Yes, the bat has reach, it is a large creature.
Just because something is large doesn't mean it has reach. The attack entry would say it has reach if it is more than 5 feet. Here is another large creature as an example. The otyugh's tentacles have 10 foot reach, their jaws do not.
That is not aligned with the Size and reach table that I am using.
At the same note, I made an assumption that Bulettes since being huge have a reach of 15 ft, but if I would follow that each attack needs to specify it, it has a 5 ft reach.
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IMO, bats would be long creatures, not tall (dire bats in 1e only had 5 foot reach), as would bulettes, so you could say that they have 10 foot natural reach. Yet an otyugh would be tall, so it should have 10 foot natural reach, yet the statblock specifies the reach of the tentacle. It appears to be inconsistent since all those creatures are from the bestiary, but I'm firmly convinced large bats shouldn't have reach.
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Just because something is large doesn't mean it has reach. The attack entry would say it has reach if it is more than 5 feet. Here is another large creature as an example. The otyugh's tentacles have 10 foot reach, their jaws do not.
That is not aligned with the Size and reach table that I am using.
At the same note, I made an assumption that Bulettes since being huge have a reach of 15 ft, but if I would follow that each attack needs to specify it, it has a 5 ft reach.
I might be misunderstanding, but you're using that table on top of what the scenario gives you? The stat block itself should be enough, you don't have to modify those any further. A large dragon has three different kinds of reach, for instance, all specified in their attacks.
But yeah, creature reach is more art than science. That table is more often wrong than right, I feel. I have no idea why Bulettes have no reach, by all means they should have 10 ft indeed.
Also, a quick way to distinguish between long and tall: if they have limbs they typically don't use to walk with, they're long. Most quadrupeds are usually long, bipeds are tall. This is not foolproof when it comes to centaurs and the like, but basically, arms have reach, legs don't. You need to be pretty close to a horse for it to kick you, but a giant (especially with a weapon like a sword of a club) can reach further away.
Bats would be long. They don't have any limbs that extend from their bodies.
Ok ;) let us stop this discussion here ;)
I am fine going with the interpretation that bats do not have reach. At the same time, this will push us into 3d combat which I love even more, as bat will fly over your head, as the ceiling is 15 ft.
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'The stat block itself should be enough' - well I don't find it enough;)
Stat block is referring to tags that are not described. Use of weakened, elite also requires me to reach to rules and recalculate the stats. Tags like undead have implications that you do recall knowledge using religion, mindless that certain spells will not work etc.etc. My assumption was that tag like: Large, Huge have an implication on reach, as the above table suggest.
And I am writing the above to explain why I was referring to that table, I was under impression that reach is a function of size, unless it is specified on a weapon/attack.
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I don't want to dive into the anatomy of bats ;)
They don't have any limbs that extend from their bodies.
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Each person that have a glyph (which is a reward for GM'ing) can give other a hero point when the game starts. Normally each player starts with 1. Since you as a team had enough glyphs each player started with 2 hero points (so that includes 1 given by Granitt).
Got it. I've updated the character sheet.
On the other note, could you please be more declarative in your actions? So in any way summarize how did you spent your round.
Just like Granitt did
From how I read your actions.
- move
- pull out bow
- command animal:
- move
- attack
Yes, sorry. I usually do that and I just forgot this time.
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For what it's worth, I asked about sizes and reach for creatures on the Rules channel of the Org Play Online discord, and the general consensus is that by RAW the stat block has to specify Reach on an attack or the reach defaults to 5ft (except for Tiny creatures that have a default reach of 0ft). The Size and Reach table merely lists a typical reach for different sized creatures; it is apparently not prescriptive.
Like GM Farol, I thought increased size came with increased reach by default, so this is a bit of an eye opener for me too.
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Is there enough room in the squares to the North and East of the skeleton for one of the PCs to fit? Looks to me like those squares are more than 50% clear. If so, can a PC move diagonally from the East square to the North square without going through the skeleton?
This probably got lost in all the Reach discussion, but as I'm putting together Mandoo/Libitina's next turn, it would be nice to know if she has the option of moving around (or possibly tumbling through) the skeleton to get behind it.
