We'll start planning the campaign here. It'll be fun!
Hi there everyone! If you've made it here then I hope that you're interested in taking part in a new campaign with me. I've got some thoughts about what I might want out of it, but I'd like to have a discussion with all the potential player to figure out what they'd like out of it as well. This will be my first time running an online campaign, so I'd rather not have it get super complicated, but I'm open to working out a system that everyone can have fun with, especially as I believe I can count on the other players involved to help through any potentially rough patches and forgive me if when I make mistakes.
Slumbering Tsar is like Rappan Athuk in that it's supposed to be a pretty brutal campaign where players should be prepared to accept player death as part of the process (of course good preparation can cut down on this a lot, but not take away the intentional difficulty of the adventure.) As such I don't want to have overpowered characters, but I would like to have a group that has a good variety of tools to deal with different types of encounters and obstacles.
I think I'd like to use a 20 point buy and background skills and the Elephant in the Room Feat Tax rules for quality of life purposes, but beyond those I'm open for a discussion about what you'd like to see in terms of rules and systems you'd like to play with.
What do people think? What would make this a game you'd be excited to play in?
A very enthusiastic YES! I'd love to play TSAR.
" have a session zero like discussion with the players to figure out what set of rules we want to use together (which classes, races, products and what not are fair game.)"
Let session zero start. :)
Elephant in the room feat tax pdf...
The Elephant in the Room: Feat Taxes in
Pathfinder
By all metrics, Pathfinder is the most satisfying penand-paper game I’ve ever played. The class balance feels
good, the math isn’t overwhelming, and the community
support is outstanding. However, it suffers from
one syndrome that haunts the creation of every new
character: feat taxes.
Many veteran players lament that you need three feats
to go to the bathroom in Pathfinder. It’s a cheeky musing,
but one rooted in truth. Pathfinder’s feats are arranged in
sprawling tiers, often requiring an investment of three or
more feats to unlock a single more advanced one. While
it’s satisfying to work towards a goal, many rungs on the
feat ladder are considered either undesirable or overtly
mundane. These are feat taxes.
Below I’ve highlighted a number of revisions to
Pathfinder’s feat tree to help ease the situation. I’ve
focused mainly on combat feats, arguably the worst
offenders. Feel free to incorporate these changes into
your own house rules or make your own suggestions in
the comments.
Martial Mastery
Gone. Combat feats like Weapon Focus now apply to
weapon groups instead of a specific weapon by default.
Pathfinder frequently forces a player to invest heavily in
a single weapon. For instance, two-weapon fighting rogues are stuck with mirrored weapons so their Weapon Finesse
and Weapon Focus benefits apply to both their attacks.
Expanding these feats to cover the weapon groups mentioned
under the fighter’s Weapon Training would make things
much more flexible. We might finally see a samurai wielding
a daisho.
Weapon Finesse
Gone. The “light weapons” category has been renamed
to “finesse weapons.” Characters can choose to use either
their dexterity bonus or their strength bonus to hit with
these weapons, no feat required. “Finesse” is also now a
weapon attribute like “brace” or “trip,” allowing a weapon
in another category to be finessed (like the rapier).
Weapon Finesse is the ultimate feat tax. It’s begrudgingly
mandatory for most rogues, specifically two-weapon fighting
builds. I understand Paizo worries that dexterity might
become an uber stat, but weapon finesse still doesn’t grant
a damage bonus. It’s really the only thing rogue’s have to
compensate for their lackluster BAB.
Agile Maneuvers
Gone. A character adds their dexterity to the CMB if
they’re wielding a finesse weapon and their strength
otherwise.
This goes hand and hand with the previous change.
Making combat maneuvers more accessible will be a
recurring theme of this article.
Combat Expertise
Gone. Now simply a combat option for any class with
at least +1 BAB.
The most heinous feat tax next to Weapon Finesse.
Combat Expertise is taken to progress to better feats then
promptly forgotten about. I like it as an option, but it’s not
worth spending a feat on.
Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Dirty
Trick, Improved Feint, Improved Reposition,
Improved Steal
Gone. Replaced with Deft Maneuvers.
Deft Maneuvers
New. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when
performing a trip, disarm, dirty trick, feint, reposition,
or steal combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2
bonus on checks with these combat maneuvers. Now a
prerequisite for the relevant greater combat maneuver
feats.
Why is it so hard to pull off combat maneuvers in this
game? It seems like you need three feats before you can
attempt to trip someone without impaling yourself on
your own polearm. Eliminating Combat Expertise as a
prerequisite and wrapping up all these improved combat
maneuver feats into a single package simplifies things. It
would prevent fighters from being stonewalled if a monster
is immune to their combat maneuver of choice and make
the feats much more attractive to feat-starved classes.
Power Attack
Gone. Now simply a combat option for any class with
at least +1 BAB.
