Guns and Gears

Probably the coolest name for a book, and exactly what I was hoping for! Cant wait for the link to the playtest itself. HUZZAH

Huh, so gunslinger and totes not artificer/mechanic alchemist?

Great !!!! Thank you Paizo!!!!

Are the classes also out right now? I can't seem to find them

Good catch people.

Alas, my interest plumetted with the mere name of the Classes, even though I saw the first Iron Man just last evening.

I was really hoping for a Class not exclusive to firearms use, but with the Gunslinger name, I have very little hope about this.

I was planning to cajole my PFS GM into playing one of the new Classes' pregen on thursday, but I do not think he will welcome Gunslinger with open arms and Inventor sound too much like a caster / support character at the moment for my taste.

Now, I might be completely amazed by the rules and it might reignite my desire for playtesting these. Who know ? :-)

Are the classes also out right now? I can't seem to find them

They are now on the blog post ;-)

Ohhhhhh yes...

They do mention in the blog post that the Gunslinger isn't exclusive to Firearms and can use Crossbows.

Good catch people.

Alas, my interest plumetted with the mere name of the Classes, even though I saw the first Iron Man just last evening.

I was really hoping for a Class not exclusive to firearms use, but with the Gunslinger name, I have very little hope about this.

I was planning to cajole my PFS GM into playing one of the new Classes' pregen on thursday, but I do not think he will welcome Gunslinger with open arms and Inventor sound too much like a caster / support character at the moment for my taste.

Now, I might be completely amazed by the rules and it might reignite my desire for playtesting these. Who know ? :-)

FWIW, the Gunslinger has crossbows to and the Inventor has a martial chassis, it's not really a support class.

Uncommon Classes actually make a lot of sense IMO.

I'm glad it's posted and we've got official gun rules. Some of the traits are really cool.

But... and I hate to be like a downer... I'm feeling a bit underwhelmed by Gunslinger so far.

I think my biggest positive takeaway so far is that I can probably modify the Drifter class I wrote in a few places and it would still be unique because this is nothing like I expected.

I thought there would be more going on than Guns, and it's definitely Guns top to bottom. Like they say "oh you can use a Crossbow" but like over half the Feats require loaded firearms as a requirement (unless the GM just wants to wave that for Crossbows or I'm missing the text that overrides it).

In addition, they seem pretty complicated and I'm running a bunch of newbs this weekend and I might have to avoid these entirely because they seem pretty complicated.

I am thankful that Paizo put this out nonetheless, but my other non-newb players just aren't very excited about playing the Gunslinger, though we're still reading.

Just started going through Inventor, we'll see if that harbors different feelings.

Hopefully, I feel differently after more thorough reading :)

I thought there would be more going on than Guns, and it's definitely Guns top to bottom. Like they say "oh you can use a Crossbow" but like over half the Feats require loaded firearms as a requirement (unless the GM just wants to wave that for Crossbows or I'm missing the text that overrides it).

There should only be like two feats that only work for firearms and not crossbows (one of them being Cauterize, which like, we just couldn't come up with a way to get a crossbow that hot :P ), so let me know if you see feats that should work with a crossbow as well as a gun but don't, because that might be an error.

Midnightoker wrote:

I thought there would be more going on than Guns, and it's definitely Guns top to bottom. Like they say "oh you can use a Crossbow" but like over half the Feats require loaded firearms as a requirement (unless the GM just wants to wave that for Crossbows or I'm missing the text that overrides it).

There should only be like two feats that only work for firearms and not crossbows (one of them being Cauterize, which like, we just couldn't come up with a way to get a crossbow that hot :P ), so let me know if you see feats that should work with a crossbow as well as a gun but don't, because that might be an error.

Well I would say most of them seem to be intentional or directly relate to the Gun itself:

Firearm Ace, Blast lock (I could see Crossbow working here maybe), Blackpowder Boost, Alchemical Shot, Risky Reload (not necessary for Crossbows), Scatter Blast (requires Scatter so Crossbow is out), and Smoke Curtain.

Admittedly there were a few that I missed the "or crossbow" text, but the above is still 7 Feats exclusive to Guns one way or the other.

So like sure I can use a Crossbow, but it doesn't really seem like a LOT of the Feats work well with that type of situation.