@Mandoo - I answered it here but it got into the chain of reach posts ;) Yeah, I saw that question on Opo.
@Granitt - Woolly? I think it translates to: hairy in US English ;). I never heard the expression Woolly in that sense. Nice!
@Sindarin - no worries, nothing to be sorry about. Not specifying your action makes it a bit harder for me to check if your action usage is correct.
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With regards to Reach - thanks for raising this, as it seems that my understanding was wrong ;) Fortunately, none of the PC that I GM'ed for the fight with bulettes died :D
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On the same note, I am not a great fan of discussion over rules. I saw people spending plenty of time and posts to quote rules, google anatomy of species and their type of attacks etc. I am here to have fun, and provide a fun game to you. I will misinterpret the rules and run game with errors, I do make bad calls and at times do adjustments to encounters if something does not make sense. I try to avoid all of the above and correct my future games with what I learned.
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@Mandoo - I answered it here but it got into the chain of reach posts ;) Yeah, I saw that question on Opo.
Ah, so you did. My bad. It was the very last post of the first page and I missed it.
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I had to delete my turn and reconsider. Libtina moved to where she would still be in the cone.
Ah, sorry about that. The lack of coordination between players is a downside of PbP vs TT. It may not be too late to change things though. In an ideal world, where would you like her to move? Is directly West of the skeleton better? She can Step there instead. But assuming the skeleton went down, she could Stride up to 25' away without risking AoO. She's not going to be much use against the swarm anyway.
GM Farol, is it ok if we change Libitina's final location?
My apologies for meddling in the discussion. I'm sorry if that wasn't wanted/needed.
Hey, mate. You have nothing to apologize for, every table that I ran I want it to be open for anyone to speak up. If I cut off the discussion in a harsh manner, it was not my intention!
I value your opinion, and it gave me the perspective of another person on that topic, so it was valuable and wanted.
I simply did not want us to spend too much time on this topic, as that matter in this scenario is not that important ;)
I hope no one holds a grudge against me! [book of grudges was nurtured by dwarves in Warhammer]
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@Mandoo - sure, feel free to change the positioning of Libitina,
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Brook is a superstar. Does she still take full damage if she crit succeeded?
Assuming that we're dealing here with a Basic Saving Throw, then:
Critical Success You take no damage from the spell, hazard, or effect that caused you to attempt the save.
Success You take half the listed damage from the effect.
Failure You take the full damage listed from the effect.
Critical Failure You take double the listed damage from the effect.
My wife and I are moving on Monday for 3 months. It will consume our whole weekend and probably Monday. So I will probably post for the last time on Friday and then another time on Tuesday.
It could happen that everything will go smoothly and I will have hours to kill in front of the PC ;) But I don't count on that.
I hope everything goes as smoothly as possible!
@Sindarin It is still dark in there ;) Duergars do not need light.
@Dorgen - Regarding thieves tools, I would say no sorry. I don't want to be a do**hebag but the whole point of exploring ruins is to either be prepared or have ways how to bypass those limitations. I double-checked you will not miss any content by not having the tools with you.
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Thanks for the good wishes
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@Dorgen - Regarding thieves tools, I would say no sorry. I don't want to be a do**hebag but the whole point of exploring ruins is to either be prepared or have ways how to bypass those limitations. I double-checked you will not miss any content by not having the tools with you.
Completely fair, figured it was a long shot anyway. :)
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It's so cool!
Am I reading the hint correctly that we are not meant to follow up on the forge quest right now? For RP reasons, Sindarin would strongly want to figure out what is going on here, but he knows there is also a present threat they need to address. Is there a way to come back to this later?
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Yeah, it is out of the scope of this scenario ;) The previous one, Into the Pallid Peaks, had corridors leading outside of the map that was similarly handled ;)
An interesting fact, the information about the special was shared around the time when I posted it here => there were people who played/run this scenario without knowing that there would be a continuation, but the scenario itself gives a hint that there would be.
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And as it happens I forgot to give HP out ;) I will give first one to Dorgen for deciphering the journal, there are two versions of them (one for crit failing the other for success), which one do you have ;) we will see.
