DM Voomer's Age of Ashes

Game Master Voomer

:(

I tried to warn about the risk of staying close to the butchers...

I've been hesitant to intervene too directly with recommendations... I do think a TPK can be avoided, but you all probably need to leave people behind and, after resting, return with a new strategy that perhaps takes advantage of an unexplored potential ally (albeit situational). I have no intention of killing unconscious characters where their players are committed to the campaign.

Perhaps I should have had some kind of divine intervention in the battle, but my general approach is to let the dice fall where they may and then to pick up the narrative pieces so the story can continue. That element of chance and real consequences is part of TTRPGs I think. I'm committed to the campaign (Yasami's joke aside!) and I think we can have an interesting next narrative stage in the party's engagement with the mine if the surviving PCs actually retreat. (For example, it is kind of intriguing to think of Caiten as a prisoner with Sulee still attached to him.)

I'm not usually such a major metagamer, but low morale and the TPK risk justify it!

My impression/understanding is that all five of you (I'm not including Cev in that count) are committed to the campaign. If so, let's keep hope alive and see how the story develops. But if one of the remaining 5 of you is not committed, it would be good to know at this point.

I think part of how this got so screwy is me taking over after the scene had been set and your plan had been made. In retrospect, maybe I should have pushed you to reconsider your plan in a couple respects (at least I got rid of the second vrock!). But I think it's ok -- RPGs are like this, stories go in unexpected directions. If we all stick with it, we may look back at this as pretty epic, with two truly heroic deaths and an interesting second act to come...

p.s. I should also note that I'm open to feedback about how I've been handling things as a GM, so feel free to sharing in that respect as well.

p.p.s. And, it should be acknowledged that this IS a pretty gnarly fight. My home gaming group had a very hard time with the vrock solo, and then a very intense battle around the mine (made more difficult but a reckless goblin PC jumping into the pit). PF2e is designed for consecutive battles with time to heal in between, but the module writers aren't always the best at designing encounters that maintain that staging (depending on what PCs do).

:(

I tried to warn about the risk of staying close to the butchers...

There really isn't much opportunity for doing anything else though.

PF2 isn't very forgiving for badly balanced encounters - which this one is. That isn't your fault, Voomer. The game devs have admitted their mistakes on Age of Ashes. A CR+3 enemy is not a heroic battle. It is a war of attrition - can we do enough chip damage to it before it finishes killing our last character. Add a player-party-size number of CR+0 allies to the enemy team and there is absolutely no hope for success.

But from our end, without metagaming horribly there is no way to know how dangerous a battle is going to be. And once the battle is started, having characters go down in one enemy turn makes it so that there is really no way to recover or retreat gracefully. We don't have enough HP or actions to do anything useful. We can't pick up our other characters. We can't do any damage as we leave. All we can do is abandon our allies and run for the hills.

Which I suppose is a valid tactic, but it doesn't feel very good. And it isn't likely to be the player's first choice - but we don't have time for a second one.

We have been scrambling to find a viable plan B for a while now, and this is the best that we have come up with. Plan B didn't work either.

-----

Yes, I am still committed to the game. It has taken a battering, but there are still good people and good characters here.

If we can come up with some sort of plan that makes sense, I am open to it.

I hear you. I think in game it could occur to your characters that Hezle is unlikely to execute surviving unconscious characters because Belmazog would probably want to interrogate for info about the Ekujae. It also would reasonably occur to the group that Belmazog seems to be some distance away, providing a window for overnight recovery and then an attempt to rescue characters left behind.

But, yeah, it's always super hard to leave allies behind unless you absolutely HAVE to. The need to do so is now clear to the conscious party members at this point (Yasami: at least a full round action to stuff an ally into a bag of holding). I'm curious if you all have any creative ideas about how to discourage the charau-ka from pursuing you into the jungle. You're not sure whether they would or not, but you do know that discouragement could only help...

Caiten, you can go ahead and post for Dario again, but he should use his actions to attack rather than to prevent his imminent heroic death... He doesn't think the sabosan in front of him has the combat finesse to have an AoO. He also thinks the charau-ka seem more committed to the whole enterprise than the sabosan does...