Gunslinger looks pretty close to done as far as a base goes. Similar to MT, though, I'm hoping that final versions can be a bit more expansive. I love the inclusion of trick shots, but I think it feels like the base chassis itself is a little thin on offerings--I think it's that outside of feats, the only thing that makes you different from a fighter is the specific weapon you can use and a special bonus on rolling initiative.

So we'll see where that goes.

That said, I'm glad Gunslinger is coming and I'm absolutely stoked the Inventor is on its way. This should be an absolutely lovely book, especially if it includes a lot of equipment.

Hum, let's see.

Gunslinger:

This seems to be ruined by reloading. Firearm damage doesn't scale with level, and even increased chance of crits is lost when by default you can only make 1-2 attacks per round because of the need to reload. The fact that if your final action isn't to reload then you can't use any reactions is the icing on the cake.

Also, "the previous day" isn't really suitable for non-magical items.

Blast Lock: Aargh! Will you please stop creating class feats that just provide rules for doing things without any explanation for why others cannot do them. This feat implies that any Gunslinger who doesn't choose this feat can't shoot a lock open.

Looney Tunes: "Rebounding Assault": you throw a sword at the opponent then shoot the sword so it bounces back to you. "Black Powder Boost": you run and shoot your gun behind you to speed yourself forward with the recoil. "Deflecting Shot": you shoot someone else's bullet out of the air. "Redirecting shot": you shoot your ally's bullet back onto course! I can't see how these can work without screwing up any serious feel in a battle, especially when juxtaposed with guns, which are classically seen as scary exploding death sticks by fantasy characters.

I just want to state before I enter "Critical AF" mode:

Thank you Michael and Mark for all you do, for generating excitement about a game I love, for giving us all new rules that took a lot of time and effort to produce.

You all are doing great work! Even if I don't agree in some areas :)

I'm really excited both for official firearms as well as a class that plays with mixed melee ranged combat. Also really wanna make eldritch archer work with a sniper rifle now

I'm having a good time with these classes and think they're fun, there's just one part that I'm not sure is intentional:

Reloading Strike is a Melee Strike and then an Interact action to reload. The feat itself doesn't have the manipulate trait, but Interact does. This is kind of important concerning attack of opportunity. Is it intended that Reloading Strike, for a sword-n-gun build, can provoke attacks of opportunities?

Hum, let's see.

Gunslinger:

This seems to be ruined by reloading. Firearm damage doesn't scale with level, and even increased chance of crits is lost when by default you can only make 1-2 attacks per round because of the need to reload. The fact that if your final action isn't to reload then you can't use any reactions is the icing on the cake.

Also, "the previous day" isn't really suitable for non-magical items.

Blast Lock: Aargh! Will you please stop creating class feats that just provide rules for doing things without any explanation for why others cannot do them. This feat implies that any Gunslinger who doesn't choose this feat can't shoot a lock open.

Looney Tunes: "Rebounding Assault": you throw a sword at the opponent then shoot the sword so it bounces back to you. "Black Powder Boost": you run and shoot your gun behind you to speed yourself forward with the recoil. "Deflecting Shot": you shoot someone else's bullet out of the air. "Redirecting shot": you shoot your ally's bullet back onto course! I can't see how these can work without screwing up any serious feel in a battle, especially when juxtaposed with guns, which are classically seen as scary exploding death sticks by fantasy characters.

Why would gun damage scale by level? You add runes to them like any other weapon to scale the damage

Looking through the play test...I was hoping for dedication feats to try multiclassing into.

Are there general rules/customs for doing so, as they've been applied to other classes?

I'm a fan of the Inventor, especially as a support class. Tamper is an interesting new Crafting-based debuff that doesn't use the MAP. Trip, Tamper, and Demoralize enemies?

I'm a little disappointed that there's no support specifically for inventors who want to ride around on (or in!) their Construct. Sure, you can do it, but I'd like to see some feats that bolster that fantasy. Even a level 20 feat that would allow you to treat your construct as your own personal tank (Maybe you gain greater cover while riding your construct?) would be badass.

Looking through the play test...I was hoping for dedication feats to try multiclassing into.

Are there general rules/customs for doing so, as they've been applied to other classes?

None of the recent playtests have included dedication feats. While the exact nature of dedications are important to consider, Paizo probably wants any survey results for the playtest to be focused on ensuring the primary class works and is fun before going through those considerations.

Blast Lock: Aargh! Will you please stop creating class feats that just provide rules for doing things without any explanation for why others cannot do them. This feat implies that any Gunslinger who doesn't choose this feat can't shoot a lock open.

