think I often play outsiders with no “skin in the game” as it were as a subconscious crutch to avoid such activities. So, one orc witch who doesn’t understand civilisation at your service. I admit to finding the asylum a little anachronistic to my sense of the Lost Lands as presented so far, and Adayil sin’t exactly au fait with what is going on. Luckily the scaled rider piqued her limited interest, and she is doing what she can to assist, as clearly *something* ain’t right.
I would add “Intrigue and Investigation” to your list:
Combat
Roleplay
Intrigue/Investigation
Dungeon Crawling
Exploration/Hexploration.(Just realised I meant to talk about Hexploration in my previous post. Because Hexploration is akin to Dungeon Crawling in that it is essentially it’s own game. And one I very much enjoy - a West Marches style approach where hazards are hidden out there in the land, are not balanced nor appropriate to your level and have differing levels of impact to the overall “plot” on a scale between “meh, this was fun but also random and advanced nothing to the plot” and “the plot is most definitely involved here”.)
The world may be coming to an end!!! I agree with you. In fact, once we finished at the Asylum, I was going to make a quest log of things you have uncovered to do, and put it in the campaign info tab. It's so easy to forget things you've found out and lose track of the many options. I had planned on running this from Lost Land module to LL module, but still leave crumbs to offer leads to you guys on what was most interesting to you guys. I'll summarize later, and it might clarify things.
I must say it is a bit disappointing that nobody is interested in grabbing on to the carrots I offer to help immerse yourselves in filling in details of the world... but it's not a deal killer. I find that if the players are involved in the design process it bolsters their immersion into the setting... but there seems to be no interest in that, so I'll let it go.
@SB - I’m a little confused about the kitchen scene. I think you have rolled a Diplomacy check on Adayil’s behalf, but narratively she…didn’t actually interact with anyone. So far she has just been ushered in and the chef is being…a typical chef. What am I missing?
I feel that I have tried to grab onto carrots, and have been slapped down each time. But, that doesn't mean I won't try again.
If others wanted ABP, I'd be okay with it, but I really don't like the whole idea of it and would vote no. I like the idea of getting loot.
Re: needing items to stay relevant. You have /always/ needed that in D20 RPGs. New gear is baked into the progression. Go back to Second Edition D&D and do a mid-level adventure with normal gear, and you'll get smoked.
Go to 3E and do a mid-level adventure with nothing more than masterwork weapons and armor, and you'll get smoked.
PF2E does it better than any previous D20 game for three reasons:
1. It is upfront and honest about it, so from the get-go, players and DMs are aware of the need to get better gear;
2. By using Item Levels, it tells the GM /when/ the math assumes the players should grow in power. Players may get the items sooner, of course, but the item levels let the GM know when the party needs them by; and
3. Narratively. It allows a player to invest in an item or two and have it grow with them. Take the fantasy trope of a young fighter coming back to his farm and seeing that orcs/bandits/the Empire have burned it down and killed his family. He could grab his grandfather's sword or the axe he uses to cut wood every morning and go off for revenge. But, in other d20 games, he tosses that family sword away for a shiny +1 sword by level 3. In PF2E, that sword can still be at his side - and effective - at level 20 when the BBEG goes down.
I feel that I have tried to grab onto carrots, and have been slapped down each time. But, that doesn't mean I won't try again.
If others wanted ABP, I'd be okay with it, but I really don't like the whole idea of it and would vote no. I like the idea of getting loot.
Re: needing items to stay relevant. You have /always/ needed that in D20 RPGs. New gear is baked into the progression. Go back to Second Edition D&D and do a mid-level adventure with normal gear, and you'll get smoked.
Go to 3E and do a mid-level adventure with nothing more than masterwork weapons and armor, and you'll get smoked.
PF2E does it better than any previous D20 game for three reasons:
1. It is upfront and honest about it, so from the get-go, players and DMs are aware of the need to get better gear;
2. By using Item Levels, it tells the GM /when/ the math assumes the players should grow in power. Players may get the items sooner, of course, but the item levels let the GM know when the party needs them by; and
3. Narratively. It allows a player to invest in an item or two and have it grow with them. Take the fantasy trope of a young fighter coming back to his farm and seeing that orcs/bandits/the Empire have burned it down and killed his family. He could grab his grandfather's sword or the axe he uses to cut wood every morning and go off for revenge. But, in other d20 games, he tosses that family sword away for a shiny +1 sword by level 3. In PF2E, that sword can still be at his side - and effective - at level 20 when the BBEG goes down.
