Hi there everyone. Just as a heads up I got the first round of the Covid 19 vaccine yesterday and it's wiped me out, so I'm not going to be posting anything in the game until tomorrow.
How you feeling Zorblag? Recover OK? Took me a few days to feel normal after my second shot, and I had a pretty mild reaction, I know some people are laid low by it.
I'm feeling better now, thanks. I've finally got energy today, but I needed to answer student questions before getting to the game. I should have a post up sometime soon!
It doesn't matter just now, but when Tristan has Mage Armor cast on him does he take his leather armor off to be able to benefit from the monk abilities?
While affected by Mage Armor he stores away/doesn't wear his leather armor or buckler
"So, proposed order of march for 10 ' wide corridor:
Bannog
Groff, Auleth?
Khoran, Tristan?
Grimm."
Auleth and Tristan to switch places depending on who's better in Melee. Normally I wouldn't leave Grimm exposed at the back, but this layout is not conducive to someone getting behind us... Khoran is in the middle because his hexes have limited range and he can heal almost everyone...
Regardless of the low chance of a rear assault, I like having a competent rear guard to protect the mage and casters in general. I would prefer having Auleth or Tristan as rear-guard.
I'm not sure which is better in the rearguard role.
Having Auleth up front allows him to contribute to trapspotting.
Being in melee prevents Tristan from using Flurry but he's a competent switch-hitter. His ac is and will be better than Auleth (especially after getting Osyluth Guile at some point in the future), he'll be a bit tanky I hope.
He's doesn't have to worry about AOOs for ranged within melee. I don't think think Auleths build will allow for Point Blank Master (I could very well be wrong).
Auleth doesn't have to worry about range penalties from the back row like Tristan with only a 20ft range increment.
I'm fine with either Tristan or Auleth as rearguard. I'd like to hear from everyone else, particularly Auleth about this
"Groff is front line"
Agreed. And that is completely understood during a frontal assault situation ala bashing through a door with known enemies behind it.
However FGG has ridiculous traps and having Bannog (with his +22 perception and his hilarious Roll with It feat to scamper away from the front line) at point during exploration makes more sense than having Groff at exploration point. Basically Bannog will keep us safe from traps and move out of Groffs way once contact with an enemy has been made
I will not get point blank master, but will at some point get Quick Draw and be solid in melee, especially with a flanking partner. Also will be able to fly in combat starting next level.
If Bannog is going ahead, I can be the backup point person too, in case we need to catch up/go a different route.
I have no objections to someone doing the trap scouting role up front since I'm nowhere near as competent.
What's up peeps? All quiet on the home front for a few days, just checking in.
Bannog, lure them to us, so we can use the entrance as a chokepoint, and take them 3+ on 1
Oh, I will, but I thought I might cause a bit more havok first :D
GM, can I use basic telekinesis from where I am at to open the door? It is within range, but unsure if I have line of sight, which I assume is needed.
My thought is this: perhaps I can open the door and slip through it, causing at least some of the wolves to follow me in, then I can go back out and close the door behind me. This would separate the pack, and potentially cause any baddies in the next room to fight some of the wolves for us. Then I can draw the remaining ones back toward the exterior door.
I have a good acrobatics skill for avoiding AOOs, and I am still invisible which gives me concealment (and thus a miss chance) even against monsters with scent. Combine with me flying and them not, seems like I have a good chance of surviving a little bit of running around.
However, I am also open to just heading straight out and not messing around with any of this business. Or opening the door and then flying straight out, hoping that the wolves think I went through the door. As I understand scent, right now they know I am in the area, but need a move action to determine general direction, and won't know my exact position until I am just 5 ft away.
You do not have line of sight to the door from where you are currently, no, so basic telekinesis would not work for open/close on the door from where you are.
Oh, sweet, even better:
Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)
Source: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/#TOC-Invisibility
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
Source: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Total-Concealment
So am I reading this correctly, that I could fly around above the wolves with impunity without suffering an AOO? They could still take swipes at me on their turn, with a 50% miss chance, but I shouldn't have to worry about AOOs, right?
