Into the Desolation

Game Master Zorblag

Custom Items open the door to potential abuse....

However, when item properties can be easily identified I have NO problem with it in fact it seems wrong not to allow it.

For example: the cost of the lesser Hurling enchantment can be easily quantified
belt strength +2=4k
belt might hurling lesser(+2str + hurling property)=14k

hurling property=8k

hurling property 8k + 1.5x(4k)belt str+2=14k

IMHO this is NOT a custom item.

So if I wanted to create a +4 physical perfection belt (str, dex, con) 64k with the lesser hurling property the formula would be

64k (+4 belt perfection) +1.5x(8k lesser hurling property)=76k

I don't view that as a custom item. As its price is easily derived from existing items

To play devil's advocate, one issue becomes loading up item slots with more power than they would normally have. There's a pretty big difference between having to choose between the belt of physical perfection and the belt of lesser hurling and spending a bit more (or not, really, with item creation feats,) to have both in the same item.

It's not one that I'm too worried about at this point, but I also don't feel a strong need to have it in the game. Again, I'll go with what the group wants here.

The idea that 1.5x is fair for getting a free slot is ridiculous IMO.

If you look at the Ioun stones which allow stat bumps without taking the stat slot, they are double the price.

For example:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/deep-re d-sphere-ioun-stone/

But I'm done arguing. The GM will rule as he decides is fit.

Are fetchllings allowed? I’m considering a fetchling wild blooded umbral sorcerer. If allowed, I’ll put something together tomorrow.

@Lomyldyr, I'm going to say no to Fetchlings due to power level, sorry. They can do neat things, just too many of them to be a good fit for this campaign.

And because I want to go with group preference which seems split, do you have a strong opinion on crafting magic items that you'd care to share?

magical tattoos

tldr: if you dont like the rules of combining items...slotless tattoos can be gotten although at 2x price instead of 1.5x for the combined item

edit: some throwing builds NEED a blinkback belt...but ALL characters NEED belts that boost stats. making the throwing build that needs the blinkback belt forgo the needed stat boost item just sucks

Throwing builds are kind of a pain to build in Pathfinder and that doesn't help. Let me sleep on it as well as seeing if Lomyldyr or pad300 have any thoughts on the topic (and if we're lucky, Baltor!)

I strongly considered using Automatic Bonus Progression which would have avoided a lot of the drive to combine items like we're discussing (and would have made a decision easy,) but if I did I'd need to totally rework the loot in Slumbering Tsar and I decided that was beyond the scope of my interest/ability.

I might have an idea for a houserule starting to percolate, but like I said, let me sleep on it and give others a chance to speak up.

I'm running a home game of RA (just started so I am not reading ahead of our RA campaign here- yet it is likely to be inevitable, but I can separate my knowledge from PC, and I'm playing a drunk anyway), and using the ABP (base level). I figure I can keep the magic simple. Just all the loot that would be covered by ABP doesn't exist. Seems easy enough to me.

*chuckles* Fair enough. It would be a way to avoid this particular issue, though it might require a rework of your character at this point? I don't know how viable crafting seems to you as a smith if it's what we're going with?

Would that be a solution that everyone could agree to?

I can just turn on ABP in Hero Lab and switch craft arms and armor to craft wondrous items. Minimal effort.

ABP makes it easy just remove all stat belts and headbands, cloaks of prot, ring deflection, Amulets NA etc...from the AP

It should not require any additional work to run the AP

But it still requires deducing the cost of certain items

for example a belt that gives the lesser hurling property would cost
(8k)x1.5 (assuming it would be added to the ABP stat boosting belt)

and if you want to add the properties of a Belt of Superior Manevuers +1 that would cost (2k)x1.5

So assuming the normal stat bonuses through ABP
adding Lesser Hurling (12k) and Superior Maneuvers+1 (3k) would cost a total of.....15k

@WabbitHuntr, well, I'm not yet completely convinced that simply removing all the ABP bonus items leaves the treasure balanced, but I can work with that behind the scenes to my satisfaction without it bothering anyone else.