Thanks for the input. As I said... I'm not a big fan either... just throwing it out there for discussion.
Can you please let me know where I've slapped down you trying to grab carrots? I try not to do so, but if it is within the structure of the rules... or at least close I would like to know where I've let you down. Can't change if I don't know where I've disappointed.
@SB - I’m a little confused about the kitchen scene. I think you have rolled a Diplomacy check on Adayil’s behalf, but narratively she…didn’t actually interact with anyone. So far she has just been ushered in and the chef is being…a typical chef. What am I missing?
That was a preemptive strike if you tried to talk with him. If not just disregard it.
I would prefer not doing ABP. The rules look interesting, but, I'm an old player, and am used to getting bling.
Quest log in Campaign Info. Feel free to comment, add or modify, and hopefully we'll get going again full blast by Monday.
Thanks for writing the quest log notes, SB.
I don't think most of them are quests. I think most are hooks, but it is still nice to see the possibilities that we have.
So, the ball is in your court. What is the next thing you want to do. I listed some hooks in the campaign thread... but need some direction before moving the plot along.
If we don't pick something today, I'll roll something randomly and move things forward.
Please just choose randomly.
Please just start us on our way to Bard's Gate.
Why?
The first quest, cited as original, takes us to Bard's Gate.
The second quest also seems to be resolvable in Bard's Gate.
Truth be told, as a bigger community, there might be a sage to help with the Orc Vials ... in Bard's Gate.
Just my thinking but there is a lot pointing to Bard's Gate.
So, the ball is in your court. What is the next thing you want to do. I listed some hooks in the campaign thread... but need some direction before moving the plot along.
I’m confused. Why do we need to “choose something to do”. I thought we were in the middle of something. Telurion and Caks are doing some investigating in the yard/surrounds, I’m in the kitchen and Lil, Aduriel and Variel are elsewhere in the Asylum. I fee like we are “doing” things now. I’m not sure why we need to be pushed to do…anything.
I mean at some point we need to gather together, pool our various knowledges and decide what to do…but currently we seem to be…active?
Perhaps the biggest problem is that, as a group, we have no tacit direction. Alhindri attacked us. I was under the impression the “metaplot” was trying to figure out what the hooved being who is possibly involved is and what part Alhindri has in the rising of the undead. We have a box with parts of the fiddle. We have priests in Bard’s Gate to visit. Bard’s Gate does seem to be a larger “centre” and thus have sages, alchemists, libraries, apothecaries, shoppes, taverns etc. So I would agree Bard’s Gate seems like the place to go to continue the investigation and deliver the box, find the priests etc…
Adayil might be nominally personally interested in the Lukseth orcs, but they and the vials don’t *seem* to be important to the wider investigation *to her*.
Sigh… I’ve already revealed what was in the yard. I’ve already shared the guards story. I’ve already set the scene in the kitchen. Nobody said what they’re doing… I think I’m just going to call this game. I can’t advance the whole campaign without buy in. It’s obvious I don’t know how to get more involvement from the players.
Everyone thanks for playing, and sorry I couldn’t figure out how to make this move better. See everyone around the boards. :-(
Weekends can be a challenge to get on the boards and then I post in the evening most weekdays. I thought I was going to be brought into the garden, filled in on what they found and I could share what I learned about this Merle and his tie with the scaly lady. After that, we needed to get the fiddle to Bard's Gate. If you wish to jump then I think we need to jump to heading out from Bard's Gate. If you want to let the campaign go, I guess we can do that. Things seem to have been a little rocky but they are moving forward. Plus, we just got our new player. So, again, my vote is to move on toward Bard's Gate.