Power Attack is too useful to be a feat. It’s the first feat
taken by any character with the strength and BAB to
abuse it and likely ranks as the single most popular feat in
Pathfinder. Turning it into a combat option available to
anyone with at least +1 BAB is a reasonable change and
still stalls caster and hybrid classes from grabbing specialized
combat feats too early.
Improved Bull Rush, Improved Drag, Improved
Overrun, Improved Sunder
Gone. Replaced with Powerful Maneuvers.
Powerful Maneuvers
New. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity
when performing a bull rush, drag, overrun, or sunder
combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus
on checks with these combat maneuvers. Now a
prerequisite for the relevant greater combat maneuver
feats.
The same deal as Deft Maneuvers. More combat
maneuvers at a lower feat investment is just a good idea
all around.
Point-Blank Shot
Gone. Precise Shot replaces it as a prerequisite for further
archery feats.
I like Point-Blank Shot, but Precise Shot is the real
breadwinner for any ranged build. It’s the one trick
every archer wants out of the gate and the one combat
feat many wizards and sorcerers would love to cherry pick
to aid their ray spells. The loss of Point-Blank Shot can
easily be compensated for by Weapon Focus or Weapon
Specialization, but it’s not like archery builds are hurting
anyhow
Deadly Aim
Gone. Now simply a combat option for any class with
at least +1 BAB.
Like Power Attack, Deadly Aim is another mandatory
feat that should be available to everyone. It takes a high
BAB to abuse Deadly Aim, so I’m not overly concerned
about the change throwing a wrench into class balance.
Mobility
Gone. Merged with Dodge.
Dodge
Revised. You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. This
bonus increases to +4 against attacks of opportunity
caused when you move out of or within a threatened
tile. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to
AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.
Spring Attack isn’t a great feat, but it lends itself to
interesting builds. Unfortunately, the prerequisites of Dodge
and Mobility are often too much for a player to stomach.
Merging these feats makes Spring Attack more accessible
and subsequently transforms two mediocre feats into a single
spectacular one.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Gone. Merged with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Revised. Prerequisites now Dex 17, Two-Weapon
Fighting, BAB +6. In addition to the standard single
extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a
second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty. Once your
BAB reaches +11, you also gain a third attack with your
off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.
Two-weapon fighting isn’t as good as Paizo seems to think
it is. Pathfinder Society scenarios are seemingly designed to
prevent full-attacks; I’ve rarely encountered one without
difficult terrain, magical entanglement, or some other
battlefield hindrance. The massive feat investment only adds
insult to injury. Coupled with the Weapon Finesse change,
this feat merger puts two-weapon fighting more in line with
the generally much stronger two-handed weapon builds.
lol...you ninja'ed me on the elephant in the room
One option would just be to stick to Paizo's products; there's certainly plenty of variety to build a solid party to work with.
In terms of available races, I'm probably open to anything that's not too out there or powerful. If the party wanted to run a ratfolk mercenary group that would be awesome. Hobgoblins, goblins, orcs and the like should be just fine, though due to the nature of the adventure it'd probably be better not to have an evil party (though I have no issue with members of any pathfinder race having any alignment.) If everyone just wants to stick to core rulebook races that would be just fine as well.
Sticking with paizo only is the easiest to do.. There are plenty of options. I'd prefer ALL paizo first edition available.
I prefer non-evil characters.
is nice without being overpowered
and
solves the problem of multiclassing getting out of hand.
for example
a rogue 1/magus 1 has a bab+0
while a wizard2 has a bab of +1.
It also solves the problem of a multiclassing martials saves getting out of hand vs full casters.
Both of these subsystems are paizo
edit: I'm good with the expanded races you mentioned
Are you thinking of setting this in Golarion for the purposes of available Gods and domains or keeping it in the FrogGod setting.
if keeping it in the FGsetting allowing reasonable Golarion options to apply would be nice
example: allowing clerics of the FG Sun god to take the Sarenae prestige class Dawnflower Anchorite.
I'm more than happy to use Fractional Bonuses; multiclassing makes saves silly in some ways and that helps reduce that.
Variant multiclassing is fine most of the time. There can be a couple silly combos (Paladin VMC into Order of the Star Cavalier for example,) but as long as it's used to expand options rather than double down on power I'm all for it.
I'm fine with almost all Paizo first edition options. I'd probably rather skip some things like Vigilante just because it doesn't fit the adventure path well, and tends to overshadow the core classes it's emulating, but all the occult classes, hybrid classes and most of the base classes are probably just fine unless someone has a reason they'd rather not play with them. I guess just don't go out of your way to game the system and I'll be happy unless someone has a reason to object!
I was planning on using the Lost Lands setting rather than Golarion, but there shouldn't be any issue with using reasonable translations for archetype requirements and the like.
*edit* Oh, and I guess that I'd prefer that if someone wants to play a summoner we use unchained rather than the older version. The unchained classes in general would be my preference, but if someone wanted to play an original barbarian, rogue or monk for some reason that's fine. The summoner is the one I feel most strongly about being better balanced for the game.