We would also have to recognize Hezle for who she is in the midst of battle and be able to process that when all of our allies are falling around us...but I think the need to leave is definitely obvious after Caiten was taken down.

I (player) have never been great at strategy so no, I don't really have much creativity to discourage them from following beyond like...it not being worth pursuing us since we're all such a wreck and they have plenty of our party to interrogate while we're off licking our wounds in massively reduced numbers.

I am 100% still committed to the game and would like to keep going!

Thanks, Catalina. I'm glad you're still committed. I think it's going to be ok.

Don't worry if you don't have any ideas for the retreat. Really, it's the spellcasters (hi, Lisi!) who have the higher likelihood to have useful options, but I wanted to at least throw out the question more broadly in case anyone had a non-spell-based ideas.

As for Hezle, she has no idea who you are and that you met/helped the Thornscales; you're just unknown attackers. And you're right it's not really possible to get a good read on her in the heat of combat.

Et tu Brute moment?

We'll see where this gets us.

Still here, still wanting to go on. Just not sure if this encounter will allow us to.

Also still wanting to go on.

Yes, it's your impression that none of the boggards or charau-ka speak common, and you think it's likely Hezle speaks at least some, but Yasami thinks there's no chance to convince Hezle of anything in the middle of a combat like this. A seed has been planted though.

What is the effect of your first aid? Oren was already stable at zero. My concern now is that you have put a target on your back now with the charau-ka that are nearby.

I know you want to save your friends and it's a bit of metagaming to run and hope it will be all right, but given that this encounter was a little disadvantaged with a GM change and party drop outs, I think its ok to metagame a bit.

I think its fair enough to say that Yasami can see that Oren is stable and not about to die.

I'll let you revise your action if you want, because I think it would be helpful to have Yasami around to help Lisi and Catalina in the next stage of things...

Could be wrong, but I'm assuming that Yasami's intent is to be captured with everyone else

I see. That would explain it. But I don't think you all need to assume everyone is going to be captured. The thick jungle awaits to possibly cover a retreat. From your characters' perspective, there's no way the charau-ka aren't going to mob you in the open next to the mine, but they may not fully commit to a chase through the jungle, especially if Lisi uses spells to complicate the chase. So certainly if Yasami was effectively just surrendering, she should feel free to revise to retreat. Her words to Hezle -- very well done with that by the way -- may also change the pursuit behavior of the cultists.

It doesn't have to be story ending either way, but it may be a little more interesting from a roleplaying and narrative perspective with some of you captured and some not. Seems like it's easier to split the party in PbP!

Oren was the only one within 1 stride distance. I also thought he still has persitent bleed?

It is, essentially, a plea for mercy. And at the same time giving Lisi and Catalina time to book it.

I get it, and I understand the self-sacrifice, but Yasami can flee too, especially with the seed of doubt you just planted in Hezle's mind (again, good idea to take advantage of the linguistic dynamic). Lisi and Catalina go before the charau-ka, so if they retreat and Lisi puts up some sort of obstacle... One way to look at it from Yasami's perspective is that she probably really feels like Lisi and Catalina are going to need her help, both her abilities and her hard earned life experience, so she's not retreating to save herself...

And as for the persistent damage, I told Oren that using all the hero points makes that stop. I don't know if that's RAW, but that's how I'm going to play it.

And as for the persistent damage, I told Oren that using all the hero points makes that stop. I don't know if that's RAW, but that's how I'm going to play it.

It's not - but it is a very good houserule. Dying + persistent damage is harsh and RAW Hero Points won't do anything.

Hmmm.

Okay. In that case, I won't be the person who can't take a hint when the GM goes 'Are you suuuuuure?'

If he is not bleeding, let's say Yasami said what she said to Hezle, ran past Oren, quickly (visually) checked if he is not bleeding, and darted into the treeline.

Got it. Please move yourself on the map and put your retcon in the gameplay thread and then I'll put up the groups for the next round. No need to spend an action to check on Oren's condition. Yasami can see he's not bleeding with her trained eye as she runs past.

Caiten, I agree. It doesn't seem right a PC can use all hero points to be stable at zero with no wounded condition and then almost immediately be back at dying 1 after taking persistent damage and then having the wounded condition if the PC recovers.