Yep. What Telurion said. I’m just coming off a fairly busy weekend. And a little unsure how to proceed in the kitchen given there was a pre-emptive Diplomacy roll but I hadn’t…done…anything. So it’s not like we aren’t all engaged, but definitely finding it a little difficult at times.
My input:
I want to echo the weekend thing. Posts tend to be slower on weekends for expected reasons. It didn't impact me this weekend, but slow weekend posting should be expected.
We are spread out, and so while Caks/Telurion might know some things, and other people might know other things, we as a group might not know them. I mean, I don't read Spoilers unless they are to me, or I am part of whatever caused them. This is both to avoid metagaming - Lil does not know what the guards told Telurion as she is not with them - and to allow people more RP options and to share what they want to.
I think there's a lot we can look into here, and, Bard's Gate is clearly a goal we can move towards.
But, if you are not having fun GMing, then you should stop the game. Everyone needs to have fun, including you, and if you are not, that's not good. You've done an amazing job on the combat side of things, too. Pulling off a wave fight, at level 1, in a system not designed for wave fights, without it feeling unfair is really impressive.
My input:
I want to echo the weekend thing. Posts tend to be slower on weekends for expected reasons. It didn't impact me this weekend, but slow weekend posting should be expected.
We are spread out, and so while Caks/Telurion might know some things, and other people might know other things, we as a group might not know them. I mean, I don't read Spoilers unless they are to me, or I am part of whatever caused them. This is both to avoid metagaming - Lil does not know what the guards told Telurion as she is not with them - and to allow people more RP options and to share what they want to.
I think there's a lot we can look into here, and, Bard's Gate is clearly a goal we can move towards.
But, if you are not having fun GMing, then you should stop the game. Everyone needs to have fun, including you, and if you are not, that's not good. You've done an amazing job on the combat side of things, too. Pulling off a wave fight, at level 1, in a system not designed for wave fights, without it feeling unfair is really impressive.
I am, as the new guy, going to go ahead and respectfully disagree, at least partially. I do not think that stopping the game is the only answer. This is like relationship counseling, and tbh, if someone isn't having fun, and that could be anyone, then the team should press Pause and look at why that is. Doesn't mean the outcome will be different, but as a team, it seems like a courtesy that everyone owes each other.
Not long ago. I reached out to some people and asked if this campaign had ever been fun. Those people were Wolf & GM-SB. They were valuable conversations for me, and, I am still here because of them. Seems like it might be time to expand those conversations a little ...
Yesterday was a bad day for me and it carried on to the game. I'm going to take a few days to reconsider... but things are going to have to change a bit if I decide to continue to torture you guys.
I'm a storyteller GM, and it seems I only get your attention when there is an active combat. I won't railroad you, but the group needs someone or multiple individuals to step; forward and give me input.
I'm not running a prepackaged adventure, so your decisions motivate me to move forward. If you don't choose anything then I have to prepare for everything.
Okay. I took a week off, and after much thought would like to continue the game if most of you are still interested. I understand that I "overreact" sometimes and get easily frustrated... but I'll try to work on that.
To continue however there are (2) very important requirements.
1. Please try to work together more as a group, than wondering off doing "What your character would do". I think the PF2e rules are designed to encourage this type of Role play. I won't be "railroading" you so sometimes you have to make decisions and waiting a month to decide what to do next just won't cut it.
2. I don't mind clarifying my rules judgements... but am not interested in debating them. This is what sucks my enjoyment out of the game. I'll entertain your ideas but won't debate them. I'm sorry if you don't like my interpretation of a rule or situation... but my judgement is final!!!
Keep in mind I'm not running a module or AP, I'm making up as I go, with a overview of what is happening. There are multiple paths to get there, and I'll constantly adjust these depending upon your team's decisions and actions. Your character input drives what I present.
Having said that just chime in if you want to continue, and I'll move things along by finishing off the Asylum visit, deciding what to do with Alhindra, and starting on the trek to Bards Gate. If not... no hard feelings. As long as I have three interested in continuing I'm good to go.
SORRY about all the drama. Sometimes real life intrudes on this pseudo life.