The church of Muir, Goddess of Virtue and Paladins (probably working with the church of Thyr, Muir's brother and the God of Law and Justice) would probably try to hire a good adventuring party rather than scum, though as adventurers heading to a dangerous place they'd take what they can recruit knowing that the lure of treasure is likely to be as strong an incentive as any sort of piety on the part of the adventurers. They also wouldn't do anything to hide how dangerous things were likely to be, so expendable might be part of the equation, sure. If a holy warrior (paladin, cleric, inquisitor or warpriest) of either god was involved in the expedition the church would certainly approve, but they'll hire the party they can hire to investigate.
The church just found out that Bishu and his company were left to guard over the abandoned city after the forces of Tsar made their escape south to what would eventually become Rappan Athuk. Tsar was largely left alone and forgotten in the couple hundred years since, so the primary task would be to scout the area and learn what they can of Bishu's fate. If there was anything worth reporting or bringing back the church would certainly expect to compensate the party for it, but the report is old enough that there are no specific expectations that need to be fulfilled.
The party would be hired out of Bard's Gate, a large, Chaotic Good city some 300 or so miles south of Tsar and it's surroundings. In theory the church would have given some money to the party to fund the expedition up front, but that's going to be part of your starting gold rather than anything extra. The church is hoping for a successful expedition and will support it if it's producing results, whatever that might end up meaning.
Neither of the two churches would have any issue with arcane magic. When they got the crusade against Tsar started the one who lead the armies was an archmage who they had no trouble following. Psychic magic isn't common in the Lost Lands, but as long as it isn't used for evil purposes they shouldn't have any issue with it.
We would start at 7th level, yes.
Does that help? Are there other questions I can answer about the setting? The adventure will be mostly focused on exploring the region around Tsar, and then eventually the city itself, so no huge about of knowledge of the world is needed for our purposes.
I'm hoping that those interested will coordinate their builds some, but if you come up with an idea first it might make the core of what the group does!
I've put some tentative build rules in the Campaign Info, but they're not set in stone at this point, so let me know if you see anything in them that you'd like to talk about.
I'm good for making a front liner and would be happy with the feat tax rules (and 20 point buy is good). Probably would go with a fighter.
What is the background on this module? Are there hints it is undead heavy or something? (need to consider weapon choices). Also what level do we start at?
The starting level would be 7. You'll be exploring the site of a huge battle between the Army of Light and the forces of Orcus, Demon prince of the undead, and then probably Tsar, Orcus's ruined city-temple eventually. You would indeed have advanced warning that there are likely to be a fair amount of undead to deal with, and being prepared to handle evil outsiders probably isn't a terrible idea.
Ok, sounds good. I'll get a 7th level fighter cooked up (unless that doesn't suit what other people are doing). I generally default to some sort of martial. However I can fill other holes if people are already dead set on that type of job.
I've got a Frontline martial build that I've been dieing to play.
It's pretty optimized so it may or may not fit with the power level the group is looking to play at
VMW Sorcerer Orc bloodline reflavored to an Avenging Angel or Archon
Falcata Swashbuckler 3
Brawler 2
Paladin 2
His interesting mechanic is Shield Slamming(bull rush) with his buckler and then hitting villians with reach AOOs via his swordmaster's flair (reach 1min 1 panache)
In golarion he would worship ragathiel... Raging celestial paladin... I'm sure I can find something appropriate in Frog God.
Buzzard can twink out builds with the best of them so I'm sure he can keep up with my raging shield basher paladin.
My character would be a descendant of Bish. Not formally trained as a paladin but looking for answers about this calling he feels.
I'll get his complete build up tonight or tomorrow
If it's too much for the group I've got a Multiclassed bard... No one can possibly complain about an optimized Bard.
Hmm, I don't think that build would be too out there offhand, but RAW I don't think that the Swordmaster's Flair (blue scarf) would work with a falcata even with the Falcata Swashbuckler archetype. Given that the swordmaster's flair isn't swashbuckler’s finesse, a feat or class ability that refers to a one handed piercing weapon the falcata wouldn't be affected by it. Is there some source that explains it in a way that I'm not seeing or some other interaction that's taking place?
One more thing I'll add to your considerations when building a party is that in addition to knowing that you'll likely be facing undead and evil outsiders, you would know that dealing with the environment in the Desolation (the region surrounding Tsar itself,) is going to present it's own set of obstacles. You'll want to come prepared for that which, at the very least, means having at least one member of the party who's competent with the survival skill. It shouldn't be hard to work that in, but I'd be remiss not letting you know about it before you get started.
Once we've got a party I'll figure out exactly how they were recruited and write a short scene in the game thread introducing you to your contacts in the church(es) before skipping over the journey to the Desolation and starting the adventure.
There will actually be a small settlement that you'll probably use as a base of operations that could be a minor source of magic items for sale (somewhat similar to Zelkor's Ferry in RA,) but yeah, you shouldn't count on having access to a major city for magic items most of the time.