I shall give the next HP next week. Just an FYI starting at 24th of April I will take some time off, this will impact my hours of posting and may my frequency, so I will try to push the table as far as I can before that date, to minimize the negative impact of my vacation on your experience. We will see how it goes :D
No worries, classes have their mechanics, and ways of doing things. A lot of people forget to hunt prey. I meant to give you change to hunt prey in the past round.
so 1st action: hunt prey new skeleton
2nd command animal
3rd: attack
In reality it would not change anything, as your animal attacked once, and you would attack once, but for the next rounds it could make a difference.
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@All I will wait for Granitt today, the past weekend was Easter and Passover. I am less eager to bot folks during holidays.
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At 1d10+6 hp of damage per round with a Reflex +6 saving throw vs DC 20 means that on average, Libitina will take 12 hp of damage per round from the pool and another 5 hp of damage from each of the oozes that attacks her. Since critical hits don't work against the oozes, Libitina can only expect to inflict about 10 hp of damage against them each round. As they appear to have around 30 hp each, that is just not sustainable. It's already required two of my Hero Points and a Heal spell to keep her in the fight and so far only one ooze has gone down.
Our best approach right now is to retreat back into the hallway out of range of the pool and use ranged attacks to get rid of the oozes. If the oozes follow us into the hallway, then great, we can take them there without worrying about the pool. Once the oozes are gone, then I'm afraid that Sindarin will need to make as many attempts as necessary to disable the pool (he's the only one of us with Survival) while the rest of us keep him alive with Battle Medicine and Heal spells.
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That works for me! I backed him off the pool because his chance of success was low and he couldn't keep taking damage like that without full support. But if he has the opportunity to take breaks in between, that should be fine. Having said that - do we *need* to disable the pool once the oozes are gone? Then we can just avoid it, right?
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That works for me! I backed him off the pool because his chance of success was low and he couldn't keep taking damage like that without full support. But if he has the opportunity to take breaks in between, that should be fine. Having said that - do we *need* to disable the pool once the oozes are gone? Then we can just avoid it, right?
The chance of success for an unenhanced Sindarin is 25%, so on average it should take you about 3 rounds to disable it. If we can get some Guidance spells going (anyone?) and/or use your 2 Hero Points for re-rolls, we can reduce the time it takes.
As to leaving the pool alone, there are a couple of problems. First, we need to get past the pool in order to get to those other exits, which means that one or all of us will trigger an attack and take some damage on the way through. Second, our mission involves clearing out this whole area and making it safe for future Pathfinders to explore, so leaving a dangerous acid pool around isn't going to work.
I pm'ed granitt as he seems to be away, anyone interested in boting him?
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I pm'ed granitt as he seems to be away, anyone interested in boting him?
I can bot him if you like, but at this point I think the plan is to retreat back to the hallway and kill off the oozes from range before Sindarin goes in to disable the pool. Not a lot for Granitt to do really except look pretty.
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I'm going to delay until Sindarin posts his disable attempt before deciding what to do. Basically though, Mandoo and Libitina don't have a lot to do here.
Dorgen's Guidance gives Sindarin a +1 status bonus to his next disable attempt. A successful DC 20 Aid roll would add a +1 circumstance bonus to that, but I do not recommend that anyone try it. With our sorry Survival numbers we are waaay more likely to crit fail and give him a -1 penalty instead.
Sindarin gets 3 actions per turn. 2 of those actions are the disable attempt, which means that he can use the last action to Stride. He will need to Stride in and Disable on one round, then Disable and Stride out on the next, which means that he only gets poisoned every other round. Mandoo has a couple of Heal spells available to keep Sindarin on his feet, and Mrs Perkins appears to have a couple of Soothes ready to go as well. After that we're down to using healing potions.
I thought about having Libitina go in and drag Sindarin out of range, but the Dragging rules are such that one cannot drag people around (or very far) within the time constraints of a single round.
Yeah let us skip rolling with the poison, it lasts only 4 rounds (stage 1: 1d10 dmg, stage 2: 1d12 dmg, stage 3: 2d10). So worst it can do is to bring you to dying 2 (without any help from your friends).
If it suits your RP needs go ahead and resolve the poison.
But effectively with LoH and fast-heal from Mrs. Perkins we will hand-wave the healing