I'm honestly not sure. I feel like I'm being reprimanded! :)
1. Please try to work together more as a group, than wondering off doing "What your character would do".
Has this happened? Can you specify where this happened so I can see what you consider "wandering off"? This is a pretty important one for me because I don't want to feel...constrained in "acting how my character might act". Like Adayil is hardly selfish, but has a strong "self-preservation" streak and values her autonomy? I feel like I'm missing something.
I think the PF2e rules are designed to encourage this type of Role play.
Do you mean working together or wandering off? Because clearly PF2 seems to encourage "teamwork", working as a "team" and teamily teeming in the teamy ways.
I won't be "railroading" you so sometimes you have to make decisions and waiting a month to decide what to do next just won't cut it.
Yep, I don't feel this is a railroad, but again, has this happened? I haven't seen any "waiting to make a decision".
What am I missing here - it's like we have two *very* different perceptions of the game so far.
2. I don't mind clarifying my rules judgements... but am not interested in debating them. This is what sucks my enjoyment out of the game. I'll entertain your ideas but won't debate them. I'm sorry if you don't like my interpretation of a rule or situation... but my judgement is final!!!
Yep. Pretty sure we get that. Don't even bother to entertain the ideas! Haha. ;)
You might every now and then just say "Interesting point. But definitely not happening here."
But really, after a while I think we'll all just realise you aren't actually interested in any of our rule "interpretations". Which is unfortunate, because all though RAW has...written rules....RAI is still a thing, and the written words comes across a myriad of different ways at a myriad of different tables. We're all just trying to a) make sense of the world narratively and b) have fun. Not wangle rules to get some kind of leverage or power game.
SORRY about all the drama. Sometimes real life intrudes on this pseudo life.
Not sure what you mean there at the end. If you are having stress in your life it will definitely bleed over into this? But mostly I don't see any drama. No need for you to apologise.
For the sake of discussion, I am going to own the wandering. Like not really wandering, maybe wondering. Maybe GM had to wonder where Variel was when Variel's player didn't post. In any case, more clarity is better, and that's a fair ask. I will be more clear, and I will wander less.
With regards to drama, I don't know that there was drama either. I don't know that Variel wandered, or didn't wander, but I very much DO know that his palyer didn't post for a minute. That is on me. I didn't post. If I don't post, the gray area is deservedly frustrating for the GM. That is on me. I didn't post about real-life either, and maybe I should have. Maybe we all should. Maybe we should be crafting more opportunities to understand where each other is coming from versus "wandering off" in terms of empathy. In principle, I generally want to be understood. SB, I believe, probably, is a moderately normal human being and may ALSO want to be understood. I don't think those are bad things, and I am certainly willing to do a better job communicating my needs to understanding and latitude with posting.
Half of the time I am moving through my "real" day praying that I will find an Elixer of Life, so I will always be ready to understand anyone who is feeling similarly.
I would echo Adayil's first reply to point 1. I don't think we've done that either. I think we've worked very well as a group thus far.
Eh, I’m going to move on from this. It’s partly also because I’m cleaning house and simplifying my investment across a few games. And this one has just seen too many problems. Scranford - thanks for taking the time to run the game and for being open to having me back. But I’m struggling to enjoy this one so I’ll drop out.
Okay. Thanks for playing along.
I'll put up a gameplay post tomorrow and see who replies and is interested in continuing. If not a forum then I'll call it a game and thanks for entertaining me.
I'm going under the assumption that you decide to leave Alhindra under the care of Abagail, and that the party is journeying onward to Bards Gate. If anything, else needs to be resolved, please jump in.
I will be away Tuesday and Wednesday the 3rd and 4th of September.
Okay. Thanks for playing along.
I found the story was great. Loved the NPCs and the combats. I’m glad Adayil could add some color to the game and thanks for weaving stuff in and around her. Hagness was a good character/deity.
There’s just too much inflexibility in discussion of rules interpretations and too much scar tissue across the length of the game.
I think it would be useful to address points raised above, particularly where they were echoed by other players do that remaining players can feel confident moving forward.
Regardless, can you please remove me from the game so it doesn’t show up in my current campaigns?
I'm also going to drop. I could discuss reasons privately if wanted. I do want to say that I think that the combat was fun and the wave fight at low level was impressive.