If you have total concealment against enemies you won't provoke AoOs from them, yes. As far as you know invisibility will give you total concealment against these creatures.
You are not currently waiting on me, right GM? I assumed you would collect all inits and post a new init order for round 2, and I should hold until that happens.
No, I was waiting for the group to finish initiative rolls. You were doing it exactly right! I tend to post when it's time for people to act in battles.
Knowing the mechanics of how the trap works now, I wish I had tried to open it when the wolves were in here. That would have been a fun way to take them out without breaking invisibility!
After some work you disarm the trap and unlock the door. If you'd like to reposition or do anything else to prepare before opening the door now's the time to do it. I just moved everyone into the room placing those examining it at the time near it.
4:30 PM on Solstag, the ninth of Eostre, 3517 I.R.
In response to this, I have moved a bunch of people around...
I am working on the assumption that Bannog can open the door telekinetically now that it is unlocked. Also, our only "frontline" is Groff. Tristan and Auleth really should decide who's our second man though...
I would assume the same. I can open it from behind, so if anything jumps out at us it won't hit me, then if nothing is there I can take up the scouting lead again.
Just let me know when everyone is happy with their positions, and I'll open the door!
edit: my apologies for not bring this up at the time of the will save
It's amazing how complex PF is, so before we get further into this combat I'd like examine Prot from evil
the prot against mind control is broken up into 2 parts:
A) granting an additional save against mind control effects in existence at the time Prot from Evil is cast. And if save successful surpresses the mind control for the Prot Evil duration
B) once Prot Evil is cast those affected by it are Immune to mind control effects.
A)"Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires."
B)" While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
It appears the "(spell, compulsion, mind affecting)" should not affect anyone within the Magic Circles radius.
Summary: Prot evil prevents mind control once its cast which Khoran did prior to this encounter. The second will save did not apply because an existing Prot Evil provides immunity.
The second save would have come into play IF we were affected by a mind control effect and after that, Khoran cast Prot Evil to grant us another save.
disclaimer: truly don't want to come off as an a%%#!%* rule lawyer. just trying to help get a complex game right.
Unfortunately, there is also this, from the FAQ:
Protection From Evil: Does this work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or just against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?
The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion. (Sleep is a border case for this issue, but the designers feel that "this spell overrides your brain's sleep centers" is different enough than "this spell overrides your resistance to commands from others.")
From descriptions in game, it sounds like this is Confusion, which PfE would not help against.
I believe that reading is correct, Tristan. It turns out that it wasn't an issue for this particular situation, but protection from evil will make its target (and those in the radius of the circle in the case of the Circle spell) immune to attempts by an evil creature to control the target's mind if the protection was up before the attempt to control occurs.
Ok..that all makes sense to me. Too bad Tristan doesn't have Calm Emotions spell yet. It's my favorite antidote to Confusion, prevents that TERRIBLE situation where the parties fighter starts wailing on his comrades
or the parties mad goblin zapper starts cooking everyone for dinner :D
After doing some reading and not getting a clear answer I'm going to ask for some guidance based on what you've seen in the past for Dispel Magic for the future uses.
It didn't matter this time it turns out, but for dispel magic as you've seen it used in the past does the spell just get dispelled for the creature dispel magic was cast on, or does the entire spell get dispelled (on everyone it's affecting?)
I also think (based on greater dispel magic,) that higher level spells of the same caster level would get dispelled first which means that I didn't need to roll for the Bless vs Magic Circle against Evil (it should just have been Magic Circle against Evil that got dispelled, so that matches what happened.) Does that match your experience?
After doing some reading and not getting a clear answer I'm going to ask for some guidance based on what you've seen in the past for Dispel Magic for the future uses.
It didn't matter this time it turns out, but for dispel magic as you've seen it used in the past does the spell just get dispelled for the creature dispel magic was cast on, or does the entire spell get dispelled (on everyone it's affecting?)