What I'm proposing would be that the belt of lesser hurling would keep it's normal cost if we went with ABP as the stat boost doesn't count towards the waist slot anymore; it'd just be the belt of lesser hurling. (Unless someone has a source that says that's not how ABP is expected to work.)

Doing this would be with the intention of not allowing the combination of properties for the remaining wondrous items, so there wouldn't be a belt of lesser hurling and superior maneuvers. That'd be back to the case where you need to choose one or the other.

WBL would be halved, so starting gold would drop to 11,750 for character creation, but that's balanced by not having to buy the big 6 items or spend extra to combine other magical properties with them.

Ah, wait, perhaps I see the issue you're bringing up with the first part of the lesser belt of minor hurling. It would need it's cost adjusted down because it normally provides a strength bonus. That's easy enough to do on a case by case basis. In this case the normal cost is 14000, and the +2 str would have been contributing 4000 on it's own, which is clearly the lower cost given the total amount, so it would have multiplied by 1.5. That means that had we been constructing it the Str component of the cost would have been 6000, so the remaining hurling aspects of the belt would be 8000 (which happily seems to be the number you arrived at.) There's no need to multiply that by 1.5 after under the proposed system.

Is that what you were bringing up with the first part or have I misunderstood twice?

OK, remade him to deal with ABP. It does cost some, but I've managed to get adamantine full plate in place, which is a good thing since crafting it later is a major bear timewise. It will eventually be very nice (and DR 3/ isn't bad even now). AC is a lot lower though. Almost did gloves of dueling now, but that would have eaten well over 50% on one item which I don't believe to be kosher.

Initial thoughts on a gnome arcane sorcerer

OK, after having slept on it I do think that I want to go with Automatic Bonus Progression.

The following changes will apply:

Starting gold will be 11,750, no more than half of which can be spent on any one item.

Items that only provide bonuses to AC, saving throws and statistics longer exist. Items that used to have one of the bonuses listed along with others will have their cost reduced on a case by case basis to remove the cost of whatever part of their description has been removed.

Non-magical armor and weapons can be attuned normally using the ABP system (so you'll start with one +1 piece of armor and one +1 weapon by default at level 7.) For armor and weapons with other properties we'll use the capacity system described in the Unleashing Unchained blog post. When magic weapons or armor are bought, crafted or discovered they'll have a capacity listed.

When crafting or buying magic items other than weapons and armor custom items are not allowed, including the properties of different magic items from the same slot.

@drbuzzard, that looks good to me.

@Lomyldyr, that looks good as well. I was trying to figure out why your movement was 0 and you weren't getting the correct dex to AC bonus, but then realized it was all that gold you're carrying! After reducing it to the 11,750 for ABP (and adding in the bonuses you're entitled to,) be sure to spend it so you can move (though not buying the gear when floating the concept is clearly understandable!)

Ah, wait, perhaps I see the issue you're bringing up with the first part of the lesser belt of minor hurling. It would need it's cost adjusted down because it normally provides a strength bonus. That's easy enough to do on a case by case basis. In this case the normal cost is 14000, and the +2 str would have been contributing 4000 on it's own, which is clearly the lower cost given the total amount, so it would have multiplied by 1.5. That means that had we been constructing it the Str component of the cost would have been 6000, so the remaining hurling aspects of the belt would be 8000 (which happily seems to be the number you arrived at.) There's no need to multiply that by 1.5 after under the proposed system.

Is that what you were bringing up with the first part or have I misunderstood twice?

You have it correct. The lesser Hurling property would cost 8k. I was mistaken, there is no need to multiply it by 1.5 when adding it to ABP.

@WabbitHuntr, if you're looking to make a throwing build (which I think you might be,) I'll house rule something to make ABP work with the fact that you're going to need to have access to multiple thrown weapons with the magic trait. Let me think about it after you've got a build that we're both happy with. My inclination would be something like letting you attune to 4 pieces of thrown ammo as long as you're not using them to dual wield at other times, but I'd want to make sure that didn't have any obvious consequences I'm not thinking of.

If I go with the Starknife Bard throwing build. I pretty much only need one starknife and a blinkback belt.