Pad, I can go ranged fighter if you want to make a frontliner.
I'm still deciding what flavor to make honestly. I like armored whip builds, but I have one active. I was thinking of a 2 handed crit machine which could be good, but perhaps a bit soft. Perhaps a dorn dergar build again, as I don't think I ever got one too far along.
How big a party are we expecting as we'll need caster types to survive high level challenges?
I'm hoping we'll get all five possible players from the RA campaign, but I don't think that Lomyldyr or Baltor have checked their PMs yet, so I don't know if they'll be up for it it not. If they aren't in for whatever reason we should probably try to get at least 5 players in the game; 6 would be fine as well. I'll leave it to the group to how we'd like to try to recruit.
It would likely be wise to have some caster types along, yes.
Ok, I have an interesting idea for a background if it is possible. The character would be a relative of a dwarf in Bish's party. He's been wondering what ever happened to him, and when a call went out to investigate he left his forge to go look into it. This is predicated on
A) dwarves living long enough for this to be possible (you mention a couple hundred years, and I believe dwarves live to 350 or so)
B) Dwarves being present in the party in the first place
Probably would have to be a relatively young relative, so nephew of the original guy. Given the span of years possible for 1 generation removed, I think it is doable.
This does imply I'm running with the dorn-gergar build.
Is crafting going to be an option in this? If so, I'll probably load up the master craftsman feat and the ability to make arms and armor.
@drbuzzard, There were dwarves in the Army of Light. The largest contingent would have been followers of King Kroma, the king of a specifically dwarven kingdom, but there could have been some in Bishu's party. Those with Bishu almost certainly would have been Paladins, and would be the rare dwarven worshipers of Muir, but there's no reason not to say that you're a relative.
The war was closer to 300 years ago, so one or probably two generations removed would make sense (maybe the paladin was a great uncle or great aunt who the family/clan holds up as an ancestor of note that they had assumed was lost in the war until now?)
Crafting is an option, though for arms and armor you'll have to work a little to get good access to a forge. As long as you're willing to put some work in to get that access (diplomatic/mission-ish probably,) I'd say go for it for the crafting!
@pad300, aasimar is probably fine for a race I suppose. I wouldn't have any problem with a Scion of Humanity Assimar using the human's FCB.
huh...my bad on the swordmasters flair not working with Falcata Swashbuckler
Proposed Character
Aasimar
Darkvision
Skilled
Alt traits:
Heritage..Angel BLooded +2str, +2cha
Scion of Humanity
Deathless Spirit
Incorruptible
Str 18 (15+2race+1lvl)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (14+2race)
VMC Orc Bloodline (reflavored Avenging Celestial)
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Fearless (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain a +4 bonus on saving throws made against fear and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Rondelero Swashbuckler 3
Brawler 2
Paladin Oath of Vengeance 2
Important Trait: Community-Minded
While some pray to the gods for mercy or prosperity, you follow a different tack—you believe in improving the lives of those around you through earnest labor and the efforts of you and your community. Your hard-earned discipline and the candor of your words affect all who bear witness.
Benefit(s): Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds.
This will allow his Touch of Rage bloodline power and Rage through future ID Rager lvl to be extended 2 rounds
Feats:
1
You are skilled at using customized weaponry.
Benefit: Choose a weapon modification (such as jagged hooks). You treat weapons with that modification as being of their normal category (simple, martial, or exotic).
Normal: A modified weapon is treated as one category more difficult to wield.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different weapon modification each time.
He will wield a Falcata with the
REPORT AD
Price +500 gp; Weight —
A weapon with the versatile design modification is easier to wield for those skilled with other weapon groups. When versatile design is added to a weapon, choose a fighter weapon group. The modified weapon is considered to be a weapon of that weapon group (such as for the fighter’s weapon training class feature). A melee weapon cannot be considered part of a weapon group for ranged weapons, and vice versa.
modification allowing it to be used as a Close Weapon qualifying it for Brawlers Flurry
3rd VMC
bonus feat: Improved Shield Bash
5th Dodge
7th VMC
Goal of the build= Once his Falcata is improved to a +1
DESCRIPTION
Restriction This ability can be placed only on melee or thrown weapons.
The wielder of a sharding weapon can make a special ranged attack with the weapon in place of any melee attack. To do this, the wielder goes through the motion of throwing the weapon without releasing it. The weapon splits off a duplicate of itself that flies as if thrown by the wielder at the intended target. The duplicate gains a range increment of 10 feet for this purpose, but uses the same proficiency and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon. The duplicate vanishes after hitting or missing its target.
He will begin shield bashing (eventually getting SHield Master and Bashing Finish)to drive away opponents while continuing to full attack (brawlers flurry) at range with the Sharding Falcata
At 13th he’ll take the Quicken SLA feat enabling him to use Touch of Rage on himself as a swift action 3x/day
Eventually through the Orc Bloodline VMC his Strength will increase and he’ll be able to grow to a large size 1min per lvl/day
background: accomplished warrior from Bards Gates whose feelings of righteous rage upon seeing injustice have coincided with the discovery that he is a descendant of Bish.