As is, persistent damage seems like it might be the deadliest thing in the game.

As is, persistent damage seems like it might be the deadliest thing in the game.

High level afflictions can do similar and are sometimes even harder to get rid of. But they also often have hard counters such as Neutralize Poison and Remove Curse. And lower level afflictions aren't very scary.

A Vrock - or anything with a Good damage weakness - should seriously consider fleeing combat against a level 9 Reedemer Champion.

As I recall, in Pathfinder 1.0, any healing stopped bleeding, which I understand is not the case in PF2e, so that alone made bleeding WAY more threatening. And the action tax to try to get a 50% chance of stopping the persistent damage can be really hard to swallow!

the action tax to try to get a 50% chance of stopping the persistent damage can be really hard to swallow!

Another houserule that I have seen used is to split up Assisted Recovery.

RAW is 2 actions to both reduce the DC to 10 and to get an extra check to remove the damage right then (before the next time damage happens).

The houserule is to use one action for either of the effects - either reducing the DC to 10 or to get the immediate check. Or you could still spend both actions to get both effects just like RAW.

For the record, we spoke draconic with the kobolds and some broken common. But mostly draconic.

The houserule is to use one action for either of the effects - either reducing the DC to 10 or to get the immediate check. Or you could still spend both actions to get both effects just like RAW.

Very interesting. Not a small change, but interesting.

For the record, we spoke draconic with the kobolds and some broken common. But mostly draconic.

That makes more sense. Fortunately, Hezle is a more educated kobold...

Caiten wrote:

The houserule is to use one action for either of the effects - either reducing the DC to 10 or to get the immediate check. Or you could still spend both actions to get both effects just like RAW.

Very interesting. Not a small change, but interesting.

Yeah. Was a lifesaver in Fall of Plaguestone - that has a lot of persistent damage. Persistent bleed and persistent acid being the most common.

We haven't seen a lot of persistent damage in AoA really. So probably not necessary.

I can get all of the near enemies, but I will also deal damage to Caiten, unless there's some rule that unconscious androids breathe in smoke less. :P

Not that I'm aware of! If he takes damage while dying it increases his dying value, so that's to be avoided. I don't know how many enemies you'd miss, but it's not a game changing amount of damage (the butchers are tough!) and it seems like the main functional purpose is to discourage pursuit. For that purpose, better to have most (if not all) of the ash IN the jungle. As you have it, if anyone decides to move towards the jungle they will rapidly find themselves in the clear.

I think the even more constructed Ancestries like Poppet and Automaton have to do the equivalent of breathe. Some don't have to eat or sleep.

doing damage to Caiten would probably not be fatal. I am expecting to have to use my lone remaining hero point. Currently only at Dying 1 if I am calculating correctly.

K10 ... ? You there ... ?

I thought because I know you know, well, almost everything, I would ask you if there is a good consolidated article or post or something about dying in Pathfinder. I guess I need to be specific and say 2nd Edition Death, not to have it confused with the cosmology of 1st Edition Death.

Like there are bits and pieces everywhere, even the Vrock is a reborn soul, but I really just wondered if it's all rolled up in one place or publication somewhere.

Thanks :)

Not really. Not that I am aware of, anyway. Just the entries for Pharasma and the Boneyard.

A thought just struck me. Ash Cloud last for a while and does damage each round, yes? Probably not a good idea to have that covering any unconcious active players.

Yes. It lasts for 1 minute and does 2d4 each round. Any unconscious party member in there is as good as dead.

They can't say anything about our plans if they're DEAD!

- Lisi, probably

Legal reasons, joke, and so on and so forth.

I'm hoping the warglets can pick me up gently in their slavering jaws. -Tiny Lisi

I guess it will be time for an infiltration on the next game day, with Lisi as a small animal, gnawing on ropes of tied up characters...if they are tied up...if they are alive. Whew!

Might center it there. Directly south of Lisi and west of Caiten. It might cover escape better and also doesn't hit any of the PCs - alive or otherwise.

Might center it there. Directly south of Lisi and west of Caiten. It might cover escape better and also doesn't hit any of the PCs - alive or otherwise.