If I go with the Sharding weapon build I would need a belt of lesser Hurling which we've established the cost as 8k

When crafting or buying magic items other than weapons and armor custom items are not allowed, including the properties of different magic items from the same slot.

Would the Lesser Hurling property count as a custom item? Or would it be allowed as the cost of it is easily discernable?

Will magical tattoos be allowed?

Since adding more than one item to a slot with the normal 1.5x cost will not be allowed. I am seriously thinking about getting a magical tattoo of Belt of Superior Maneuvers+1...normally it costs 2k but it will cost 4k as a tattoo.

Magical tattoos are extremely expensive and because of this are really only viable for very low-cost items. A Typical example of magical tattoos would be muleback cords (for low str characters)

OK, that's good to hear as neither of those sound like they would take an adjustment. If something does I'm open to making it work though.

For the Lesser Hurling aspect, I assume you'd be using the Lesser Belt of Mighty Hurling with the strength bonus removed (using the exception for custom items being removing the bonuses that ABP takes out.) Removing the strength bonus would leave the cost at the expected 8K.

I think that I'm going to say no to magical tattoos; I want to go with that choosing what you want the slot to do for you keeping in line with not wanting to create high powered characters to fit with the theme of the adventure.

Ok a couple of Q's
1) @Wabbithuntr, it sounds like you're going with the bard after all. If you do so, I am going to revisit my original Hunter/ranger concept...
2) At that point, @Zorblag, I need to know how does ABP work with animal companions?

Hmm, Animal Companions don't work well with ABP by default do they?

Perhaps let's try the following:

You can split the ABP bonuses you receive between yourself and your animal companion however you like by default. If you're getting +2 resistance bonuses you can have +2 for you, +1 for each or +2 for your animal. This can be set at the start of each day.

Additionally, items that would normally not be allowed under ABP (amulets of mighty fists and the like,) can be purchased (and only work) for animal companions as they would under non-ABP rules, but the cap on bonuses is the same as the bonus that ABP would grant at a given level. E.g. When you're level 8 your pet could have a +2 AOMF, and when you hit 14 that could go up to +3. If the Animal companion receives bonuses this way they wouldn't stack with the bonuses from ABP you might be splitting with them.

Alright guys... Thanks for bearing with me. The builds I've been mulling over have been complicated with lots of moving parts.

Instead I'll be going with the bard.

The proposed sorcerer needs someone to handle knowledge skills. This bard will also take care of DD unless someone else wants that role. And can also be specced to handle survival if needed.

Human
Far strike monk 2
Lore oracle 1
Bard 2
Evangelist 2 of Tykee {equivalent of Desna)

I've got survival skill maxxed out on Grof. He's not loaded with skills (he is a fighter after all), but survival, perception, and his crafts are all good.

OK, so at this point we've got a dorn-dergar figher, an arcance sorcerer, a starknife throwing bard/// and probably a hunter/ranger of some sort. I don't know if Baltor is going to find the thread or be interested in joining us, so I'd like to see about reaching out to find someone who would be interested in playing a divine caster type (ideally a cleric, oracle or shaman I'd think) because it'd be unkind of me to send you into this adventure without one.

I could open a recruitment thread up, but first I'd like to see if any of you know anyone through your play that you think would be a good fit for the group who might be interested in joining us.

If Baltor does come along at some point he'd certainly be welcome to join as well as just about anything, and that would put us at 5 or 6 players either of which would work well.

I can ask in the game I run.

ok here's the basics so far. ABP has not been taken into account. Let me know if this is acceptable.

Human CG Evangelist of Tykee (Goddess of Luck=Desna)

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 20 (17+2race +1lvl)

fcb Bard: will be used for additional spells and masterpieces known

ac:22.....10+4 mage armor(cast by our Sorcerer using Pearl of Power)+1 wis +5Cha +1Dodge +1Protective Grace

Fractionl Bonuses
bab:5.25
fort:6.............4(4/6)+2con
ref:10 Evasion.....5(2/6)+5cha
will:6.............5+1wis

Traits
Irrepresible:Benefit(s): You can use your Charisma modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier when attempting Will saving throws against charm and compulsion effects.