Not formally trained as a paladin and yet the church accepted this outsiders request to be included in the group to investigate Tsar
@WabbitHuntr, it is a cool looking build, though I think I might have a couple issues with it.
Ug, Aasimars. They're really on the border of being too powerful for races compared to the other options. Like I told pad300 I guess they're OK, but I think I'll say no to their alternate racial traits other than Scion of Humanity (mostly because that one will allow spells that affect humanoids to affect them.) Too many of the others are just too big a boost to their power for the campaign I'm looking to run.
The Community-Minded trait pretty clearly drastically changes the Touch of Rage bloodline power into something more powerful than it was before. Is there anything else in the game that you know of that increases the duration of all morale based effects like that? I'm leary of the power there given that the rest of the build should be pretty vialbe/comparable to other martial builds without it I'd think. My initial reaction is that its too big a (unintended from the Touch of Rage end) boost.
The Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat is a monster feat (which is a bit dicey in and of itself,) but it specifies the following:
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4.
I'm not aware of a spell that Touch of Rage is duplicating, so it's probably not eligible for the feat even if Monster feats in general are allowable.
No alternate traits on Aasimars. Understood. He would then be human.
The Community-Minded trait pretty clearly drastically changes the Touch of Rage bloodline power into something more powerful than it was before. Is there anything else in the game that you know of that increases the duration of all morale based effects like that?
Optimistic Gambler (3.5E)
Benefit Effects that grant you morale bonuses persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result.
Is the other trait that increases morale bonus duration...Although the flavor of Community-minded fits better with an LG Paladin. I just noticed that O.G. is a 3.5E trait from the Second Darkness campaign. So Community-minded is the only pure pathfinder trait I know of increasing morale duration.
I'm leary of the power there given that the rest of the build should be pretty vialbe/comparable to other martial builds without it I'd think. My initial reaction is that its too big a (unintended from the Touch of Rage end) boost.
Touch of Rage by itself is useless as a Standard action with 1rd duration. It only becomes viable with Quicken SLA and the trait which is not an insignificant investment.
The best way to think of it is as a second pool of Smite (swift action 3x/day) which does not come online til 13th. by RAW would be stack with Smite, but that would be too much and would need to be nerfed to prevent that.
The Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat is a monster feat (which is a bit dicey in and of itself,) but it specifies the following:
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4.
I'm not aware of a spell that Touch of Rage is duplicating, so it's probably not eligible for the feat even if Monster feats in general are allowable.
I've had this link favorited for quite some time ready to answer this question...Touch of Rage , Quicken SLA
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realize this build may be too much and might best fit in in a 4 man party as the sole martial. If paired with another martial, the other martial would need to be optimized as well.
If you and/or the group think it's too much I have an optimized Bard that I'd be happy to play. I have several builds theory-crafted that have been looking for homes. It's a team game and I'm sure I can come up with something that works for everyone.
Thanks for the invite. What class do we still need? Looks like arcane or skill class? I’m happy to do either.
The Community-Minded trait pretty clearly drastically changes the Touch of Rage bloodline power into something more powerful than it was before. Is there anything else in the game that you know of that increases the duration of all morale based effects like that?
Optimistic Gambler (3.5E)
Benefit Effects that grant you morale bonuses persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result.
Is the other trait that increases morale bonus duration...Although the flavor of Community-minded fits better with an LG Paladin. I just noticed that O.G. is a 3.5E trait from the Second Darkness campaign. So Community-minded is the only pure pathfinder trait I know of increasing morale duration.
I didn't actually mean just traits. I was trying to think of anything else that extended morale benefits like that. If I had something else that might come up to compare it to it would help evaluate how reasonable it is as a trait option.
I'm leary of the power there given that the rest of the build should be pretty vialbe/comparable to other martial builds without it I'd think. My initial reaction is that its too big a (unintended from the Touch of Rage end) boost.
Touch of Rage by itself is useless as a Standard action with 1rd duration. It only becomes viable with Quicken SLA and the trait which is not an insignificant investment.
The best way to think of it is as a second pool of Smite (swift action 3x/day) which does not come online til 13th. by RAW would be stack with Smite, but that would be too much and would need to be nerfed to prevent that.
I don't disagree that Touch of Rage is by default useless as a self buff. It's pretty clearly designed as a buff for others (like I would argue a lot of cleric domain powers and the like are.) Is there some other way to get it viable as a self buff, especially one that lasts multiple rounds? If this is the only way to do it that exists in the game I continue to be leary of it.