Done. We'll get you out.

So I just wanted to double check:

Dario's player is leaving the game and Dario is d-e-d.

Joran's player left and Joran's character is handwaved out (maybe he went to go look for pancakes)(I envy him)

Cev is dying--does his player want to stay in the game? What's the ruling on players whose characters die--do they get to create a new character? An Ekujae who happens to be around, maybe? Not that Lisi plans to die today.

Oren is unconscious and committed to teh game, Catalina has r-u-n-n-o-f-t, and Yasami has said, "Fly, you fools!" and jetted off as well. Do I have it?

That seems just about right. I'll do a post later today wrapping things up. I'm assuming the ash cloud is centered around the red circle, which seems fine. Lisi knows the worg puppies aren't anywhere close (those goofs just don't know stealth!), so Lisi will have to see if any charau-ka burst into the hot firey ashiness looking for him...

Cev is dying--does his player want to stay in the game?

No one knows. He's been asked twice if he wishes to continue (once directly when he was downed, once when it became apparent that those conscious will have to flee) and he hasn't responded either time.

In direct messages to me he has essentially stated that he does not intend to continue. I suggested he say something to you all here in the discussion thread; we'll see if he does.

Tbh, I was interpreting his silence when asked about continuing to be an answer of no.

Congrats on surviving folks! Oren and Caiten are unconscious but stable (Caiten: I forget whether you rolled recoveries or used your hero points but hero points will reset anyways, so it doesn't matter). Dario is clearly dead because the Sabosan is feeding on him. Cev looks dead, but you can't be sure.

Any other questions?

A couple.

What is the basic plot of the story at this point? Do Oren and I try to escape? Do the others jailbreak us? Or are we doing hostage negotiations? Maybe something else that I am not thinking of.

With Sulee being a tattoo (and staying that way for as long as possible) do the captors realize that she is there?

Also, I am assuming that they are confiscating all of our equipment. But it would be good to know that officially.

Lisi, Yasami - what are you thinking for how to intersect with one another? Catalina would probably bolt for their last camping spot.

Caiten, those questions will be answered in time, but I think it's fair for you to assume you will be tied up, separated from your equipment, heavily guarded, and not healed. I don't see an easy way for the cultists to know about Sulee if she really just looks like a tattoo and can stay in that form indefinitely.

I'm most immediately interested in having the three conscious characters do some narration and roleplay, because the ball is in their court. Just to be clear: you do not think that going back to Akrivel is an option; it is clear to you that if you are going to help your friends you can't do more than rest overnight before taking action.

Once we hear from those three, and we do any necessary back and forth, I will do a post setting out the scene for Caiten and Oren when they wake up.

The tattoo form can last at least until the next morning. If it needs to last longer than that we may need to work out whether keeping the same abilities works to keep her in that state, or whether she has to drop out of it for full daily preparations.

I will get something substantial posted by this evening - have a lot of work to get through and groceries to pick up/chores to do before I can do fun things. :(

As a preview, Catalina will be heading toward their last camping spot and hoping that Lisi and Yasami have the same idea.

Lisi and the warglets would absolutely track Catalina back to the camp.

The warglets are AT the camp. I didn't let you bring them if you wanted any possibility of stealth. They aren't really very trained, as I understand. Lisi, probably you and I should discuss your view of them in game terms... So I'm sure that would be the natural place for all of you to go.

You might also want to keep in mind that the baby elephant fled into the jungle as well. As did the mokele-mbembe, but Lisi thinks that creature is likely to make for the river to recover.

Caiten, you will definitely wake up before the next day's preparations, but you're unlikely to be rescued before then, so I think we will need to figure out what happens to the Sulee tattoo in that event. Interested in your thoughts and then I'll research as well.

One question: are you all using the free archetype variant rule? I was going to suggest considering using it, but it looks from Lisi's Pathbuilder sheet that maybe you all are already using it? I'm a forever GM, so you'll have to excuse the ignorance of that question...

Yes, we are using both Free Archetype and Ancestry Paragon.

Not using Automatic Bonus Progression though. So we are equipment dependent.

I'll get to Sulee stuff when I get a bit more time. Working currently.