Voices of Solid Things
Source Legacy of the First World pg. 3
Category Region
Requirement(s) Witchmarket
You traveled with the Witchmarket for a time, either willingly or as a result of a bargain made by some other buyer. In your time in the Witchmarket, you learned to listen to the whispers of items as though they were living creatures, giving you clues as to their function. Choose Appraise, Craft, Disable Device, or Spellcraft. You apply your Charisma modifier on checks with that skill instead of the skill’s normal ability score. That skill is a class skill for you.

Human:
Focused Study: Skill Focus DD
Skilled:+1skill rank/lvl

Far Strike Monk 2
Wis to ac
Flurry of Throws
proficiency all thrown weapons
Evasion

Oracle 1, Seeker
Mystery: Lore
Curse: Covetous
Revelation: Sidestep Secret (Cha to ac and ref)
Tinkering (DD as class skill, can be used on magic traps) +1 to DD and Perception vs traps
armor prof medium
shield prof

Bard 2
Countersong
Bardic Knowledge
Distraction
Inspire Courage +1
Well-Versed
Versatile Performance 1: Oratory (Sense Motive, Diplomacy)

Evangelist 2
Aligned CLass=Bard
bonus class skill, Fly, + one more
Protective Grace +1

Feats:
1
race:Skill Focus Disable Device
Noble Scion of War (Cha to init)
Monk bf: Dodge, quick draw, IUS

2
Monk bf: Precise Shot

3
DIvine Fighting Technique: Desnas/Tykees SHooting Star (Cha to hit and dam with Starknife)

5
Deific Obedience (req for Evangelist prestige class)

7
Extra Revelation: Lore Keeper (cha to knowledge skills)

Magic items
Circlet of Persuasion 4.5k
Masterwork Thieves tools 200gp
Pearl of Power 1rst 1k
blinkback belt 5k
total=10.7k

Will make extensive use of https://aonprd.com/BardMasterpieces.aspx
Please review the ones I will take and let me know if you have any issues with them

5th: Triple Time
8th: Dirge of the Torn Sail
11th: Arrowsongs Lament used to learn Mage Armor
12th: Hymn of Restorative Harmonics
13th: Symphony of the Elysian Heart
14th: Dance of 23 Steps, The Waning Bolero
15th: Canticle of Joy
16th: Symphony of Ascent
17th: Clamor of the Heavens, Symphony of the Dark Prince

That looks like it's probably all fine except for the Symphony of the Dark Prince (the fact that it's a swift action at that point, there's no save much of the time and it can be done far more often than the equivalent spell could be cast by a full caster together make it too much.)

If we go 4 person, I would move back to the unsworn shaman build...

Not sure if this module is like RA, but that one is for 6 people.

Slumbering Tsar claims to be for 4 to 6 characters, but I want that to be either 5 or 6 given the deadly nature of things. I think we'll manage to find someone to play a divine caster.

I posted in my game about this, but that one has slowed down a lot, so they might not be here quickly.

We haven't been at this for too long, so I'm not too worried just yet. If we go long enough without getting a recommendation from someone here to join us I'll open up a general recruitment thread. If that also fails then maybe we'll just drag Lyssa along with us and the group can tell her what to do (so a group botted divine archer.) We'll get something sorted though.

Updated stats are in Grimm's profile. Still needs some work.

You can up your HP to 51, Grimm. 6 for level one, 4 for two through seven and then the 21 from con (and FCB I assume.)

Also, I should have asked earlier whether you plan to use your familiar for just it's bonuses or have it out for scouting/touch spells/whatever else. I'm happy to ignore it on my end if it's just there for the bonuses. If it's out and about then it'll probably be targeted from time to time depending on what it's doing.

About EITR

So Combat expertise is gone. Does that also eat the inherited Int 13 prereq that gets built into a lot of stuff, for example

You and your companion creature are adept at fighting together against foes.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, ability to acquire an animal companion.