As for the comparison to smite, it's similar, but given that it's coming from the VMC it goes up regardless of what other classes you invest in. Smite only scales up as you invest in Paladin (and forgo the flexibility of other classes.) It would also be usable at least 6x (3 + cha modifier) per day for your build, so a lot of the time that's going to be every combat as opposed to just one one target creature for each smite (so one for your build to start with.) It changes from a boss killer to an almost always on everything killer that gets better without investment in a particular class.
The Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat is a monster feat (which is a bit dicey in and of itself,) but it specifies the following:
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4.
I'm not aware of a spell that Touch of Rage is duplicating, so it's probably not eligible for the feat even if Monster feats in general are allowable.
I've had this link favorited for quite some time ready to answer this...Touch of Rage , Quicken SLA
I did find that thread after I made my post, and although it certainly establishes that there is a spell level associated with the SLA (for sorcerers at least; in your case your class doesn't actually grant spells via the VMC, so as it's written there it wouldn't give the Touch of Rage a spell level,) I'm not at all convinced from what shows up there that the SLA is a spell. One of the highlighted bits specifically says that a spell-like ability is not a spell and the feat specifically says that the Quicken Spell-Like ability duplicate a spell. It's a reasonable restriction to make given that that SLA, for example, is much stronger than any first level actual spell that I can think of, and would surely be outside the scope of what Quicken SLA is trying to give monsters access to.
I realize this build may be too much and might best fit in in a 4 man party as the sole martial. If paired with another martial, the other martial would need to be optimized as well.
If you and/or the group think it's too much I have an optimized Bard that I'd be happy to play. I have several builds theory-crafted that have been looking for homes. It's a team game and I'm sure I can come up with something that works for everyone.
If you feel like the Touch of Rage is a vital part of the build then I probably do still feel like it's too much for this adventure (though I'm willing to continue to talk about it if you feel like I'm not understanding something or misrepresenting how it's going to work.) I think the build otherwise could be entirely reasonable (I like how you've gotten falcatas worked in as I love them as a weapon, and getting that short ranged feature is pretty sweet,) but I wouldn't argue against an optomized bard for party utility if the Touch of Rage was a deal breaker here.
My front-liner may get changed into a Starknife chucking skill monkey trapspringing Bard who sings lots of masterpieces. Waiting for feedback.
No one has jumped on arcane yet.
@Lomyldyr, welcome! Glad to have you here! It sounds like there's a (reach) fighter and (unsworn) shaman almost certainly, and either a shield-bashing falcata flinger or bard, depending on what WabbitHuntr thinks of my responses in that last post, so I'm not sure, maybe? I'll let the others chime in on what they're thinking at this point.
For traits I think no campaign traits, but you start with two, and can take a drawback (hopefully one that actually comes into play, or what's the point,) for a third. Normal rules that only one trait of each type can be selected. I'll add that to the build rules on the campaign info page.
Thinking about traits I do want to make an exception for trap finder. As written the ability to disable magic traps is harder to get access to than I think is necessary. If someone is making a skill character and doesn't want to be forced to play one of the classes or archetypes that gets the ability to disarm magic traps they can take trap finder as a combat trait (or make a case for some other category of trait if they'd like.) I suppose it doesn't have to be a skill character, but they're probably the type who'd be most likely to want it.
Here's Groff
Groff
Male dwarf fighter 7
LG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10 (+11 to determine if surprised)
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Defense
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AC 31, touch 14, flat-footed 28 (+12 armor, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural, +4 shield)
hp 60 (7d10+14)
Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +4 (+2 vs. fear); +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +2 adamantine dwarven dorn-dergar +14/+9 (1d10+11)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with +2 adamantine dwarven dorn-dergar)
Special Attacks hatred, weapon training (flails +1)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 25 (29 vs. bull rush, 29 vs. trip)
Feats Advanced Armor Training, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Dodge, Master Craftsman, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Unhindering Shield, Weapon Focus (dwarven dorn-dergar), Weapon Specialization (dwarven dorn-dergar)
Traits eldritch smith, militant merchant
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 to jump), Climb +7, Craft (armor) +9 (+11 on checks related to metal or stone), Craft (weapons) +11 (+13 on checks related to metal or stone), Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Perception +10 (+11 to determine if surprised), Survival +10, Swim +7; Racial Modifiers craftsman[APG]
Languages Common, Dwarven, Undercommon
SQ armor training 2, rock stepper[ARG]
Other Gear +2 full plate, +2 buckler, +2 adamantine dwarven dorn-dergar, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of resistance +2, handy haversack, ring of protection +1, 3,881 gp, 6 sp, 7 cp
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Special Abilities
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Armor Specialization +1 (Full plate) (Ex) Increase armor bonus of chosen armor.
Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Craftsman +2 on Craft/Profession checks related to metal/stone.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs. monsters of the Giant subtype.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs. Goblinoids/Orcs.
Master Craftsman (Craft [weapons]) +2 to chosen craft skill, its ranks count as CL for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rock Stepper Ignore rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking 5 ft step.
Unhindering Shield Still gain buckler's AC bonus when use that hand for other purpose. Hand is considered free.