That's not what this feat implies at all. Any character could attempt to physically destroy a lock by shooting it, just like any other object.

This feat just lets you roll against the lock's DC to be picked instead of having to damage it normally.

Hum, let's see.

Gunslinger:

This seems to be ruined by reloading. Firearm damage doesn't scale with level, and even increased chance of crits is lost when by default you can only make 1-2 attacks per round because of the need to reload. The fact that if your final action isn't to reload then you can't use any reactions is the icing on the cake.

Also, "the previous day" isn't really suitable for non-magical items.

Blast Lock: Aargh! Will you please stop creating class feats that just provide rules for doing things without any explanation for why others cannot do them. This feat implies that any Gunslinger who doesn't choose this feat can't shoot a lock open.

Looney Tunes: "Rebounding Assault": you throw a sword at the opponent then shoot the sword so it bounces back to you. "Black Powder Boost": you run and shoot your gun behind you to speed yourself forward with the recoil. "Deflecting Shot": you shoot someone else's bullet out of the air. "Redirecting shot": you shoot your ally's bullet back onto course! I can't see how these can work without screwing up any serious feel in a battle, especially when juxtaposed with guns, which are classically seen as scary exploding death sticks by fantasy characters.

Add to the Looney Tunes list, Instant Return, where if an enemy shoots at you an misses, you can GRAB THE BULLET OUT OF THE AIR, shove it into your gun, and FIRE BACK.

I actually have no problem with these, but I do find them kind of funny and I KNOW a lot of people who will be upset by them.

Time to build the best TF2 Soldier I can using these rules! (not really though)

Any character could attempt to physically destroy a lock by shooting it, just like any other object.

Now if there was actually any rules to do so... :P

Midnightoker wrote:

I thought there would be more going on than Guns, and it's definitely Guns top to bottom. Like they say "oh you can use a Crossbow" but like over half the Feats require loaded firearms as a requirement (unless the GM just wants to wave that for Crossbows or I'm missing the text that overrides it).

There should only be like two feats that only work for firearms and not crossbows (one of them being Cauterize, which like, we just couldn't come up with a way to get a crossbow that hot :P ), so let me know if you see feats that should work with a crossbow as well as a gun but don't, because that might be an error.

So is there any chance to extend the "and also crossbows" to "and also slings"?

I feel like slings have been underserved to the point that you can't really make a sling-based hero without constantly feeling "well if I just switched it to a crossbow and left the rest of the build the same, it'd be strong" (or thrown-Returning weapon, or..)

But I think the sling-carrying hero has a lot of potential. The whole mysterious stranger Western vibe works pretty well with a sling too. And it gives options for people who maybe don't want gunpowder in their fantasy, but also want more than only crossbows as a choice.

And it seems like this is the moment when it's relatively easy to achieve mechanically.

Please please please for a spellcasting/gun shooting Artificer class with a homunculus option.

If not for nothing, I'd really, really, REALLY like the PFS people to give us an indication of what direction they're planning to go with this book for organized play.

I understand we probably WON'T get anything until like a week after it's actually released, but I'd sure like a provisional "we're leaning this way" on it.

Re:
Uncommon classes - Open to play, have to buy a boon, other?
Guns period - Only for Gunslingers, Available by regional origin, have to buy a boon?
and so on.

+1 on slings. Throwing knives too. Also melee only gunslingers.

If not for nothing, I'd really, really, REALLY like the PFS people to give us an indication of what direction they're planning to go with this book for organized play.

I understand we probably WON'T get anything until like a week after it's actually released, but I'd sure like a provisional "we're leaning this way" on it.

Re:
Uncommon classes - Open to play, have to buy a boon, other?
Guns period - Only for Gunslingers, Available by regional origin, have to buy a boon?
and so on.

This is a convo Thursty and I have been having and one that actually has some answers baked into the core design of Guns & Gears, right up to how we structure the book. I'll let Thursty and Linda convey any final decisions when they get made, but the sidebar right at the start of the playtest that tells you all of the regions on Golarion that give access to gunslingers and inventors is something I wrote specifically in case PFS needed it.

(can we in that case get Numeria added to that region list? Mostly because I'd imagine that Numerian techslingers and people trying to build their own robots would be gunslingers and inventors as well rather than an another new class?)

Looks good so far. Can't wait for the book.
And now I have a reason to adapt the stand-in for guns of another RPG to Pathfinder^^