Benefit: When you and your companion creature have this feat, your companion creature is adjacent to you or sharing your square, and you both threaten the same opponent, you are both considered to be flanking that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent

https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Pack%20Flanking

I'm fine waiving that requirement for combat and teamwork feats with Combat Expertise and the Int 13 requirement.

@Grimm anyway you can fit mage armor into your known spells?

I've purchased a PoP 1rst to lend to you to account for you casting Mage armor on my armorless bard

Zorblag, I always envision using the familiar, but never really do. It's really just there for the init bonus.

WabbitHuntr, I ended up procuring a wand of Mage armor. It seems that is more efficient than taxing the spell list every day. You're welcome to the wand - 25 days for each of us ought to last awhile.

The problem is that mage armor lasts 1hr/lvl. One charge per one hour of MA.

Assuming an 8hr adventuring day...a 1rst lvl Wand would require 8 charges per day for each of us

that's 16 charges/day...

It'll last 3 days before we're out of Mage Armor

@Grimm Wald, sounds good. I'll plan on not interacting with the familiar unless you end up bringing it out for some particular purpose. The initiative and alertness certainly aren't nothing on their own.

Re: 8 hour adventuring day and resources. I actually wouldn't plan on an 8 hour adventuring day; you'll be doing a lot of overland exploring in the start, so days are likely to be longer than 8 hours if you include the time doing that. I'll be doing my best to indicate times (and dates) in my posts so that there's a good feeling for how much time is passing. I added the calendar we'll be using the campaign info page a while ago (we'll be starting out on Djinsdag, the third of Eostre, so an April 3rd equivalent, and using Northern Hemisphere norms mid to late spring.) The party will need to keep track of spell resources and decide when during the the day things like mage armor are worth using.

You'll also have to decide whether to buy food and water or use spell resources for that (I won't make you make the individual purchases constantly, but we'll know how many days of supplies you have leaving camp each time just in case that comes up, and mark off gold/have one less spell slot as you go to keep track of that.)

You can always buy the wand at a higher caster level to make it last more hours. It would be rather steep though for 8 hours- 6k GP.

Hmm, it's perhaps also worth noting for this discussion that for a Sorcerer you wouldn't use a Pearl of Power (which are for prepared casters,) but rather a Runestone of Power which is a bit pricier.

Looks like I'll give up on Mage Armor for now till I'm able to cast it myself at 11th

Mage armor +4 +1wis=+5 and Flurry of throws

or

Leather armor +2 +1ABP and Buckler+1=+4 and NO FLurry

The leather is one less ac and loses flurry which really hurts, but it lasts all day.

Hey guys, hope I am not intruding... WabbitHuntr dropped me a line regarding this game (we were in brvheart's Rappan Athuk many years back), and told me it was ok to say hi here in Discussion, and talk a bit about what the group and Zorblag are looking for, as a Divine role?

I have some very good memories from playing an Evangelist Reach Cleric with a dash of Summoning, back in the day. But I must admit my first ideas about divine characters where not in that direction - I have been wanting to play a Warpriest Archer, or a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor, or even an Oradin for some time.

Now... I know how tough this game can get, even though the one time I played it (right here on the forums), we never got past The Camp. That being said, there is one thing I want more than playing any of the above ideas, and that is Slumbering Tsar :D

So I wanted to ask what you guys are looking for in the Divine role, and how much the options above put you off (or not)?

Thanks in advance!

Welcome to the thread, Albion! You're more than welcome to join us if you're interested in playing.

As far as divine casters go, I'm not going to tell anyone what character to make, but I will say that the group could probably benefit more from a full divine caster than 2/3 caster given the other characters already involved, especially as we get further into the adventure.

Albion, if you don't want to take the full divine role, I can. I have been trying to kick a build together, but it's just not coming (it has wandered from He-Man [hunter 3 ranger 4] to dino knight to .... ).

If pad300 wants to switch back to the unsworn shaman build then any of the builds that Albion proposed should fit nicely with the rest of the party I'd think and we'd have a good group of 5. I'd still be happy to take one more if there was interest, but we could also run with 5 when everyone's got their builds finished up.

Getting closer to playing is exciting!