Weapon Training (Flails) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Flails
This does assume I get the crafting discount on weapons and armor (which is 3 items). It basically just made things +2 instead of +1. Also the weapon being adamantine might be too expensive without the crafting (actually looking at that I have 3k left over, and that would cover a purchased adamantine weapon), I'd have to check. I do have leftover money.
Groff is the grand nephew Korm Brightbeard, paladin of Astri (LG Dwarf god, though I can switch to a different god) who had felt a calling to the historic crusade in question.
Posted before I finished the origin.
So Groff is the grand nephew of that crusader, and was raised on tales of his exploits, though his disappearance has always haunted the family. His branch of the family (father, grandfather) were smiths, though with normal service time in the dwarven militia.
He followed them into the smithy after a bit longer than normal time in the militia. Upon getting word that the church of Muir was going to look into the party's vanishing, he decided to sign on and settle a family mystery.
Having said that, if you've got the touch of rage ability and can use it 6 times per day (only 3 quickened,) it's still useful in a number of situations beyond just the times you can quicken it; it's pretty versatile in some ways. It should affect your AoO on the round you cast it on yourself (this one actually works even without the trait to extend it.) If you've got a round of combat where you've moved but can't attack it's a good option. There are plenty of opportunities where be worth it to use on a first round of combat after moving instead of a single attack (especially at higher levels.) It's not restricted to just you, so it's something that you could use on yourself the first round and allies on subsequent rounds for big fights (and other creative combinations of moving and buffing orders.)
I think that the rage ability from the VMC barbarian is an interesting comparison point. That seems to be viewed as one of the better VMCs from the quick reading that I'm doing, and that's largely because of the rage feature (though a rage power along the way is nice, some of the other orc bloodline powers in the sorcerer VMC are nice as well.) You can think of the extended Touch of rage using the trait, your first level feat and then the 13th level feat (to quicken it). Rage on it's own would just take the third level feat (and then eventually the 19th level feat to make it slightly better.)
Although Touch of Rage is useful before level 13 in some of the situations I describe above, starting at level 13 Touch of Rage gives you +6 to hit and damage for any attacks and will saves for 9 somewhat awkward to group rounds + whatever else you can get out the non-quickened version/choose to buff others with. It scales up quickly after that for the benefits, though the duration is staying the same.
Rage (assuming unchained) at level 13 gives +2 to hit and damage (on just melee attacks/throw weapon attacks,) and will saves, and 26 extra temporary hp, but at a cost of -2 AC and being fatigued after it's done and some restriction to other actions you can take (dex, int and cha based skills, casting spells, using SLAs etc...). You'll probably have 19 or 20 rounds of rage at that point in an easier to delegate how you like fashion, though you can only apply them to yourself. The part that scales up are the temporary hp and rounds that you can use the ability, and you eventually (at level 19,) have the to hit, attack and will bonuses go up to +3.
Of those two, I'd argue that the extended Touch of Rage is much stronger, and lacks the drawbacks that come with Rage. The use of Rage is mostly more flexible in that you will be getting more rounds in almost all cases, and can break them up how you like barring some fatigue issues, though the ability to use the non-quickened Touch or Rage and use Touch of Rage on others offset this flexibility a bit. The eventual difference in cost to the character is the extra trait that needs to be spent extending Touch of Rage (though they're a feat behind from levels 13 to 18.)
I think that I'm finding the trait extended Touch of Rage to be stronger by a fair amount in the long run than the Rage feature of the barbarian VMC (which, again, I'm picking because it's a VMC that people find on the stronger side for VMC options,) at the cost of a trait, which seems not to be that big a costs (traits are supposed to be less valuable than feats in theory, given that you can get two of them for a single feat.)
I don't know. I think that's all pretty rambly, and perhaps not well thought out as it's just something I'm throwing out here shortly after I wake up in the morning.
@drbuzzard, that looks good! I assume you've used the background skills (probably for crafting,) and aren't using a feat for Power Attack. It's fine to have used the crafting feats for creating the armor and weapon; you would have had easy access to the forge you'd need for it up till now.
For worship, instead of Astri (who I don't think would exist in the Lost Lands,) would you consider Dwerfater?
DWERFATER
Dwerfater appears as an ancient dwarf, whose beard is the color of mithril and touches the ground at his feet. He always wears a blackened leather apron over a coat of mithril mail and always carries his mighty warhammer, Noolhamr.
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good
DOMAINS: Earth, Good, Strength, Creation
SYMBOL: Hammer and anvil.
GARB: Armor of mithril or steel.
FAVORED WEAPONS: Warhammer.
FORM OF WORSHIP & HOLIDAYS:
Priests worship the forge, crafting items of steel and mithril. The most sacred steel is tempered in virgin snow on Orenday, the first full moon after winter.
TYPICAL WORSHIPPERS:
Dwarves.