I also think the game could be successful with the four players that you have left.
Sorry team. Things got away from me today. I'll move us along tomorrow.
@ Caks and Variel.
I'm near my keyboard most of the day... so if you want to click on the Owl Bear Rodeo link I can admit you for future use.
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I'll try to get up a higher resolution map soon.
We are officially in Downtime mode till we're not. :-)
Looks like Aduriel isn't returning... so if you guys have any ideas of someone to invite... perhaps even two feel free to invite them to take a look.
It's going to be Okay right now as we explore Bards Gate and determine the next steps... but might make future combat encounters challenging.
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Now that you've arrived at Bards Gate we need to determine your direction. Here are three obvious options...
1. Originally you were going to the temple of Thyr to seek out Father Gimbles old friend Abysthor... who has been missing for a couple of years. NOTE: This was the original next quest based on the old Tellurion, but is still something that bears investigation.
2. Alhindra's tribe has a surviving member who is located in an area outside Bards Gate (This is the Tent City you passed through on the way in). Perhaps since Alhindra and Aduriel are no longer that relevant this might have less significance... but is still a viable thing to pursue.
3. Explore Bards Gate. There are tons of story hooks, and adventures that can be uncovered here by exploring the city and talking to people here. There are three open items that can be researched if interested.
* What is the purpose / identity of the strange vials taken off the Orcs you defeated.
* Research the drawings made of the Strange star maps sketched from the walls of the unusual girl at the Asylum
* Find out more about the fiddle and how to dispose of / destroy it. This was one reason you were going to seek out Abysthor.
Any of these would lead to the next part of the adventure, so choose what you want to do next, and I'll prepare and move us forward. I do think we should recruit at least one more player before we move into adventuring... but if you want to keep moving forward with only (3) I can make it happen, but you'll need to hire some help.
Also, if you have some goals or things you'd like to pursue based upon your characters background feel free to let me know and I can work that in as well.
My browser will not resolve the link. I can see it is in dropbox but it won't connect.
Not sure why I can't share this. I've never had a problem in the past. Maybe File Size???
I put a link to the map in Discord so I guess we'll have to use that till I figure it out.
Alorea stayed to work at the Asylum.
I believe that you, tellurion, and Variel are the only current players. I reached out today to try and recruit one or two more.
Not sure why I can't share this. I've never had a problem in the past. Maybe File Size???
I put a link to the map in Discord so I guess we'll have to use that till I figure it out.
I would absolutely say that the resolution is part of the issue.
The map on Discord is great
I am unclear at the moment if Barb's Gate has a drag community, but Variel is happy to make his stage name Alorea if that will help.
Rail... Here is your cue to enter.
NOTE to both new players... Don't know if I mentioned it or not... but we are using both the Free Archetype and the Ancestral Paragon Options.
Rail... Here is your cue to enter.
NOTE to both new players... Don't know if I mentioned it or not... but we are using both the Free Archetype and the Ancestral Paragon Options.
I will check, thank you.
Thanks, SB!
Looks like we will be introducing a couple of new players / characters today. I'll get the post up in a bit... and hopefully get the momentum built up and moving forward.
I will be away Thursday through Saturday.
I'll give you guys the rest of the day to react to Brennus's introduction, then move on to the meeting.
Can you give some direction on how shocking a talking raven is, please? I see in the backposts there were some talking wolves and nobody batted an eye so is it correct that talking animals are pretty common?
Talking animals are quite rare... especially in a civilized area like Bards Gate. There are many stories of sentient animals, but most are passed off as folk tales, or tricks of magic. None of you have ever encountered an actual sentient animal so I would think most of you would be expecting a trick of some sort.
A couple of things I noticed in looking at your Pathbuilder Characters. Remember you can go to the Hamburger menu in the upper right, and click on Character Options... then scroll down to both "Free Archetype, and "Ancestral Paragon". Not sure if you need the paid version to do this or not. If so, just choose manually and I'll add to your PB build.
1. Rail - You still have a Free Ancestry feat to choose at Level 1.
2. Brennus - You still have an Ancestral Paragon at level one, and a Free Archetype feat at Level 2.