I also think (based on greater dispel magic,) that higher level spells of the same caster level would get dispelled first which means that I didn't need to roll for the Bless vs Magic Circle against Evil (it should just have been Magic Circle against Evil that got dispelled, so that matches what happened.) Does that match your experience?
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell’s caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected.
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.
In our current situation:
A) The TARGETED Dispel Magic would need to be cast on ONE character (the other character will remain unaffected by the Dispel).
Greater Dispel Magic 6th would allow multiple characters to be affected by the Targeted Dispel
If the spell was identified as Confusion, that spell could specifically be dispelled without risking dispelling the other buffs Groff has in place (Magic Circle, Bless). However, since the spell wasn't identified, the Dispel will be rolled against Confusion, Magic Circle, Bless in that order til one of them is dispelled.
Identifying spells to target with Dispel (avoiding buffs) is a key reason why spellcasters should max Know Arcana
It is not 100% clear to me, however my opinion is that the Targeted Dispel will work on an area effect spell with a fixed area and duration like Storm of Vengeance. But not against spells like Confusion, Slow, Haste as these spell affect their targets for a duration not an area. I believe once these spells affect a character/s it is no longer an area affect spell susceptible to a multitarget dispel. Its an effect that now travels with that individual for its duration and Dispelling on one character would not affect others.
of course I could be mistaken and unaware of some relevant FAQ or just be completely wrong in general
To put it in shorter terms, it wasn't an identified spell, and the dispel is targeted to one person. It's just on Groff (and I might lose any buffs though confusion will go first since it is highest level).
From dispel magic
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell’s caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
Confusion is a higher level spell, and I would assume has a higher caster level. It goes first before any of the buffs, and dispel gets a shot at all of them since it was targeted at Groff.
Yeah, the thing that had me unsure was the "dispelled one spell affecting the target" part of that, and that's mostly because of the way Spell Resistance works. Initially I would have assumed that it was just the part of the spell affecting that person rather than the entire spell (that affected multiple people,) but with Spell Resistance there's just the one roll that affects every part of the spell whether it was being encountered then or not.
But I'm happy to have it dispelling the affect from the single person targeted; that matches how I expect it to work rather than a broader reading that seems not to be intended.
For our game for right now, with Grimm's roll, it is the Magic Circle against Evil which gets dispelled as the current post in gameplay says, so (after a couple stumbles,) we should be ready to go!
Is the caster of confusion higher level than Grimm or not?
Is the caster of confusion higher level than Grimm or not?
Much. Grimm failed a dispel on a check of 22, which imples a Caster level of 12+.
Which brings us to our next point. That tells me that I agree with Tristan's plan... RUN AWAY.
Ok, I'm unclear on that being the case. If so, we're screwed. Since I'm confused I get to stay and die. That's grand.
The other spell effect (the new one) was not dispelled with Grimm's casting of Dispel Magic. Magic Circle against Evil was the highest caster level spell on Groff that Grimm's spell could dispel.
As a note that I am not all that happy about, I have now used slumber against Groff as many times as I have against the enemy...
Welp, there's Grimm eating a full attack from our kineticist next round...
@GM
If Tristan begins a
Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and observes the performance for as long as the bard continues to maintain it. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on all skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.
Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.
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If he stays stationary the Fascinated characters will just sit and watch him. But if he begins moving I think the Fascinated characters should follow him
After seeing how well trying to force the confused members of the group out worked, Tristan wants NOTHIN to do with that and wants to resort to Bardic Trickery
edit: Unfortunately at this lvl Tristan can only affect one character. But its better than nothing
Fascinating performance doesn't work if there's nearby combat, so it's not an ability that would work during combat so it won't be useful just now. Beyond that I'd say that no, a first level bard performance wouldn't be powerful enough to allow you to herd people around like the pied piper on its own. It'll keep them in place not doing other things, but now move them around.