*edit* Oh, and your weapon focus and weapon specialization would be with the flails weapon group rather than just dwarven dorn-dergar, but that shouldn't change anything for the build, just give you potentially more versatility later.
*second edit* Ah, and you'd get 66 hp instead of 60. I decided I wanted to give frontliners a slight hp boost, so I bumped hp after first level to 7 for d10 class and 9 for d12 classes. I stealth changed that in the build rules on the campaign info page but didn't mention it anywhere else. Hopefully that's not too much of a bother.
I spelled it wrong actually, it's Austri.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/gods-3rd-party-publish ers/gods-frog-god-games/austri
Doesn't really matter which one much to me.
As I'm using Hero Lab and can't figured out how to make the feat rule changes work (could not find a community pack for it, or a place in the community pack that had it), I adapt the old system to deal with just getting the numbers right. For power attack I just gave myself an extra bonus feat to put it in place. If I decide to add another weapon which is in the same weapon group, I'd just add extra feats to cover.
I'll update the HP.
Interesting, Austri there is almost certainly another name for Dwerfater given their almost identical descriptions. It looks like the one that turns up in the Rappan Athuk book which I do own, but haven't read and won't be reading just now for somewhat obvious reasons. In any case, that works just great!
Sounds good for the feats, like I said, they won't matter at this point, but if you do ever get another weapon in the flails weapon group just remember that you have access to them!
I'd say you're good to go at this point unless you have any questions.
Nah, he seems fine as is. He's just a basic tough front liner, but who can craft up goods for the party. He will be able to quickly shift reach once he gets darting viper, which will be nice.
Yeah, Darting Viper will be nice, especially for a fighter without much other need to use swift actions most of the time (unless you've got some cleverness planned for your swift actions!)
Nah, darting viper is about it. Most of the feats will be used to pump defensive stats, and of course the rest of the weapon chain. Might look at picking craft wondrous as well since I have to make sure I get the gloves of dueling.
What level does this one go to anyway? Just curious.
Of course, Lars is going to out-tank me...he always does lol. Needs to change his profile name to Melee-McTankerson.
I'm resigned to Touch of Rage being worthless.
Couple of more questions. ;)
Alternate traits are not allowed for Aasimar.
Are the variant heritages allowed? The Angel Blooded is tailor-made for Paladins +2 Str +2Cha which helps with a MAD build on a 20pt buy.
Is the standard rule of combining magic items in effect? ie 1.5x the of adding the lesser item
For example the cost of:
Belt of constitution +2 combined with Belt of Blinkback = (1.5x4k)+5k= 11k
Will we have the ability to teleport to Bards Gate to purchase items? Or will there be any ability to purchase/have crafted specific items?
To make this paly-multiclass build sing, eventually, he needs a couple of items that are core to his build
belt of might hurling lesser+ Con and Dex belt
Silver smite bracers
Robe of Arcane Heritage to gain earlier access to his BLoodline
and Sharding to his falcata
It looks like this AP may make it difficult to get/craft or purchase specific items integral to some builds. I'm cool with that if that's the case. But it will impact my character choice.
If it's difficult to eventually get those core items I listed above I'd prefer to play my Starknife chucking skillmonkey Masterpiece singing Bard who is not overly reliant on specific items.
except for the blinkback/con belt which he'll come equipped with at the start.
Sorry for all the back and forth on this.. We're almost there :)
@drbuzzard, If we make it to the end we might just get all the way to 20. It's a pretty serious adventure/dungeon crawl towards the end.
@WabbitHuntr, I can live with variant heritages for assimars, sure.
The standard rule for creating items that way is fine, so the blinkback belt of mighty constitution would be 11k. I'll want you to run custom items by me just because the item creation rules can sometimes get unbalanced (which the system acknowledges,) but most of the time it'll likely be fine.
You'll have the ability to travel back to Bard's Gate sometimes. If you want to use teleportation to do that later on it wouldn't take long (as long as you can live with the risk of teleporting occasionally not working as expected before greater teleport of the like,) but even before that if you wanted to take the time to make the 300 mile trip back to Bard's Gate it would be an option. Time would pass which might cause things to change, but perhaps that'll be worth it sometimes?
If you find people you can trust perhaps they can be sent back to Bard's Gate for supplies from time to time? Depending on how much you trust them those supplies could be finished valuable magic items or the parts needed for a party member to craft them (getting sharding on the falcata seems like something Groff would likely be able to help with, at some point, for example.)
I don't think that the Robe of Arcane Heritage would give a VMC sorcerer earlier access to the Bloodline Powers (as those are determined by when you're giving up feats to get them,) but it should make them stronger earlier. Was that what you meant?
The custom item rules are not 'sometimes unbalanced' they are broken as hell. Just my opinion. I don't know that I've seen a case where they've been allowed and not abused.
If there's a strong group sentiment not to want to get into them I'm perfectly willing to go along with that. It'd be easier on my end than looking over every proposed option, but I'm willing to go either way depending on what we want as a group.