There appears to be a fair amount of discussion, and no consensus, online about what constitutes an "attack" when confused. Would I literally go physically attack him, or would I use my kinetic blast? "Attack" is a defined game term, e.g. the Attack action, is that what it is referring to? If I am kinetic blasting, would I go all out nova and take burn and everything to make it as strong of an attack as possible? Would I only consider Grimm, or would I consider using Spindle to try to hit Grimm and Khoran?
Tristan what I want is for you to move into the Pink dotted square (and NOT attack Groff). Because you and Bannong will provide cover to me from Groff ("To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes ... through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover". I can move away without drawing an AoO, "You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you" (note that he's focused on me as an enemy right now, so I don't think your movement will draw an AoO), to the blue dotted square. Then I can Slumber him again (accursed hex), and even if it fails, he can't charge me, because you and Bannong are blocking his line... Thus he can't quite reach me to bang on my head (this round), and I can potentially lure him safely out of the building, even if he makes his saves.
@Bannog, I'm taking attack to mean use what your typical attack would be in a normal combat. In Bannog's case (based on previous combats) that would probably be take a 5 foot step to avoid an AoO (though Grimm likely wouldn't make one you're confused and don't recognize that,) using a move action to gather power and then hit Grimm with an empowered electric blast or telekinetic blast. I don't think that you'd take extra burn and right now only Grimm has "attacked" you so you wouldn't use spindle to hit someone else as you're not compelled to attack anyone else.
If Khoran had also "attacked" since you acted last then you'd choose between hitting one of them with a standard blast or the spindle just like you would if they were enemies in a typical combat.
Tristan - from Zorblag's comments, that pink dotted square may move, depending on where Bannog goes...
Hypothetically speaking, if Grimm makes Khoran invisible before my turn , what would I then do? If I can't see Khoran, would I then roll to determine my move like normal, or would I fly around aimlessly looking for him?
If that were to happen (though Grimm has already taken an action,) Bannog would know that Khoran has already moved, so he'd attempt to attack the place he thinks that Khoran is either with standard kinetic blast or with a spindle blast, whichever he thought was more likely to hit. If Khoran had been made invisible before moving (though then he wouldn't have been able to attack you barring some clever ready action work to set it up,) then Bannog would make a perception check to see if he could detect him, and if that failed would probably go to the can't do the indicated action option instead (babbling incoherently.)
Grimm hasn’t gone yet this round (at least his name is currently bold), and I don’t currently have line of sight to Khoran, so I don’t know where he moved to. How would I know where to attack in that case? All I would know is that he left the hall moving back toward the exit, but by the time I flew there he’d be nowhere to be seen.
You do have line of sight (from the northeast corner of your square you can trace a line without obstacles other than creatures to Khoran's location,) but you are right that I was mixing up rounds and Grimm could cast invisibility if he chose to.
I added a line to the map from the NE corner of my square to the NE corner of Khoran's square, and it crosses the corner of the wall. Isn't that an obstacle? Did I get the line wrong? Not trying to be pedantic, just genuinely making sure I understand the rules for line of sight, because it never has come up for me before.
Could I fire a kinetic blast from where I am to where Khoran is without moving?
The trouble with the line is the roughness of the lines on the map and the inexact positioning of the avatars. You're in the corner of the room which is 5 feet by 5 feet, and flush with the wall. Given that the Khoran's location (in the entranceway which is 5 feet wide and slightly north of flush with the wall,) a line drawn in a more precise rendering of the picture, as it went north of your square, would not hit the corner that you've got it hitting.
You should be able to hit Khoran with a kinetic blast from where you are without moving, though he'd have cover from where he is (actually he'd have cover there due to the nature of the entryway even if you moved 5 feet north, and the other characters in the way would have provided it even if the geography didn't.)
Bannog, if you were a foe, which he considers you now, seems much more likely to take a 5 foot step or stay where he is and hit you with an empowered blast rather than moving and hitting you with a less powerful one. Given that the electric blast in particular targets touch AC the cover wouldn't be such a concern for him I wouldn't think.